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Official Official LINK VIDEO Thread

SAUS

SAUS

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I played at another local monthly last weekend! Here's the videos I got recorded:

SAUS vs Sky - young link/marth (friendlies):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oFgqgG_CJg
Just noticed there is an error in labeling the video. The marth is actually Arsenic. He's one of the better players in my city (I think 5th on our PR).

SAUS vs SSF - captain falcon (winner's round 2):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvH2UnrhH3k

SAUS vs Bam - falco (winner's semis):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1T_Bm9S11w

SAUS vs HHH - peach (loser's quarters)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvyvdTZTFTY

SAUS vs Lampadaires - shiek (loser's semis):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fmmVdGX_Qw

Kage was at the tournament as well, but I didn't get to play him in tournament or on stream. For reference, Lampadaires is 1 rank above Kage on their local PR and Bam is 1 rank above Lampadaires. They live about a 2 hour drive from us, so they show up for most monthlies :) There are more matches on the youtube channel there if you'd like to watch them! I think it will be the main channel for my local games from now on.

I felt my tech skill was not quite up to par for this tournament, but I'm overall pleased with how it went. Any notes or comments welcome!
 
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Corona

Corona

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Dextrose said:
BTW, what moves can Link do after L canceling a nair( or any other arial attack) on someone who's blocking to make yourself safe (if that makes sense)?
Click to expand...
It depends. On characters with a short grab range, if you land in front of their shield with a well spaced nair, jab is not a bad option. Jab, Jab, Dsmash or Jab, Grab are the quickest attack options that you MIGHT get some mileage off of. However, remember that nair lasts throughout the entire animation, so landing BEHIND the shield as the leg is coming back in (still has active hitboxes!!) is the best if you have to land.
 
Corona

Corona

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SAUS said:
I don't think I saw a single up-air in the whole set. It's one of Link's best moves. It can help start combos and is a combo move itself. It also does 16 damage if you land the strong hit :D With Link, I find moving up and down with platform movement is extremely powerful. It can easily provoke your opponent into going into the air (almost every character is vulnerable in the air) and it unlocks the shield drop (which I think every player should learn). Link's up-air hits on frame 5 (that's fast!!!). Shield drop up-air can get you a lot of combos. You can also even shield drop and throw your bomb up (if you have one).
Click to expand...
You really do like those Uairs, don't ya SAUS? I think I remember reading once you saying it is his best move. With that said, I looked through it again, and I am surprised at this very fact that you pointed out.Now part of why I didn't Uair is because I went to FD, so that takes away platform setups for it. But yeah, besides the 15 frame Lcancel, there is not much to not like. Duly noted.

What are your reasons for going to FD for game 2? I find I hate that stage. Platforms are good for Link's movement and for allowing shield drops. In general, I hate FD for all the characters I play, so I can easily be bias on this.
Click to expand...
Long story short, I love FD. Player preference over stats, really. My two favorite link stages (FD and Stadium) just so happen to be Fox stages, but I have pulled my fair share of upsets on them. I actually beat that player on FD the next time we saw each other in tournament. I can't shield drop, and I am not good at wavelanding. Prog once called me a "2001 Link," and there are many reasons for that haha. But, my reasons for FD here are as follows. I am a very campy, projectile heavy link until I start nairing around. Link's boomerang really shines here as it's full range can be utilized here unlike any other stage. That, and when most top tiers play me here, they tend to all do the exact same thing, disrespectfully dash and wavedash in over and over. Now, once they calm down and dash dance, I am screwed, but until then, bomb throws out of shield, Full hop nair, DJ rang, and UpB oos are what I do best.
Click to expand...
 
SAUS

SAUS

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I do, indeed, love Link's up-air :D My friends and I call it the "pointy hat of death" because it feels like he is wearing a hat that you pretty much can't ever beat. If you watch my set against Bam in my other post (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1T_Bm9S11w), you can see I land a nice up-air string that does quite a bit of damage.

FD is probably fine if you like the stage. I've just never been fond of it. It's hard to judge something like "Link is bad on FD" when there are so few Links to watch.
 
Tristan's Rule

Tristan's Rule

The Link of SoCal
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Slippi.gg
RULE#492
hey guys, somewhat new to link other than my like, 7 years, (heh) of playing him casually, and I had to play against Rickety in tourney, after these two sets I've been questioning myself as to why I'd main fox over him, especially since the only games with him as link i either win or almost win, he used to be power ranked in SoCal for his Shiek and Marth, and so i think i did really decent, can someone give me feed back on both these games?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHygPWov67w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buw2lf9ronA
it feels like when i'm onn fire, i'm really on fire, some of those combos were some of the best I have ever done, thanks for the help
 
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Thor

Thor

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UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
I have been doing better and better in tournaments recently. We had a single recording setup that I didn't get to use for anything except one game of PM (that I lost 2-1, though I had no DK MU experience and he won the PM tournament so I felt ok about it). I placed 13th this past weekend in Melee and I also placed 13th in a Melee tournament about a month ago (the only game onstream that was recorded in Melee was the only set of the entire tournament where I went Falco, lol - but at this point I'm back to solo maining Link, keeping Falco up to snuff wasn't much fun anymore). I have taken games off of 3 different Marths and 2 Falco on the local PR and I have beaten a Peach on the PR (haven't played the other one).

There's a tournament this Thursday, so I'm hoping really hard that they'll have a recording setup - if so, I dunno if it's wanted or not, but I'll be having a $5 Bo5 MM with the top player on our PR - the catch is, I'm my main (Link) but he can only play Marth (and while others say he has a Marth, he never uses him in tournament (Falcon with an occasional Falco or Fox) - so it should be somewhat interesting). If it's cool for me to post that here, then I will if it gets recorded.

Also that was an awesome set SAUS.
 
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SAUS

SAUS

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Thor said:
I have been doing better and better in tournaments recently. We had a single recording setup that I didn't get to use for anything except one game of PM (that I lost 2-1, though I had no DK MU experience and he won the PM tournament so I felt ok about it). I placed 13th this past weekend in Melee and I also placed 13th in a Melee tournament about a month ago (the only game onstream that was recorded in Melee was the only set of the entire tournament where I went Falco, lol - but at this point I'm back to solo maining Link, keeping Falco up to snuff wasn't much fun anymore). I have taken games off of 3 different Marths and 2 Falco on the local PR and I have beaten a Peach on the PR (haven't played the other one).

There's a tournament this Thursday, so I'm hoping really hard that they'll have a recording setup - if so, I dunno if it's wanted or not, but I'll be having a $5 Bo5 MM with the top player on our PR - the catch is, I'm my main (Link) but he can only play Marth (and while others say he has a Marth, he never uses him in tournament (Falcon with an occasional Falco or Fox) - so it should be somewhat interesting). If it's cool for me to post that here, then I will if it gets recorded.

Also that was an awesome set SAUS.
Click to expand...
Definitely want to see more videos. Do post if you get any and good luck in your tournament! I'd be happy to analyze the videos, just bear in mind that I have stupid amounts of school work to do for about a week.
 
Corona

Corona

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Thor

Thor

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It sucks a lot, but the guy who normally brought recording stuff couldn't make it... I lost most of my MMs (I had set up a lot more after I posted that, and lost most, but I went 2-1 in MMs with a random Falco, so I won $2, won 5, then lost those 5 to get some money off him). I took 9th (but out of like 30, so not that good), the highlight of the tournament was when I beat a Sheik on the PR in loser's bracket.

Against the top player I MM'd, I got 3-0'd, with the closest game being him JV 2-stocking me on DL - however, he apparently expected to triple 4-stock me, and didn't manage to 4-stock me at all, so there's that I guess... and it turns out he considers Marth his second-best character lol (even though I've never seen it).
 
SAUS

SAUS

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Fish Link said:
Question, SAUS. Why did you counterpick Fountain against Lampadaires?
Click to expand...
I like that stage :p I think he banned Yoshi's, which is my first pick against Shiek. I like that the platforms tend to get in the way of her chain grabs, and I generally just like smaller stages.

What do you think would be a good stage to choose? I don't really have much experience with choosing stages against Shiek, so I just choose the stages that I like.
 
Thor

Thor

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SAUS said:
I like that stage :p I think he banned Yoshi's, which is my first pick against Shiek. I like that the platforms tend to get in the way of her chain grabs, and I generally just like smaller stages.

What do you think would be a good stage to choose? I don't really have much experience with choosing stages against Shiek, so I just choose the stages that I like.
Click to expand...
If you want small stages, I think Battlefield is (while not as small) better than FoD - her ftitl and utilt can hit you through the platforms on FoD compared to YS [which you said was banned] or BF, and her dsmash can smack Link's head while on that platform if it's low enough (and while ours can hit hers, I think hers is just generally more dangerous). I don't think utilt and usmash poking through them is enough of a benefit to pick FoD over BF or YS [which you said was banned]. As another issue, the side blastzones are narrow, but the top ones are wide - this benefits up+B and fsmash1 for us, but hurts fsmash2, uair, dsmash (not that dsmash KOs often, if ever), and dair, while she keeps dsmash, fair, and bair as good KO moves while only losing uair.

If you really like the tether being easier, go ahead, but if I want a small stage against Sheik, YS (Which you noted was banned) > BF > FoD. While the platforms take longer to interrupt the CG on BF, I think it has platforms better for interrupting her dthrow KO setups as well (since you can often DI onto a platform and tech somewhere to attempt to avoid the fair/uair - sometimes FoD's platforms are too low or literally not there to help you).

For the record, I think FoD is also a default Sheik CP - if a Sheik doesn't know the MU, I generally expect them to go to it, since it helps Sheik in numerous MUs, including (if the Sheik boards are to be believed) vs Fox, vs Falco, vs Marth, and especially vs Captain Falcon. As a general rule, if they want a larger stage they won't go there, but if you don't ban it, they'll pick it if they want a small stage. I don't know if the Sheik you were facing likes small stages, but it was possible he'd have taken you there game 3 if you won game 2 anyway...

Kind of a long write-up, but whatever.
 
Thor

Thor

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Looticforgothispassword said:
New matches from tourney in Stockholm, placed 4th in the end

vs. Beat(Marth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u91ScHmakTE&index=9&list=PLlrexBkDToGivRukvhAt04DDFAiuZIMy8

vs. Leffen(Fox, Mewtwo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DbaSx4fPCk

vs Ashtray(Sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTtUv_oVFPc&index=8&list=PLlrexBkDToGivRukvhAt04DDFAiuZIMy8
Click to expand...

Your Link is incredible. Just curious... why did you strike to FoD against Sheik game 1 against Ashtray? I thought that was generally her best stage (as I posted above yours)... or rather, what stages do you want to avoid against Sheik (what did you strike and what do you normally ban)?

Also I normally CP FD against Marth... is that just a poor choice (since Beat took you there), and if so, what should my CPs be? Dreamland of course (we live forever, they can't kill... I timed a Marth out there once), and PS?
 
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L

Looticforgothispassword

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Thor said:
Your Link is incredible. Just curious... why did you strike to FoD against Sheik game 1 against Ashtray? I thought that was generally her best stage (as I posted above yours)... or rather, what stages do you want to avoid against Sheik (what did you strike and what do you normally ban)?

Also I normally CP FD against Marth... is that just a poor choice (since Beat took you there), and if so, what should my CPs be? Dreamland of course (we live forever, they can't kill... I timed a Marth out there once), and PS?
Click to expand...
Im not much wiser than you here. It's mostly just my personal preference. I didn't think much about Shieks best stage, but I dont enjoy playing FD a lot and everyone knows they should ban DL64 vs me, so its always a pick between BF, YS and FoD. I just happen too feel really comfortable on FoD and I figured with my routine I could use the quirks about the different platform heights to my advantage. I often want to think of my playstyle revolving around trapping, annoying and tricking my opponent. FoD helps me do that since you can come up with new ideas and there are more unique situations on that stage.

Choosing PS vs Beat was a big misjudge from me. I though I needed killing potential against beat. I dont feel the matchup is influenced by stage a huge amout, it's more player style dependant.

I rarely pick FD, I sometimes strike to it, but almost never pick it. I cant think of a matchup where Im better off without platforms. I use them more than anyone else.
 
Thor

Thor

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Looticforgothispassword said:
Im not much wiser than you here. It's mostly just my personal preference. I didn't think much about Shieks best stage, but I dont enjoy playing FD a lot and everyone knows they should ban DL64 vs me, so its always a pick between BF, YS and FoD. I just happen too feel really comfortable on FoD and I figured with my routine I could use the quirks about the different platform heights to my advantage. I often want to think of my playstyle revolving around trapping, annoying and tricking my opponent. FoD helps me do that since you can come up with new ideas and there are more unique situations on that stage.

Choosing PS vs Beat was a big misjudge from me. I though I needed killing potential against beat. I dont feel the matchup is influenced by stage a huge amout, it's more player style dependant.

I rarely pick FD, I sometimes strike to it, but almost never pick it. I cant think of a matchup where Im better off without platforms. I use them more than anyone else.
Click to expand...
Ah I see. I tend to use FD because people tend to use platforms to avoid my camping, since against some characters, I sometimes say "catch me" but often say "You gotta come get me." I am using platforms more [working them into my game], but I'm still on the fence about FD vs other stages. My dilemma is this: on the one hand, some characters like Marth struggle to get down without them, so I can poke forever, and if they have no projectile, they have to come through my wall on the ground. On the other hand, platforms mean I can get them up there and uair their feet forever, plus some people always go to them so it's easier to make reads for juggling, AND Link camps other projectile users [except possibly Samus] better with platforms (most specifically Falco), while they offer more routes of escape and more ways to stage control - plus they allow circle camping to a limited degree).

As a result, this is how I use FD vs top 8:
Ban it: Captain Falcon [EVERY TIME], Falco [unless I know they just don't use their blaster ever], ICs (duh?)
Eh...: Fox, Sheik (for both, it really depends)
Yes(?): Peach, Marth, Puff (I prefer DL vs Marth for sure, and I like PS vs Peach and Puff more, but this stage is usually a reasonable choice against them for me).

That said, FD is I think the stage with the biggest player variance (in terms of loving vs hating, though PS and FoD are close) so I can definitely see why you avoid it vs most people (and your platform game is sick, so I can see why you don't use FD much).
 
SAUS

SAUS

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Looticforgothispassword said:
New matches from tourney in Stockholm, placed 4th in the end

vs. Beat(Marth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u91ScHmakTE&index=9&list=PLlrexBkDToGivRukvhAt04DDFAiuZIMy8

vs. Leffen(Fox, Mewtwo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DbaSx4fPCk

vs Ashtray(Sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTtUv_oVFPc&index=8&list=PLlrexBkDToGivRukvhAt04DDFAiuZIMy8
Click to expand...
One thing that I think will be useful to you is hookshot before double jump (wiggle out and then air dodge before using your double jump - you keep it after the hookshot). There was quite a few times where your double jump got sniped. I've been finding this to be probably the best go-to recovery since it gives you lots of options.

The next thing would be edge guards. Against Shiek and Marth there were a few times where a slightly different flow chart would have made it easier.

An example: at 3:57 against Shiek, since she is so far away, she can't hurt you with the up-b explosion, so just wait on the edge. If she goes for the edge, do nothing. If she lands on stage, edge hop dair her and she would have died. No escape and still no risk. The only thing I can think of is maybe if she did some needles before up-b, but you can reset ledge invincibility to avoid getting hit by that if you do it at the right time.

Just trying to give you some tips :)
 
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Tristan's Rule

Tristan's Rule

The Link of SoCal
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Slippi.gg
RULE#492
I'm wondering, there's this bomb shield pressure technique I found practicing tech, and have never seen it performed before. there a just a few problem with getting it down.

Problems with it
1. You want to do it when under your SHIELDING opponent, this can be tricky to baiting your opponent to do unless the opponent is expecting a barrage of up-airs... @ SAUS SAUS
2. When you look at the shield stun time after the 3-4 hits on shield there is VERY LITTLE to NO hitstun from these bombs, really only making it a mind game and to strike fear in your opponent as you are juggling a bomb or two on their shield

Execution
1. get opponent to shield (above you (on a platform))
2. Throw bomb(s) up while trying not to shield poke (if you don't shield poke you can follow up with another bomb being juggled on the shield, leading to better follow ups)

Positives with it
1. if an opponent is not expecting it they'll stay in their shield the whole time the bomb is out (one bomb using this technique will be on shield for about 6 bounces coming from underneath, equaling about 12 if you can get two bombs off)
This^ will lead into amazing follow-ups such as a wave land onto the platform for a confirmed grab, or an up- air shield poke, maybe even a broken shield if you go up for an f-smash?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfUCMY3vos&list=UU8fzbj-AOmK8nad8bYPPKiQ I was super suprised when I noticed this haha, thus the reaction. ANYWAYS, If you guys are able to use this in friendlies or a tourney match please link that game. If this is gonna be a thing I wanna call it "The Shield Pressure of Time" haha
 
squirrels4ev

squirrels4ev

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Looticforgothispassword said:
vs. Beat(Marth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u91ScHmakTE&index=9&list=PLlrexBkDToGivRukvhAt04DDFAiuZIMy8
Click to expand...
At 2:30 into this video you're offstage recovering against Marth and manage to make it back to the ledge without getting f-aired. Marth tries to edgeguard with a poorly spaced d-tilt and you caught him with ledge-hop n-air to make it back to stage safely. My question is: Is that n-air something you have to time so that you let go of the ledge and double-jump n-air in the 17 frames before Marth can hit with d-tilt again, or was the startup of that n-air invincible because of how recently you had grabbed the ledge?

I heard Leffen on commentary during one of the sets talking about how Link grabs the edge faster than other characters, and that because of that Link can get invincible f-airs of the ledge. I'm inclined to think he doesn't fully understand how Link's ledge-grab works because Link still only gets 30 frames of invincibility after grabbing the ledge, he just grabs it in 3 frames instead of 7. That said though, it seems to me that an invincible (on startup) nair is doable for Link, if you time it right.

I have another question I just came up with while typing about Link's ledge grab. Let's say any character besides Link reaches the point where they can grab the ledge, and then Link reaches the point where he can grab the ledge 3 frames later. Will Link end up getting the ledge in this situation? The way I understand it, Link would grab the ledge on frame 6 and any other character would lose the ledge because their animation wouldn't end until frame 7, at which point the ledge would be occupied. I'm inclined to think I understand this right because sometimes I edgehog with Link in places where I feel like Fox or Marth (the other characters I main) wouldn't be able to grab ledge in time. Alternatively, it could be that each character grabs the ledge in the same amount of time, but Link is able to let go on frame 3 instead of frame 7. I'm not sure which it is. I might ask Kadano if nobody's sure which way it works.
 
L

Looticforgothispassword

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Me and leffen have talked quite a bit about how the quicker ledgegrab makes it possible for link to be less telegraphed from the ledge. It's more about the surprise effect than anything else, especially if you get a sweetspot tether you can get a ledge attack out of seemingly nowhere. I think thats what ihe talks about.

EDIT: I figure I might not have answered your question properly. I use the invincibilty frames, Im not sure about the frame data, but it works and that's what matters to me.
 
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Thor

Thor

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squirrels4ev said:
At 2:30 into this video you're offstage recovering against Marth and manage to make it back to the ledge without getting f-aired. Marth tries to edgeguard with a poorly spaced d-tilt and you caught him with ledge-hop n-air to make it back to stage safely. My question is: Is that n-air something you have to time so that you let go of the ledge and double-jump n-air in the 17 frames before Marth can hit with d-tilt again, or was the startup of that n-air invincible because of how recently you had grabbed the ledge?

I heard Leffen on commentary during one of the sets talking about how Link grabs the edge faster than other characters, and that because of that Link can get invincible f-airs of the ledge. I'm inclined to think he doesn't fully understand how Link's ledge-grab works because Link still only gets 30 frames of invincibility after grabbing the ledge, he just grabs it in 3 frames instead of 7. That said though, it seems to me that an invincible (on startup) nair is doable for Link, if you time it right.

I have another question I just came up with while typing about Link's ledge grab. Let's say any character besides Link reaches the point where they can grab the ledge, and then Link reaches the point where he can grab the ledge 3 frames later. Will Link end up getting the ledge in this situation? The way I understand it, Link would grab the ledge on frame 6 and any other character would lose the ledge because their animation wouldn't end until frame 7, at which point the ledge would be occupied. I'm inclined to think I understand this right because sometimes I edgehog with Link in places where I feel like Fox or Marth (the other characters I main) wouldn't be able to grab ledge in time. Alternatively, it could be that each character grabs the ledge in the same amount of time, but Link is able to let go on frame 3 instead of frame 7. I'm not sure which it is. I might ask Kadano if nobody's sure which way it works.
Click to expand...
Only commenting on the last paragraph:

1) Ask Kadano
2) I think the ledge is occupied frame 1, but you do stuff on the ledge as you attach for 6 more frames (or two in Link's case). But again, see 1). [If I am right, then Link actually loses there.]
 
Thor

Thor

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http://www.twitch.tv/isu_smash/b/612916179

I only got on stream for one pools match, but I did get one sick combo - uthrow on a platform -> uair -> uair -> uair -> uair -> uair -> down+B (There are a few missed techs and a few tech reads in there for the record).

I took 9th out of about 30th - still need more Sheik and Peach practice since there aren't too many where I'm currently located.

I also took 1st in PM using only Link [first tournament win ever!], but that's stuff for a PM video thread, not here.

P.S: If you didn't notice, I'm extremely untechnical...
 
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SAUS

SAUS

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Thor said:
http://www.twitch.tv/isu_smash/b/612916179

I only got on stream for one pools match, but I did get one sick combo - uthrow on a platform -> uair -> uair -> uair -> uair -> uair -> down+B (There are a few missed techs and a few tech reads in there for the record).

I took 9th out of about 30th - still need more Sheik and Peach practice since there aren't too many where I'm currently located.

I also took 1st in PM using only Link [first tournament win ever!], but that's stuff for a PM video thread, not here.

P.S: If you didn't notice, I'm extremely untechnical...
Click to expand...
Watching. I'll just jot down a few things I notice as I watch the match.

When you do grab combos on spacies, after about 30%, you shouldn't go for down smash any more. You need to use nair or dash attack if they DI to the side. I am not sure exactly when it starts connecting, but you can also start using up-airs. I think it will work at around 50%.

At around 1:53, after you hit him off with your up-b, you pull out a bomb. It doesn't matter too much since he didn't make it back anyway, but if you do a running full jump bomb pull, you will be in a better spot to try to edge guard him. I'm not sure if you knew he couldn't make it back or not, but I figured I'd mention this anyway.

At 3:23, you land that really nice tech chase up-air. I think you missed the follow up because you didn't expect him to go off to the side like that, but this is a perfect spot where knowing where your opponent can go and what you can do about it is really important. Then you just need to react to the DI. It's hard to do at first, but you can get the hang of it if you keep practicing. A down smash or up-b would have been really good.

3:48 - nice up-b OOS. That is exactly what you should do in this situation. I find I get hesitant with up-b OOS sometimes because of the potential to be punished really badly, so I'm not ready to punish a dash attack like this every once in a while.

4:25 - hahahahaahahahahaa!!!!!! Take that fox!

4:50 - You definitely want to punish that side-b with a grab. He is too low for a dash attack.

5:20 - You could have got him with the up-b OOS (or grabbed him). I know how hard it is to get these though, but each one adds so much.

I think you got a bit bold with the up-b OOS around this point. It worked out, but it could have resulted in some bad punishes.

5:53 - Really good patience waiting for him to land before going for the second up-air. For the next up-air on the top platform, it looks like you went for the read. The spot you jump to before double jumping is actually perfect. You can hover there a bit because it's at the peak of your jump, and then double jump up-air towards where he techs. What I'm saying is you didn't need to read his tech to get him here :p

6:46 - that grab was really nice. I'm not sure if back-throw was intentional, but pummel, down-throw, up-b is guaranteed at this % :p

Grats on 9th place! I think overall you played against this guy quite well. Keep it up!
 
Thor

Thor

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SAUS said:
Watching. I'll just jot down a few things I notice as I watch the match.

When you do grab combos on spacies, after about 30%, you shouldn't go for down smash any more. You need to use nair or dash attack if they DI to the side. I am not sure exactly when it starts connecting, but you can also start using up-airs. I think it will work at around 50%.

At around 1:53, after you hit him off with your up-b, you pull out a bomb. It doesn't matter too much since he didn't make it back anyway, but if you do a running full jump bomb pull, you will be in a better spot to try to edge guard him. I'm not sure if you knew he couldn't make it back or not, but I figured I'd mention this anyway.

At 3:23, you land that really nice tech chase up-air. I think you missed the follow up because you didn't expect him to go off to the side like that, but this is a perfect spot where knowing where your opponent can go and what you can do about it is really important. Then you just need to react to the DI. It's hard to do at first, but you can get the hang of it if you keep practicing. A down smash or up-b would have been really good.

3:48 - nice up-b OOS. That is exactly what you should do in this situation. I find I get hesitant with up-b OOS sometimes because of the potential to be punished really badly, so I'm not ready to punish a dash attack like this every once in a while.

4:25 - hahahahaahahahahaa!!!!!! Take that fox!

4:50 - You definitely want to punish that side-b with a grab. He is too low for a dash attack.

5:20 - You could have got him with the up-b OOS (or grabbed him). I know how hard it is to get these though, but each one adds so much.

I think you got a bit bold with the up-b OOS around this point. It worked out, but it could have resulted in some bad punishes.

5:53 - Really good patience waiting for him to land before going for the second up-air. For the next up-air on the top platform, it looks like you went for the read. The spot you jump to before double jumping is actually perfect. You can hover there a bit because it's at the peak of your jump, and then double jump up-air towards where he techs. What I'm saying is you didn't need to read his tech to get him here :p

6:46 - that grab was really nice. I'm not sure if back-throw was intentional, but pummel, down-throw, up-b is guaranteed at this % :p

Grats on 9th place! I think overall you played against this guy quite well. Keep it up!
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Good to know I can't dsmash after about 30% - I've gotten several dsmashes on spacices at 45%, didn't know they could jump out, so I'm glad to know I need a different option.

I should've done full jump bomb pull, but I thought his DI wasn't good enough to live. I'll keep in mind to do the running full jump pull (what I usually try to do most of the time, especially vs long-distance recoveries like Falcon). Thanks.

Yeah, 3:23 I expected him to DI in (he did that quite a bit), but I agree up+B would've been great. I might also try to react with nair to kick him offstage next time. It's good to keep in mind.

I've spent a fair bit of time practicing up+b OoS on dash attacks and smash attacks on shield because I always want to make sure I can get a punish if we're in a last-hit-type situation and they're fishing. I still mess it up more than I should but I got it there.

For the record, at 4:10, I tried to fullhop double jump uair to follow up aggressively, but somehow was fast enough to do a JC usmash (or else I missed the jump input entirely and just usmashed).

At 5:20, to be fully honest, I think 2 things happened: A) I thought the rang might stop my up+B from sending him anywhere and I'd get usmashed [that's happened to me before] and B) I thought then to grab and look for dthrow up+B, but realized I was too slow, so I rolled out. The other possibility is that I did try to up+B him but flubbed it and so managed to do nothing in shield (which somehow worked out).

I used to be way more up+B happy, since for a while I only fought super-aggressive people so I'd throw it out and they'd just run into it, and I think since he kept getting caught, that sorta came back here. I also should've gone for grab, not up+B after that stock, since I know that up+B is punishable without CC at 0%, but didn't think enough. Need to step up my mental game.

6:46 I think it was a tech flub trying to dthrow but I think I didn't go low enough since I was looking to up+B him. It may have also been me thinking to go for an edgeguard (I don't think so since I was basically center-stage), but always good to keep in mind percents for dthrow -> up+B.

Thanks for the all the advice!
 
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SAUS

SAUS

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squirrels4ev

squirrels4ev

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SAUS said:
6:46 - that grab was really nice. I'm not sure if back-throw was intentional, but pummel, down-throw, up-b is guaranteed at this % :p
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Is there a guide around this forum that has throw setups for various matchups with exact or even guideline percents? I've found that after studying a lot of videos of J666 and Germ, especially J666, that I'm able to get grabs much more often than I used to and I rarely throw out grabs that end up missing. That being said, I don't really know what to do with a lot of characters once I catch them. A lot of times I just up-throw floaties so I can try to upair them and downthrow techchase fastfallers. I also go for upthrow onto the platform for easier techchases against fastfallers and I have a good feel for the percents at which that works.

If there isn't such a guide, I'd love to hear what people know about how to throw any specific character (or characters of general weight/gravity classes) at which percent ranges and what sort of followups are guaranteed or possible against them. I'm most curious about how to throw Shiek at any percent (there's only 1 Shiek main in my local area and we don't play much) and Marth at higher percents after uthrow utilt no longer connects. I'd also be interested in knowing when uthrow or dthrow connects to dair or up-b against any character because those are very strong kill moves and knowing when they're guaranteed off a grab would help me a lot.

I default to uair off of throws a lot because I don't know when dair is guaranteed and I'll almost always take the guaranteed juggle over the possibility of missing with dair, dropping my punish, and possibly being punished in return depending on where I land.

edit: Also I did a huge training session with a Falcon main and Falcon seems to tech Dthrow and Uthrow for eternity. After I got home I watched some videos and saw a lot of Fthrows I think.
 
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SAUS

SAUS

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squirrels4ev said:
Is there a guide around this forum that has throw setups for various matchups with exact or even guideline percents? I've found that after studying a lot of videos of J666 and Germ, especially J666, that I'm able to get grabs much more often than I used to and I rarely throw out grabs that end up missing. That being said, I don't really know what to do with a lot of characters once I catch them. A lot of times I just up-throw floaties so I can try to upair them and downthrow techchase fastfallers. I also go for upthrow onto the platform for easier techchases against fastfallers and I have a good feel for the percents at which that works.

If there isn't such a guide, I'd love to hear what people know about how to throw any specific character (or characters of general weight/gravity classes) at which percent ranges and what sort of followups are guaranteed or possible against them. I'm most curious about how to throw Shiek at any percent (there's only 1 Shiek main in my local area and we don't play much) and Marth at higher percents after uthrow utilt no longer connects. I'd also be interested in knowing when uthrow or dthrow connects to dair or up-b against any character because those are very strong kill moves and knowing when they're guaranteed off a grab would help me a lot.

I default to uair off of throws a lot because I don't know when dair is guaranteed and I'll almost always take the guaranteed juggle over the possibility of missing with dair, dropping my punish, and possibly being punished in return depending on where I land.

edit: Also I did a huge training session with a Falcon main and Falcon seems to tech Dthrow and Uthrow for eternity. After I got home I watched some videos and saw a lot of Fthrows I think.
Click to expand...
http://smashboards.com/threads/grab-punishes-with-link.387797/

Hey! I decided to make a thread for this. I'm not sure if one exists already, but I added a bunch of what I know in there. I'll be updating it every once in a while as well. Hope it helps!
 
squirrels4ev

squirrels4ev

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I happened to get a match on stream at my last tournament. We don't partition all of our fights into highlight VODs so it's a link to the full stream. We strike at 2:18:00 or so. I struck first. http://www.twitch.tv/godwithawavebird/b/615161290

I started choking pretty badly during that game (and was aware of that while I was playing which worsened it I think) because I was excited to get a chance to study my footage later and once I started getting waveshined I really lost confidence in my play. In my previous off stream set I also played against Fox and was getting away from his waveshines by DIing or SDIing behind Fox and forcing him to reverse waveshine, which he was failing to execute quickly enough to keep me in it.

I think what really started to put me on tilt was the shinespike on the left side of FoD around 2:19:25 where I tried to Bair Fox and he doublejumped out and shined me as I was holding down to fastfall to the ledge off of the bair that didn't connect. A few things that I noticed both specifically and in general as I was studying my set follow:

1.) I poorly spaced at least one 2nd hit Fsmash on shield and was grabbed and upthrow upaired as a result. Specifically I jab>jab>fsmash>fsmashed all in sequence on his shield. I have a bad habit of double fsmashing shields because sometimes I catch jumps that way. I only had time to watch one set to compare with but in Germ vs Connor at KoC3 Germ does jab>jab>WDback>fsmash>fsmash on shield so I might try implementing the wavedasah and see where it takes me. Germ ended up getting waveshined as a punish for that but he was behind Fox so he got away from it.

2.) I sweetspotted the ledge with my grapple but Fox was already on the ledge and I let myself dangle because I was afraid of getting bair edgeguarded if I jumped up early. I know it's a pretty free shine for Fox if I ever do that but in my head all I was thinking of was that bair. I'm going to have to train myself to risk getting hit by that in order to avoid the almost guaranteed shine.

3.) Something general I noticed was that I spam uptilt after one connects against fastfallers because I played Marth for so long and Link's behaves deceptively similar to Marth's so I think they'll continue to combo into another utilt when they won't. I saw in that Germ vs. Connor set that around 30-35% I need to u-tilt>dsmash Fox or else he'll end up teching away I think.

4.) Speaking of dsmash, I don't think I'm using it enough when I should be. I tend to try to string bair into utilt often at low percents where my opponents have time to shield the utilt or jab/grab me before it reaches them.

I missed quite a few inputs during that set so I need to spend more time just practicing tech but after I took Fox's second stock in game 2 I think I regained my composure a bit and played closer to (if not at) the best of my ability.

I'd like to hear any input about my set that you have that I missed. I also want to know what people think of the conclusions I drew from my analysis and if they agree or disagree or can add anything to what I came up with. I think what I need the most help with is avoiding waveshines. I think I should have struck FD first but I didn't want to get camped on DL. I think banning DL gave away that I didn't want to play on a big stage which prompted him to ban Yoshi's, which is where I would have liked to strike to. How do you guys strike against Fox in general?
 
Thor

Thor

Smash Champion
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SAUS said:
Someone made a gif for my 0-death combo on Waz :D
http://gfycat.com/FearfulJealousDodobird

Also my first set against Waz was actually winner's quarters, I'm pretty sure.
Click to expand...
Do you know how to add images/gifs to one's signature? I would like to make this gif (preferable the gif itself, and not just the URL] my signature, but I'm not quite clear on how to do that. I should probably ask a mod or something, but if you know then I don't have to do that.

In relation to other posts:

In general, I find Battlefield to be one of the best stages vs Fox - I don't have much trouble hookshotting battlefield, and Fox can't ride up the sides, so I can knock him under the lip, he either has to do that insanely hard autosweetspot tech (which is I think literally frame perfect) or else he's gotta tech up+B semispike or he's dead [and that's stupid hard on BF]. The platforms allow for some camping and breaking of Fox camping while making uair combos a lot easier and more likely. I like DL vs Fox because I tend to survival DI like few others [I usually live to at least 180% vs Marth if they aren't getting the gimps [and often over 200% vs Falco], and I've lived to 290% vs one Marth [and he killed me via offstage dair, since his crosstage non-tipper bair at ~280% didn't KO me for whatever reason XD]. I don't tend to strike there often because very few people strike Battelfield (and thus it's open), but I'll take an aggressive Fox there for breathing space and living longer. I don't tend to like Yoshi's much, but I'm starting to like it more for being able to cover most of the stage with up+b and being able to recover from shinespikes (as one can on FoD) w/out jumps thanks to hookshot. FoD I think isn't great because the dair is less useful for KOing, but that's also true of Fox usmash and it has the blastzones ideal for Up+B OoS. FD is obnoxious vs people who waveshine and leaves you w/out platforms but it can work well vs people who platform camp and it also limits their recovery options. If you like Yoshi's, I'd say in general Yoshis > BF > FoD > DL = FD, so strike FD first and DL second. Hope if they strike first they don't strike Yoshi's/BF, so that you can force them to pick between the two. For banning, you probably ban PS or FD, as DL's top platform is still amazing for breaking camping and continuing combos if they DI in onto the platform (uair them from below or dair their tech from above).

When you semispike a spacie at low percent, you should usually grab ledge. At around 2:21:30 or so in game 1, you get a semispike at like 10% and try to jab. Grabbing ledge will basically always kill them if they have no jump (especially Falco). If they do DJ, you can still grab ledge, OR you can go for dtilt, which meteors AND hits lower than up+b does, as landing another up+B is extremely unlikely (Except if they're below the ledge on BF and start the up+B too high, another reason I favor that stage vs spacies). If you tip the dtilt, you can still nair or fair them back off.

Whenever I am KO range of spacie usmash (you were at the end of game 2) and I fsmash a shield at point-blank range such that they are in OoS usmash range, I almost always (probably > 90%) go for fsmash2 very quickly, in order to try to push them back out of usmash range. Usmash has a minimum 8 frames of startup, and doing fsmash2 immediately after fsmash1 is +5 on shield, so hitting it anywhere in the next 12 frames (Even if they're frame perfect) will either stuff their input via shieldhitlag or just straight up fsmash2 them. But forcing the opponent to wavedash OoS usmash is generally better than letting them just usmash you for free (unless they're respecting fsmash2, at which point it's a 50-50 if they usmash you or you get shield up in time vs fsmashing them and letting them wavedash OoS you).

I play very differently from you and SAUS (and probably not in a good way...), but those are my opinions on striking and two notes I had about a few situations where I figure you could make another choice that would probably give better results.
 
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Team Plasma N

Team Plasma N

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Hey guys, I'm a scrub in Melee (and Project M, but these are the Melee boards), and have mained Link since 64. I got 3 vids of me playing Link.

vs KSic (Sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LytVFYno4uA&feature=youtu.be

vs koopaspal (Ganon/Falco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-hHPjDk9VA&feature=youtu.be

vs MGN1 (Falco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNjlsKGIlUQ&feature=youtu.be

I'm looking for any constructive criticism to help improve my game. There appears to be some input mistakes on my part such as unwanted bows and unwanted aerial up+bs. It seems that there are some players (typically a Fox or a Falco) that I legitimately cannot touch and just don't know what to do against them. I personally felt I got lucky in the three videos posted above. I'll try to get more videos, criticism is appreciated.
 
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