Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[Jack Kieser]

wait, what?
you can counterpick items?
i don't understand

Whew, now that the afternoon rush is over with, I can explain this. First of all, I'd like to direct you to this thread; it is the discussion thread for the actual ruleset we use for entire tournaments, as opposed to this thread (which is for debating item rulings). All of the real in-depth info is there.

As for your question... it works just like counterpicking stages. Here is the progression of a basic ISP set:

1st Match:

Item Bans (1 each) - We allow each player to ban a single item (either neutral or CP) from the entirety of the set; this is optional, however, and is not required.
Stage Bans (1 each) - See the above sentence, but replace 'item' with 'stage'.
Double-Blind Character Selection - Each player tells a neutral party who they plan on using for the first match; the players choose their characters on-screen and the neutral party(s) confirm that neither player has switched his/her choice.
Match Begin (Neutral Stage, Neutral Items) - The 1st match begins. The match is played on a randomly selected stage from the approved neutral list and the only items active are items considered 'neutral' by 'ISP'.

2nd Match (and on):
Loser Item Slob Pick (1) - The loser of the previous round switches one item on the list either on or off; available items are in the neutral and counterpick lists, but banned items cannot be turned on at any time.
Winner Item Slob Pick (1) - The winner of the previous round switches an item of his/her choosing, just like the loser did before.
Loser Item Slob Pick (1) - The loser of the previous match gets to switch the status of an item one more time.
Loser Picks Stage - Stage is selected by the loser of the previous round; cannot pick a stage he won on in any previous round of the set.
Winner Picks Character - Self-explanatory.
Loser Picks Character - See above.
Match Begins - See above.

And so on and so forth.

 

[Zamuel]

One request I have is to move Smash Balls from Banned to Counterpick. I say this so that more testing may be done with Smash Balls in a tournament setting. Granted, the power of most Final Smashes makes this a controversial suggestion but I'm making the argument out of comparison to the Dragoon (which is in the Counterpick list) in the aspect that while the free OHKO can be broken, you have to "earn" it by actively engaging your opponent and then setup that hit.

 

[Swordplay]

characters with projectiles and speed have advantage with smash balls as they can break it by using those advantages.

With smash balls it would throw everything off. SONIC WOULD BE A GOD good final smash and speed to get to it.

Im not buying smash balls as coutner

 

[Jack Kieser]

Actually, Sonic's Final Smash is very overrated. Spot and Air Dodges absolutely destroy it, so anyone who has practiced its timing can dodge it rather easily.

 

[Zamuel]

True, "driveby" dash tactics with Super Sonic are easy to dodge. Personally I find it easier to dodge than PK Starstorm. He gets dangerous when someone purposely moves slowly with him and just stays right on top of you allowing a hit when you come out of the dodge animation. It's not easy to do that due to Super Sonic's speed.

The ability to item ban during Counterpick will prevent a few of the more broken Final Smashes since either a player will strike it from the set or they will change character to better utilize the Smash Ball. Swordplay does have a point that speed and projectiles tend to help alot in getting Smash Balls but they aren't impossible to get around. Due to the quirks of Smash Balls (which are oddly comparable to the Power Stones as opposed to traditional supers) it almost needs its own Counterpick rule separate from the rest of the items.

 

[Mike87]

This is is a prettty good read, thanks for posting.

 

[Amarkov]

One request I have is to move Smash Balls from Banned to Counterpick. I say this so that more testing may be done with Smash Balls in a tournament setting. Granted, the power of most Final Smashes makes this a controversial suggestion but I'm making the argument out of comparison to the Dragoon (which is in the Counterpick list) in the aspect that while the free OHKO can be broken, you have to "earn" it by actively engaging your opponent and then setup that hit.

No. Final smashes are inherently stupid. Yes, it takes work to get them, but it's considerably easier than getting a Dragoon. It's not nearly hard enough to justify getting a free stock (remember, the argument behind putting Dragoon on counterpick is that it might not be a free stock).

Even worse, final smashes are not equally good. On one end, you have Falco and Sonic, who can potentially take TWO stocks off you. And on the other end, you have Mario, DK, Ness, Lucas, Lucario, and ZSS, whose final smashes may not even hit you. Some items have varying usefulness depending on which character you're playing (ray gun with Wolf comes to mind), but that is just too much.

 

[Onomanic]

hm now that I think about it, i might only play with food lol

 

[Onomanic]

but whatever. like i said before this is a good idea but seriously, assist trophies/pokeball for counter picks? hmm.....

 

[Jack Kieser]

I was talking to one TO who was experimenting with 1v1 Smash Balls, and she told me that one thing she was looking into was placing a limit to the number of FS's that could be activated per round. She works mainly large-scale tourneys with high attendance and plenty of staff, though, so this might be only feasible on the macro scale, but it is still something to think about.

As of now, I can't say that Smash Balls are for 1v1, at least without disregarding the ISP's own balance criterion, but I think they will be on in 2v2 (probably CP); they add a LOT to the 2v2 game, believe it or not, and I'm just open-minded enough to give them a shot.

 

[Zamuel]

While they do add to the 2v2 game, there's a number of quirks with the way they work in teams that sets things up differently. Some Final Smashes, primarily for Meta Knight, Jigglypuff, and Olimar, still have knockback on your partner and/or deal damage regardless of whether or not Friendly Fire is on. Olimar's get particularly dangerous since the initial afterburner blast can't be dodged. A whole lot of things will need to be taken into account when testing Smash Balls for 2v2.

 

[Amarkov]

2v2 does nothing but make some final smashes worse (good luck not KOing your teammate with Waddle Dee Army). Marth's still can kill you at 0%, and Mario's still can't do anything useful.

Normally, it makes sense to see things in tournament play before declaring them broken. But something that changes from an OHKO to a 20% MAXIMUM damage hit (good luck getting even that much damage with Finale) is quite clearly unbalanced under any circumstances.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'll respond to the two above posts at the same time:

Frankly, most people hold a lot of misconceptions about Final Smashes in competitive play because they are always turned off in tournaments, but they actually can add a lot of depth and strategy (especially to team play)... if they are implemented correctly.

For instance, many of the previously 'broken' Final Smashes become very balanced in 2v2 play; take the Landmaster, for instance. What used to be considered a 2-stock rapemachine is now very risky to use, as the chances of KO'ing your partner (like Amarkov mentioned with Dedede's FS) is high. This is important for a few reasons:

A ) It is always your decision to use a Final Smash. If you feel that you might KO your teammate, you always have the option to not use your 'B' move. If you aren't willing to either lock out your neutral-B or use your Final Smash, then you probably shouldn't be going after the Smash Ball.

B ) AoE (area of effect) properties are attached to every Final Smash, which creates the need for teams to be well-coodinated above what is required in normal 2v2 play. If you randomly throw out Marth's FS on your opponent while your teammate is attacking/holding/standing nearby, you will kill him. Discretion MUST be used when determining when/if you should use your FS, because if your teammate isn't ready, you probably will hit him.

C ) No FS is undodgable. Some may be really hard to dodge (Landmaster), but that applies to both friend and foe, so it adds to the above rule. What this also means is that a well-coordinated team will practice dodging each other's FS's and will be able to do so in a tournament match.

 

[Swordplay]

For reasons like that I believe that the 2v2 N/C/B list will be awesome and I can't wait for it to come out as I am as much a doubles fan as I am a singles

 

[MarKO X]

Competitive matches with items. That would be great, especially considering the fact that my 2 favorite broken items (lipstick and star rod) are considered neutral. How are they broken? Let us count the ways:

1) With most characters, you can spam the A button with the lipstick and the opponent wil automatically soke up a ******** amount of damage for getting hit with a bunch of attacks that lack any lag. You can also juggle with it by throwing and catching it, then throwing it again, and next thing you know, the opponent got hit 5 times and has 89% damage. For what? Lipstick?

2) Star Rod gives range to every character with 20 free stars as projectiles. That's nice, and it ain't that bad. But what makes the Star Rod broken is that it delivers a hellofalotof knockback when thrown, with KO potential at about 80% or so precent, give or take depending on character recovery, weight, etc.

But I love playing with items. And as far as Smash Balls go... I think they should be allowed, as they do add a new level of strategy for Smash when they show up. Someone mentioned a limit on how many you could activate, which would make for some craaaaaaaaazy strategy in terms of the use of the Smash Ball, no matter how broken a Final Smash may be, a Smash limit (like, say, I dunno, 1 per match) would be awesome.

But yeah, let me know about 2v2 items rules, because 2v2 matches with items are just oh so lovely...

 

[Psychoace]

I was talking to one TO who was experimenting with 1v1 Smash Balls, and she told me that one thing she was looking into was placing a limit to the number of FS's that could be activated per round. She works mainly large-scale tourneys with high attendance and plenty of staff, though, so this might be only feasible on the macro scale, but it is still something to think about.

As of now, I can't say that Smash Balls are for 1v1, at least without disregarding the ISP's own balance criterion, but I think they will be on in 2v2 (probably CP); they add a LOT to the 2v2 game, believe it or not, and I'm just open-minded enough to give them a shot.

I don't think putting a limit on final smash uses would work because the ball would just continue to float around. Unless it disappears after a while, if it does than tell me and disregard this comment. If it did continue to float around what would you do if you randomly hit the smash ball on accident? Even if you are skilled **** does happen, then it kinda puts you at a disadvantage if you just say don't use your b moves then.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I don't think putting a limit on final smash uses would work because the ball would just continue to float around. Unless it disappears after a while, if it does than tell me and disregard this comment. If it did continue to float around what would you do if you randomly hit the smash ball on accident? Even if you are skilled **** does happen, then it kinda puts you at a disadvantage if you just say don't use your b moves then.

Actually, the Smash Ball does just go away after about 15-20 seconds of not being broken open, IIRC. I know it will just disappear after so long, but I can't remember how long exactly.

As for not being able to use your Neutral B, yeah, that sucks, but that's the risk you take with turning on Smash Balls (they would be CP, so they would only be active if a player turns them on). And, I've never heard of someone accidentally opening a Smash Ball; I'd actually like to see that.

 

[MarKO X]

Actually, the Smash Ball does just go away after about 15-20 seconds of not being broken open, IIRC. I know it will just disappear after so long, but I can't remember how long exactly.

As for not being able to use your Neutral B, yeah, that sucks, but that's the risk you take with turning on Smash Balls (they would be CP, so they would only be active if a player turns them on). And, I've never heard of someone accidentally opening a Smash Ball; I'd actually like to see that.

If you play with items, and you chuck it at someone and someone dodges it, then a Smash Ball can open by accident. Certain Items are also much more effective at breaking open a Smash Ball than regular attacks (e.g. bat, star rod, beam sword, green shell, warp star), and that would eliminate the problem that certain characters have in breakin them (*cough cough* Sonic!!!)

So Smash Balls would definitely have to be tested fully, both with and without limits.

 

[Psychoace]

Yeah, i've yet to see it, but I think somewhere at some point in time it'll happen, probably already has. You don't see it floating under the stage or something and say your someone strong like ganondorf and you go to fsmash your opponent only to be rewarded with a smash ball lol.

 

[slickmasterizzy]

i dont know if its flaming but.

lets say king ddd and fox are next to each other

a X item spawns across the map.

is there any doubt that fox would always be able to outrun DDD and get it?

i dunno this forum just seems to only consider the items itself and not that slower characters have much more difficult time to get items. whenever people want to play with items on i just pick a fast character. avoid combat with them and run around picking items up and owning them with em.

 

[adumbrodeus]

i dont know if its flaming but.

lets say king ddd and fox are next to each other

a X item spawns across the map.

is there any doubt that fox would always be able to outrun DDD and get it?

i dunno this forum just seems to only consider the items itself and not that slower characters have much more difficult time to get items. whenever people want to play with items on i just pick a fast character. avoid combat with them and run around picking items up and owning them with em.

Tiers exist, even in this format.

Though differences between usefulness for different characters does result in items getting banned or counterpicked (timer...), the general rule that some characters has an easier time getting items is simply an admission that tiers exist even in this format.

There is a risk/reward ratio in the legal items to balance things out, but tiers exist. End of story.

 

[MarKO X]

Here are 4 1v1 matches with items on.
Everything except the fan, the Bob-omb, the Soccer Ball, and the Blast Box are on.
The items are on medium. (which they shouldn't be for an official tournament, low they should exist)
I play Marth in Matches 2 and 4. Watch the potential effectiveness (and brokenness) of certain items.

Match 1
Match 2
Match 3
Match 4 (Long intro: Match starts in 42 seconds)

 

[TheSandBoxHero]

Here's the thing that I don't get. When you play with items on, it changes the tier list in favor of speedier characters, correct? After all, with items, the ability to quickly run after them when they spawn should be considered when talking about how effective each character is.

So, that's exactly what would happen if you included smash balls. It wouldn't break the tier lists, just change them. There's a new variable to account for, and one that honestly was always meant to be accounted for by the game designers. Smash balls weren't supposed to all be equal, they were supposed to play a part in the whole balancing scheme.

Besides that, if you're playing with all sorts of items and set on low, then you're going to see what, maybe one smash ball per game? So it's not like it's this gigantic, game breaking deal. Hypothetically, say that King Dedede has by far the best final smash in the game, and Diddy Kong's is the worst. Also say that they are by far the slowest and fastest characters in the game, respectively, but they are otherwise perfeclty even. Playing with the items this topic suggests, but including smash balls, whose favor is the battle tipped towards?

While Dedede has the possible opportunity to get a "cheap" KO maybe once in the match, because of his speed Diddy is much more likely to actually get the smash ball in the first place, and also has a great advantage when it comes to running towards items as they spawn. Also, there is much less risk for Diddy to pick up the items in the first place, since Dedede isn't quick enough to get to him in time to punish him. On the reverse side of that, Diddy can quickly close the gap to punish Dedede when he tried for an item.

 

[Swordplay]

I've been waiting......when will the 2v2 list come out?

I know some things that were "overpowered" in 1v1 will not be in 2v2 because you can kill your ally.

The list should be different and I know you are working on it. When do you think you will have it done?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Here's the thing that I don't get. When you play with items on, it changes the tier list in favor of speedier characters, correct? After all, with items, the ability to quickly run after them when they spawn should be considered when talking about how effective each character is.

So, that's exactly what would happen if you included smash balls. It wouldn't break the tier lists, just change them. There's a new variable to account for, and one that honestly was always meant to be accounted for by the game designers. Smash balls weren't supposed to all be equal, they were supposed to play a part in the whole balancing scheme.

Besides that, if you're playing with all sorts of items and set on low, then you're going to see what, maybe one smash ball per game? So it's not like it's this gigantic, game breaking deal. Hypothetically, say that King Dedede has by far the best final smash in the game, and Diddy Kong's is the worst. Also say that they are by far the slowest and fastest characters in the game, respectively, but they are otherwise perfeclty even. Playing with the items this topic suggests, but including smash balls, whose favor is the battle tipped towards?

While Dedede has the possible opportunity to get a "cheap" KO maybe once in the match, because of his speed Diddy is much more likely to actually get the smash ball in the first place, and also has a great advantage when it comes to running towards items as they spawn. Also, there is much less risk for Diddy to pick up the items in the first place, since Dedede isn't quick enough to get to him in time to punish him. On the reverse side of that, Diddy can quickly close the gap to punish Dedede when he tried for an item.

It's because of risk/reward ratio. The fact is, luck DOES play a role in item spawns, and Final Smashes are so powerful (in general) that a lucky spawn tips the entire game. Games just aren't and can't be long enough for that kind of balance to work effectively. That's why every item has to have a reasonable risk/reward ratio, so lucky spawns don't destroy matches.


Furthermore, some characters have final smashes that are powerful enough that allowing them means that said characters put Akuma (SF 2 Turbo) to shame whenever the smash ball appears (spacies). This leaves you with two choices, ban those chars, or ban smash balls. Generally, we prefer to leave characters alone, so smash balls it is.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'm sorry, Swordplay! I really am; this has been a terrible week for me and gaming, as my entire family has left for Europe (my sister is going to school there), and I am left alone to take care of:

A ) the house
B ) two (2) dogs
C ) a business (we own one)
D ) a 6-day workout schedule

So, yeah... I haven't had any time so far to play with Team Healers (I don't feel comfortable making a judgment on them without having played matches/experimented/ran tests with them on), and even if I did this weekend (I don't; defensive driving ARRG) the computer that has all of the other 2v2 impression for other items is on a computer that I won't have access to until Monday. So, yeah...

Again, I'm really sorry to all. If anyone can provide solid data on the Team Healer, it would be a BIG help.

 

[TimeSmash]

2 v. 2 play with Smash Balls at least helps this item maybe make it in, but there are still alot of factors to be thought of:

Pro's:

-If you have an ally knock an opponent into you, it makes it easier to use close up FSs. This can also help powered up characters like Wario-Man or Giga Bowser get more hits in. But DI is also a factor, so this can vary.
-Allies can open up uses for Horizontal FS Kills if they knock the enemy in your range.
-Peach's FS expands because you can heal ally as well.
-You don't have to always beon the offensive. FSs can help defend a partner in high percents. Hiding behind Landmaster is a fine example, but this might promote camping for projectile spammers.
-FSs where the camera zooms in on the character (ZSS, Pokemon Trainer) help somewhat because they make the opponent(s) not see what they're doing at all if they're out of frame, but then again you can't either. Once again, camping can screw with this point.
-If your opponent(s) are stuck in an FS like Link's, you can use projectiles to safetly add more damage. But this is basically camping, and would be hard to do since it's tough to catch two people in on Fs, especially the close-ups.

Con's:

-There's always and idiot Marth who can either kill himself of his teamate.
-You still have the potential to Star KO someone with the Landmaster, failing that shooting your ally if they're near an opponent. (Simple solution to later, though, Don't shoot.)
-You can catch multiple people in a FS. Examples are using Link/Toon Link's FS near an opponent but sucking an ally in as well. Cook Kirby can also be considered.
-Neutral B forbidden when you obtain Smash Ball. This can mess with players/characters who use B often, such as Pit or ZSS. However, people can adapt to this.
-Negative Zone is to be considered, too. If you catch an ally in, and they're over a pit, they can fall helplessly to their death. Luigi's FS is a bit of a Wild Card as well, because many times you can escape it before anything happens, but your ally get stuck taunting , or sleeping or WHATEVER and won't that be fun when the enemy throws a heavy-hitting projectile at them?
-Already said, moves like Waddle Dee Army, PK Starstorm, and in some situations Palutena's Army, many FSs can backfire and end up hurting allies more than opponents. However, many of these can be avoided, some more than others. Hard to control moves also apply with this. Actualy, pretty much all FSs do, so one must have correct spacing and DI even moreso than usual, since they're evading a potential three killers (if their ally has the Smash Ball).
-Some FSs are so ridiculously easy to avoid (Mario) they don't even help at all. While your comrade is using their FS, you're off somewhere else getting pumelled in a spot where nobody's harmed by the FS.


Only a few thoughts, Smash Balls heavily debated. Please don't flame me, but debate if you wish.

Also, sorry about grammar errors. Many keys don't feel like working today.

 

[Swordplay]

since you are kind of bogged down then let us help you out by discussing 2v2 items.

Ill start off by saying that I think in 2v2 Smash balls should be counter pick. for 2 reasons

1. They are smash balls and every character as different final smashes so no neutral

2. The more powerful smashes in 1v1 can hurt your ally more in 2v2 which balances it out slightly more.

3. This should be discussed to further detail.


I suppose I would like to put team healer as neutral seeing how it is a very strategic item and requires a great deal of teamwork to use it properly.

leave all the healing items other than food (except for team healer which was not listed) where they are as they will play similar to how they did in 1v1

I'll continue to test out other items but those are my thoughts for now.


ON a side note... I don't see any 1v1 neutral items going to counter pick/ban or counter pick items going to ban.

Because you can hurt your ally I feel that it will work the other way around in the sense that abused items will become more usable and usable items won't change that much unless something crazy where to happen

 

[-Linko-]

since you are kind of bogged down then let us help you out by discussing 2v2 items.

Ill start off by saying that I think in 2v2 Smash balls should be counter pick. for 2 reasons

1. They are smash balls and every character as different final smashes so no neutral

2. The more powerful smashes in 1v1 can hurt your ally more in 2v2 which balances it out slightly more.

3. This should be discussed to further detail.


I suppose I would like to put team healer as neutral seeing how it is a very strategic item and requires a great deal of teamwork to use it properly.

leave all the healing items other than food (except for team healer which was not listed) where they are as they will play similar to how they did in 1v1

I'll continue to test out other items but those are my thoughts for now.


ON a side note... I don't see any 1v1 neutral items going to counter pick/ban or counter pick items going to ban.

Because you can hurt your ally I feel that it will work the other way around in the sense that abused items will become more usable and usable items won't change that much unless something crazy where to happen

Today I was playing teamed Brawl, with ISPs lists and Team Healers.

Suddendly, a Team Healer appeared, my teammate picked it up, threw it to me... But I didn't heal, instead I got hit by it! It did me some 20% damage. Is this reason for a ban, or will it give more reasons for being neutral (high risk high reward)?

 

[MysticKenji]

EDIT:

Team Healer tests

Stage: Random each time from the 5 Neutrals
Characters: Random each time

Test 1: 6 heals / 4 hurts

Test 2: 4 heals / 6 hurts

Test 3: 5 heals / 5 hurts
Team Red always healed
Team Blue always hurt

Test 4: 8 heals / 2 hurts
Team Red always healed

Test 5: 3 heals / 7 hurts

Conclusion: It's random.

 

[MarKO X]

Whoa Whoa Whoa Whoa Whoa Whoa Whoa Whoa...

The Team Healer... can hurt you?!?!?!

That's AWESOME!!! Combine that with tripping, clocks that slow down the person that got it, Lightning that makes the opponent bigger, and Pokeballs with Goldeen in them... this game is excellent.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, so I finally finished the 2v2 list; it's almost the same as the 1v1 list, plus a few changes here and there. It's a more liberal list because 2v2 play is generally a more liberal format, so there you go. I'll post the changes to the match rules in the Tourney Discussion thread later on today (just changes to the item counterpick order and things like that).

So, questions, comments, concerns, discussion, and debate is welcome (as always). Let us know what you think!

 

[Swordplay]

Wow nice job.....It is finally done and it looks awesome....

In 2v2 I think AT's and pokeballs act alot like a smash ball in the fact that once activated your teammate also runs the risk of being hurt by the attacks.

There were counter pick before and could be neutral but since they are so similar to smashballs and so random in there rewards like smashballs counter pick might be good for now.

Neutral has a argument to though because unlike smashballs you cannot control an AT or pokeball like a smashball because (smash balls...you control when to activate and how to use.)

AT's You control neither (auto activation)

Pokeballs. You only control when to activate.

High reward ones in 1v1 play for the same reason as smash balls can hurt your ally in 2v2 play. and since you have much less control over them it makes them much more balanced.

I would throw this out there for debate (no change yet)
I also like to see Issac.......

By the way...this 2v2 list is looking awesome.....do you think you should seperate the 1v1 list from the 2v2 or leave the changes for a 2v2 item under the 1v1.......I can see both ways happening.

Thoughts?

 

[DKKountry]

Pretty neat concept here. I know all the people who like playing with items on in a competitive manner will really have fun with this.

All the explanations for the items and their status are very good, the only one I think should be reconsidered is the Pitfall, simply because of the way the description of it's status presents it.

It says it's okay because of the fact that it recreates DK's forwardB; an already established Smash move. The problem I see is that DK's headbutt is more difficult to land than a thrown item. I suggest that it may be accomplishing the same task as DK's headbutt except with much less risk since all you have to do is throw the Pitfall, whereas DK has to pull back and leave himself wide open for a second. Plus, the headbutt is very close-range, where as the Pitfall is long-range.

That's my only suggestion, other than that, great job on the project!

 

[Guilhe]

Great thread

I have loved it because the standardization is going to bring the items to Brawl’s competitive scenario and all the strategies that come with it. Here are my suggestions for the list

Dragoon [BANNED]
I don’t see the point in adding the Dragoon to the counterpick list, it has no strategic value. The players will play as normally as they would (now with no items, how lame) until someone collects all the three pieces and gets a potential OHKO.

Beam Sword [COUNTERPICK]
Ike playing with Beam sword is lethal, his attacks with are quick and powerful. As long as he keeps the sword, he won’t have to worry so much with his laggy nature

Cracker launcher [BANNED]
It is easy to master Cracker launcher aiming and besides it got a lot of round to spare anyway. The only problem is that any hit (even projectile) will make the user drop the weapon. But if the opponent doesn’t have any projectile available, an approaching is nearly impossible.

Gooey bomb [BANNED]
This item does not add sufficient strategy value to warrant its place on the list. It is a throw and forget, inconvenient spamming item that probably will stall the match when used.

Unira [NEUTRAL]
It isn’t that much difficult to deactivate a Unira and the pressure that can be applied by the strategic placement of a Unira makes it deserve its place on the list.

 

[eroninja562]

I'm still a noob in this site, but, great analysis!

 

[ThaPhantom07]

Cool thread. I pretty much agree with all the item evaluations. If I played with items I'd definetly use this ruleset.

 

[FoxFtw]

That isnt true, I play a very good Olimar, and he doesnt rely on throwing pikmin the whole match...

 

[Zephramrill]

Incredible Job! I am going to apply some of these items to my own games with my brother. (currently we use no items 9.5/10 and all items .5/10) Sheer Brilliance!

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, I'm certainly glad to hear such votes of confidence. Thanks to everyone who has supported the project thus far. I'm just glad we were finally able to get both lists online... that took forever.