Official Stage Discussion

[Sandfall]

New stage discussion: Rumble Falls!

This one received some changes in 3.5. It's actually slightly smaller this time around!

 

[GP&B]

I haven't played on it since 3.5's release. I'm curious now: were the side blastzones left the same or was the whole stage reduced in size? I felt RF always needed somewhat wider blastzones.

 

[GFooChombey]

I think this stage is highly overlooked especially in doubles. Even though it's a little smaller, I think doubles is still the best use. I do, however, highly enjoy playing single there either way. I especially like recovering from under the stage with characters who can. I would love to see that used competitively. I think more people would play it if all the platforms were curved instead of having the one different one, but I like that variation.

As for a casual opinion, I think it'd be neat to place the spike somewhere under the stage to punish people who flub a recovery and could lead to fun off stage punishes.

And now for the inevitable aesthetic opinion.. I like that the stage slowly traverses up the waterfall, but the lack of detail while rising is hard to un-notice. I think it would be nice to throw some references to the waterfall level from DKC3. I don't remember what it's called, but I have memories of it.
The top of the waterfall looks nice, but what if we mixed in some assets from Melee's Kongo Jungle? Background or even textures on the platforms, I think that would be a nice touch.

 

[himemiya]

I do love rumble falls.

 

[SunJester]

The stage layout is nice, its never going to be used for singles, but its a really fun stage for doubles and FFA's.

I like how you added the scrolling back into the stage, however its over so quickly (IIRC less than a minute). Maybe you could scroll a bit, then stop, then scroll again, and then stop, and then scroll again? Stopping on cool parts of the background and eventually coming to rest way above the falls at like the 6 minute mark. I'm not sure if that's possible, but it would make for a more dynamic background.

Another aesthetic issue I have with the stage is, it doesn't really look like a "Donkey Kong Stage" to me. This might be because I've never played Jungle Beat (or whatever its from) but it really doesn't look like a Donkey Kong stage to me. Perhaps now that Jungle Japes isn't in the game anymore, you can re-use assets from that to re-make Rumble Falls into a better looking stage? (unless you're planning on using the jungle japes assets on HD Kongo Jungle, if you're making that). I don't dislike the way the stage looks, its just kinda plain.

I'm not too sure how much you can do with it gameplay wise. I think the curved surfaces make a really unique stage, and I'd like to see them stay. it's just genuinely a fun stage to play on, which is why any complaints I have are purely aesthetic.

 

[Cubelarooso]

My opinion on Rumble Falls is the same as for many other stages:
It has excessively extreme proportions. Its sides are too close and it's still super wide. The latter is alright for doubles, but tourneys never put much consideration into customizing the doubles stagelist.
Brawl's version has some stuff which I think could be interesting, competitive elements. It's already not starter material, so it might as well use everything that technical limitations allow, especially by being asymmetric. The buttons in particular could be neat.
I'll make a mockup of something cool later.

I also don't think it seems too Donkey Kongey, but I also didn't play Jungle Beat.

 

[Scatz]

Damn. Wish I was in here earlier. Oh well.

Rumble Falls is a legit doubles stage imo. The downsizing has given the stage it's own flavor. Aesthetically, maybe seeing Diddy or DK Barrel his way up to the top? Something to add to the slow rise during the match.

Also, what's up with the lone platform being straight on the left side? Never understood that.

 

[himemiya]

Damn. Wish I was in here earlier. Oh well.

Rumble Falls is a legit doubles stage imo. The downsizing has given the stage it's own flavor. Aesthetically, maybe seeing Diddy or DK Barrel his way up to the top? Something to add to the slow rise during the match.

Also, what's up with the lone platform being straight on the left side? Never understood that.

To have a original platform layout clearly, if that one platform wasn't bent then it would just be a bigger version of battlefield.

 

[Scatz]

That's not the case because the platform layout isn't even similar to Battlefields.

 

[indio]

I really love rumble falls. DK Jungle beat being one of my favorite games ever. Im always asking about this stage to be used, at least in doubles. But i always get the same "its to big" "lol you can recover from under the stage" response.

 

[Player -0]

Covering options, how to do. They must suck if the opponent can go far enough below the edgeguarder to not get hit but stay high enough to recover. Then punishing isn't always but is still most of the time easy if you position correctly.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Covering options, how to do. They must suck if the opponent can go far enough below the edgeguarder to not get hit but stay high enough to recover. Then punishing isn't always but is still most of the time easy if you position correctly.

But it means the stage allows varied tactics and encourages ingenuity, which is apparently bad and not the point of stage variety.

 

[Player -0]

Which means... #BANNED!

 

[Leafeon]

Rumble Falls is great for doubles.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Frankly, if it's banned despite being one of the controversial "legalizing" edits, I don't see the point of it being there at all.

Nobody actually plays doubles, after all.

 

[GFooChombey]

Frankly, if it's banned despite being one of the controversial "legalizing" edits, I don't see the point of it being there at all.

Nobody actually plays doubles, after all.

Because it's miles better than vRumble Falls. I've yet to meet someone in person who liked that stage.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Because it's miles better than vRumble Falls. I've yet to meet someone in person who liked that stage.

Me too, and I've yet to meet someone in person who likes Rumble Falls M, either. It's not legal, so competitive players hate it, and it's basically an inverted Battlefield, so casual players hate it.

I think we're better off either balancing it to legality or replacing it with an entirely new Donkey Kong stage of some kind altogether to appeal to one crowd or the other. Because right now, it appeals to neither. It's just... there.

 

[Xermo]

Me too, and I've yet to meet someone in person who likes Rumble Falls M, either. It's not legal, so competitive players hate it, and it's basically an inverted Battlefield, so casual players hate it.

I think we're better off either balancing it to legality or replacing it with an entirely new Donkey Kong stage of some kind altogether to appeal to one crowd or the other. Because right now, it appeals to neither. It's just... there.

"Nobody plays doubles, why is that mode even in the game."
"I don't know anyone who likes the stage cuz it's usually banned."
"Let's just replace it for mass appeal because I don't like it."

 

[Player -0]

OKAY. THAT BATTLEFIELD LOOKS PRETTY GOOD. THe HYPE WAS TOO REAL THOUGH SO I COULDN:T EVEN LOOK

 

[Nefnoj]

Professional casual here: I like the stage structure, but something exciting would be nice. Like... Something exciting.

Because it's miles better than vRumble Falls. I've yet to meet someone in person who liked that stage.

I don't hate it, is that close enough?

 

[MegaMissingno]

Me too, and I've yet to meet someone in person who likes Rumble Falls M, either.

I like it.

Anyway, should we discuss everything shown in the new 3.6 trailer? Bowser's Castle, HD Saffron, HD Peach's Castle, and Dracula's reskinned as Delfino's Secret. And a new alternate stage loader, they showed Brawl Summit, Brawl Green Hill Zone, and 64 Dream Land. I'm guessing all the old Brawl and 64 stages will be in there, so I guess you're getting your wish if you wanted Brawl Rumble Falls.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Okay, bear with me because this is a lot of stuff. Try to take every element on its own even though there's some reasoning for putting them together, as each could still be interesting by itself. I just couldn't stop jamming things into it.
First and most importantly: Side blastzones farther from the ledge. There's just no reason for them to be so jank.
The stage width is alright for a "doubles stage," but that's rarely a thing where I am so I'd personally prefer if it were more appropriate for singles.
But anyway,

A Rumble Falls mock-up

​

Spoiler: What IS that!?

The Falls​

Far off to the left is the eponymous waterfall, the centerpiece of the stage (not literally, ofc). The rushing water acts as a windbox, pushing players downward without damage. I specifically depict it where the current stupid-close blastzone is, to mock anyone who'd be upset that they're falling rather than dead or that their opponent is falling rather than not-falling.

The bridge​

Because symmetry is dumb and suppresses variety. The uneven sides cause a dilemma: The left side is flatter and lower, making it simpler to navigate and safer for most characters; but the right has the curve and is away from the waterfall, so you can tech off the floor longer and have more distance to survive. The favorable position is ambiguous, situational, and dependent on players' skills, which I think is vital for a well-designed stage.

The Zinger​

The third most recognizable family of the DK series, after the Kongs and Kremlins. The waterfall and the jump-through floor gives disproportionate value to vertical recoveries, so this guy is here to take some away. Flies back and forth under the rock, so it can be avoided with timing, but that still makes one predictable. Of course, one could try to ledge-tech it for an extended recovery.

The winky eye​

Changed a bit to so it's less like the center platform. The lowered sides somewhat compensate for it being so high and out-of-the-way, and just generally make it less safe, so it's less useful for camping.

The open eye​

It's log. A solid platform for camping and teching. Located on the side that makes it higher so that it's less likely to get in the way.

The Cling Cobra​

Slithers around the log to hit campers and techers. Its presence means one can't just stand on/wall cling to the log and force punishable approaches. Its movement makes DI'ing to tech the log or hitting the opponent into the snake require some extra skill, with a possible penalty for failure.

The switch​

You hit it and a thing happens. Placed so to maximize ease of hitting-on-purpose and not-hitting-on-accident, but there might be somewhere better. In general, I think hittable stage elements should usually be affected by the hit's damage when possible, to compensate for the hitlag and to make up for the fact that higher-damaging characters are usually slower and thus can have a harder time taking full advantage of a stage. In this case I guess that would mean how long the switch stays pressed, or maybe how long it takes to fully activate.

The thing that happens​

Hitting the switch mixes the platforms up, because I'm super-paranoid about camping. Anyone standing on the right platform gets pulled down to single-jump height (the side flaps flip upwards to something else new since hanging down no longer serves a purpose), anyone floating above the right platform gets an unpleasant surprise below them, and anyone floating above the left platform gets the rug pulled out from under them.

Looking back at it, Brawl's Rumble Falls has a lot of neat stuff. I couldn't even find a place here for the disappearing platforms or breakable terrain, but I kinda think this is too much already. It also has an interesting variety of platform models, giving it the look of an untamed wild with traces of exploration from several civilizations across history.
Maybe a bunch of different platform layouts could scroll vertically into the play area, with the main stage staying static. But then there's the question of what happens to the platforms when they pass below; it'd probably need to have a solid main platform to obscure that detail and keep people from hanging out down there. Plus DC (DS now) already has a similar idea.
If RF is intentionally designed as a doubles stage, it shouldn't have many moving parts. Regardless, I think the Falls and the bridge would be pretty sweet and uncontentious. Still not distinctly Donkey Kong, though.

 

[Nefnoj]

Okay, bear with me because this is a lot of stuff. Try to take every element on its own even though there's some reasoning for putting them together, as each could still be interesting by itself. I just couldn't stop jamming things into it.
First and most importantly: Side blastzones farther from the ledge. There's just no reason for them to be so jank.
The stage width is alright for a "doubles stage," but that's rarely a thing where I am so I'd personally prefer if it were more appropriate for singles.
But anyway,

A Rumble Falls mock-up

​

Spoiler: What IS that!?

The Falls​

Far off to the left is the eponymous waterfall, the centerpiece of the stage (not literally, ofc). The rushing water acts as a windbox, pushing players downward without damage. I specifically depict it where the current stupid-close blastzone is, to mock anyone who'd be upset that they're falling rather than dead or that their opponent is falling rather than not-falling.

The bridge​

Because symmetry is dumb and suppresses variety. The uneven sides cause a dilemma: The left side is straighter and lower, making it simpler to navigate and safer for most characters; but the right has the curve and is away from the waterfall, so you can tech off the floor longer and have more distance to survive. The favorable position is ambiguous, situational, and dependent on players' skills, which I think is vital for a well-designed stage.

The Zinger​

The third most recognizable family of the DK series, after the Kongs and Kremlins. The waterfall and the jump-through floor gives disproportionate value to vertical recoveries, so this guy is here to take some away. Flies back and forth under the rock, so it can be avoided with timing, but that still makes one predictable. Of course, one could try to ledge-tech it for an extended recovery.

The winky eye​

Changed a bit to so it's less like the center platform. The lowered sides somewhat compensate for it being so high and out-of-the-way, and just generally make it less safe, so it's less useful for camping.

The open eye​

It's log. A solid platform for camping and teching. Located on the side that makes it higher so that it's less likely to get in the way.

The Cling Cobra​

Slithers around the log to hit campers and techers. Its presence means one can't just stand on/wall cling to the log and force punishable approaches. Its movement makes DI'ing to tech the log or hitting the opponent into the snake require some extra skill, with a possible penalty for failure.

The switch​

You hit it and a thing happens. Placed so to maximize ease of hitting-on-purpose and not-hitting-on-accident, but there might be somewhere better. In general, I think hittable stage elements should usually be affected by the hit's damage when possible, to compensate for the hitlag and to make up for the fact that higher-damage characters are usually slower and thus can have a harder time taking full advantage of a stage. In this case I guess that would mean the how long the switch stays pressed, or maybe how long it takes to fully activate.

The thing that happens​

Hitting the switch mixes the platforms up, because I'm super-paranoid about camping. Anyone standing on the right platform gets pulled down to single-jump height (the side flaps flip upwards to something else new since hanging down no longer serves a purpose), anyone floating above the right platform gets an unpleasant surprise below them, and anyone floating above the left platform gets the rug pulled out from under them.

Looking back at it, Brawl's Rumble Falls has a lot of neat stuff. I couldn't even find a place here for the disappearing platforms or breakable terrain, but I kinda think this is too much already. It also has an interesting variety of platform models, giving it the look of an untamed wild with traces of exploration from several civilizations across history.
Maybe a bunch of different platform layouts could scroll vertically into the play area, with the main stage staying static. But then there's the question of what happens to the platforms when they pass below; it'd probably need to have a solid main platform to obscure that detail and keep people from hanging out down there. Plus DC (DS now) already has a similar idea.
If RF is intentionally designed as a doubles stage, it shouldn't have many moving parts. Regardless, I think the Falls and the bridge would be pretty sweet and uncontentious. Still not distinctly Donkey Kong, though.

This is the greatest brilliant idea ever (I love your mock ups, especially since I can't read lol)
However, I feel like there's too much or too little symmetry to the design.
Temple, for instance, has no symmetry, almost as if it's going to the right. But a stage like Kongo Jungle has perfect symmetry. I feel like there should either be no symmetry or perfect symmetry, so that players have a balanced sense of direction and easy navigation. Otherwise, players get a little lost and overwhelmed. Your proposal looks to me like it's just in that awkward no symmetry area. I could be wrong though.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I'm fine with platform asymmetry, but making the main platform sloped presents a big concern: where would you put the spawn points so that it's fair?

 

[Cubelarooso]

Ability to navigate is part of the skill of a stage and a reason to pick it: if you're better at it than your opponent, that's part of being better at the game.
A stage could definitely end up universally feeling lopsided, though. That's a half-aesthetic problem to be fixed by someone who understands visual balance and how to make things not-ugly. I haven't actually tried this idea at all though, so I dunno how it feels.
Also, Kongo Jungle isn't symmetric. The middle platforms go up on one side and down on the other.


In a four-stock match in a game all about movement, spawning point really has a negligible effect, especially if both points present pros and cons. It's never been a problem in Smash before, at least.
Plus since Brawl spawns characters randomly and PM has the instant-reset and this is clearly not a starter, we could easily create a "loser chooses spawns" rule for anyone who cares that much. This isn't so feasible in doubles, but there are also twice as many stocks making it even more negligible.
Maybe in the future, a "choose spawn position with cstick" code would be possible.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I like it.

Anyway, should we discuss everything shown in the new 3.6 trailer? Bowser's Castle, HD Saffron, HD Peach's Castle, and Dracula's reskinned as Delfino's Secret. And a new alternate stage loader, they showed Brawl Summit, Brawl Green Hill Zone, and 64 Dream Land. I'm guessing all the old Brawl and 64 stages will be in there, so I guess you're getting your wish if you wanted Brawl Rumble Falls.

As much as I like the concept of the Alternate Stage Loader (I hated hated HATED Metal Cavern HD), I'm kind of nervous that it's going to cost me my Custom Stage Slots.

I'd put up with MCHD if it meant I could still have my SSF2: Sky Sanctuary Zone and Wii U: Big Battlefield.

 

[MegaMissingno]

As much as I like the concept of the Alternate Stage Loader (I hated hated HATED Metal Cavern HD), I'm kind of nervous that it's going to cost me my Custom Stage Slots.

I'd put up with MCHD if it meant I could still have my SSF2: Sky Sanctuary Zone and Wii U: Big Battlefield.

Sandfall posted on reddit saying you can swap the alternate stages out just like any other stage, and they'll post a tutorial on editing your codeset to add more alternates to any of the stages that don't already have their own.

Dunno if there'll be any conflicts with previous existing methods of adding slots, but this does confirm there will be some room to add slots on any stage that doesn't have an alt. And if there are any alts you want to get rid of, like MCHD, you can swap that out too while keeping MC64.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Sandfall posted on reddit saying you can swap the alternate stages out just like any other stage, and they'll post a tutorial on editing your codeset to add more alternates to any of the stages that don't already have their own.

Dunno if there'll be any conflicts with previous existing methods of adding slots, but this does confirm there will be some room to add slots on any stage that doesn't have an alt. And if there are any alts you want to get rid of, like MCHD, you can swap that out too while keeping MC64.

Yeah, I hope there's enough slots to squeeze in what I need. I can't take anything out, because my build is used publicly in my little college smash group.

The ideal situation is the existing Stage Expansion System (STGCUSTOMxx.pac) working, but if it doesn't, I'll take what I can get.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Speaking of the new stages and asymmetry and stage influence depending on player skill, looks like DP's sides might've changed. That's be very disappointing to me, as it's a major factor in making it less PS2 and more unique in general, and is the actually-good kind of feature for a counterpick. The main reason I ever go DP over PS2 besides bans is when I know my opponent is bad at playing the video game. I hope it's still the same on the left, at least.
The new look is fantastic, though. Bowser's Lava Pit Waterfall seems neat too, and I'm super stoked for Peach's Old Residence Which Was in the Sky for Some Reason.

 

[GFooChombey]

@ Cubelarooso Have you considered getting into making stages? You have a lot of well thought ideas.

New stages though, do you think Delfino Secret will be loaded with Delfino Plaza giving us back Luigi's Mansion or something now? I'm probably the minority, but I don't like that we're getting Melee BF. I just don't like the art style personally.
The alternate stage loader is a huge advancement though and I'm super excited. Nobody can complain about their favorite stages being removed anymore unless it was replaced by a 64 stage because the alt for those seems to be original textures and not the stage it replaced.


EDIT: The following stages appear to be removed from 3.6


Rainbow Cruise
Drac's (obviously)
Peach's Castle (Melee)

Spoiler

Which is a shame cause I had an idea I wanted to share about Peach's Castle when it was our topic.

~ The following stages are confirmed ASL ~


Pokemon Stadium 1 (on 2)
Skyloft (Edit - SOJ confirms this will be the ASL on Temple)

 

[Nefnoj]

@ Cubelarooso Have you considered getting into making stages? You have a lot of well thought ideas.

New stages though, do you think Delfino Secret will be loaded with Delfino Plaza giving us back Luigi's Mansion or something now? I'm probably the minority, but I don't like that we're getting Melee BF. I just don't like the art style personally.
The alternate stage loader is a huge advancement though and I'm super excited. Nobody can complain about their favorite stages being removed anymore unless it was replaced by a 64 stage because the alt for those seems to be original textures and not the stage it replaced.


EDIT: The following stages appear to be removed from 3.6


Rainbow Cruise
Drac's (obviously)
Peach's Castle (Melee)

Spoiler

Which is a shame cause I had an idea I wanted to share about Peach's Castle when it was our topic.

~ The following stages are confirmed ASL ~


Pokemon Stadium 1 (on 2)
Skyloft (Edit - SOJ confirms this will be the ASL on Temple)

I NEVER LOVED RAINBOW CRUISE ANYWAY.
AND PEACH'S CASTLE HAD NO BULLETS NOR BUTTONS.
PAH.

I wonder what they'll do with Alternate Stages with different names from the original.

 

[Sandfall]

Rainbow Cruise
Drac's (obviously)
Peach's Castle (Melee)

Spoiler

Which is a shame cause I had an idea I wanted to share about Peach's Castle when it was our topic.

Confirmed. Bowser's Castle and Peach's Castle 64 took those two slots. That should be all the cuts for 3.6. We tried to keep them minimal (and we brought back a bunch of stages too :D ).

Also, I changed the current topic, so feel free to speculate/give feedback on what you've seen.

 

[Cubelarooso]

wut is house

 

[Zzuxon]

Confirmed. Bowser's Castle and Peach's Castle 64 took those two slots. That should be all the cuts for 3.6. We tried to keep them minimal (and we brought back a bunch of stages too :D ).

Also, I changed the current topic, so feel free to speculate/give feedback on what you've seen.

So, which stage does Bowser's Castle replace? I have personally replaced SMI with a Bowser's castle stage, so I was wondering how many song slots we'll have.

 

[Draco_The]

I liked Rainbow Cruise though...

 

[arcticfox8]

Since we have Summit back will the fish be removed from Glacier?

 

[Sandfall]

Since we have Summit back will the fish be removed from Glacier?

Absolutely not. The fish is a key elemnt of the stage

 

[arcticfox8]

Absolutely not. The fish is a key elemnt of the stage

RIP then
the casuals win this round

 

[Comeback Kid]

I don't understand the reasoning behind removing a classic like Rainbow Cruise but keeping Mario Kart of all stages as an alternative.

Kart is a stage a very few people might like, but it isn't loved the way Cruise is.

 

[Sandfall]

RIP then
the casuals win this round

I was considering releasing a stationary version of the stage on the side. Is that something you guys would like?

I don't understand the reasoning behind removing a classic like Rainbow Cruise but keeping Mario Kart of all stages as an alternative.

Kart is a stage a very few people might like, but it isn't loved the way Cruise is.

wat
Mario Kart isn't being brought back.