Official Official LINK VIDEO Thread

Bravo_10 · Jul 8, 2015

Some of the tech you've been grinding to improve upon isn't actually guaranteed. You won't really see bair to reverse grab working on fastfallers at all, maybe only at medium-high percents. I get off most consistently against Marth, and even then it seems that proper DI gets him right out of there.

Jab-jab-grab is also not really a thing for Melee Link. Opponents can DI the jabs downward and get off a buffered spot dodge. If you catch a floaty like Peach out of the air with your jabs, it has a higher chance of working, but I'm pretty sure she can air dodge out anyway because her air dodge is nuts. It really works best as a mixup in case someone keeps shielding after your double jabs, expecting a down smash or some move thrown out.

And about your match, I think your neutral would be greatly improved by incorporating full hop nair into your game. Link's full hop nair is one of his best options. It carves out this arc of space on front of you that most characters simply can't challenge, and you can even double jump and do something else if your opponent flinches. I think your recoveries could also use some work. You never really want to land onstage against Fox if you can help it because he's so quick. Go for the ledge, then ledge dash on immediately if you want to be off the ledge fast. You also totally could have lived with a bomb jump on the second stock of game 1. It's almost necessary to know how to do that on Battlefield, where your longest recovery option (hookshot) is considerably weaker.

/edit: Also pull more bombs. Always more bombs. Bombs forever.

Thor · Jul 26, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8POqijSVX5s&index=12&list=PLwtjOEYy9Kxj92Mt5ubJslibkbGm1aNiC
5:48 = gfycat?

This was a pools match at a local and I lost this match 2-0 [I'm never giving pity stocks again, play to win, although this is definitely a good place to learn it]. I made bracket but had to open vs 10 on the PR [a Sheik, and my college for a while had zero good Sheiks so I'm admittedly terrible at the MU] and then won a match in loser's vs an extremely laser-heavy Falco, then lost to #9 on the PR [Falco] for 17th place. Haven't practiced much Melee in a while so I'm not mad with this placement but I think I could have placed better [and will learn]. Need to learn to cope with Falco lasers better [I used Falco once in each bracket match, no Falco in pools].

Would not mind critique (they're helpful) but I already rewatched it once and know some things to fix, some things to improve, and some places to optimize, so don't feel obligated by any stretch.

EDIT: I played much better in PM, taking 4th, including beating a player 3-2 that I'd previously never taken even a single game off of [he plays Falco and uses LOTS of lasers (he also has a Fox but I haven't seen it since 3.6 Fox nerfs)]. Not technically relevant to this thread, but I played only Link there and lost to the 1 and 2 seeds in that event, so I'll take it.

Edited for that extra note and to replace a twitch link and time with an actual youtube video.

Scoops_HD · Jul 29, 2015

Thor said:
http://www.twitch.tv/mnsmash/v/8516458

3:37:00 [or whatever] for match start, best moment is EASILY 3:43:20 [gfycat?].

This was a pools match at a local and I lost this match 2-0 [I'm never giving pity stocks again, play to win, although this is definitely a good place to learn it]. I made bracket but had to open vs 10 on the PR [a Sheik, and my college for a while had zero good Sheiks so I'm admittedly terrible at the MU] and then won a match in loser's vs an extremely laser-heavy Falco, then lost to #9 on the PR [Falco] for 17th place. Haven't practiced much Melee in a while so I'm not mad with this placement but I think I could have placed better [and will learn]. Need to learn to cope with Falco lasers better [I used Falco once in each bracket match, no Falco in pools].

Would not mind critique (they're helpful) but I already rewatched it once and know some things to fix, some things to improve, and some places to optimize, so don't feel obligated by any stretch.

EDIT: I played much better in PM, taking 4th, including beating a player 3-2 that I'd previously never taken even a single game off of [he plays Falco and uses LOTS of lasers (he also has a Fox but I haven't seen it since 3.6 Fox nerfs)]. Not technically relevant to this thread, but I played only Link there and lost to the 1 and 2 seeds in that event, so I'll take it.

Twitch doesn't always work the best for me so I wasn't able to watch all that I wanted to, but I did notice a couple areas you should think about.

1. I forget the situation, but you were performing U-airs on shield on the lower platforms of yoshi's story. This is a big no-no as U-air suffers from 15 frames of L-canceled lag plus the frames it takes you to reach the ground. This window leaves you vulnerable to shield drops or losing advantage when the fox retreats to a neutral position . I recommend you experiment with U-tilts and U-smashes, both are good in different situations. U-smashes can be used in rapid succession to apply decent shield pressure, but can be escaped easily with shield DI. While U-tilts can combo into U-air chains and D-airs for big damage, but can be crouch canceled at low percents because they don't deal enough knockback. Both are great for shield stabbing as many characters' shields don't adequately protect their feet.

2. I noticed you struggled to get some easy edge guards in game one because you kept spamming up-b near the ledge. Better options would be a f-tilt or d-tilt, as they hit below the stage and don't suffer from a ridiculous amount of lag. But the best option for edgeguarding a fox is to take the edge and hit him with the butt side of a nair. see below for examples.

Here we see that the ledge invincibility has worn off (the white flashing) but the nair still takes priority over fox's up-b and I'm able to make it back to the ledge before fox's next recovery attempt. This method eliminates any possibility of a wall ride sweet spot or ledge canceled side-b. Severely limiting foxes options.

Thor · Jul 29, 2015

Scoops_HD said:
Twitch doesn't always work the best for me so I wasn't able to watch all that I wanted to, but I did notice a couple areas you should think about.

1. I forget the situation, but you were performing U-airs on shield on the lower platforms of yoshi's story. This is a big no-no as U-air suffers from 15 frames of L-canceled lag plus the frames it takes you to reach the ground. This window leaves you vulnerable to shield drops or losing advantage when the fox retreats to a neutral position . I recommend you experiment with U-tilts and U-smashes, both are good in different situations. U-smashes can be used in rapid succession to apply decent shield pressure, but can be escaped easily with shield DI. While U-tilts can combo into U-air chains and D-airs for big damage, but can be crouch canceled at low percents because they don't deal enough knockback. Both are great for shield stabbing as many characters' shields don't adequately protect their feet.

2. I noticed you struggled to get some easy edge guards in game one because you kept spamming up-b near the ledge. Better options would be a f-tilt or d-tilt, as they hit below the stage and don't suffer from a ridiculous amount of lag. But the best option for edgeguarding a fox is to take the edge and hit him with the butt side of a nair. see below for examples.

Here we see that the ledge invincibility has worn off (the white flashing) but the nair still takes priority over fox's up-b and I'm able to make it back to the ledge before fox's next recovery attempt. This method eliminates any possibility of a wall ride sweet spot or ledge canceled side-b. Severely limiting foxes options.

On this edge guard the second F-smash sends fox on a low angled trajectory which takes him around the latitude of the ledge, I grab the ledge to guard against the side-b sweetspot but fox double jumps and enters a fire fox animation. This forces me back on stage to better cover the most firefox angles. When he goes high I cover it with an U-air which ends up giving him a much higher recovery position than the one I just covered. Luckily he shine stalls (which is a 20 frame commitment if you don't have a jump to cancel it) so it's easy pickings for my boomerang. Then the butt nair covers the rest.

I appreciate the input. This player I know doesn't shield-drop, but vs players who shield-drop I'm more careful about using uair from below. I find usmash often has disappointing hitboxes [especially after using PM usmash] but I'll try to work it in more.

I did attempt some dtilt edgeguards either in this or earlier in the day and got burned by firefox, which dissuaded me. I also need to focus on positioning myself better for these edgeguards since I seem to often just not be in a good spot to edgeguard correctly. Watching myself drop those edgeguards over and over again is painful... I've gotta up my edgeguard game so that it's a dead Fox and game 1 is in the bag.

Does ftilt really hit below the stage? I looked at the frame data thread and it looked to me like it would barely hit at the level of Link's feet... hm... in any case, I need to work more nair into my edgeguard game, and will try to keep it in mind.

On the plus side, I edited the original post with just a youtube video [It was uploaded, much to my surprise], and someone else made a gfycat of my coolest moment in the set: http://www.gfycat.com/ConstantFirmBumblebee

Scoops_HD · Jul 29, 2015

Thor said:
Does ftilt really hit below the stage? I looked at the frame data thread and it looked to me like it would barely hit at the level of Link's feet... hm... in any case, I need to work more nair into my edgeguard game, and will try to keep it in mind.

Here's a side by side comparison of the hit boxes in Link's D-tilt and F-tilt. You can see they both only hit under the stage for 2-3 frames. making it very difficult to use against a fox who can firefox at nearly any angle. It practically requires a read to use, which is why I advocate ledge nairs. But when you can't make it to the ledge in time or you want to go for a mix up, just try to time it so that you won't get burned.

Thor · Jul 29, 2015

Scoops_HD said:
Here's a side by side comparison of the hit boxes in Link's D-tilt and F-tilt. You can see they both only hit under the stage for 2-3 frames. making it very difficult to use against a fox who can firefox at nearly any angle. It practically requires a read to use, which is why I advocate ledge nairs. But when you can't make it to the ledge in time or you want to go for a mix up, just try to time it so that you won't get burned.

While not as helpful against Fox, I found something interesting... Falco's Firebird travels for 19 frames (43-64), exactly the same as Link's ftilt, so if you know when Firebird is going to activate you can time ftilt to hit him. I don't know how practical this is but it's interesting... with Firefox, Fox travels for 28 frames, so it's then about doing about halfway into the motion with Link dtilt.

In any case, this side by side comparison is useful... but I'll try to do more from-the-ledge nairs. I also seem to have been using them wrong.... I'd often run off nair and trade, so it's good to know I should face backwards and slightly above to beat out Firefox cleanly. Thanks!

Looticforgothispassword · Aug 1, 2015

I use ftilt vs doc and mario and dtilt vs CF and ganon. Dtilt is also nice vs puff since you can spike her down and maybe get a quick kill if you time it so she can't meteor cancel it(I.e within 20 frames from a jump or something like that).

Dextrose · Aug 8, 2015

You seemed to hit most of the spots I was gonna mention honestly. I see you have faith in the up smash, not a terrible move, but more cons than pros, I would mostly use this under platforms (on yoshis and FoD mainly, but eff FoD)after confirming with u air (on rather low percents). And more u air are always good when used correctly, it's one of links better moves.

Btw check out this game with my brother, he pretty much doesn't use tech but is still a good training partner.

https://youtu.be/0VbEN5rP3E4

Thor · Aug 16, 2015

Dextrose said:
You seemed to hit most of the spots I was gonna mention honestly. I see you have faith in the up smash, not a terrible move, but more cons than pros, I would mostly use this under platforms (on yoshis and FoD mainly, but eff FoD)after confirming with u air (on rather low percents). And more u air are always good when used correctly, it's one of links better moves.

Btw check out this game with my brother, he pretty much doesn't use tech but is still a good training partner.

https://youtu.be/0VbEN5rP3E4

If you want better practice vs your brother, I'd highly advise that you teach him how to edgeguard you [he should be using a lot less dair, a lot more dtilt, and more grab ledge drop double jump bair (preferably invincible)]. This won't make playing him as much fun/as easy, but it will make it a lot better practice, because it will be what good Marths do [also counter can work depending on the situation].

I think you should use more bombs vs Marth... it's not always easy to find a chance to pull them but they often lead to big damage and they're Link's safest projectile to use once you've pulled them out.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I went to an Arcadian on Saturday [no current, former PR players allowed, new PR coming out soon], and I took 2nd in PM for $100 and 5th in Smash 4 for $30. I didn't win any money in Melee, placing 9th, but both sets I lost were very close [and in both sets, if I had fewer SDs (and avoided a bad rest) I could have come out ahead]. I know I need to SD less, use more varied OoS options beside up+b [more nair for sure at the least] and edgeguard better [I really need to find a good spacie main and grind out how to edgeguard better... at least part of my issue is that I often force people off with spin attack, which means I often don't have nearly as much time to set up as I would if I launched them with fsmash or fair or something], but advice on anything [stuff I didn't mention, edgeguarding, whatever] would be appreciated.

Vs Ersaac [has taken sets off PR players, took 2nd at the event]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-gMHeajAl8

I should have a set with a Fox I 2-0'd later on, and I may have one or two other sets coming as well, since I was told that 2 of the games I played were recorded [but not uploaded yet]. I may also have a set with a chaingrabbing Sheik (not very good at it though) I beat 2-1 uploaded later, but it apparently was deleted by accident. The set vs the Puff I lost to was not recorded. I'm frankly a little disappointed with how I placed in Melee, but I lost to decent players and know I have things to work on.

Dextrose · Aug 16, 2015

Thor said:
If you want better practice vs your brother, I'd highly advise that you teach him how to edgeguard you [he should be using a lot less dair, a lot more dtilt, and more grab ledge drop double jump bair (preferably invincible)]. This won't make playing him as much fun/as easy, but it will make it a lot better practice, because it will be what good Marths do [also counter can work depending on the situation].

I think you should use more bombs vs Marth... it's not always easy to find a chance to pull them but they often lead to big damage and they're Link's safest projectile to use once you've pulled them out.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I went to an Arcadian on Saturday [no current, former PR players allowed, new PR coming out soon], and I took 2nd in PM for $100 and 5th in Smash 4 for $30. I didn't win any money in Melee, placing 9th, but both sets I lost were very close [and in both sets, if I had fewer SDs (and avoided a bad rest) I could have come out ahead]. I know I need to SD less, use more varied OoS options beside up+b [more nair for sure at the least] and edgeguard better [I really need to find a good spacie main and grind out how to edgeguard better... at least part of my issue is that I often force people off with spin attack, which means I often don't have nearly as much time to set up as I would if I launched them with fsmash or fair or something], but advice on anything [stuff I didn't mention, edgeguarding, whatever] would be appreciated.

Vs Ersaac [has taken sets off PR players, took 2nd at the event]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-gMHeajAl8

I should have a set with a Fox I 2-0'd later on, and I may have one or two other sets coming as well, since I was told that 2 of the games I played were recorded [but not uploaded yet]. I may also have a set with a chaingrabbing Sheik (not very good at it though) I beat 2-1 uploaded later, but it apparently was deleted by accident. The set vs the Puff I lost to was not recorded. I'm frankly a little disappointed with how I placed in Melee, but I lost to decent players and know I have things to work on.

other than what you stated about your play,something to add is your movement. im not saying its bad but i feel that you can be more mobile with link (and in general). i didnt see you wavedash much or waveland, is that you just dont feel like you have to or is it still something your are trying to impliment into your gameplay. If you search "ssbm christian" on youtube, youll find a link main who has great movement with link and is one of the better link mains.

Thor · Aug 17, 2015

Dextrose said:
other than what you stated about your play,something to add is your movement. im not saying its bad but i feel that you can be more mobile with link (and in general). i didnt see you wavedash much or waveland, is that you just dont feel like you have to or is it still something your are trying to impliment into your gameplay. If you search "ssbm christian" on youtube, youll find a link main who has great movement with link and is one of the better link mains.

My movement is grossly lacking... I'm not really wavedashing around because it's simply something I don't do, both out of uncertainty when to do it (that is, I'm not sure when a run would be better outside of when I want to jab, but at that point the jab is so slow [it's more than frame 20 to wavedash jab] that I'd often rather nair or fair) and less-than-rare flubs in tech skill [I'm not very technical at the game]. I also need to learn to shield drop consistently in order to better move around platforms... movement is easily my greatest weakness as a player, and while it's something I work to compensate for with a variety of other factors [I always try to be as efficient with Link's run and when to jump and where to jump to, among other things], it's something I'm probably not gonna be able to get away from much longer if I want to keep improving (and it probably doesn't help that I play a lot of PM, wherein having the DACUS helps my mobility considerably). I've seen Christian [aka Zoro (?)] but I don't look for his videos often, I'll go look for some to see what he does.

EDIT: Here's the match I played vs a Fox onstream... my decision making was worse [if possible] than vs Ersaac but I got some sick reads and made the right decisions when I really needed them I suppose...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwxXjIvisZs

Scoops_HD · Aug 19, 2015

I had a match vs. a Falcon yesterday where I played pretty aight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYIUxm84mkk

One thing I found that was very affective was whenever falcon was on a platform and I was above him, I would come down with a nair to force falcon into shield. Then I could land underneath his platform and go for some up-tilts/smashes. I gif'd a couple to show what I'm talking about.

http://gfycat.com/HoarseEmbarrassedGiantschnauzer#
http://gfycat.com/FaroffBrokenBernesemountaindog#

It seems to be an affective strategy, but I've only just now started testing it. Do any of you links have any experience with this set up? and if not, try it out and let me know what you find out

Thor · Aug 19, 2015

Scoops_HD said:
I had a match vs. a Falcon yesterday where I played pretty aight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYIUxm84mkk

One thing I found that was very affective was whenever falcon was on a platform and I was above him, I would come down with a nair to force falcon into shield. Then I could land underneath his platform and go for some up-tilts/smashes. I gif'd a couple to show what I'm talking about.

http://gfycat.com/HoarseEmbarrassedGiantschnauzer#
http://gfycat.com/FaroffBrokenBernesemountaindog#

It seems to be an affective strategy, but I've only just now started testing it. Do any of you links have any experience with this set up? and if not, try it out and let me know what you find out

I do this sometimes, but be wary of his shielddrop uair... should punish this quite consistently... but if you time the nair correctly, we have mixups with double jumping after it or nairing again, so that option isn't foolproof. Seems very good if the opponent can't shielddrop.

Some other notes...everyone can sweetspot around up+b, although with Falcon it's tricky... I assume you were conditioning to go low based on your next edgeguard.

Dthrow up+b doesn't work on fastfallers until around 125% or so... remember to pummel at least once, and I recommend uthrow at those percents [can lead to an aerial or platform tech chase into dair].

Didn't happen here, but be wary of being edgehogged when doing drop down double jump bomb pull up+B to regrab ledge. It's useful but get predictable and it's a stock.

You won game 1 with a nair, but the uair you did from the ledge earlier could've been a dair... dair from the ledge is important, especially vs Sheik, so if you can't do them, learning is a good idea. If you can, that would have been a good time to do so.

At about 9:05, Falcon's percent is high enough where dthrow spin attack SHOULD connect (as far as I know)... I think someone else could confirm this of course. I like the fthrow mixup though.

Good gameplay overall.

Looticforgothispassword · Aug 19, 2015

@

Thor : I have started to like utilts a lot and I want to see more utilts in your neutral game, you jab a lot when you also got good utilt opportunities. Jab is IMO a defensive option, cause it doesnt really lead to anything it's more for fending off approaches. Utilt on the other hand is great for throwing out in neutral when you got the range right or read a aerial approach from the opponent since it sets up for Links strong combo game. The risk isn't huge for the attack as it's not much worse than a jab in terms of speed and range. Turnaround utilts also setup for more usage of Links quick rising bair that also sets up for comboes is quick, got nice mixups and got good pressure.

Scoops_HD said:
I had a match vs. a Falcon yesterday where I played pretty aight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYIUxm84mkk

One thing I found that was very affective was whenever falcon was on a platform and I was above him, I would come down with a nair to force falcon into shield. Then I could land underneath his platform and go for some up-tilts/smashes. I gif'd a couple to show what I'm talking about.

http://gfycat.com/HoarseEmbarrassedGiantschnauzer#
http://gfycat.com/FaroffBrokenBernesemountaindog#

It seems to be an affective strategy, but I've only just now started testing it. Do any of you links have any experience with this set up? and if not, try it out and let me know what you find out

Typical case of "If it works it works". Nice find, Ill remember that one.

Thor · Aug 19, 2015

Looticforgothispassword said:
@ Thor : I have started to like utilts a lot and I want to see more utilts in your neutral game, you jab a lot when you also got good utilt opportunities. Jab is IMO a defensive option, cause it doesnt really lead to anything it's more for fending off approaches. Utilt on the other hand is great for throwing out in neutral when you got the range right or read a aerial approach from the opponent since it sets up for Links strong combo game. The risk isn't huge for the attack as it's not much worse than a jab in terms of speed and range. Turnaround utilts also setup for more usage of Links quick rising bair that also sets up for comboes is quick, got nice mixups and got good pressure.

Typical case of "If it works it works". Nice find, Ill remember that one.

I think part of this issue is me playing a lot of PM, since in PM jab dsmash is actually quite good and the dsmash sets up for stuff, but that's because PM dsmash is stronger and a frame faster. I also like jab to just throw people off balance and play footsies of sort, but I agree that utilt is probably a whole lot better, because it will just directly start combos. You're correct I use jab as primarily a defensive option, because I like to use it with mixups [jab jab jab, jab jab dsmash, jab nair or jab fair, jab grab, etc.] and it's the fastest option, but I'll try to figure out where to utilt more. I'm not very good at turnaround utilt, so it's something to practice in friendlies and work in.

Thanks for the advice.

CnB | Chandy · Aug 21, 2015

Thor, do you know a Zelda player named Chone in your region? If so, please tell him to get on stream more. I heard he upset Knight at the Arcadian, that's p weird. Whatever.

Team Plasma N · Aug 24, 2015

So I was able to fight Hungrybox on Netplay recently as his Doc (we've fought before too, but the MUs were G&W and Pikachu, both which it seems the Link boards aren't too familiar with). The match is here: http://www.twitch.tv/hungrybox/v/12381375 starts at 1:12:46 . It was my first match of the day and didn't do any warm up practices on my own beforehand, so my playing felt a bit off (no johns though). However, it still seems I have much to learn. Critiquing is appreciated.

Bravo_10 · Aug 26, 2015

Lord N said:
So I was able to fight Hungrybox on Netplay recently as his Doc (we've fought before too, but the MUs were G&W and Pikachu, both which it seems the Link boards aren't too familiar with). The match is here: http://www.twitch.tv/hungrybox/v/12381375 starts at 1:12:46 . It was my first match of the day and didn't do any warm up practices on my own beforehand, so my playing felt a bit off (no johns though). However, it still seems I have much to learn. Critiquing is appreciated.

Lol of course you guys played on FD. That chaingrab is pretty ridiculous to deal with. Also in my experience with the Doc matchup, I think you should opt for full hop nairing more to get through his pills. Even just shffling nairs will deal with one pill right in your face. In most matchups it's attractive to have a bomb in your hands at all times, but nair helps so much against Doc and Mario that I think you're going to want to practically spam it. For reference, check out J666 fighting A Rookie. In the FD game, J666 challenges Mario with a nair just about every time he tries to come in. It just beats out almost all of his aerials and goes straight through pills/fireballs.

Side note: I find it hilarious when Link gets caped and just grabs the ledge anyway because his up-B can grab it from backwards.

Oldiz · Aug 28, 2015

Rather new link main from Norway here, and i would really appreciate some feedback.
My actual controller broke earlier that tournament, but i happened to bring an old, really worn out back up, so i made more technical mistakes than usual.
https://youtu.be/VBPYOb034XU?t=16332

Bravo_10 · Aug 29, 2015

Hi guys! I've got some of your favorite: Melee matches with no player cams and no commentary! :D Well nobody ever gets to see me play because I practically never get recorded anymore, but I played a few streamed matches today.

Versus a random (terrible) IC player: http://www.twitch.tv/awstintacious/v/13321674 - Match begins at 21:40

Versus Awstintacious himself, a PR player in Georgia: http://www.twitch.tv/awstintacious/v/13344716 - Match begins at 1:40

I crushed the poor Climbers' player, and I think I did okay against Austin's Sheik. Neutral's just incredibly difficult in that matchup, and I really don't pull enough bombs to give myself a chance at success I think. Also I think I powered through that crushing first-stock SD pretty well.

/edit: Going to just edit in my comments about your match, @ O Oldiz . Overall you had some neat combos on Peach, and you did a decent job in neutral, but both were just a little suboptimal. There were times when Peach DI'd full in on a back air, and you opted for just a second bair instead of a dash attack. Getting a launcher on Peach is huge because she has a hard time coming down against Link's up air (especially with no platforms on FD). You also really need to pull more bombs and throw more boomerangs in neutral. This Peach player didn't seem to want to camp you with turnips, so what you did worked out most of the time, but a Peach player constantly throwing turnips at you will deny just about every aerial approach Link can come up with. Lastly, mix up your ledge sweetspots to avoid turnip snipes (typically Peach can only choose to cover close in or far away), or just learn to ledge tech them. That'll keep you from taking lots of unnecessary percent.

Oldiz · Aug 29, 2015

Thanks for the comments, @

Bravo_10 . I haven't really played that many peaches, but I do realize that i need to utilize my projectiles better (spacing with boomerangs and more bombs). I think I usually am better at recovering, though I did a rather horrible job that match. Also I believe my movement is really lacking.
Here's another video, where I play the commentator of the last match. He's a pretty good falco, though he was probably really inexperienced in the Link matchup.
https://youtu.be/XrymDyuep8Q?t=1013

squirrels4ev · Aug 31, 2015

So, I'm back from about a 5 month long hiatus from melee. I got in about 4 solid training sessions the week before Fight or Flight 4 and the days I couldn't play with people I practiced movement and throw combos on spacies in 20xx. I feel like I scraped off all the rust before the tournament but I got the jitters when I played which wasn't something that happened to me before I quit. Anyways, my pool captain happened to have a recording setup and I ended up getting my sets recorded. The whole pool is in one video here. I played the first set in the video against ABRO, a puff player I didn't know, and my second set at 28:54 against Lens, a local Fox/Marth dual main who was familiar with my Link.

I wasn't sure what to expect going into this puff, but I knew that my plan was going to be to wall her out with projectiles, which is why I struck to DL64. After the first stock I felt confident that I could win and I maintained a steady lead until the last stock. Just before I lost my second to last stock I began getting impatient, wanting to finish off the ~75% Jiggs, and I ended up getting killed because I messed up a decent combo. I collected myself going into the last stock, knowing if I stayed patient with my projectiles and took trades when jiggs approached aggressively I would probably still come out ahead. I felt like I nearly had the game twice, once just before my last stock and again when I got that up-B that Jiggs didn't DI at 4:40 into the match. When she didn't die off of that I got anxious, and thought that surely the next solid hit would kill. This thought got me to start fishing hard and before I knew it I was at kill percent. I was so bummed out by game 1 that I completely forgot about pokemon stadium as a stage and just went back to DL. In retrospect, I think PS would have been the best stage for my playstyle in the matchup. Game 2 I went into a little discouraged but still thinking I could take this puff. After I got rested the first stock I really let my nerves get to me and stopped thinking rationally. All I could think the rest of the game was "he figured me out, now I can't hit him with projectiles and I can't keep him out when he comes at me with bair"

I know Lens (I've posted a set of us here before from a twitch VOD that may or may not have expired) and I know he's the kind of Fox who will use wide stages to laser Link, so I struck DL and FD. He also knows that Yoshi's is my best stage in the matchup so he struck that and he probably left BF open because of Link's tether recovery and the lower blast zone than FoD. I felt more nervous playing Lens because I've never taken sets off of him in tournament, only games, and I knew he knew my Link. I noticed quite a few technical errors in my games with him but I'm much more comfortable with fastfaller matchups than puff because all my practice partners are spacie/falcon mains. I'm going to keep practicing shield dropping and grab punishes on Fox and I think when those things come to full fruition I'll be much better off in the matchup.

I heard something from Siglemic in friendlies later that really struck me and it's something I'm going to take to heart at future tournaments. My friend Bronte asked him if he made top 32, and if he knew who he was playing next. He did make it, but he said "I don't know yet. I don't like to look at the bracket, because I don't want to worry about the person I'm playing. I like to play against the character. I just sit down at the TV and play Melee." Part of that is paraphrased because I have a bad memory but I think that's a great attitude to have to keep jitters at bay for me.

So yeah, does anyone really know the Jiggs matchup that well? I feel like I was focused on bomb>fair because it works so well on Marth who is the floatie i play against the most (still not often), but I noticed that sometimes you have to bomb>uair instead on puff. Also any advice on how to deal with her bair would be greatly appreciated.

Going to edit in some commentary to avoid extra posting:

Scoops_HD said:
I had a match vs. a Falcon yesterday where I played pretty aight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYIUxm84mkk

I really like a lot of this play overall. Your combos are solid, neutral game is working. You're not shielding too much against Falcon which is a good thing because he'll eat you up if you let yourself get stuck in shield too much. The one thing I think you could change is the throw punishes. Forward and back throw are not that great overall, although they do sometimes work in setting up space animals to get gimped near the ledge. Falcon is just too heavy for that to work on even at high percents and you'd probably get more mileage off of uthrow>followup starting probably around 40% (dthrow techchase into regrab below that %) or dthrow near the edge at any %. The edge cuts cuts off the distance of teching towards ledge which makes it much easier to land up-B at mid percents and set up an edge guard situation, or to land a regrab at low percents where Falcon may be able to double jump knee you during up-B's endlag. I did see one Fthrow on PS game 2 just after 9 minutes in that worked well. I think that this might be an option worth looking into for the grab punishes thread so I'll tag @

SAUS .

It looks like he might have DIed up a bit, like he was trying to survival DI something else when he got grabbed and didn't change his DI in time. If Falcon doesn't have time to tech in place and shield on the furthest downward DI he can do there, or to jump before he's forced to tech on the furthest upward DI he can do there, I think that Fthrow>run up upB is probably a solid option vs Falcon at the ledge. It might work at some percents where upthrow would let him tech on a platform instead, which would make it a more guaranteed option than upthrow>dsmash/utilt/nair/dash attack/uair/dair/fair. Just a thought. I know Fthrow is really laggy/weak but I think I'll experiment with this to see what percent Falcon needs to be at for it to knock him down

ChivalRuse · Aug 31, 2015

squirrels4ev said:
So, I'm back from about a 5 month long hiatus from melee. I got in about 4 solid training sessions the week before Fight or Flight 4 and the days I couldn't play with people I practiced movement and throw combos on spacies in 20xx. I feel like I scraped off all the rust before the tournament but I got the jitters when I played which wasn't something that happened to me before I quit. Anyways, my pool captain happened to have a recording setup and I ended up getting my sets recorded. The whole pool is in one video here. I played the first set in the video against ABRO, a puff player I didn't know, and my second set at 28:54 against Lens, a local Fox/Marth dual main who was familiar with my Link.

I wasn't sure what to expect going into this puff, but I knew that my plan was going to be to wall her out with projectiles, which is why I struck to DL64. After the first stock I felt confident that I could win and I maintained a steady lead until the last stock. Just before I lost my second to last stock I began getting impatient, wanting to finish off the ~75% Jiggs, and I ended up getting killed because I messed up a decent combo. I collected myself going into the last stock, knowing if I stayed patient with my projectiles and took trades when jiggs approached aggressively I would probably still come out ahead. I felt like I nearly had the game twice, once just before my last stock and again when I got that up-B that Jiggs didn't DI at 4:40 into the match. When she didn't die off of that I got anxious, and thought that surely the next solid hit would kill. This thought got me to start fishing hard and before I knew it I was at kill percent. I was so bummed out by game 1 that I completely forgot about pokemon stadium as a stage and just went back to DL. In retrospect, I think PS would have been the best stage for my playstyle in the matchup. Game 2 I went into a little discouraged but still thinking I could take this puff. After I got rested the first stock I really let my nerves get to me and stopped thinking rationally. All I could think the rest of the game was "he figured me out, now I can't hit him with projectiles and I can't keep him out when he comes at me with bair"

I know Lens (I've posted a set of us here before from a twitch VOD that may or may not have expired) and I know he's the kind of Fox who will use wide stages to laser Link, so I struck DL and FD. He also knows that Yoshi's is my best stage in the matchup so he struck that and he probably left BF open because of Link's tether recovery and the lower blast zone than FoD. I felt more nervous playing Lens because I've never taken sets off of him in tournament, only games, and I knew he knew my Link. I noticed quite a few technical errors in my games with him but I'm much more comfortable with fastfaller matchups than puff because all my practice partners are spacie/falcon mains. I'm going to keep practicing shield dropping and grab punishes on Fox and I think when those things come to full fruition I'll be much better off in the matchup.

I heard something from Siglemic in friendlies later that really struck me and it's something I'm going to take to heart at future tournaments. My friend Bronte asked him if he made top 32, and if he knew who he was playing next. He did make it, but he said "I don't know yet. I don't like to look at the bracket, because I don't want to worry about the person I'm playing. I like to play against the character. I just sit down at the TV and play Melee." Part of that is paraphrased because I have a bad memory but I think that's a great attitude to have to keep jitters at bay for me.

So yeah, does anyone really know the Jiggs matchup that well? I feel like I was focused on bomb>fair because it works so well on Marth who is the floatie i play against the most (still not often), but I noticed that sometimes you have to bomb>uair instead on puff. Also any advice on how to deal with her bair would be greatly appreciated.

Going to edit in some commentary to avoid extra posting:

I really like a lot of this play overall. Your combos are solid, neutral game is working. You're not shielding too much against Falcon which is a good thing because he'll eat you up if you let yourself get stuck in shield too much. The one thing I think you could change is the throw punishes. Forward and back throw are not that great overall, although they do sometimes work in setting up space animals to get gimped near the ledge. Falcon is just too heavy for that to work on even at high percents and you'd probably get more mileage off of uthrow>followup starting probably around 40% (dthrow techchase into regrab below that %) or dthrow near the edge at any %. The edge cuts cuts off the distance of teching towards ledge which makes it much easier to land up-B at mid percents and set up an edge guard situation, or to land a regrab at low percents where Falcon may be able to double jump knee you during up-B's endlag. I did see one Fthrow on PS game 2 just after 9 minutes in that worked well. I think that this might be an option worth looking into for the grab punishes thread so I'll tag @ SAUS .

It looks like he might have DIed up a bit, like he was trying to survival DI something else when he got grabbed and didn't change his DI in time. If Falcon doesn't have time to tech in place and shield on the furthest downward DI he can do there, or to jump before he's forced to tech on the furthest upward DI he can do there, I think that Fthrow>run up upB is probably a solid option vs Falcon at the ledge. It might work at some percents where upthrow would let him tech on a platform instead, which would make it a more guaranteed option than upthrow>dsmash/utilt/nair/dash attack/uair/dair/fair. Just a thought. I know Fthrow is really laggy/weak but I think I'll experiment with this to see what percent Falcon needs to be at for it to knock him down

I watched a bit of your set with the Puff. You seem unwilling to shield in general in neutral. This is a big problem because Puff has good ways to weave in and out of your walls and typically she can sneak hitboxes on you after you whiff moves (using frame advantage). Shield is the best way to negate frame advantage, as it forces Puff to deal with the fact that temporarily she cannot hit you. As typically Puff is in the air, she cannot grab you either. You don't have amazing out of shield options, but if you wait for an opportunity, eventually you will be able to full hop or wavedash out of shield to get away and reset your spacing.

It seemed like you weren't getting very optimal kills percent-wise. Throw projectiles to make Puff jump then uair her around 120-130% for an instant kill. F-smash is amazing for covering the horizontal field in front of you when you need to get a kill (it's hard for Puff to get around it without committing to a slow full jump. Also, as you seemed to make pretty good use of, jab locks down Puff when she's in front of you.

Edit: played a bunch of Link vs Puff last night. As I expected, I'm having the most difficulty getting out of the corner to bair pressure. Link's short wavedash means that you can't really WD out of shield effectively to maneuver around Puff's bairs. Instead, you have to jump. As far as what to do after jumping out of shield, I don't have the foggiest. I'm thinking full jump can be decent if you have platforms, while SH is probably necessary if you don't. Short hopping toward Puff with fair after blocking a bair might be something to consider, as you have jabs to follow up, if she shields with her back to you. If you have room on stage, I'm thinking about testing out SH away from Puff into boomerang.

I need to play this matchup a lot more though before I can say anything more on the topic.

Thor · Sep 6, 2015

CnB | Chandy said:
Thor, do you know a Zelda player named Chone in your region? If so, please tell him to get on stream more. I heard he upset Knight at the Arcadian, that's p weird. Whatever.

I am currently at UIUC, but Chone is an MN Zelda and apparently relatively good. I'm sorry I can't really help you with that at the moment.

---------------------------------

Entered SMYM 16 and placed 33rd [top 2 made it out of pools, I made it out behind Duck beating this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45oylkNwIR0) in this loser's finals set after losing to him 2-1 in WS of pools [notable changes I made included nairing to stop his fireball recovery and using uair only at/above ~40% since it seemed punishable earlier (and I did slip up once or twice here]. I lost to Captain Faceroll [a solid Sheik main, he took a game off Kels this tournament in Melee and also beat Lucky in PM Loser's side] then beat a less solid Sheik main before losing to this guy (my SD game 2 really killed what I had going : / ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT73rOQUOWk )

Still need to work more utilt into my game, sorry Lootic. [I use it most probably vs Falcon and after dthrow, but I'm not particularly good at finding when to work it into neutral.] I'll try to figure out more when I want to utilt [but I am using usmash when people are on platforms a little more, especially on FoD where it has good coverage, so thanks to I think Scoops_HD (or whomever it was) for that].

squirrels4ev · Sep 8, 2015

I see uptilt in neutral as an anti-air that also serves as a launcher against most of the cast at a wide range of percents. It can lead to more utilts, dsmash, nair, uair, and at a narrow range of percents, dair. It covers a wider area than uair or jab, and falls between the two in terms of safety in neutral (in general). uair comes out more slowly than utilt (because of jumpsquat) but leads to better things usually. uair has more endlag as well, but you do get the benefit of being able to drift with it, and the hitbox stays out so it doesn't require as precise of timing to connect. Jab does a poor job of covering the area above Link, but is useful for catching characters with short jumpsquats jumping OoS, or for catching aerials coming at you head on rather than from above. Jab is also highly crouch cancellable, which can make it dangerous to rely too heavily on. Utilt has the superior angle of coverage over both of these moves, providing a nice wall of hitboxes arcing from about 40 degrees in front of link to about 30 degrees behind him. It's also very hard to crouch cancel, and at mid percents, even heavier characters like captain falcon will be knocked down if they try to cc, or launched if they don't. The drawback of utilt is that it lasts a good amount of time and if your opponent baits you into it they can oftentimes grab you out of dashdance as a fast character like sheik, fox, or falcon.

I think the best way to work utilt into your playstyle is to spam games against a falcon and practice using it to intercept his nairs and dairs. One thing I love to do against Falcons is use the area under side platforms to pull bombs and throw boomerangs, and keep him from coming in with those projectiles and things like jab>dsmash. A lot of falcons will try to stomp you through the platform in this situation and when that happens you can just crouch under the hit and utilt them.

I noticed you up-b OoS a lot and also come down with dair more than is probably safe. Both of these work out for you from time to time but dair should be more of a mixup because of how punishable it is, and up-b OoS isn't that great against low percent opponents. I'd recommend testing out falling with nair and mixing it up with bair, dair, and uair if you're feeling real swag (usually only works on tall characters like shiek, falcon, peach, marth). I watched some other sets for reference and I think you should try mixing in light shielding, shield drops, and buffering rolls to get out of pressure. For example, in your second recorded set vs the Falco, at around 46 seconds in you crossup falco with a bair and when you land you put up your shield. He shines your shield and at that point you could buffer a roll to escape potential aerial>shine pressure. If the spacie jumps to pressure your shield with an aerial they will often be unable to catch your roll. If they expect you to roll, it will usually only lead to a dash attack. He did end up full jumping and dairing which hit you out of up-B. After that he shines, wavedashes away, and forward smashes your shield. You shield grabbed him, which was good, but if you up-B'ed out of shield there instead you probably would have killed him on such a small stage. You did well to roll out of waveshine pressure at 1:19. Personally I'm really bad at the timing for up-B OoS, so I don't do it as much as I should, but it has it's place amongst Link's defensive options OoS. It works pretty well against high aerials.

ChivalRuse · Sep 8, 2015

Link's u-tilt is actually a KO move on floaties around 110-120%. It also combos into dair against fast fallers at borderline kill percents.

RedmanSSBM · Sep 8, 2015

I ****ing love Link's uptilt in neutral. Love the hitbox on that thing.

ChivalRuse · Sep 8, 2015

Turnaround u-tilt doe.

link7 · Sep 21, 2015

Here are a few matches from a local tourney. Critique is welcome, since I need it badly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTz41r72noI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgi0I-ySEfY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW24R46_i2g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyi5NWx6GEk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zP7J0FKm_8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oGpyVcClAc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIagRgrBmE4

melito · Oct 8, 2015

hey link7, i didnt watch all the videos but i watched the firsty one, and i saw you were trying to be fancy and you were doing random grabs. you also did like 3 neutral air attacks for no reason, so avoid all that.

also for everyone in here, i am trying to take my link to the next level, just started playing like a week and half ago, and ive seen mcuh inprovment on myself and continue to get better, but i wanted to leave this link https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFEc_xC9DNgimOS-WWW3JHQ

its my youtube channel, i will be uploading videos there of me playing. i dont really expect no one to watch but i just wanted to put it out there anyway, and please if your just gonna hate on anything i produce, dont even bother cuz honestly i dont really care about anything like that, just if you can give me some tips, and point out my mistake.. all tho most of my mistake are because of my mis inputs.. sooo, thanks everyone for even reading this bye

SAUS · Oct 8, 2015

melito said:
hey link7, i didnt watch all the videos but i watched the firsty one, and i saw you were trying to be fancy and you were doing random grabs. you also did like 3 neutral air attacks for no reason, so avoid all that.

also for everyone in here, i am trying to take my link to the next level, just started playing like a week and half ago, and ive seen mcuh inprovment on myself and continue to get better, but i wanted to leave this link https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFEc_xC9DNgimOS-WWW3JHQ

its my youtube channel, i will be uploading videos there of me playing. i dont really expect no one to watch but i just wanted to put it out there anyway, and please if your just gonna hate on anything i produce, dont even bother cuz honestly i dont really care about anything like that, just if you can give me some tips, and point out my mistake.. all tho most of my mistake are because of my mis inputs.. sooo, thanks everyone for even reading this bye

Good luck! I recommend also coming in once in a while and linking a particular match that you want analyzed. It will get a lot more attention that way and people can discuss one match instead of randomly picking from your channel.

melito · Oct 9, 2015

SAUS said:
Good luck! I recommend also coming in once in a while and linking a particular match that you want analyzed. It will get a lot more attention that way and people can discuss one match instead of randomly picking from your channel.

yea bro, that makes sense. ill be uploading my loses too of course, i accept them all. but yea, i am looking to improve, once i find the match that i think i need ppl to analyzed, ill post it here.. thanks

link7 · Oct 9, 2015

melito said:
hey link7, i didnt watch all the videos but i watched the firsty one, and i saw you were trying to be fancy and you were doing random grabs. you also did like 3 neutral air attacks for no reason, so avoid all that.

Not sure what you mean by fancy. But yes, I'm aware I need to stop going for shield grabs.

Team Plasma N · Oct 10, 2015

Well, I'll try my best to offer my 2 cents on both of your Links

link7 and

melito . While I'm not good, I do have a few things I've noticed in both of your gameplays. If any better Link player wants to chime in and correct my scrubby ways, please do so XD.

link7 :

One thing that really stood out to me when watching your matches is lack of ledge hops when you grab the ledge. I normally keep seeing you either climbing up the ledge normally or doing a tournament winner (pressing jump to jump when you're hanging on ledge. Though I sometimes do this accidentally from jittery nerves, so idk if you intended to do those or not). Both of these options are typically easily punished. Ledge hop fair is nice as a quick attack while recovering, and ledgedashes help provide a boost in Link's speed. Link can ledgestall for invincibility frames, so that should help protect you when recovering back on stage. Ledge hop dair is useful when your opponent lands back on stage after a failed edgeguard.

I've noticed you like to plant bombs on platforms after you get a kill. I feel planting bombs do serve some use, but often you lay them and seem to not bother with them again. One thing you can do with a planted bomb is take out another bomb, throw it at your opponent, pick up the planted bomb, and throw that too. The only issue I see with this is it can be quite predictable, but your opponent will most likely try shielding the bombs (unless they adapt to catching them), so it can act as a form of pressure of some sort. Another use for bomb plants are baiting your opponent to hit them. Opponents that try and approach you and use an aerial can be tricked into hitting a planted bomb on a platform. There was one instance of this in the video of you vs Aran at 13:00. You planted a bomb and Aran hungry to hit you on the platform ended up taking bomb damage.

Another thing I feel that you could work on is your movement. Link is a slow character, but uses of surf-wavedashes and wavelanding helps improve his speed. Although you were usually on stages that had platforms, I barely saw much platform usage from you. Platforms can help you evade a Falco's lasers at ground level and they also provide a nice little space for you to throw your projectiles from above. In addition to that, they also serve as a tool to allow Link to waveland on, increasing his speed and potentially his mobility.

melito :

Your movement looks like it could use work. Incorperating wavelands on platforms and surf-wavedashes will help increase Link's speed. Melee is a game where movement is highly important, so doing what you can to increase Link's speed and movement will be very helpful.

Against Sheik you did a ledge hop bomb throw, this was good. After that I saw little evidence of ledge hops. Ledge hops are the fastest way for you to recover. If your opponent is close enough, you can ledge hop fair them to dish out some damage and if they're at a high enough percent, they'll get knocked back (starts at around 30-40% for most characters iirc). Against an opponent that recovered on the edge of the stage while you're hanging on to the ledge, a ledge hop dair can suffice as a killing blow if they're at high percents. As I told link7, Link can ledge stall for invincibility frames, so taking advantage of that can help you can back to the stage safely.

That's all I can think of for now. There's probably more, but I spent over 2 hours making this post and it's already 2 am here XD. I'll try and see if I can find anything else to critique for both of you if I can. Otherwise if any better Link main that can chime in, please do so.

link7 · Oct 10, 2015

Lord N said:
Well, I'll try my best to offer my 2 cents on both of your Links link7 and melito . While I'm not good, I do have a few things I've noticed in both of your gameplays. If any better Link player wants to chime in and correct my scrubby ways, please do so XD.

link7 : Useful Info

This was exactly what I was looking for, thanks a lot! I tend to go for ledge hop fairs when I'm playing friendlies, but in tourney, I get jitters and panic. Yea, I really need to step up my tech skill, especially with platform wave landing

Team Plasma N · Oct 12, 2015

It's been a while since I've uploaded a video. I feel like I'll need some more critiquing.

TPN (Link) vs Sauc3 (Fox)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4PmG-UshxA

I missed a bunch of up b edgeguard opportunities and messed up a few edgehogs, my ledge hops turned into tournament winners. Criticism is highly appreciated. I'll try to get more footage of me playing later if I can. My apologies for this set being recorded in 30 fps, apparently my recording software reset some of my settings.

EDIT:

I had the opportunity to fight Kage a few days ago. The match is on his stream: http://www.twitch.tv/kagethewarrior/v/20878120 our match starts at 1:34:50

Thor · Nov 3, 2015

I've got some stuff to drop off [I told

SAUS I'd do it earlier but I was promised videos that are still in the midst of editing... hopefully I can add those]. As always, feel free to watch/not watch and critique any/all/no stuff. I need to work on combo DI [as one match makes obviously clear], I need to actually nail down invincible ledgedash into at least shield, and I need to hold ledge more [while people saying these things and offering advice accordingly is obviously helpful, these are three things I am already at least trying to work on, although the second one is quite difficult without having a setup on hand].

Also, I have been considering secondaries for certain stages [I'm considering Fox to deal with spacies on FD/PS until I can get better on those stages since I feel I get rekt super hard on those stages], so in two of these videos I CP my Fox and use it on FD, and in one other video I CP Fox in response to being taken to Pokémon.

[I'm more interested in improving Link than improving Fox anyway, so I decided to try it for a few tournaments, and will likely not CP a stage + Fox in the future [although Fox or another secondary may come out if BEING counterpicked to such a stage, and my Fox mostly comes from a few days where I considered maining him a few years ago before deciding I wasn't yet technical enough to handle him (or in a position to grind tech over actually learning to not suck) + helping people practice vs Fox in friendlies, not any dedicated training].

But first, a hilarious excerpt from one of these matches! http://gfycat.com/BlindIllegalFeline

Thor vs Sizzle [number 4 on the PR, best Marth main locally]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqT_SpE9lB8

Thor vs 7ent [number 1 on the UIUC PR, best Falco locally]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa56etvR-Uc [was trying Fox on FD for practice game 2, but decided afterwards I'd rather just focus on Link as compared to trying to help train up Fox or Falco or someone else better than Link]

Thor vs PRZ [number 2 on the UIUC (it's the college I attend) PR, best Fox locally]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa56etvR-Uc [only game 1 is Link, game 2 is Fox dittos on FD, again because I was trying it out to see if I wanted to focus on Link or Link and someone else]

Money match: Thor vs S2J [yes you read that right, he was flown in for an event we had this past weekend - the MM was worth $2, and I know I could have taken him to two stocks at least once, based on how I flubbed some nontrivial edgeguards, but I'm definitely ok with how I played against him overall]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taWRn1qf4J8

Other tournaments:

Thor vs Jawanga [number 3 on the UIUC PR]: http://www.twitch.tv/thesmashingillini/v/22117604?t=1h32m1s [an example of what I meant by CPing Fox is game 3... I go back to Link game 4 however, so games 1, 2, and 4 are Link games] (also sorry this is a twitch link)

Thor vs PRZ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMgFU8JFp64

Thor vs Odderon [I may have already linked this one, not sure... he's decent but not ranked] :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl39z_S-kPs

Again, any feedback is appreciated.

Bravo_10 · Nov 10, 2015

**EDITED with youtube links instead of twitch vods!**

Thor The Falcon matchup is just the worst and I hate it. You should join the Falcon hate group on Facebook like me. I feel like you probably already realize your main mistakes in the match with Johnny (you SD'd, your combo DI wasn't that on point, obvious stuff). However I think you may have overcomplicated the edge guard game, which is something I tend to do a lot myself. When Falcon is recovering high, you should try to react to his on-stage drift by throwing a bomb upward, and up-B him if he fades back to the ledge. You d-tilted when he recovered from below (which is what I would do), but there were some times where he was blatantly not going for the sweetspot, and you didn't just kill him with up-B. Your punish game in general was a little lackluster, but it's difficult to punish such a heavy character at low percents anyway because nothing will knock him down besides d-throw. Lastly, I'd say your pressure needs some work. The only way to keep Doug from just running circles around you is to keep him pinned down in the corner. Jab his shield after hitting it with an aerial, try to call out his jumps from the corner with full hop nairs or up tilts.

The match I may have more insight for was the one with Sizzle. Marth is my favorite and probably best matchup. Neutral game isn't my strongest suit, but I'd suggest moving around more quickly and staying grounded as much as possible. Baiting Marth to come in with full hops can be useful if he's far enough away, but it's also a dangerous way to get stuck into an uncomfortable juggle. You used boomerang to keep Marth out pretty well, but I think the only reliable way to get openings is via bombs. If you land a bomb at 0%, you can combo it into a fair, which leads into grab. In general, try to combo into grab more at lower percents because that's where your most reliable follow-ups come from. Don't always use d-throw u-tilt, try to mix in d-throw bair because if it's DI'd improperly, it often leads into a regrab. You can also go for other aerials after your u-tilts, like try d-throw - u-tilt - weak nair - regrab if the DI sent him far enough away. Marth can DI out of a lot of Link's combos, but I've found that there's usually another move that'll connect if he DI's to avoid one particular follow-up. You've just got to react well to his DI and be creative with it.

Now, I've finally played some more streamed matches recently. At StR, I played in the Georgia Tech vs. UCF crew battle, going in versus Apollo and carrying through to fight Rula. I'm pretty good versus Peach and pretty awful versus Falco, but I'm working on that matchup after getting advice from Christian. https://youtu.be/ONIgoYuTI64?t=22m38s

Bravo vs. GA Wes, an old school Falcon main from Georgia. I made a lot of the same mistakes that I talked about in my advice to Thor, but I think I made decent adjustments game 2. https://youtu.be/OmXzAQfMJ10

Georgia Tech vs Clemson crew battle. Went in versus Perthro, the best Peach in SC I think? Then they sent in a Sheik player who didn't know how to fight Link at all, hilarity ensued. Finally I got to fight ESAM. https://youtu.be/b3YTOqphlzk?t=6m54s

Thor · Nov 10, 2015

Bravo_10 said:
Thor The Falcon matchup is just the worst and I hate it. You should join the Falcon hate group on Facebook like me. I feel like you probably already realize your main mistakes in the match with Johnny (you SD'd, your combo DI wasn't that on point, obvious stuff). However I think you may have overcomplicated the edge guard game, which is something I tend to do a lot myself. When Falcon is recovering high, you should try to react to his on-stage drift by throwing a bomb upward, and up-B him if he fades back to the ledge. You d-tilted when he recovered from below (which is what I would do), but there were some times where he was blatantly not going for the sweetspot, and you didn't just kill him with up-B. Your punish game in general was a little lackluster, but it's difficult to punish such a heavy character at low percents anyway because nothing will knock him down besides d-throw. Lastly, I'd say your pressure needs some work. The only way to keep Doug from just running circles around you is to keep him pinned down in the corner. Jab his shield after hitting it with an aerial, try to call out his jumps from the corner with full hop nairs or up tilts.

The match I may have more insight for was the one with Sizzle. Marth is my favorite and probably best matchup. Neutral game isn't my strongest suit, but I'd suggest moving around more quickly and staying grounded as much as possible. Baiting Marth to come in with full hops can be useful if he's far enough away, but it's also a dangerous way to get stuck into an uncomfortable juggle. You used boomerang to keep Marth out pretty well, but I think the only reliable way to get openings is via bombs. If you land a bomb at 0%, you can combo it into a fair, which leads into grab. In general, try to combo into grab more at lower percents because that's where your most reliable follow-ups come from. Don't always use d-throw u-tilt, try to mix in d-throw bair because if it's DI'd improperly, it often leads into a regrab. You can also go for other aerials after your u-tilts, like try d-throw - u-tilt - weak nair - regrab if the DI sent him far enough away. Marth can DI out of a lot of Link's combos, but I've found that there's usually another move that'll connect if he DI's to avoid one particular follow-up. You've just got to react well to his DI and be creative with it.

Now, I've finally played some more streamed matches recently. At StR, I played in the Georgia Tech vs. UCF crew battle, going in versus Apollo and carrying through to fight Rula. I'm pretty good versus Peach and pretty awful versus Falco, but I'm working on that matchup after getting advice from Christian. https://youtu.be/ONIgoYuTI64?t=22m38s

The next two are twitch links because they were streamed at Tipped Off this weekend and haven't been uploaded to youtube yet, but I'll edit this post with youtube links once the vods are up.

Bravo vs. GA Wes, an old school Falcon main from Georgia. I made a lot of the same mistakes that I talked about in my advice to Thor, but I think I made decent adjustments game 2. http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash/v/24540811?t=21m00s

Georgia Tech vs Clemson crew battle. Went in versus Perthro, the best Peach in SC I think? Then they sent in a Sheik player who didn't know how to fight Link at all, hilarity ensued. Finally I got to fight ESAM. http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash/v/24719753?t=37m40s

1. I refuse to join a hate group for a bad character. I'd just as soon join a Kirby hate group >_> [aka never... and to be honest, hating them seems counterproductive... *shrugs*]

2. I'll keep the edgeguard thing in mind. Usually I try to nair Falcon back out, because weak nair can combo into DJ nair if they don't have combo DI and strong nair resets without their jump [so I should always get the reset up until they either go too high and get up+b'd or go too low and I just grab ledge]. I suspect I shouldn't use boomerangs on Falcon except to snipe Falcon Kick or to attempt to stop a double jump sweetspot from afar, so I'll probably try to avoid doing those when I can [it's why I failed that last edgeguard].

3. I don't know how I could space utilt to stop jumps from the corner [sounds like I'd have to be on top of him...], but I will state that I'm usually not that bad at keeping Falcon pinned down, but I think it's a little understandable that I'm not going to be able to keep S2J pinned down for sustained periods with my skill level [given that Westballz, playing a much better pressure-oriented character with better tools for the job, can struggle to do it]. Definitely working on it though [and I have definitely cornered less-skilled Falcons... I agree that the job is to pin him down, box with him, or be ready to snuff an approach out, and the latter two are much harder].

4. I knew about dthrow bair spin attack but didn't know dthrow bair regrab was a thing on bad DI... definitely something I'll keep in mind for FD [or whenever dthrow utilt won't put him on a platform]. Frankly I like getting Marth on a platform and just using uair or bombs to keep him above me, but the dthrow bair is something I'll consider.

5. Thanks for the advice.

6. [As an aside, I only played in one crew battle for TMG because none of the PR showed up - I was put as anchor and took 3 stocks losing 2, and one of the stocks I lost was an SD at 5% lol. It was vs Marth on DL who didn't really know the MU so it was pretty easy all things considered.]

And now, comments and stuff!

[Vs the Peach] At about 23:55 you land dthrow -> nothing... I'd at least go for bair or reverse nair [that is, use the backside] because percent is percent and uair and uthrow kill eventually, but I think dash back uair is possible as well.

At 24:17, Peach and Samus are like the only two characters you SHOULDN'T CC against when they are standing next to you and you whiff [Samus double dsmash and Peach dsmash], with maybe a shoutout to Sheik dsmash. If she had to run for that punish, CC is risky [50-50 on dash attack or running dsmash], but just try to react to what she does [I hold up, and if I see usmash startup, DI sideways... here you could have DI'd straight toward the cliff and been ready to tech too].

When Peach gets the stitch, if you are confident in item-catching, GET RID OF any and all bombs, and avoid throwing boomerangs. She can only throw the turnip, side+B [shield on reaction], up+B [not enough hitstun to be a risk, never kills], and toad [which I think doesn't combo into stitchface], as well as aerials from float... as for aerials from float, you can attempt to snipe her with the rang, or then try to pull a bomb out of range, and get rid of it almost ASAP. But catching stitchface is HUGE If you can do it. If you can't, then getting bombs ASAP [while out of throwing range] and trying to get her to lose the turnip is optimal. Fortunately he missed the tech chase with the second throw...

25:05 THAT'S a good CC shieldgrab right there. Good stuff. I don't think dthrow dair is guaranteed at that percent, but if they give it, we take it [maybe need to ask SAUS on that one].

25:15 You could definitely connect a uair, fair, or maybe dair after that bomb [though nair would be the safe option]. The ending was hilarious though, and worked out perfectly, so good read.

[Vs Falco] - When he whiffs the dsmash at 26:33, dsmash is... fine... but dtilt or fsmash are better [dtilt sweetspot breaks CC and probably wouldn't hit, but the regular part is still likely safe on hit, or safer than dsmash, and fsmash does a ton of damage while being safer on hit as well]. This advice applies before Falco is around 40%. That said, grab is probably BEST, but any punish is better than none, so good reaction.

26:43 is always an awkward moment [nairing out], but a SH uair or utilt or usmash could've been godlike right here, as Falco is in juggling percents now. Link is a character who LIKES being directly below Falco, so while trying to get space here is an option, I think aggression after the combo break could've netted a huge reward [at least 30%, off just a uair into any other aerial].

26:50 when on the ledge like that, if you can do uair from ledge [it is possible], Falco is again where you could net something massive [uair spin attack in particular could be devastating if he doesn't go above the platform], and it's one frame slower than nair. Nair from the ledge was a good choice, but again, if you can land that juicy uair, it really leaves Falco in a bad spot. You could've also gone for reverse fair, but that's a precise hitbox, and nair is still guaranteed percent.

After the bomb jump at 27:05, exact same situation as above. If you can't uair from ledge [and I definitely don't do it from the ledge enough], you should try to learn - it's situational but amazing [and I only started doing it after seeing SAUS do it]. Slow reaction on the spin attack punish on the cross-up roll, but good DI when you saw it shielded.

27:25 maybe I'm the only one who does it like that or feels this way, but again, I recommend staying under the Falco and trying to throw the bomb straight up at him, rather than going away from under the platform and throwing the bomb sideways. An example of what I mean is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-gMHeajAl8&t=35s [I do uair and go up on the platform to follow him, predict a double jump with bomb pull, then go under him to hit him with the bomb and finish with dair].

27:50 Unnecessarily hard-read in my opinion... if he goes straight, he just falls through the battlefield platform and dairs you... it is hard to tell these things, but if you wanted to cover that, a SH nair or fair would end the stock more safely if that's the option you want to cover.

28:20 Falco is durdling on center stage to avoid the bomb throw... if you are worried about the explosion, I'd recommend a double jump sweetspot z-drop before the ledge grab, or even just double jump sweetspot and get onstage with bomb throw [a very safe option usually]. The dsmash is unfortunate but it happens sometimes. The rest is just kinda Falco going off. Fortunately your anchor had the clutch and y'all one... good work!

Yoshi's vs Dreamland vs FD is a personal choice [I think Falcon should always ban Fountain and BF, although if you disagree I'd love to hear why... I think those are Link's two best stages against Falcon] but on DL he has space to run while on Yoshi's you die at 60 (FD we are pure combo food in my opinion). I don't know which you prefer, but I am starting to prefer DL more, since we have a great top platform to work with and live long enough that if we have good DI, we usually have to be hit twice, not once, unless their edgeguarding is crispy [and Falcon doesn't have an easy option to punish simply hanging from tether on the bottom of DL like Fox and Falco do, unless he suicides doing it, meaning we usually can just tech the aerial and spin attack to ledge].

I feel like PS is only marginally better than FD... curious why you chose it...

Early on in game 2 you whiff like 3 dsmashes in a row... I have this issue too sometimes, but if they won't give you dsmash, just utilt, uair, or nair them out of the jump and go from there. Jab dsmash can work as well in these situations [the jab to stop the jump].

At around 26:50, dthrow up+B DOES work with a few pummels [I believe above 140% is guaranteed on Falcon, might be a little bit either direction]. You can also tech chase into it at earlier percents of course.

26:15 AY UAIR FROM THE LEDGE! Not sure if that's safe at <10% though...

28:00 NEVER seen uncharged arrow -> spin attack... if that wasn't a tech skill error, that was amazing. If it was, good improvisation. Finish was a little hard to watch, but it's so hard to play patient against Falcon.

[Vs Peach from Clemson] As commentators mentioned, don't stale stuff before a crew battle starts >_> [actually matters a lot in really grindy MUs too]. Not sure if bombs stale, but in any case, probably should have restart [although if you can actually stale arrows effectively all the power to ya!]

39:20 you can shieldgrab jab2, although it's hard to react to. Jab2 is -10 on shield and her fast options are jab1 [2 or 3] and spotdodge [2?], but grab is 11 so at that range it should be guaranteed. I believe we can also shieldgrab jab1, except when jab2 occurs [-10 as well], so it may be possible that, on guessing jab1, grab CC grab gets her, and it just comes out as immediate dthrow or a pummel if we land the first grab [but ugly things can occur if she dsmashes I believe... can possibly option select around this, but... hm...].

40:30, again, pretty sure that isn't guaranteed at that percent, but what they don't know hurts them [also again we should ask SAUS or something]. Pretty sure uair is though.

40:50 you really want dair... strong uair would do it, weak uair might not. Good finish though.

42:03 a grab won't kill or combo into anything [I don't think, or else she gets a nair only off uthrow] unless his bthrow edgeguards are godlike [and you should still probably recover], and shield beats all other options. Unclear on why you spotdodged unless you genuinely expected grab [where then spin attack post spotdodge kills...].

42:08 I think that should be a strong uair and at least close to a stock [and the uair does like 15% while giving you time to pull a bomb].

43:10 love the pressure you're applying, although it's not terribly safe... I generally go for that sort of stuff either with a platform or not al all, only because if I get hit out of it, it could be curtains very prematurely, although I'm sure you're more practiced at it than I.

And contrary to what commentators are saying, Peach uair cleanly beats Link dair (have lost games that way >_>). Just an FYI.

[Vs Sheik] You open up with some whiffed punishes [that dash attack on your shield...] but put together a sick punish. Good work. I frankly don't understand your arrow placements [the one before the spin attack and some earlier ones in other matches], so if those are intended, your thoughts on arrows would be amazing to hear.

45:50 in that 40% range I believe dthrow dsmash works, although uthrow does as well [I often uthrow uair Peach around 50% myself]. Food for thought [you whiffed it once at earlier percents and stopped using it in favor of a safer punish... props for adapting on the fly].

46:05 after that uthrow bair, you could maybe hit a DJ nair, and likely don't give up positioning doing it, but in crews playing it safe is the name of the game, so I fully understand why you just went to ledge instead [and it would be a hard sell.

46:40 XD RIP Sheik... he shoulda airdodged, but good job planking to invincibility and a well-timed roll.

47:05 when Sheik has to pick a wakeup option there, hold shield -> spin attack on reaction her option is guaranteed, although it was definitely not a super obvious situation to do it. Good work closing it out.

[VS ESAM] He knows exactly what he is doing, and this is arguably Link's worst stage in the MU. Hard to say much because ESAM made it so fast, but I highly recommend trying to throw bombs closer to Fox unless you have a lead, because converting off bombs is vital. Good work in the crew battle, and congrats on making a huge contribution to your team's win!

Bravo_10 · Nov 13, 2015

Thor said:
1. I refuse to join a hate group for a bad character. I'd just as soon join a Kirby hate group >_> [aka never... and to be honest, hating them seems counterproductive... *shrugs*]

2. I'll keep the edgeguard thing in mind. Usually I try to nair Falcon back out, because weak nair can combo into DJ nair if they don't have combo DI and strong nair resets without their jump [so I should always get the reset up until they either go too high and get up+b'd or go too low and I just grab ledge]. I suspect I shouldn't use boomerangs on Falcon except to snipe Falcon Kick or to attempt to stop a double jump sweetspot from afar, so I'll probably try to avoid doing those when I can [it's why I failed that last edgeguard].

3. I don't know how I could space utilt to stop jumps from the corner [sounds like I'd have to be on top of him...], but I will state that I'm usually not that bad at keeping Falcon pinned down, but I think it's a little understandable that I'm not going to be able to keep S2J pinned down for sustained periods with my skill level [given that Westballz, playing a much better pressure-oriented character with better tools for the job, can struggle to do it]. Definitely working on it though [and I have definitely cornered less-skilled Falcons... I agree that the job is to pin him down, box with him, or be ready to snuff an approach out, and the latter two are much harder].

4. I knew about dthrow bair spin attack but didn't know dthrow bair regrab was a thing on bad DI... definitely something I'll keep in mind for FD [or whenever dthrow utilt won't put him on a platform]. Frankly I like getting Marth on a platform and just using uair or bombs to keep him above me, but the dthrow bair is something I'll consider.

5. Thanks for the advice.

6. [As an aside, I only played in one crew battle for TMG because none of the PR showed up - I was put as anchor and took 3 stocks losing 2, and one of the stocks I lost was an SD at 5% lol. It was vs Marth on DL who didn't really know the MU so it was pretty easy all things considered.]

And now, comments and stuff!

[Vs the Peach] At about 23:55 you land dthrow -> nothing... I'd at least go for bair or reverse nair [that is, use the backside] because percent is percent and uair and uthrow kill eventually, but I think dash back uair is possible as well.

At 24:17, Peach and Samus are like the only two characters you SHOULDN'T CC against when they are standing next to you and you whiff [Samus double dsmash and Peach dsmash], with maybe a shoutout to Sheik dsmash. If she had to run for that punish, CC is risky [50-50 on dash attack or running dsmash], but just try to react to what she does [I hold up, and if I see usmash startup, DI sideways... here you could have DI'd straight toward the cliff and been ready to tech too].

When Peach gets the stitch, if you are confident in item-catching, GET RID OF any and all bombs, and avoid throwing boomerangs. She can only throw the turnip, side+B [shield on reaction], up+B [not enough hitstun to be a risk, never kills], and toad [which I think doesn't combo into stitchface], as well as aerials from float... as for aerials from float, you can attempt to snipe her with the rang, or then try to pull a bomb out of range, and get rid of it almost ASAP. But catching stitchface is HUGE If you can do it. If you can't, then getting bombs ASAP [while out of throwing range] and trying to get her to lose the turnip is optimal. Fortunately he missed the tech chase with the second throw...

25:05 THAT'S a good CC shieldgrab right there. Good stuff. I don't think dthrow dair is guaranteed at that percent, but if they give it, we take it [maybe need to ask SAUS on that one].

25:15 You could definitely connect a uair, fair, or maybe dair after that bomb [though nair would be the safe option]. The ending was hilarious though, and worked out perfectly, so good read.

[Vs Falco] - When he whiffs the dsmash at 26:33, dsmash is... fine... but dtilt or fsmash are better [dtilt sweetspot breaks CC and probably wouldn't hit, but the regular part is still likely safe on hit, or safer than dsmash, and fsmash does a ton of damage while being safer on hit as well]. This advice applies before Falco is around 40%. That said, grab is probably BEST, but any punish is better than none, so good reaction.

26:43 is always an awkward moment [nairing out], but a SH uair or utilt or usmash could've been godlike right here, as Falco is in juggling percents now. Link is a character who LIKES being directly below Falco, so while trying to get space here is an option, I think aggression after the combo break could've netted a huge reward [at least 30%, off just a uair into any other aerial].

26:50 when on the ledge like that, if you can do uair from ledge [it is possible], Falco is again where you could net something massive [uair spin attack in particular could be devastating if he doesn't go above the platform], and it's one frame slower than nair. Nair from the ledge was a good choice, but again, if you can land that juicy uair, it really leaves Falco in a bad spot. You could've also gone for reverse fair, but that's a precise hitbox, and nair is still guaranteed percent.

After the bomb jump at 27:05, exact same situation as above. If you can't uair from ledge [and I definitely don't do it from the ledge enough], you should try to learn - it's situational but amazing [and I only started doing it after seeing SAUS do it]. Slow reaction on the spin attack punish on the cross-up roll, but good DI when you saw it shielded.

27:25 maybe I'm the only one who does it like that or feels this way, but again, I recommend staying under the Falco and trying to throw the bomb straight up at him, rather than going away from under the platform and throwing the bomb sideways. An example of what I mean is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-gMHeajAl8&t=35s [I do uair and go up on the platform to follow him, predict a double jump with bomb pull, then go under him to hit him with the bomb and finish with dair].

27:50 Unnecessarily hard-read in my opinion... if he goes straight, he just falls through the battlefield platform and dairs you... it is hard to tell these things, but if you wanted to cover that, a SH nair or fair would end the stock more safely if that's the option you want to cover.

28:20 Falco is durdling on center stage to avoid the bomb throw... if you are worried about the explosion, I'd recommend a double jump sweetspot z-drop before the ledge grab, or even just double jump sweetspot and get onstage with bomb throw [a very safe option usually]. The dsmash is unfortunate but it happens sometimes. The rest is just kinda Falco going off. Fortunately your anchor had the clutch and y'all one... good work!

Yoshi's vs Dreamland vs FD is a personal choice [I think Falcon should always ban Fountain and BF, although if you disagree I'd love to hear why... I think those are Link's two best stages against Falcon] but on DL he has space to run while on Yoshi's you die at 60 (FD we are pure combo food in my opinion). I don't know which you prefer, but I am starting to prefer DL more, since we have a great top platform to work with and live long enough that if we have good DI, we usually have to be hit twice, not once, unless their edgeguarding is crispy [and Falcon doesn't have an easy option to punish simply hanging from tether on the bottom of DL like Fox and Falco do, unless he suicides doing it, meaning we usually can just tech the aerial and spin attack to ledge].

I feel like PS is only marginally better than FD... curious why you chose it...

Early on in game 2 you whiff like 3 dsmashes in a row... I have this issue too sometimes, but if they won't give you dsmash, just utilt, uair, or nair them out of the jump and go from there. Jab dsmash can work as well in these situations [the jab to stop the jump].

At around 26:50, dthrow up+B DOES work with a few pummels [I believe above 140% is guaranteed on Falcon, might be a little bit either direction]. You can also tech chase into it at earlier percents of course.

26:15 AY UAIR FROM THE LEDGE! Not sure if that's safe at <10% though...

28:00 NEVER seen uncharged arrow -> spin attack... if that wasn't a tech skill error, that was amazing. If it was, good improvisation. Finish was a little hard to watch, but it's so hard to play patient against Falcon.

[Vs Peach from Clemson] As commentators mentioned, don't stale stuff before a crew battle starts >_> [actually matters a lot in really grindy MUs too]. Not sure if bombs stale, but in any case, probably should have restart [although if you can actually stale arrows effectively all the power to ya!]

39:20 you can shieldgrab jab2, although it's hard to react to. Jab2 is -10 on shield and her fast options are jab1 [2 or 3] and spotdodge [2?], but grab is 11 so at that range it should be guaranteed. I believe we can also shieldgrab jab1, except when jab2 occurs [-10 as well], so it may be possible that, on guessing jab1, grab CC grab gets her, and it just comes out as immediate dthrow or a pummel if we land the first grab [but ugly things can occur if she dsmashes I believe... can possibly option select around this, but... hm...].

40:30, again, pretty sure that isn't guaranteed at that percent, but what they don't know hurts them [also again we should ask SAUS or something]. Pretty sure uair is though.

40:50 you really want dair... strong uair would do it, weak uair might not. Good finish though.

42:03 a grab won't kill or combo into anything [I don't think, or else she gets a nair only off uthrow] unless his bthrow edgeguards are godlike [and you should still probably recover], and shield beats all other options. Unclear on why you spotdodged unless you genuinely expected grab [where then spin attack post spotdodge kills...].

42:08 I think that should be a strong uair and at least close to a stock [and the uair does like 15% while giving you time to pull a bomb].

43:10 love the pressure you're applying, although it's not terribly safe... I generally go for that sort of stuff either with a platform or not al all, only because if I get hit out of it, it could be curtains very prematurely, although I'm sure you're more practiced at it than I.

And contrary to what commentators are saying, Peach uair cleanly beats Link dair (have lost games that way >_>). Just an FYI.

[Vs Sheik] You open up with some whiffed punishes [that dash attack on your shield...] but put together a sick punish. Good work. I frankly don't understand your arrow placements [the one before the spin attack and some earlier ones in other matches], so if those are intended, your thoughts on arrows would be amazing to hear.

45:50 in that 40% range I believe dthrow dsmash works, although uthrow does as well [I often uthrow uair Peach around 50% myself]. Food for thought [you whiffed it once at earlier percents and stopped using it in favor of a safer punish... props for adapting on the fly].

46:05 after that uthrow bair, you could maybe hit a DJ nair, and likely don't give up positioning doing it, but in crews playing it safe is the name of the game, so I fully understand why you just went to ledge instead [and it would be a hard sell.

46:40 XD RIP Sheik... he shoulda airdodged, but good job planking to invincibility and a well-timed roll.

47:05 when Sheik has to pick a wakeup option there, hold shield -> spin attack on reaction her option is guaranteed, although it was definitely not a super obvious situation to do it. Good work closing it out.

[VS ESAM] He knows exactly what he is doing, and this is arguably Link's worst stage in the MU. Hard to say much because ESAM made it so fast, but I highly recommend trying to throw bombs closer to Fox unless you have a lead, because converting off bombs is vital. Good work in the crew battle, and congrats on making a huge contribution to your team's win!

I don't really think Falcon's a bad character, he completely destroys most of Melee's cast. However he does struggle against the space animals and Sheik, so I guess at least he has trouble winning tournaments. And yeah, I don't know how easy it'd be to pin Johnny down. You were almost certainly doomed, I just feel like there was maybe a little more you could have done to keep him cornered. Falcon's out of shield game is crappy, so calling his tries to jump over you out of the corner with reverse up tilt doesn't usually get you punished. The only way he can really get over it is to full hop, and Falcon trying to full hop out of the corner is a situation that's pretty good for you.

Also, thanks for the thorough reply! I'll try to respond to your questions in as much detail as possible. If I don't respond to some points, it's because my response was just "yep."

23:55 - Tech flub on my part. D-throw dair would have killed, but I accidentally jumped in the wrong direction. After realizing I'd goofed, I opted to just wait with stage control and see if I can get anything on reaction.

24:17 - Yeah, that was bad. I don't remember if I was crouching or if I tried to down-smash and got sucked in, but it was kind of a panic button option that I regretted instantly.

25:15 - I actually didn't want to try for bomb-dair because I had a decent percent lead. Link kinda has to know it's coming and jump out ahead of time before the bomb hits, and I was worried that if I missed, I'd be offstage. Instead I tossed the boomerang to try and snipe out her double jump or float, and I charged the forward smash to either force her to go back to the ledge or float over me. But when I saw he was floating at such a low height, I thought "gee maybe I can just catch him with this." And apparently I was right.

26:43 - I disagree to an extent. Link likes being directly below Falco if Falco's either in hitstun or without his double jump. If he's on a platform or has his jump available to him, his fast fall dair (after either from a platform drop or double jump mixup) just seems to come down too fast for Link's six frames of jump squat to handle. Now of course, my reaction times suck, so probably I could catch those if I train my reactions. Either way, the nair out gifted me stage position, and I almost certainly could have used it better.

26:50 - I know about u-air from the ledge, and looking at it again, I have no idea why I didn't do it here. Nerves I guess.

27:25 - I didn't have a bomb in my hand, so I just threw a rang instead because it seemed quicker. Throwing bombs up at Falco is pretty cool though.

28:20 - I tried to sweetspot the ledge with my double jump, but I missed and had to up-B. Throwing the bomb early was pre-emptive, but falling too far to double jump to the ledge was what killed me.

I really just can't stand fighting Falcon on Dreamland. On Yoshi's it feels like he loses the ability to run away from me, which is one of his biggest advantages against slow characters such as Link and Peach. Falcons with good platform movement are also good at abusing the top platform themselves, so I like Yoshi's because I can actually cover the whole thing with a hitbox by just full hop nairing. I would love to go to Fountain because I can do the same thing, but Falcons ban it every time.

I picked Pokemon for two reasons: first, it's my favorite stage. I'm comfortable there, I like the height of the side platforms, and it's hard for Falcon to work out of Link's corner pressure without a top platform (in theory anyways). I have also played against GA Wes on several occasions before, and Stadium is the stage where I always have the greatest chance of beating him. I don't know if he doesn't like it or if it doesn't complement his play style, but I don't think I've beaten him on any other stage.

I d-smash too much in general. Wes jumped over... almost all of them. Even in the second set we played in losers. I was just being too stubborn, should have jabbed more, should have tried u-tilt or air, should have done literally anything else. -_-

26:50 - I really wasn't sure if d-throw up-B would work because I don't know the percents too well on Falcon. It would have worked against a CPU at that percent for sure, but I don't play enough real Falcon mains in practice to know how well it works with different DI. I need to give it the M2K treatment at some point and use two controllers to test it out personally. It probably would have connected here, I'm just bad.

28:00 - Pretty sure arrow to up-B isn't a thing that works normally, but the boomerang hit just before made me think he might try some sort of jump option to stop me from coming in on him. At such a ridiculous percent, the hitlag was enough for me to just react to. Apparently I have godlike reactions.. every once in a while. And yeah, the finish was rough. He'd baired my shield and missed the spacing before, so I assumed he'd do it again instead of just reacting to his move. Sloppy.

I don't really think boomerang staleness matters against Peach, I use it to carve out a region of space instead of actually adding meaningful damage with it. Also, bombs do stale! Well, the throw damage from them anyway. I think the explosion always does the same because it's an effect of the item, but item throws should add to the stale moves queue.

39:20 - That's actually amazing. That changes so much of what I thought was possible about escaping Peach's shield pressure. It's frame perfect, but so is d-throw u-tilt. Definitely going to figure out how to grab those.

40:30 - Yep, definitely shouldn't have worked if his DI was good. But he DI'd only very slightly to the side, so I knew I could go for it.

40:50 - I was reaching a bit for that air, but I wanted the crowd to get into it for me. U-air wouldn't have been as hype, glad I went for the strong finish even though it was riskier. (This coming from the guy who played pretty timidly in the first crew battle, lol).

42:03 - My main Peach practice partner grabs me an awful lot. This was a bad reaction out of habit. Blocking was the proper call.

42:08 - Similar to the first crew battle, I tech flubbed off of this throw. I meant to do a d-throw dair, which should have been totally free with that percent and DI, but I missed the jump input and didn't react fast enough after missing it to jump again.

43:10 - Those were risky moves that I hoped to rattle him with. After playing it very conservatively for the first two rock transformations, I figured I'd change the pace on him and see if he cracked. Most Peach players don't really know what the heck Link can do to them once he's in the air above them, so I threw out some nairs and ultimately baited out a jump that I could dair him out of.

Sheik stuff - Arrows, in my opinion, are almost always bad. They have low enough knockback to steal jumps off stage, and they have a good arc to cover the ledge with against some characters' recoveries. Most of the time, I throw them out because I want another projectile in the air, but I don't want to have to pull a bomb and remove the ability to do ground normals or aerials. I also like throwing them out for disrespect, especially in crew battles like this where I can make people say, "Why did I get hit with that? Isn't it supposed to be a bad move?" Other than those times, sometimes I'll read an option out of shield with it, or I'll try to arc one into center stage to cover the angle. Usually pretty sub-optimal though.
- Side note: sometimes if a player misses a tech on the other side of the stage, you can start charging an arrow and punish all of the wake-up options on reaction with the fully-charged shot. Stro showed me that once.

45:50 - I love d-throw d-smash, but if Sheik just holds away, you don't get anything else out of it. U-throw u-air is the optimal punish, but I was definitely screwing it up (though there was this one time where I read tech in place with u-air, and for some reason I was pixels away from actually connecting the hitbox). When I tried it later and got a follow-up, I realized that I was respecting his DI against me way too much. I realized over the course of the set that he had no idea what Link does.

46:40 - Funniest thing I have ever done. Really don't know what he was thinking with that u-air from below the ledge, but I think he tilted HARD after I destroyed his first stock like that. I was also very pleased with my wiggle-out hookshot sweetspot, which I almost always miss on Battlefield.

47:05 - I don't really like going for up-B all that often against Sheik unless it'll KO, but that could have been cool.

ESAM destroyed me, but I was really mad at myself for throwing that bomb early. I don't know what I was thinking, as soon as I threw it I realized I was way too far away, and I'd already committed to trying to go in after it. That mistake pretty much cost me my stuck (plus missing the DI on his last up throw), but I'd already done the damage.

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