Official Stage Discussion

[Star ☆]

Sunset Green Hill Zone has been made in the past by my dear friend @ Noserus

Check it out, also along with Sky Sanctuary Zone.

 

[Noserus]

Sunset Green Hill Zone has been made in the past by my dear friend @ Noserus

Check it out, also along with Sky Sanctuary Zone.

That other alternate appearance for Green Hill Zone will be done as well, once I figure out what's causing everything to be in black and white. If I learn how to apply gradients I'll make that sky look a little better too. There's something about Green Hill Zone that makes it very pleasant to mod.

 

[Rᴏb]

My biggest gripe with GHZ is how easily it lags with my custom content.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I've been complaining about the boxy main stage since the beginning, so I'm really glad that it finally got fixed. It looks so much nicer and not completely unnatural now, whoever did it is a bro.

It's still a terrible stage, though.
GHZ is currently a symptom of the Minus-esque approach to stage balance, which will hopefully continue to weaken in influence. Its pointlessly extreme size dominates its identity: It's really small and its sides are way too close.
Not that there's much to overshadow; GHZ's platform is functional (and a really good representation of the source series), but it doesn't do anything that other stages' don't. It's pretty much just a mix between PS2's small isolated platforms and SV's wandering one, contributing nothing new despite the stage offering nothing else. GHZ as it is doesn't add anything to the game, so it should be changed into something that does.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

I've been complaining about the boxy main stage since the beginning, so I'm really glad that it finally got fixed. It looks so much nicer and not completely unnatural now, whoever did it is a bro.

It's still a terrible stage, though.
GHZ is currently a symptom of the Minus-esque approach to stage balance, which will hopefully continue to weaken in influence. Its pointlessly extreme size dominates its identity: It's really small and its sides are way too close.
Not that there's much to overshadow; GHZ's platform is functional (and a really good representation of the source series), but it doesn't do anything that other stages' don't. It's pretty much just a mix between PS2's small isolated platforms and SV's wandering one, contributing nothing new despite the stage offering nothing else. GHZ as it is doesn't add anything to the game, so it should be changed into something that does.

There really aren't any other platforms that function like the one in GHZ though. The SV platform is only similar in that it moves, but they move in completely different ways. Instead of moving from side to side in a straight line it swing back and forth, up and down. It also doesn't go off stage or beyonf the screen like the SV platform.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Doing less than SV's platform doesn't mean it's original. It still has the same effect on gameplay: it intermittently drifts into the vicinity of the characters then quickly leaves, serving as a convenient route to escape or land, or occasionally approach. Going up and down doesn't change that, it just means that it's only relevant on a portion of the stage, which is a property PS2's layout already supplies. Being a high side-platform infrequently allows interesting off-stage interactions, but WL/RF's layouts also allow this and so much more.

In a subgenre defined by its diverse stages, such redundancy is ridiculous. A single platform cobbled-together from concepts already present in more-elementary stages is not enough for GHZ's entire identity to hinge upon, lest we also consider a stage thats only feature is a strictly-vertically moving platform, or two SV-like platforms, or PS2 platforms except one is higher, etc. worthwhile additions.

 

[PlateProp]

Sunset GHZ needs to be official, or pmdt needs to do it themselves

It just looks too damn good to not be in ;-;

 

[Xermo]

Still waiting on your ironclad, original stage design solution to a non-existent problem.
Simply saying it possesses qualities shared between multiple stages doesn't mean it plays the same as them (also it doesn't, it's far more differing from ps2 and sv than what the tri-platform stages all offer). The smaller size already forces a far different approach to engaging the opponent. "Pointlessly extreme size" is a personal complaint and not a detriment to it's design; not like all stages need to be universally equal in general blastzone size. It's boxed so recovery options increase. Even the nature of the swing doesn't just make it a smashville platform, it alters vertical positioning to such an extent that you give up stage control during the high arc and the low arc sets up nicely for hit strings.

Also, hello, SV doesn't have a patent on moving platforms. It isn't even the first stage to do so.

 

[CND]

Recent posts about GHZ's platform reminded me that it might be a good idea to mention that it does seem to have some projectile issues. I have to check which are affected, but I know with Lucario if you use aura spheres or most notably an Aura Bomb as the platform is rising up in the right side it will stay parallel with the platform as long as it is over the platform, but once it passes the platform it will teleport to the height it was released at.

Edit: So I just checked this quickly. It seems that some other projectiles might behave similarly but I don't think any are as nearly apparent as aura speres and aura bombs. Also, it is a known bug.

 

[Star ☆]

Sunset GHZ needs to be official, or pmdt needs to do it themselves

It just looks too damn good to not be in ;-;

I wouldn't mind it having a day-night cycle. Or different times of day based on your Wii clock time like Smashville. The latter sounds difficult though as I'm not sure if they can make Brawl read multiple Green Hill Zone files based on the time like Smashville does.

 

[GFooChombey]

I'm not sure if I agree with changing the time of day or anything. I quite like it the way it is. Maybe they could add a few easter eggs or background stuff to make it fresh.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Ask and ye shall receive

Example Zone Act One​

On the right we have a simple ramp, the reverse of most other sloped edges. This makes recovery an especially treacherous procedure, as riding the wall is vulnerable against long-ranged attacks that can clip through the floor. The raised collisions provide the edgeguarder with cover against incoming projectiles, and of course require recovering higher. Recovering high is further encouraged by the chance to reach the swing and bypass the ramp altogether, as even if one manages to grab the ledge, the increased difficulty of ledgedashing makes getting off of it another enhanced trial. This same effect also makes edgehogging a bit easier. The ramp does benefit off-stage characters in at least one way, though, by directing shorter-ranged, grounded attacks upward.

On the other side is a crumbling cliff, utilizing the asset from Brawl's GHZ. Its (non)existence manifests the effects of a wider stage with closer sides or vice versa, but (through its destruction and respawn) in a way that actually involves the players and creates elements of risk in exchange for its rewards.
The left is no kinder to recoveries, particularly when the cliff is up, as one might be hit from closer to the blastzone, followed by the opponent moving one's figurative goalpost farther in. The opportunity to walljump is also more distant here (even if the cliff stays up), as is the option of landing on the swing (even if the cliff is down). The short segment of jump-through floor requires extra precision when ledgedashing, and while it does give one a safer option of staying below so the ground blocks direct assault, it means any hitboxes one might need cannot avoid striking the cliff, guaranteeing hitlag and the possibility of one pulling the rug out from under oneself.

Above that is magical floating dirt, which imitates the behavior characteristic of the Sonic universe.

Yields to weight, then falls a moment later.​

While it does provide an alternate route for those stuck on the cliff (one which could lead to the swing, then back to the center) and an extra place to tech, it's only truly available when quick rebound is possible. Landing on the platform with long lag is hardly different than landing straight on the stage, and could even be deadly if the cliff's not there to catch. Teching carries even greater drawbacks, shortening the distance gained from an inward roll and automatically taking an outward one off stage.

Both sides have their own dangers, making the more advantageous position subjective and situational (as ideally goes for the stage as an option). Hence players are even more eager to vie for the center, which increases the likelihood of the swing coming into play, as well as the sacrifice of fleeing on it. The swing's peak position is also not always as remote, as one has the higher ground at either end of the stage to jump from, but doing so does mean being at the end of the stage.
Overall, this redesign has a nice assortment of unique, flavorful elements, combined in an even uniquer way to introduce a variety of new, complex situations, satisfying the premise of our genre and turning GHZ into more than a one-line analogy. In doing so, it would free up a space on the bottom row to be filled with something more fundamental and truly distinct from the other occupants.

Special Stage: Endless concepts​

 

[GFooChombey]

That might be the single most thought out post in this thread. I love those ideas especially using the crumbling floor on the edge, but a cave of life like that needs something to push you out like the giant beams on Spear Pillar.

 

[Mc.Rad]

That might be the single most thought out post in this thread. I love those ideas especially using the crumbling floor on the edge, but a cave of life like that needs something to push you out like the giant beams on Spear Pillar.

Yeah I agree...

But...

Spear Pillar is trash

 

[Nefnoj]

Yeah I agree...

But...

Spear Pillar is trash

Heheheh, your signature in correspondence to that post...

The only problem with Spear Pillar is that dang Cresselia. She hates everything good.

 

[Sandfall]

New stage discussion!

This time, we'll be discussing an old competitive favorite. This one has been with us since the original Smash Bros, and even got a new look in 3.5:

Dreamland!

 

[Nefnoj]

Green Greens as an alt?

Maybe the background could be changed, but it's pretty perfect as it is.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Not too much to say. It's another Battlefield type of stage, and it's good for what it is. I like how the wind effect helps separate it from other staged of its type. Can't think of much else to say, and it's already pretty loved.

Green Greens would make a great alt for it. I see no reason why not to make it the alt.

 

[GFooChombey]

I really like Dreamland even though it's essentially a large Battlefield clone. It's one of the few legal stages that has some spice left (in this case the wind) and I love getting to play on the HD remakes. Changing anything mechanically is a horrible idea since the stage has been used in every game except Brawl so I'll only address aesthetics.

I love the visuals of this stage. I don't know if anybody has noticed, but a lot of the art direction was inspired from Return to Dreamland, such as the detailed leaves, and it really makes the stage seem legitimate. At first I wasn't keen on just copying the background from Green Greens, but I changed my mind once I realized a custom HD background would have essentially looked the same. The Scarfy is pretty awesome even if I do miss the Bronto Burts. All of that said, I do have one criticism. Most people have been silenced, but I still don't like the warp star against the tree. Even if I know it's not a usable item, I think something like a pile of apples would be less distracting. That's it though. My only visual complaint.

Speaking of Green Greens, I would also like to see the stage return, but I have one concern. The different Whispy designs, especially when both stages share the same background, would really bother me. I know that's super nitpicky, but I believe consistency is the way to legitimacy. If the stage is returned, could it be reskinned to match the textures of HD DL?

 

[GP&B]

The ceiling is too damn high.

Good stage otherwise.

 

[Nefnoj]

I love the visuals of this stage. I don't know if anybody has noticed, but a lot of the art direction was inspired from Return to Dreamland, such as the detailed leaves, and it really makes the stage seem legitimate. At first I wasn't keen on just copying the background from Green Greens, but I changed my mind once I realized a custom HD background would have essentially looked the same. The Scarfy is pretty awesome even if I do miss the Bronto Burts. All of that said, I do have one criticism. Most people have been silenced, but I still don't like the warp star against the tree. Even if I know it's not a usable item, I think something like a pile of apples would be less distracting. That's it though. My only visual complaint.

What about an HD-ified sleeping Adeline or Crystal, to represent the N64 era?

Speaking of Green Greens, I would also like to see the stage return, but I have one concern. The different Whispy designs, especially when both stages share the same background, would really bother me. I know that's super nitpicky, but I believe consistency is the way to legitimacy. If the stage is returned, could it be reskinned to match the textures of HD DL?

I, too, am a big consistancy fan. I think if they changed the background, even just the textures on it, the different Whispy designs wouldn't be too bad - completely different or completely identical, haha. In the meanwhile, I just like to pretend that Green Green Whispy is just a few years later than the Dream Land Whispy or a different season or something, haha.

 

[CND]

It is a fine stage. Visually, I think the only thing that bothers me is that the rainbow seems too short or something. It seems to be lacking presence since the tree covers most of it which kind of feels like it cuts the rainbow in half by opacity. Also, I think it feels like it doesn't end at the grass so I expect to see it continue under the stage. I think curving the rainbow out towards the right might help that and give it a little more visual weight. Then maybe extending it vertically and/or slowing the falloff.

 

[Rᴏb]

Definitely onE of the best looking stages in the game. My nitpicks are that I think the platforms look too thick, the Scarfy in the background looks like it's having a stroke- replace it with a Bronto Burt pls, and the grass and dirt under the grass should be made a bit less saturated.

Unfortunately I feel like this stage has to competitive use now that Delfino Secret is a thing.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Ah, a nostalgic classic, and I love the beautiful remastering. However, it is Ridley-sized, and even as a floaty main I can't disagree with it being replaced in most competitive rulesets. I'll miss it, but it's for the best. At least there's always friendlies.

 

[Nefnoj]

However, it is Ridley-sized,

That's not a bad thing... Right? I've always preferred the bigger stages.

 

[mimgrim]

Actual stage is fine.

Blaszones and ceiling could be made to be a little bit smaller/shorter if PMDT were willing.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

I've never had any problems with the blast zones, and I think it's nice to have some stages with wider blasts zones. Besides, I really don't think they should mess around with a stage that has already been competitively established in so many games.

 

[_Chrome]

Dreamland is a nice stage and all, but I just want to clarify that it probably shouldn't be a starter or counterpick stage. I know Umbreon's standard list doesn't include it (and that's the one most people agree on), I'm just expressing this because my local scene has people considering it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I've never had any problems with the blast zones, and I think it's nice to have some stages with wider blasts zones. Besides, I really don't think they should mess around with a stage that has already been competitively established in so many games.

Dreamland's properties are not consistent between games. I'm given to understand that SSB4's Dreamland is more reminiscent of 64's Dreamland in terms of size/layout/blast zones, while Melee's (and thus PM's) iteration is slightly larger and has the infamously high ceiling.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I feel like Dreamland is the Typhoid Mary of the toxic stage philosophy wrought from Melee having to make due with stages never intended for competition. It should never, ever be legal, and the fact that I sometimes still see it used makes me believe that it should be moved to the top row — or even the second page — out of children's reach.
While I could come up with cool ideas that might make it worthwhile, I think its identity is so firmly ingrained in the franchise (especially its most egregious attributes, despite what Smash 4 might think) that anything significant enough to fix its issues would have to be considered a whole new stage, not a tweak of an old.

The HD looks pretty, though. But it's kinda lost on me as I've always felt DL was the 64 stage with the most charm — the one that visually stood the best against time.

 

[himemiya]

I personally think they should delete the n64 ver (all 64 vers while where at it) and be more creative by using a completely diffrent skin for dreamland and said hd vers as alts.

 

[JOE!]

Can we use the 64 blastzones plz?

Melee: 250 units tall, 255 units from center, -123 units to floor

64: 180 units tall, 235 units from center on left , 210 units from center on right, -123 units to floor.

Its kind of astounding how it swapped from a REALLY low ceiling to the tallest lol.

Averaged out between the two:

215 tall (still tallest), 238.75 sides, -123 floor

Next biggest would be delfino:

211.25 tall, 235 sides, -154.5 floor

 

[nimigoha]

Keep old DL as exact Melee DL.

Bring in the blastzones and kill Whispy on the HD stage.

 

[Nefnoj]

kill Whispy

Otherwise, it's just another Battlefield. Normally, I'd suggest it as an alt, but Green Greens deserves that spot.

 

[GFooChombey]

Can we use the 64 blastzones plz?

Melee: 250 units tall, 255 units from center, -123 units to floor

64: 180 units tall, 235 units from center on left , 210 units from center on right, -123 units to floor.

Its kind of astounding how it swapped from a REALLY low ceiling to the tallest lol.

Averaged out between the two:

215 tall (still tallest), 238.75 sides, -123 floor

Next biggest would be delfino:

211.25 tall, 235 sides, -154.5 floor

I always wondered why Melee did that to the stage, but at this point the stage has been established. I think it's best left as is. Though I'm a firm believer that all other 64 blast zones should match their originals.

Bring in the blastzones and kill Whispy on the HD stage.

That's what Battlefield is for.

 

[Nefnoj]

I always wondered why Melee did that to the stage, but at this point the stage has been established. I think it's best left as is. Though I'm a firm believer that all other 64 blast zones should match their originals.

Wait - are you saying that the 64 version should have the 64 blast zones, while the remastered one has Melee blast zones?

You're a genius, Mr. Chombey.

 

[GFooChombey]

Wait - are you saying that the 64 version should have the 64 blast zones, while the remastered one has Melee blast zones?

You're a genius, Mr. Chombey.

Totally not what I was going for... but thanks!

 

[ilysm]

*pops head into a thread i neither regularly visit nor productively contribute to* green greens is a cute and excellent stage and should absolutely be in as an alt for DL

*peace sign* i'm out again

 

[Mc.Rad]

I personally think they should delete the n64 ver (all 64 vers while where at it) and be more creative by using a completely diffrent skin for dreamland and said hd vers as alts.

There are map stage switches to other buttons tho

 

[A6stringthing (A6ST)]

Has it been suggested that 64 versions be (Z)ecret alts and then Have HD as the orginals, and someting new as an L alt? We all win that way. I like the Idea of creating a hybrid of the N64 blast zones, and Melee ones for DL, but for reasons never quite explained, (Because Melee) I doubt that will happen. To be fair though, PM is its own game, and deserves some individualism.