Official Stage Discussion

[nimigoha]

I'm looking forward to its inclusion in more stagelists.

The only thing that might make people still hesitant is the raised Bowser crest but it's really not a huge deal.

Hopefully it's put somewhere in the bottom two rows so people take it more seriously!

 

[JCOnyx]

The crest is what makes the stage honestly, otherwise it's competitive layout alone with it's blastzones wouldn't warrant being used over the other stages. PM legal stagelist is far too abundant with flat stages, some minor slopes would be very welcomed in my opinion.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

What's up dudes.

So, at first I wasn't keen on having the "legal alt" for bowsers. The thought being, if we have a legal alt, then nobody is ever going to play my thwompy version, and that's unfortunate. However, the only time that I personally play Project M is at various tournaments... and so that means that the only time I ever saw Bowser's Castle being played was when I'm up against someone that will no doubt beat me in bracket. Flip the match to a more casual lolfun setting instead of me just getting pummled. (I'm an artist, not a playtester. My job is to make the game pretty, not balance it )

So, after only seeing Bowser's Castle get played maybe 8 times during the 3.6 beta we decided to include the competitive version. My thoughts were that I had spent a huge amount of time on this stage, and that it's unfortunate that the competitive crowd doesn't get to utilize that at all.

There was a lot of discussion behind the scenes on where we should put the stages... should the thwompy version be on the alt? Should the legal version be on the alt? We were pretty split on it, and so we ended up adding the legal as the alt. With our next release these will most likely be switched around though for Random Stage Select purposes and consistency with a lot of the other stages.

So, all of that out of the way... My favorite custom stages?
When I first started out in this community I saw that the majority of stages that people were posting on the Brawl Vault were just reskins of Brawl/Melee/N64 stages.... and I thought that was pretty lame. I wasn't as competitive back then, so I didn't really understand the reasoning behind it at the time, but I just figured that I want to have more new experiences in the game, rather than just the same gameplay but with a different picture behind it. So that's why I started working on Golden Sun: Venus Lighthouse, and that's why I made the layout the way that it is. It's a pretty damn unique layout and it has some super fun moments when you're both trying to spike each other down the pit that opens up in the middle, and then the spiked player tries to walljump his way back out before it closes on him. Stuff like that I thought was super neat. It's casual as all hell, but I thought it was a really fun mechanic. Plus, I play Ivysaur, and that stage was designed and tweaked around that super unfairly. I've nicknamed that stage "Ivysaur's Playground." The stage was my first stage that I had created, and it shows though... with the slanted walls being where the gameplay takes place... it causes a lot of issues with players not quite knowing where the ledges are. It'd take a decent amount of work to get that stage to a proper level to have it up to the quality bar that we want in the PMDT.

I don't mean to toot my own horn here, but my other favorite stage would be thwompy bowser's castle. Again, I wanted new gameplay experiences... and the way that thwomp creates tension while still being a "fair" hazard makes it for a fun stage to play on. That paired with the idea that the center point of the stage can shift during battle is just interesting to me. The idea that stage control can shift slightly based on part of the map disappearing is interesting to me. It's just a fun stage, and I mean... I poured everything I had into creating it, so it holds a super special place in my heart. I just wish that we could have gotten everything into that stage that we wanted to do. There was a few neat elements that didn't fully get implemented, or got straight up cut out due to framerate issues.... and so that's unfortunate.

TL;DR: Bowser's Castle legal alt will most likely be in the main slot in our next release. It was made so that all of the work that went into Bowser's Castle's art would actually have a chance to be appreciated. My own custom stages, Venus Lighthouse and Bowser's Castle are my two favorite custom stages.

I'll still use the stage a lot even if it is an alt. It's pretty dope.

 

[_Chrome]

The original Bowser's Castle is my absolute favourite casual stage and I'll play on it no matter where it goes. Seeing the neutral version go to the bottom two rows would make me ecstatic though, because the artwork is astounding, really. The slightly different tri-plat layout coupled with the artwork and music is breathtaking and intese to play on, all the while being incredibly fun! All we need now is for the music list to be updated outside of it's one good track (which I f*cking love by the way).

 

[Llama Juice]

The only thing that might make people still hesitant is the raised Bowser crest but it's really not a huge deal.

The slightly raised crest was done in a way that was to try to have a minimal impact on gameplay, while still being there. I made the slope shallow enough so that it shouldn't interrupt any movement or projectiles. Originally it was shaped to fit the crest perfectly, but that was obviously awkward in gameplay to constantly be tripping on it, and it also would stop a handful of projectiles. I had to find a nice balance with Ivysaur's razor leaf especially since it's such a big projectile. If the slope was any steeper than it is, her leaf would just stop when hitting the crest or outer ring. Now it does a fun little bounce upwards which lets Ivy use the stage's different spaces in a bit more of an interesting way.

To me, it's predictable, easily learned, and doesn't interrupt anything from what I can tell. It's subtle enough while still existing, and so it only adds to the small depth of the stage... which is a good thing.

 

[Nefnoj]

I just remembered a custom stage that I accidentally made:
I was messing around with Brawlbox and created a version of WarioWare where the main stage area wouldn't vanish during microgames. It was very fun for gameplay! Haven't been able to figure out how though, and I've lost the file since.

 

[Sandfall]

I just remembered a custom stage that I accidentally made:
I was messing around with Brawlbox and created a version of WarioWare where the main stage area wouldn't vanish during microgames. It was very fun for gameplay! Haven't been able to figure out how though, and I've lost the file since.

You should be able to accomplish something like that by placing the stage model in modeldata[101] and unbinding the collisions for the stage from the bone. Remember to replace the old modeldata that had the main stage with a static model so that he game doesn't freeze.

 

[Tiberious]

What's up dudes.

So, at first I wasn't keen on having the "legal alt" for bowsers. The thought being, if we have a legal alt, then nobody is ever going to play my thwompy version, and that's unfortunate. However, the only time that I personally play Project M is at various tournaments... and so that means that the only time I ever saw Bowser's Castle being played was when I'm up against someone that will no doubt beat me in bracket. Flip the match to a more casual lolfun setting instead of me just getting pummled. (I'm an artist, not a playtester. My job is to make the game pretty, not balance it )

So, after only seeing Bowser's Castle get played maybe 8 times during the 3.6 beta we decided to include the competitive version. My thoughts were that I had spent a huge amount of time on this stage, and that it's unfortunate that the competitive crowd doesn't get to utilize that at all.

There was a lot of discussion behind the scenes on where we should put the stages... should the thwompy version be on the alt? Should the legal version be on the alt? We were pretty split on it, and so we ended up adding the legal as the alt. With our next release these will most likely be switched around though for Random Stage Select purposes and consistency with a lot of the other stages.

So, all of that out of the way... My favorite custom stages?
When I first started out in this community I saw that the majority of stages that people were posting on the Brawl Vault were just reskins of Brawl/Melee/N64 stages.... and I thought that was pretty lame. I wasn't as competitive back then, so I didn't really understand the reasoning behind it at the time, but I just figured that I want to have more new experiences in the game, rather than just the same gameplay but with a different picture behind it. So that's why I started working on Golden Sun: Venus Lighthouse, and that's why I made the layout the way that it is. It's a pretty damn unique layout and it has some super fun moments when you're both trying to spike each other down the pit that opens up in the middle, and then the spiked player tries to walljump his way back out before it closes on him. Stuff like that I thought was super neat. It's casual as all hell, but I thought it was a really fun mechanic. Plus, I play Ivysaur, and that stage was designed and tweaked around that super unfairly. I've nicknamed that stage "Ivysaur's Playground." The stage was my first stage that I had created, and it shows though... with the slanted walls being where the gameplay takes place... it causes a lot of issues with players not quite knowing where the ledges are. It'd take a decent amount of work to get that stage to a proper level to have it up to the quality bar that we want in the PMDT.

I don't mean to toot my own horn here, but my other favorite stage would be thwompy bowser's castle. Again, I wanted new gameplay experiences... and the way that thwomp creates tension while still being a "fair" hazard makes it for a fun stage to play on. That paired with the idea that the center point of the stage can shift during battle is just interesting to me. The idea that stage control can shift slightly based on part of the map disappearing is interesting to me. It's just a fun stage, and I mean... I poured everything I had into creating it, so it holds a super special place in my heart. I just wish that we could have gotten everything into that stage that we wanted to do. There was a few neat elements that didn't fully get implemented, or got straight up cut out due to framerate issues.... and so that's unfortunate.

TL;DR: Bowser's Castle legal alt will most likely be in the main slot in our next release. It was made so that all of the work that went into Bowser's Castle's art would actually have a chance to be appreciated. My own custom stages, Venus Lighthouse and Bowser's Castle are my two favorite custom stages.

My main two issues with 'Thwompy Castle' have to do with the Thwomps and the platforms under them.

It's smart to have the Thwomps have hitboxes when just hanging in the air. It's not so fun to lose a stock instantly when they drop because they're both solid and have a spike hitbox. Changing their solidity when they drop and making being under it a strong 45 degree launch toward that side's blast linemakes being under them dangerous, but also survivable at lower damage.

The second issue lies with the fact that the platforms are a solid ceiling underneath. Since you can't grab edges as easily, get caught under them, and it's another case of "You dead. Thanks for playing".


Those two things keep me from playing on it.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I love the Thwomps!! It's like, "NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NOOO!" "AHHHHHHHH!" XD

I always get into uncontrollable fits of laughter when I die and I always hype it up when I dunk someone.

Plus it's great when your friends get into K9-esque spouts of rage :D

I'd still liked to have at least one platform in the center of the stage though. It'd make fighting more dynamic outside of the thwomps. Stage is kind of barren when thwomps are missing.

 

[_Chrome]

Sometimes it's more like DP-esque or KiraFlaxian fits of rage. I don't mind it being barren in the middle when the thwomps are gone (it's kinda fitting to the dreadful nature of the stage), but it certainly wouldn't hurt that much, and might make gameplay more interactive.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't want it to get cloggy: plus, thematically it matches being barren not just because it's dreadful but also because of the nature of the boss battle against Bowser in the old games with a singular platform IIRC and then the lava. But it does need a little more oomph imo.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Don't mean to double post, but uh... Thread's not really that active and I'd like to bring attention (hopefully I'm not repeating myself) to a super cool stage that's getting pretty popular in Australia and stuff like that. Sky Sanctuary Zone @Star . Neutral stage that fills a good role in the game. :D

 

[GFooChombey]

My main two issues with 'Thwompy Castle' have to do with the Thwomps and the platforms under them.

It's smart to have the Thwomps have hitboxes when just hanging in the air. It's not so fun to lose a stock instantly when they drop because they're both solid and have a spike hitbox. Changing their solidity when they drop and making being under it a strong 45 degree launch toward that side's blast linemakes being under them dangerous, but also survivable at lower damage.

The second issue lies with the fact that the platforms are a solid ceiling underneath. Since you can't grab edges as easily, get caught under them, and it's another case of "You dead. Thanks for playing".


Those two things keep me from playing on it.

Have you ever been crushed by a thwomp?

 

[Llama Juice]

My main two issues with 'Thwompy Castle' have to do with the Thwomps and the platforms under them........

So, a big problem here was that this stage was one of the first stages to have entirely custom hazards. With that comes some limitations. The thwomps aren't actually typically what kills you. It's the platform dropping down into the blastzone super quick that does the work. The thwomp of course gets a solid assist for the kill, but most of the time it's you just sitting on that platform and letting it carry you off the stage into doom town.

As far as the platforms not allowing players to pass through the bottom of them... that's because it looked super janky if someone was holding ledge when the platforms were there.... and there wasn't a clean solution for having the ledge be grabbable or not depending on if the bricks were there. If I just tried to hide a grab point when it wasn't in use, it would mess up tether recoveries... so it got setup the way it is now.

It's always fun to kill someone else with the thwomp, it's sometimes not fun to be killed by the thwomp. That's just how it'll go.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Should I be the one to make the obligatory art Tuesday post?

 

[GFooChombey]

Should I be the one to make the obligatory art Tuesday post?

I had a feeling it was just coincidence the last few weeks.. but llamajuice pretty much confirmed no art today.

But hey, since our current topic has died down, I mentioned a missing texture on Melee Battlefield a while ago and here's a picture to better explain what I was talking about. Notice the rim of the stage becomes solid stripes in the center.

Edit: I also looked more at the platform transparencies and it seems characters can never be seen through it like in Melee. Was that intentional? I know you are able to create semi transparent object i.e. Jigglypuff's fairy wings.

 

[Sandfall]

So, a big problem here was that this stage was one of the first stages to have entirely custom hazards. With that comes some limitations. The thwomps aren't actually typically what kills you. It's the platform dropping down into the blastzone super quick that does the work. The thwomp of course gets a solid assist for the kill, but most of the time it's you just sitting on that platform and letting it carry you off the stage into doom town.

I actually changed it so the thwomp does also push you down as well. Otherwise, you could escape it by jumping in time.

I had a feeling it was just coincidence the last few weeks.. but llamajuice pretty much confirmed no art today.

But hey, since our current topic has died down, I mentioned a missing texture on Melee Battlefield a while ago and here's a picture to better explain what I was talking about. Notice the rim of the stage becomes solid stripes in the center.

Edit: I also looked more at the platform transparencies and it seems characters can never be seen through it like in Melee. Was that intentional? I know you are able to create semi transparent object i.e. Jigglypuff's fairy wings.

I probably goofed when I reimported the model

 

[flintconfirmed]

I'm going to have to switch bowsers alt every release now.

I think the legal alt is bland.
Edit: my bad, I mean competitively viable alt.

You can only have so many legal stages. If you add more, it starts to break the meta. I'm all for PM having all unique stagelists and content. But you will alienate the competitive scene if you impede too much.

This is an unpopular opinion, I think, but it's similar to 2d Mario vs 3d Mario. If you change what the game is too much, it's not going to capture the previous market. But if you don't change it enough, it won't gain a larger demographic.

 

[nimigoha]

I'm going to have to switch bowsers alt every release now.

I think the legal alt is bland.

You can only have so many legal stages. If you add more, it starts to break the meta. I'm all for PM having all unique stagelists and content. But you will alienate the competitive scene if you impede too much.

This is an unpopular opinion, I think, but it's similar to 2d Mario vs 3d Mario. If you change what the game is too much, it's not going to capture the previous market. But if you don't change it enough, it won't gain a larger demographic.

Lmao what.

How will the competitive PM scene be alienated by PMDT making competitive BC the default and Thwomp BC the alt stage?

How is adding more options breaking the meta? PMDT should push out as many different competitive stages as they can, and then the community can build the best stagelist out of them.

What is the previous market vs larger demographic argument? Are you talking about Melee players, Brawl players, or current PM players?

What?

 

[GFooChombey]

So are we done talking about specific stages now? Has this become a general stage thread?

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

So are we done talking about specific stages now? Has this become a general stage thread?

Well, there hasn't been a new topic in a while.

 

[flintconfirmed]

Lmao what.

How will the competitive PM scene be alienated by PMDT making competitive BC the default and Thwomp BC the alt stage?

How is adding more options breaking the meta? PMDT should push out as many different competitive stages as they can, and then the community can build the best stagelist out of them.

What is the previous market vs larger demographic argument? Are you talking about Melee players, Brawl players, or current PM players?

What?

You misunderstand my post. Legal stages are the current set of stages allowed for play at tournaments. It's not likely anyone will add to that pool, as increasing that number would alter the metagame of stage picking. It is possible to replace with competitively viable stages without changing that metagame, adding viable stages would obviously not break anything. My point was that simply adding a viable stage will not force it to become legal, and that increasing the legal stage pool could alienate some of their primary demographic.

My short statement about the market is relevant more to the direction of game design the PMDev Team decides to take, which includes stage design.

I'm terribly sorry if I was not clear enough.

 

[nimigoha]

"My point was that simply adding a viable stage will not force it to become legal"

No, adding a viable stage and the community discussing its merits for inclusion will make it adopted as a legal stage.

"and that increasing the legal stage pool could alienate some of their primary demographic."

I still don't see how this makes any sense. No one is saying that we need to include all "viable" stages to the tournament ruleset. We're saying that by increasing our pool potential picks we'll have more options to choose from to create the best possible tournament ruleset.

 

[flintconfirmed]

"My point was that simply adding a viable stage will not force it to become legal"

No, adding a viable stage and the community discussing its merits for inclusion will make it adopted as a legal stage.

"and that increasing the legal stage pool could alienate some of their primary demographic."

I still don't see how this makes any sense. No one is saying that we need to include all "viable" stages to the tournament ruleset. We're saying that by increasing our pool potential picks we'll have more options to choose from to create the best possible tournament ruleset.

Well now I'm failing to understand your disagreement. It seems to me that we both understand how things work.

 

[_Chrome]

PM Art Tuesdays not happening over the past little while has been explained, guys...

http://projectmgame.com/

 

[Sandfall]

Hey guys. To answer GFooChombey 's question, this will now be a general stage discussion thread.

Thanks everyone for participating in all the discussions! You all helped make Project M a better game.

 

[Llama Juice]

I don't really frequent Smashboards much, but this thread has been pretty much my home here.

Love you dudes, thanks for all the help and inspiration over the years.

 

[GFooChombey]

Llama Juice Sandfall
Thank you for everything you've done. Your work is very awesome and I've loved reading your posts about it. I'll miss this.

 

[Llama Juice]

I'll miss this too man, so very much. The joy and excitement that you all brought to me and the rest of the team can never be properly expressed. We all had a very special developer/"customer" relationship that was amazing on both ends.

 

[Star ☆]

Okay guys with all this discussion about universal stagelists and whatnot I think it's time for me to plug a certain stage once more.

Sky Sanctuary Zone
Modeled and textured by @Noserus
Input on stage layout and blastzones by yours truly. I also credit SOJ who provided advice on how the blastzones should be altered.

Spoiler: Screenshot of Stage (Please watch the video, it looks much better ingame)

Spoiler: Preview Video

Spoiler: Sydney's Current Stagelist (WL Singles only, DP Doubles Only)

Spoiler: Technical Data

Stagesize is slightly smaller than that of PS2.
Blastzones are 225 Width and 196 Height. Almost equivalent to that of Lylat Cruise.
All walls on the side are Walljump-able and you can ride up the slanted wall.

This stage was merged into Sydney's stagelist as a trial back in August of this year, replacing Yoshi's Island (Brawl) as many players in our region disliked that stage for the slanted floor and ledges. We added Sky Sanctuary Zone as it received wonderful feedback from top players in our region and also we wanted to show off the creative talent of @Noserus who is a local in our scene. The trial ended and we decided to keep the stage in our stagelist after overwhelming positive feedback.

As a result, this stage has become a staple counterpick in many sets, which you can see on my YouTube Channel (currently uploading some more videos at the time of this post) and is a favoured stage for some characters such as Sonic, Captain Falcon and Snake.

The slanted platforms are what usually turns people off this stage initially at first glance but heavy testing has shown to us that they allow for dynamic recovery mixups and advanced wavelanding techniques. This adds a new dimension to the stage and solidifies it as a unique counterpick, differentiating it from stages with similar layouts such as Pokemon Stadium 2. As I stated in the technical data, this stage has similar blastzones to that of Lylat Cruise, which fills up an empty space commonly found in blastzone ratios, which adds another element to this stage as a unique counterpick.

This stage is in the process of being legalised in Melbourne, another region in Australia, as well and I encourage you all to give it a try and consider it for legality in your own region.

You can download the stage HERE and it is also available in the netplay build, as the Z Alternate Stage for Green Hill Zone.

I hope you all give this a look over. Thanks everyone.

 

[DD_]

Daym SSZ is hella tight. +1

 

[Lex__]

I love this stage, but I feel the screenshots dont really portray how the stage actually looks, please watch one of the videos before casting judgement on its appearance.

e.g.

 

[Star ☆]

I love this stage, but I feel the screenshots dont really portray how the stage actually looks, please watch one of the videos before casting judgement on its appearance.

Fixed it up, thanks man.

 

[DMG]

Looks decent but stages not included in Vanilla PM are not likely to be considered for a universal stage list recommendation.

 

[Star ☆]

Looks decent but stages not included in Vanilla PM are not likely to be considered for a universal stage list recommendation.

Some regions use addons to swap Bowser's Castle to the competitive version and reorganise the stagelist. I also recall a custom tournament build released in 3.02 days that included the new Norfair and that was implemented at tournaments.

I can understand the reluctance to having to spread a tournament build in regions but with proper organisation it is not that strenuous. It has been standardised in two regions of Australia thus far after months of testing.

I wrote this is the recommended stage list thread. I do not think it is worth discounting the possibility of a better stage list due to not being able to organise the distribution of a tournament build.

 

[flintconfirmed]

sorry for being ridiculous

 

[SprayPaint]

Pretty cool, but I feel like it's missing something. I think what it needs is just one small or medium-sized platform right in the middle. Right now it's essentially just FD with the sides occasionally getting hit, looks cool but doesn't actually play all that different really. Turning it into a 1 platform stage would be a good way to make it feel more unique, and wouldn't be anything like the other 1 plat stages we currently have (Metal Cavern being small and oddly shaped, Yoshi's Island having an extra wide platform that tilts, and Smashville moving).

It seems very similar to Bridge of Eldin. Just instead of the middle being destroyed, it's the sides. I would prefer the layout of bridge of eldin because it feels like it has more space. When the sides are removed you feel like there is a lack of freedom to move. But there being a Bowser's Castle stage is cool enough for me.

 

[Kulty]

Guys,

I'm a bit confused. What are the most common accepted tournament legal stages (I include starters and counterpicks) in Project M 3.6? I think that each region is different in terms of stage choices, but I want to know what are the most accepted ones? Give me a list of starter stages and a list of counterpicks...

 

[Sandfall]

Guys,

I'm a bit confused. What are the most common accepted tournament legal stages (I include starters and counterpicks) in Project M 3.6? I think that each region is different in terms of stage choices, but I want to know what are the most accepted ones? Give me a list of starter stages and a list of counterpicks...

Starters:
Spear Pillar
Infinite Glacier
Peach's Castle HD
Bowser's Castle (Thwomps)

Counter picks:
Mute City
Great Bay
Pokéfloats


For real though, I believe this is the thread you're looking for:
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-recommended-ruleset.396408/

 

[GFooChombey]

tfw the counterpicks don't exist in PM