Official Stage Discussion

[Sandfall]

I thought Peach's Castle Melee was cut for the 64 version?

Nope, Peach's Castle: Melee was replaced by Bowser's Castle.

 

[GFooChombey]

Nope, Peach's Castle: Melee was replaced by Bowser's Castle.

In terms of music, wouldn't it make more sense if those were flip-flopped? Mario Kart music would match a little bit better on Peach's Castle than Bowser's.

 

[Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm]

Feels more like Bowser's Castle would fit best with Luigi's Mansion, and Rainbow Cruise with Mario Kart.

This type of thing is why I feel limiting alt stages to two per slot is a strange decision; not sure if this is official but I heard someone say Luigi's Mansion doesn't have an alt so they have more room for more stages, but you're already cutting stages due to the two slot rule (and nothing else in Rainbow Cruise's case) even though there are more spaces within those two slots and you have the means to do more than two per stage.

I share the sentiment of a person who asked earlier in the thread, is three slots per stage really that cluttered? I mean, I see it like this (not drawn to proportion):

It doesn't seem like it'd be that cluttered, the only thing that isn't completely tight is where the stage's series logo would be, but maybe you could just put that inside the "main" stage image.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Feels more like Bowser's Castle would fit best with Luigi's Mansion, and Rainbow Cruise with Mario Kart.

This type of thing is why I feel limiting alt stages to two per slot is a strange decision; not sure if this is official but I heard someone say Luigi's Mansion doesn't have an alt so they have more room for more stages, but you're already cutting stages due to the two slot rule (and nothing else in Rainbow Cruise's case) even though there are more spaces within those two slots and you have the means to do more than two per stage.

I share the sentiment of a person who asked earlier in the thread, is three slots per stage really that cluttered? I mean, I see it like this (not drawn to proportion):

It doesn't seem like it'd be that cluttered, the only thing that isn't completely tight is where the stage's series logo would be, but maybe you could just put that inside the "main" stage image.

Yeah. I talked about the potential of having two alts before, and I completely agree with you. Someone mentioned that R changes pages so they didn't want to do R+A. However, I don't think that R really is needed for page changing. It only saves a couple of seconds compared to just hitting the next page button, and I didn't even know it was a thing until someone pointed it out.

 

[GFooChombey]

I love R to change pages. It's one of my favorite "little things" that the PMDT has added.

 

[Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm]

Yeah. I talked about the potential of having two alts before, and I completely agree with you. Someone mentioned that R changes pages so they didn't want to do R+A. However, I don't think that R really is needed for page changing. It only saves a couple of seconds compared to just hitting the next page button, and I didn't even know it was a thing until someone pointed it out.

Right, I also agree with that. Is Z used for anything on the stage menu? If it isn't, you could either make it L+A and Z+A, or change the page turner to Z and then use R+A.

 

[Sandfall]

In terms of music, wouldn't it make more sense if those were flip-flopped? Mario Kart music would match a little bit better on Peach's Castle than Bowser's.

Mario kart music is fine on that slot. It may not be ideal, but there are some songs that fit quite well (better than they would with peach's castle, at least). Also, rainbow cruise's music fits quite well with the new Peach's Castle.

Right, I also agree with that. Is Z used for anything on the stage menu? If it isn't, you could either make it L+A and Z+A, or change the page turner to Z and then use R+A.

Z clears stage strikes. We're not assigning multiple functions to one button, sorry.

 

[Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm]

Hmm, well there's also the D-Pad. Since the L button used to turn pages before it was moved exclusively to the R button, would it be a stretch to change the page turner to left and right on the D-Pad?

This just feels like too large a thing to go to waste for the sake of being able to turn pages without moving the cursor, when you need to move the cursor to select the stage anyway. If we can keep both features in that'd be a plus because of people that do use it, which is why the D-Pad might be a possibility, but I personally think being able to keep stages in is a better feature than the page turner.

 

[Player -0]

Eh, I guess the stage preview and font aren't going to be reverted then. Are they going to be cleaned up at least? It doesn't look that good currently in my opinion.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

I love R to change pages. It's one of my favorite "little things" that the PMDT has added.

Would you rather have more stages or something that save you a couple of seconds when changing the page? I'm not sure why they're so stubborn about not changing such an inconsequential input.

 

[Nefnoj]

Would you rather have more stages or something that save you a couple of seconds when changing the page? I'm not sure why they're so stubborn about not changing such an inconsequential input.

TWO SECONDS CAN SAVE A LIFE.

I'll bet it's more than that... As far as I know, each alternate stage has the same theme, music, etc. That means that they would have to find a way to make three stages fit the same everything ever. With two stages, that's butts easy, for three, they'd have to be more creative.

But now that I think of the potential... You're probably right.

 

[Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm]

Well they're already putting Peach's Castle 64 and 64 HD on Rainbow Cruise's stages so there wouldn't be any difference by adding Rainbow Cruise back in since the music would be the same anyway. I can agree that if they want to be careful about what stages have good synergy it'd be a bit difficult to use three stages in more than a few places, but they shouldn't rule it out entirely when there are cases that can work, like the aforementioned Rainbow Cruise/Peach's Castle 64.

How do you think Metal Cavern would fit with Bowser's Castle? I feel Metal Cavern's music isn't entirely fitting already, but if they changed that music to something else, do you think Metal Cavern and Bowser's Castle have a similar enough vibe to fit together? Just speculation.

 

[JCOnyx]

One of the explanations I heard about them not wanting to put 2 extra slots on stages is the previews would become extremely small and near unidentifiable at some point. You've got to remember the image quality they're working with when they're making stage previews.

 

[nimigoha]

The one thing that is unfortunate about the ASL images is how that little tab was the perfect spot to put the Starter/Counter text. Doesn't obscure the picture.

Although to be fair, I think that the text is more or less redundant if you have the Green/Yellow outline down below.

It could also be less intrusive than massive text if you had the outline on the picture as well. Really up to whoever creates the pack but I think it would be a pretty nice alternative.

 

[Sandfall]

Just remember guys that you'll be able to customize ASL to your heart's content when 3.6 drops. If you're missing a favorite stage, you will always be able to put it back!

 

[Llama Juice]

To continue on @ Sandfall 's point...

Everyone wants something different in the stages. There is no perfect stagelist for us to give the fans. The best we can do is provide a ton of quality content and give you guys the tools to be able to tweak the stages in the way that you want to. If you want Rainbow Cruise back, then remove one of the Peach's Castle stages and toss is back in that slot.

That's one of the best things about Project M in my opinion. Our community openly appreciates people modifying the tournament legal game, as long as they leave the tournament stuff alone. People at the weekly I go to always get interested when someone brings a setup with a bunch of weird stuff on it, as long as it's still a tourney legal build.

 

[Nefnoj]

Would there be a chance that stages not receiving an alternate stage to have a slot for us to do so ourselves? Like a template, of sorts?

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

To continue on @ Sandfall 's point...

Everyone wants something different in the stages. There is no perfect stagelist for us to give the fans. The best we can do is provide a ton of quality content and give you guys the tools to be able to tweak the stages in the way that you want to. If you want Rainbow Cruise back, then remove one of the Peach's Castle stages and toss is back in that slot.

That's one of the best things about Project M in my opinion. Our community openly appreciates people modifying the tournament legal game, as long as they leave the tournament stuff alone. People at the weekly I go to always get interested when someone brings a setup with a bunch of weird stuff on it, as long as it's still a tourney legal build.

There's just something nice about having it be official. Playing PM the way it was intended. I guess that seems odd when talking about a modded game, but still. Also, what about those who don't want to get rid of other stages just to get a new one?

 

[Sandfall]

There's just something nice about having it be official. Playing PM the way it was intended. I guess that seems odd when talking about a modded game, but still. Also, what about those who don't want to get rid of other stages just to get a new one?

You can just add your own ASL Slots or replace the original 64 stages

 

[GFooChombey]

Would you rather have more stages or something that save you a couple of seconds when changing the page? I'm not sure why they're so stubborn about not changing such an inconsequential input.

Quality over quantity. I'd rather have a clean looking SSS, the ability to change pages with R, and stage striking than a stage that I played in Melee, Brawl, and early builds of PM. It's not that I don't like that stage, but it's still in 2 other games and easily added. Just have faith that the stage expansion will be optimized and the team will bring back plenty of stages.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Quality over quantity. I'd rather have a clean looking SSS, the ability to change pages with R, and stage striking than a stage that I played in Melee, Brawl, and early builds of PM. It's not that I don't like that stage, but it's still in 2 other games and easily added. Just have faith that the stage expansion will be optimized and the team will bring back plenty of stages.

The only thing you'd really lose is switching pages with R. Whatever though. Opinions.

I'm just thinking about the future when they may want to add stages from new series, particularly for a new character. They want alts to have a similar theme, so they'd end up having to get rid of another stage to make room for it. PM wants to seem legit, and removing content takes away from that. Also, the argument that I can use the stages in other games isn't that great since I'd like to use those stages with the mechanics and characters of PM.

 

[GFooChombey]

The only thing you'd really lose is switching pages with R. Whatever though. Opinions.

I'm just thinking about the future when they may want to add stages from new series, particularly for a new character. They want alts to have a similar theme, so they'd end up having to get rid of another stage to make room for it. PM wants to seem legit, and removing content takes away from that. Also, the argument that I can use the stages in other games isn't that great since I'd like to use those stages with the mechanics and characters of PM.

But then we'd run the risk of a janky looking SSS and lower quality stage previews. Remember that Project M is still in development and for all intents and purposes is a very serious demo. For every update I've been around for, stuff has been removed whether it was a stage or attack. Hell, I'm still sad we don't have the greyish white pokemon colors from vBrawl, but you gotta think about the end man.

If it's a deal breaker, just learn to customize your build. Nobody will criticize you for something like this especially with the amount of terrible custom content out there.

 

[Comeback Kid]

I miss the stage too but I don't expect them to rework the entire concept for the 3.6 stage select (which looks great) and how it functions just to make room for one or two exceptions.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Z clears stage strikes. We're not assigning multiple functions to one button, sorry.

Z would actually be perfect since there shouldn't be any concern of these two functions getting in each other's way. With R, you might accidentally change the page first and select the wrong stage. With X/Y you might accidentally strike the stage first and now you have to clear them before you can pick it. But Z won't disrupt you having your cursor already over the stage you want, doesn't matter if you press it a frame early and wipe strikes.

Alternatively, would it be possible to condense Y's strike-all-stages-not-on-Random-Select function to just be X while Random is highlighted or while no stage is highlighted? Dunno if that's doable, but if it is then there's a button freed up for you.

Anyway, if I may change the subject a bit, do we know if Flat Zone 2 already has a planned alt? If not, I'd like to propose a version that takes out all transformations/hazards/platforms leaving just a flat walkoff stage. FZ2's tiny size (I think it's the smallest in the game, correct me if I'm wrong) and nothing you can tech off of makes it so great for type 3 stamina shenanigans, but of course I'd rather play a no-frills version. Basically think of it as a tiny walkoff-FD.

 

[Nefnoj]

Z would actually be perfect since there shouldn't be any concern of these two functions getting in each other's way. With R, you might accidentally change the page first and select the wrong stage. With X/Y you might accidentally strike the stage first and now you have to clear them before you can pick it. But Z won't disrupt you having your cursor already over the stage you want, doesn't matter if you press it a frame early and wipe strikes.

Alternatively, would it be possible to condense Y's strike-all-stages-not-on-Random-Select function to just be X while Random is highlighted or while no stage is highlighted? Dunno if that's doable, but if it is then there's a button freed up for you.

Anyway, if I may change the subject a bit, do we know if Flat Zone 2 already has a planned alt? If not, I'd like to propose a version that takes out all transformations/hazards/platforms leaving just a flat walkoff stage. FZ2's tiny size (I think it's the smallest in the game, correct me if I'm wrong) and nothing you can tech off of makes it so great for type 3 stamina shenanigans, but of course I'd rather play a no-frills version. Basically think of it as a tiny walkoff-FD.

I'd personally want a Flat Zone 1, or maybe make Flat Zone 2 and alt for Flat Zone 1, but that's just me.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I'm assuming FZ1 probably isn't doable since there are a lot of limitations on modding dynamic elements and hazards. It'd certainly be cool if it was.

 

[Draco_The]

Well, the spike hitbox would work for the stuff that's falling in the stage.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

FZ2 would be pretty cool if they can get it to work. I always wondered why they didn't include it in Brawl. It's certainly one of the most chaotic stages in Sm4sh, and can be tons of wacky fun.

 

[himemiya]

I'd personally want a Flat Zone 1, or maybe make Flat Zone 2 and alt for Flat Zone 1, but that's just me.

Or have this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUk6FTQYH8

 

[Nefnoj]

Or have this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUk6FTQYH8

Neat, pretty, but bland.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Or have this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUk6FTQYH8

I think a stage layout like this would be interesting for the game. It looks like it favours edgeguards based on the platform layout being such that it blocks projectiles from the outside of the stage and characters can intercept a character's recovery going high on the stage if they positioned themselves properly. However, not a knock against it but it's a little open (a lot of proposed stage lists had a lot of open stages like PS2, SV, WW, and GHZ), and a little big(?). I don't think the openness would ever be a problem but the blastzones could be tweeked (maybe?) to give the game more small stages (we have more mid-large and large stages than we do mid-small and small stages; seems to be the consensus). I'm personally not a fan of the scenery because I don't really like GnW, but it's definitely not bad. At least I can recognize that much. And I can definitely recognize that this a good neutral stage that I'm sure a lot of other people would either have wished for in the past or welcome as a stage after seeing this.

 

[Rᴏb]

Or have this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUk6FTQYH8

I'm definitely in favor of this. It needs to be touched up though, it isn't as clean looking as Flat Zone 2.

 

[Sandfall]

Since we're talking about Flat Zone anyway, I figured I'd change the topic to it

While Flat Zone will remain untouched for 3.6, it has a high probability of being revamped in the future. What did you like or dislike about Melee's and Brawl's Flat Zone stages? What would you like to see in a future iteration of the stage? Any favorite Game and Watch games?

 

[nimigoha]

I think Flat Zone has a lot of character, and I'd be saddened to see it reduced to a 'competitive' stage just for the sake of it. I know with ASL you could basically pull a GHZ on it but there are more than enough competitively balanced stages, and I'd love to see the continuation of casual content being pumped out. Personally I'd rather have the revamp focused on making it even more hectic, or with more transformations, than just 'give it a platform layout and cut everything'. If the time could be found then both would be pretty cool of course.

 

[flintconfirmed]

Or have this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUk6FTQYH8

Heck yeah exactly what i was gonna say.
G&W needs more love!
If people like hazards though, my vote goes for FZ1. It's more hectic, but more stable.
2's screen changes make it weird.

 

[Nefnoj]

In my opinion, the chef and the oil people are a bit too strong, it's fun to kill the chef.
In other words; chef + oil people op plz nerf
As a casual, I honestly wouldn't mind if you couldn't include the falling tools, should you add Flat Zone 1.
The platforms in Flat Zone 2, are they completely random? It'd be nice if they were more predictable, or if there was something to indicate them relocating.
Also moar easter eggs in that stage.
If you guys did a Hanenbow/Infinite Glacier revamp I would die happy, though I have no clue what you'd do. It'd be funny if you guys made it not a walk-off simply by zooming the camera out: Walking out of the game would send you out of the side of the system, plummeting towards your doom. Of course, to do that, you'd have to make the camera not-so fixed, which might harm the random elements of the stage.

 

[GFooChombey]

Casually I like FZ2 just the way it is. I don't think it needs anything to be changed and we certainly don't need it reworked to be competitive. I'd love to see FZ1 come back as an alt in the future.

 

[JcFerggy]

My major gripe with Flatzone 1/2 is the close blast line combined with the walk off edges. If you could do what was done in Smash 4's Omega version and get rid of the Game & Watch handheld overlay, but keep the gimmicks of the stage (Maybe reduce the damage/knockback of hazards), then I would have no real issues with the stage.

 

[Comeback Kid]

You can never have too many competitive-styled stages, I hate it when people claim otherwise as if casual players don't use them just as much. But it's not like Flatzone could ever be that even if some of the overpowered elements were reduced a little and like the above poster said remove the handheld border.

Whether or not people argue more about what stages are worth using because of so many good stages being available is irrelevant to good stage design. Keep making cool stages that are fun which I never found vanilla Flatzone to be.

 

[GFooChombey]

You can never have too many competitive-styled stages.

In 20XX, every stage is legal and the starter is decided with a 1-2-3-4-3-2-1 strike system. Winner gets 30 bans.