Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

[Plunder]

You're imagining things, unless the landing lag after an L-Cancel is less than the normal time for someone to land from a jump (2 frames for Pichu, 4 frames for everyone not listed, 5 frames for DK and Ganon, and 6 frames for Boswer).

No...... actually I just went and recorded both at 60 FPS, then went back in an editor to count the frames. With AC'ed aerials I noticed that you have to wait the entire jump recovery animation until you can platform drop. Same goes for just a normal land from an empty jump onto a platform until you can platform drop.

So, I am not imagining this ( at least with DK and Sheik who I just tried it with), I'm able to jump or do any action after the normal jump landing lag (or AC aerial landing lag)....but can't platform drop until the whole jump landing animation finishes,

Never had really used a character with easy AC aerials so I never noticed this weird phenomenon.

 

[-ACE-]

I just tested this with Ganon and it feels to be true. Wow. Good thing it doesn't apply to shield drops.

 

[Sycorax]

I tried googling and looking around but can't find data on this...

When I auto-cancel an aerial and then try and platform drop it seems like I have to wait a lot longer than just an L-cancelled aerial into a platform drop. Anyone have specifics on this? Or am I imagining things...

Spak , actually, he's not imagining things. You cannot drop through a platform while in the Landing animation which is 30 frames long. Kadano calls it an impact landing. If you press down during the first 4 frames of Landing, you'll enter SquatWait (the crouching animation) upon exiting the standard 4 frames of uncancelable impact-landing lag. If you press down while in Landing but after those initial 4 frames, you won't do anything. You'll go through the whole Landing animation. This may have been a programming quirk or maybe they did it on purpose.

When you drop through a platform from Wait, you enter Squat first (the beginning of the crouching animation) and then Pass as you pass through the platform. The fact that you can't enter Squat out of Landing may be the reason you can't drop through.

This weird mechanic is why Isai dropping is useful. You can cancel the Landing animation after 4 frames with any action you want (besides Squat T_T) so you cancel it by walking forward. Then, out of walk, you drop through the platform since you're allowed to enter Squat out of Walk (and then subsequently, Pass).

L-cancel landing lag works differently though. It happens, you're completely inactionable during it, and you enter Wait afterwards. So after and L-cancel you can just press down and pass through.

 

[tauKhan]

My theory is that Squat is not allowed in impact land because of aesthetic reasons: it would perhaps look weird if the char went back and forth quickly from landing to Squat, since landing puts the characters into a position that looks very similar to crouch. The char would "crouch" when landing, then immediately get up almost standing to the starting position of Squat only to crouch down again. Making the SquatWait happen immediately is kind of natural. Not making a special case to allow you to drop down through the plat in the situation might be a developer oversight though.

I just tested this with Ganon and it feels to be true. Wow. Good thing it doesn't apply to shield drops.

Actually for shield drops the reverse is kind of true: it's easier to shield drop when autocanceling, because Landing doesn't allow direct spot dodge, whereas you can spot dodge immediately after l-cancel lag ends. This makes timing down input right to shield drop a 2 frame window in the former case and 1 frame in the latter.

 

[-ACE-]

T tauKhan I'm confused. You said the reverse is true but I feel like we just said the same thing, lol. Oh well, I just woke up. All I really can say is that after a AC aerial it looked like I got my shield up quicker than with an L-cancel.

Edit: AERIAL, not radial. Lol. Swype text.

 

[Baltimarth]

Is Marth naturally bad against mid and low tiers such as Young Link, Luigi, and Zelda? I've been destroyed by these 3 characters at the 3 last Xanadus I went to. I was very angry last night when I was bodied by a Peach main who was using Zelda as a secondary, I got absolutely ****ing destroyed. I kept on getting grabs to up airs and up tilts but Zelda just didn't let up and knew how to counteract every approach I attempted.

 

[tauKhan]

T tauKhan I'm confused. You said the reverse is true but I feel like we just said the same thing, lol. Oh well, I just woke up. All I really can say is that after a AC radial it looked like I got my shield up quicker than with an L-cancel.

Oh, I just worded that badly. I meant that platform dropping normally after autocancel is harder than after l-cancel, while the opposite is true for shield drops. What you said is correct, and I just wanted to add something to it. My B

 

[Sycorax]

Is Marth naturally bad against mid and low tiers such as Young Link, Luigi, and Zelda? I've been destroyed by these 3 characters at the 3 last Xanadus I went to. I was very angry last night when I was bodied by a Peach main who was using Zelda as a secondary, I got absolutely ****ing destroyed. I kept on getting grabs to up airs and up tilts but Zelda just didn't let up and knew how to counteract every approach I attempted.

No, he's not naturally bad. He's still very good against them, but he's an honest character. You can't get by just pressing good buttons like you can with most of the rest of the top tiers. Marth thirives off solid fundamentals which people don't have at low levels and they don't have against characters they aren't familiar with. If you don't know the goals, intentions, and options of your opponent, it becomes harder to do the delicate spacing, timing, and mindgaming that allows Marth to win matchups. Marth wins through discipline and thoughtful play.

Young Link is pretty bad and not particularly good against Marth. His plan is to use lots of projectiles because all of his other moves just get CC'd or outspaced by Marth. Be aggressive so he can't pull bombs and throw boomerangs. You can react to bomb pulls with aggression. Dealing with boomerangs is a little harder, but basically shield, CC, hit them, or hit him before he throws one. But don't be dumb aggressive. Marth isn't good at pressure like Fox, Falco, or Peach. It's a zoning pressure.

Zelda is also super bad versus Marth. She only has two respectable moves so respect those and ignore the rest basically. Her fair and bair have comparable range to your moves so they beat yours or trade often. Be patient, wait for her to jump, and whiff punish. You're not really going to combo her and she can't combo you so you have to be smart enough to repeatedly win neutral and other situations more than she does. Avoid the kicks and you'll win. You can juggle her some though.

Luigi is much more complicated. He's a respectable character. The burst movement is scary. Zoning with dtilt and minimal dash dancing is best strategy. Avoid jumping as much as possible if Luigi is also on the ground. You can be sorta aggressive if you want to make his WD less useful (because it has long start up and is best at a distance). The goal is to get him into the air, and juggle him into an edge guard.

Just read up about fundamentals and Marth strategy in the Melee Library linked in my signature.

 

[Baltimarth]

No, he's not naturally bad. He's still very good against them, but he's an honest character. You can't get by just pressing good buttons like you can with most of the rest of the top tiers. Marth thirives off solid fundamentals which people don't have at low levels and they don't have against characters they aren't familiar with. If you don't know the goals, intentions, and options of your opponent, it becomes harder to do the delicate spacing, timing, and mindgaming that allows Marth to win matchups. Marth wins through discipline and thoughtful play.

Young Link is pretty bad and not particularly good against Marth. His plan is to use lots of projectiles because all of his other moves just get CC'd or outspaced by Marth. Be aggressive so he can't pull bombs and throw boomerangs. You can react to bomb pulls with aggression. Dealing with boomerangs is a little harder, but basically shield, CC, hit them, or hit him before he throws one. But don't be dumb aggressive. Marth isn't good at pressure like Fox, Falco, or Peach. It's a zoning pressure.

Zelda is also super bad versus Marth. She only has two respectable moves so respect those and ignore the rest basically. Her fair and bair have comparable range to your moves so they beat yours or trade often. Be patient, wait for her to jump, and whiff punish. You're not really going to combo her and she can't combo you so you have to be smart enough to repeatedly win neutral and other situations more than she does. Avoid the kicks and you'll win. You can juggle her some though.

Luigi is much more complicated. He's a respectable character. The burst movement is scary. Zoning with dtilt and minimal dash dancing is best strategy. Avoid jumping as much as possible if Luigi is also on the ground. You can be sorta aggressive if you want to make his WD less useful (because it has long start up and is best at a distance). The goal is to get him into the air, and juggle him into an edge guard.

Just read up about fundamentals and Marth strategy in the Melee Library linked in my signature.

thanks man I looked at your melee library and I'm set for life now!

 

[FE_Hector]

Does anybody have the information for the number of frames it takes for each character to be actionable after getting jab resetted? Would be quite nice to know. Also, 1000th post kreygasm.

 

[tauKhan]

Does anybody have the information for the number of frames it takes for each character to be actionable after getting jab resetted? Would be quite nice to know. Also, 1000th post kreygasm.

Get up actions can always be done as soon as on the 13th frame after the reset (even if you're in hitstun). Get up stand will be forced after hitstun runs out. If hitstun runs out before 13th frame, get up stand will happen on the 13th frame.

You can find the frame data for all the get up actions here: http://smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/#post-5896012

 

[smerchman]

does anybody know how to out space ices as falcon?

 

[Beach]

How does one cc grab? (Please tell me it isn't just crouch and press grab cause i'll probably cry)

 

[FE_Hector]

How does one cc grab? (Please tell me it isn't just crouch and press grab cause i'll probably cry)

Close. Crouch and the JC grab

 

[Stride]

How does one cc grab? (Please tell me it isn't just crouch and press grab cause i'll probably cry)

Close. Crouch and the JC grab

Either crouch cancel an attack and then grab, or crouch cancel while grabbing (grab then hold down, or grab while already holding down while in shield so it doesn't make you down tilt); I've heard it used for both. You don't have to jump cancel.

 

[FE_Hector]

Either crouch cancel an attack and then grab, or crouch cancel while grabbing (grab then hold down, or grab while already holding down while in shield so it doesn't make you down tilt); I've heard it used for both. You don't have to jump cancel.

Oh. I just CC a hit and then JC grab for a CC grab because that's what I thought you should do. Kinda just took the phrase "CC grab" and attempted to figure it out.

 

[Bones0]

Hold down to crouch, hold shield, and time your grab with A (or mash furiously just to get the hang of it).

Learn the differences between a crouch cancel and ground cancel (my phrase for ASDI down). Crouching reduces your KB and stun allowing you to counterattack sooner. Holding down on either stick will cause you to ASDI towards the ground, but this only works if the attack that hit you is strong enough to launch you. If you get launched and ASDI back down onto the ground, you will ground cancel, which basically means you suffer 4 frames of landing lag (the same animation you undergo when you empty land or autocancel an aerial). If you hold down the control stick to crouch cancel and don't let go during hitlag, you will also ASDI down, so understand when you are crouch cancelling, ground cancelling, both, or neither.

 

[tauKhan]

The reason shielding or jumping are used for cc grabs is that you can't grab during crouch (SquatWait) or when releasing the stick to stand up from crouch (SquatRv). It's also possible to cc -> walk or dash forward grab. Sometimes you have to cc -> dash (jc) grab to reach the opponent. On the other hand dashing can make you dash through the opponent and miss, so you have to recognise which option is correct.

It's technically possible to stop holding down with control stick after you get hit to not crouch out of the landing lag, but it's really hard since you have to do it after the launch frame when ASDI down is read and before landing lag ends 4 frames later.

Holding down on either stick will cause you to ASDI towards the ground, but this only works if the attack that hit you is strong enough to launch you.

Not exactly correct, since anything that sends you at above horizontal direction will launch you into air, but if the kb is very very weak, ground canceling won't occur. I still don't know the exact requirements for impact landing after a hit. Also spikes won't launch into air until they knock down, so it's more about angle than strength of the hit.

Works like what you said for Sakurai angled moves(which a large portion of moves are) though, since they spike grounded opponents when weak.

 

[Bones0]

Not exactly correct, since anything that sends you at above horizontal direction will launch you into air, but if the kb is very very weak, ground canceling won't occur. I still don't know the exact requirements for impact landing after a hit. Also spikes won't launch into air until they knock down, so it's more about angle than strength of the hit.

Works like what you said for Sakurai angled moves(which a large portion of moves are) though, since they spike grounded opponents when weak.

Can you give an example of an attack that launches you that you can't ground cancel? Does it happen by preventing ASDI down, or does it just prevent the 4-frame landing animation from occurring?

 

[tauKhan]

Can you give an example of an attack that launches you that you can't ground cancel? Does it happen by preventing ASDI down, or does it just prevent the 4-frame landing animation from occurring?

I can only think of moves that are weak enough when crouched at low%, many jabs for example. The victim just shifts from aerial hitstun into grounded hitstun, same thing that happens when you shine -> dair someone into the ground with falco. In a way it's like NIL vs impact land, and I suspect there might be something in common between them.

 

[Sempai]

does anybody know how to out space ices as falcon?

Outspace? Abuse your movement and camp platforms, space your nairs, fairs and DONT MISS THOSE LCANCELS or thats death.

If you nair and end up inside IC's you better have a roll buffered, or thats basically insta death.

 

[Clint Jaguar]

In the 20XX hack pack, how do I play stages by myself without a second player or CPU? I want to know this for tech skill practice and so I can play the target test levels without having a CPU follow me.

 

[Stride]

In the 20XX hack pack, how do I play stages by myself without a second player or CPU? I want to know this for tech skill practice and so I can play the target test levels without having a CPU follow me.

Version 3.02: up on the D-pad
Version 4.04 beta: hold Start

 

[Clint Jaguar]

Version 3.02: up on the D-pad
Version 4.04 beta: hold Start

Neither work.

 

[Spak]

Neither work.

If neither of the 20XX things work, you could always use the single player glitch:

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Single_Person_Melee

 

[Stride]

Neither work.

I presume you're using 4.xx beta and are trying to do it in stock mode instead of time mode (which isn't allowed since it just causes the game to end instantly), in which case you should do it in time mode. If that's not the case then I can only suggest rebuilding your .iso and hoping it works that time. Alternatively, you could use the normal debug menu (you'll have to use a non-20XX .iso with access to it) to start a game how you want, or use the single player glitch.

 

[RyseEX]

Does anyone know a thread that shows hitstun and one that shows shield stun

 

[Dolla Pills]

Does anyone know a thread that shows hitstun and one that shows shield stun

This seems like it would be useful
http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/

 

[Clint Jaguar]

I presume you're using 4.xx beta and are trying to do it in stock mode instead of time mode (which isn't allowed since it just causes the game to end instantly), in which case you should do it in time mode.

Yeah that was the problem. Thanks man!

 

[smerchman]

Outspace? Abuse your movement and camp platforms, space your nairs, fairs and DONT MISS THOSE LCANCELS or thats death.

If you nair and end up inside IC's you better have a roll buffered, or thats basically insta death.

thansk fam and good videos btw

 

[McLapras]

If I'm looking to sell/buy old CRTs where should I be looking?

One of my co-workers is an older gentleman and he's surprised to hear that gamers are still looking for CRTs. He says he has an old 37" that hes looking to replace, and I mentioned that maybe someone in the smash community might be interested. It is big/heavy though and I don't know if that will be a problem or not. He said he'll take exact dimensions and weight of the box when he gets home tonight. I'll have all of that tomorrow.

If this isn't the place for this please point me in the right direction. Thank you.

 

[Plunder]

If I'm looking to sell/buy old CRTs where should I be looking?

One of my co-workers is an older gentleman and he's surprised to hear that gamers are still looking for CRTs. He says he has an old 37" that hes looking to replace, and I mentioned that maybe someone in the smash community might be interested. It is big/heavy though and I don't know if that will be a problem or not. He said he'll take exact dimensions and weight of the box when he gets home tonight. I'll have all of that tomorrow.

If this isn't the place for this please point me in the right direction. Thank you.

Check your local game stores, anyplace that holds Melee/SSB64 smash tournaments, or the local facebook groups/college groups.

As far as price goes don't expect much at all unless you have a special type of CRT, and only people outside the smash community will probably care about those.

95% aren't worth more than $1-5 because that's how much you can find them for at literally any thrift shop or goodwill regardless of size or brand. In fact at any given time you can find 20+ free ones on craigslist just saying "will be out on curb come pick up". Most smashers want something they are able to carry (so usually like 12-26 inches).

Now I have a some experience repairing/buying/selling/trading CRTs, so this may be ancillary info to you but some can be worth a lot.
1. If you have a combo CRT that has a embedded VCR and/or DVD player I've sold some like that for $60-120, the remote included can add an extra 10-20.
2. I've acquired and sold 3 prison CRTs in the past 5 years. These are special clear body modified CRT TVs that some people collect or pay high dollar for the novelty. Prices are all over the place, but most people will never come across one in their lifetime so it's not worth going into.

 

[PKSkyler]

Who should I main, based on OoS options and pressure alone? Shiek Falco or Ganondorf. Also what are the best OoS moves, especially aerials, for those characters? Thanks!

 

[Brash Candihoot]

Who should I main, based on OoS options and pressure alone? Shiek Falco or Ganondorf. Also what are the best OoS moves, especially aerials, for those characters? Thanks!

Falco for shield pressure

Sheik has one of the best OOS aerials with her nair

Falco has fast oos options too, but jump is slower and his shine is small.

Ganons bair OOS is OK, dair OOS can work. Neither are really that great. His up b OOS has surprising range but is slow.
His dair and fair on sheild can be harder to punish, and his side b has a lot of pushback and shield stun (a lot of characters can't punish it on shield unless they have fast reflexes and wavedash optimally OOS)

Ganon can also sort of pressure with his jabs, but its not real.

 

[PKSkyler]

Falco for shield pressure

Sheik has one of the best OOS aerials with her nair

Falco has fast oos options too, but jump is slower and his shine is small.
Ganon....

Okay, thanks! My next question is what are Falco's Oos options, Shiek's best pressure tools aside from poking/zoning, and if/when/why Shiek would need something besides OoS sh nair. thanks again

 

[Brash Candihoot]

Okay, thanks! My next question is what are Falco's Oos options, Shiek's best pressure tools aside from poking/zoning, and if/when/why Shiek would need something besides OoS sh nair. thanks again

All frame data is here - http://smashboards.com/threads/out-of-shield-options-frame-data.294336/

Some even have helpful oos maps on reddit.

 

[Bones0]

http://ikneedata.com/heatmaps/oos/falco.html

 

[ArKlaV]

So as a former smash 4 player who is looking to switch to melee, any advice you could give to me? I will probably use marth, as I used him in SSB4, and I hear he is top-tier in melee, but I am still unsure.

 

[Sycorax]

So as a former smash 4 player who is looking to switch to melee, any advice you could give to me? I will probably use marth, as I used him in SSB4, and I hear he is top-tier in melee, but I am still unsure.

Melee Library - Google Docs

 

[Uzco Halal]

Found something very odd when playing recently, I've noticed it before but I thought I had made it up in my own mind at first.

Zelda's transcendent moves seem to be able to nullify other transcendent projectiles like Fox and Falco's Lasers sometimes.


I recently Bair'ed Falco's laser right as it was about to hit me and it completely cancelled it out. I was able to recreate this same situation with Zelda's Jab.....after TONS and TONS of tries. It appears that it's almost useless since you have to basically get the equivalent of a phantom where both transcendent hitboxes collide barely on their edges as they pass each other.

Does anyone know anything about this weirdness? I was always told that transcendent hitboxes cannot clank or cancel anything, even other transcendent hitboxes.