PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
I main Marth but should I still use Fox to get my tech skill down?
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Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!
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Bones0
Smash Legend
PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
Ok thanks bro
milligraham
Smash Apprentice
Just wondering does anyone have any tips for punishing/dealing with roll-happy friends? Specifically Sheik vs Fox/Marth/Ganon.
Their playstyles are weird, they aren't very technical. I guess you could say good/pretty good casual playstyle with a bit of advanced techniques depending on the person. They either can't WD consistently or don't even bother trying to so that's why they dodge roll a ton. I have noticed that this causes me to miss some grabs b/c of some of the times they roll (which im tired of.)
I assume the answers are gonna be stuff along the lines of reading when they roll and baiting out a roll.
I can beat them without too much trouble already (especially the more patient I become.) But I want to do a better job capitalizing on their dodge-rolling.
Their playstyles are weird, they aren't very technical. I guess you could say good/pretty good casual playstyle with a bit of advanced techniques depending on the person. They either can't WD consistently or don't even bother trying to so that's why they dodge roll a ton. I have noticed that this causes me to miss some grabs b/c of some of the times they roll (which im tired of.)
I assume the answers are gonna be stuff along the lines of reading when they roll and baiting out a roll.
I can beat them without too much trouble already (especially the more patient I become.) But I want to do a better job capitalizing on their dodge-rolling.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Roll away in neutral position is fairly hard to punish directly (you pretty much have to hard read it and dash through the position they're currently in; which obviously is a fairly committing choice). You gain stage though, which is always nice.
Roll towards you is ... well, start a combo from your favorite launcher if you're remotely waiting for it.
You shouldn't be "tired of their rolls", if they cause you to miss grabs. Because a roll that evades a grab, is pretty much doing its job quite perfectly (could've been a spotdodge, but we're not going to complain). Don't just run where they stand and grab. If all they do is roll to evade your approaches: Run close to their position, stop outside of their range, observe and act accordingly.
Roll towards you is ... well, start a combo from your favorite launcher if you're remotely waiting for it.
You shouldn't be "tired of their rolls", if they cause you to miss grabs. Because a roll that evades a grab, is pretty much doing its job quite perfectly (could've been a spotdodge, but we're not going to complain). Don't just run where they stand and grab. If all they do is roll to evade your approaches: Run close to their position, stop outside of their range, observe and act accordingly.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Dashdance or run into shield when you expect a roll. If they don't, you can grab a split second later. If they do, you just have to react fast enough and get them before their lag ends. Watch vids of M2K and see how he positions himself when anticipating dodges.
Fortress | Sveet
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Its about positioning, expectation and reaction. As sheik, you have plenty of tools to stop the shenanigans, though. You can really only punish rolls towards you on reaction, so thats what i'll talk about.
In order to punish the roll, you need to first position yourself so that you can hit them at the ending point of their roll. A good rule of thumb is to be halfway between their starting and ending points.
You must also understand when and why they roll. Everyone has different habits, so you're on your own. If you're stumped, ask yourself, "What am I doing before he rolls?" and "What is he doing before he rolls?"
The final aspect to punishing the roll is reaction. There are certain cases where punishing a roll is impossible. If you attack the start of the roll (and miss), you won't be able to shield before they can hit you. For sheik, your reaction will usually be either dsmash or ftilt, depending on the circumstances.
In order to punish the roll, you need to first position yourself so that you can hit them at the ending point of their roll. A good rule of thumb is to be halfway between their starting and ending points.
You must also understand when and why they roll. Everyone has different habits, so you're on your own. If you're stumped, ask yourself, "What am I doing before he rolls?" and "What is he doing before he rolls?"
The final aspect to punishing the roll is reaction. There are certain cases where punishing a roll is impossible. If you attack the start of the roll (and miss), you won't be able to shield before they can hit you. For sheik, your reaction will usually be either dsmash or ftilt, depending on the circumstances.
Could anybody give me a tip on how do i find someone to play with? Is there a section on the website or any other known site where i could find ppl to play with? I live in Brazil and im trying to play Melee online in my computer, so i'd need players from South America in order to have a good connection i guess. Thx
Bones0
Smash Legend
If you go back to Melee Discussion, there is a stickied thread with a list of FaceBook threads. You can also go to the homepage and navigate to the Regional section where your region will have a subforum.
Bones0
Smash Legend
There are 2 different effects from a true crouch cancel. When your character is actually crouching, it reduces stun and knockback. The other part of CCing is ASDI which moves your character downward and can keep them grounded when they would normally be knocked into the air. If you are attacking, shielding, in hitstun, or doing anything besides ONLY crouching, only the second effect comes into play. In order to reduce stun and KB, you have to actually be crouching.
Hiphiphooray
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2010
- Messages
- 99
I've never played melee before, but I've played a ton of SSB64 and have decent technical skill (I use a lot of z-cancels, short hops, dash dancing and pivot attacks). So my question is, coming from SSB64, what character would I be most comfortable playing?
The reason I'm asking is because some friends challenged me to a game of melee after getting whooped in SSB64. So, I don't really have access to melee to try out all the characters before hand. So here's a bit more information about my smash playstyle to help me pick a decent character:
I can play all characters comfortably in SSB64, but some of my favorites are Falcon, DK, and Pika:
My best character is probably Falcon, and I enjoy his playstyle the most since his combos are relatively easy and can go from 0 to death. Hopefully that makes sense. Sorry if my ssb64 lingo doesn't apply to melee.
The reason I'm asking is because some friends challenged me to a game of melee after getting whooped in SSB64. So, I don't really have access to melee to try out all the characters before hand. So here's a bit more information about my smash playstyle to help me pick a decent character:
I can play all characters comfortably in SSB64, but some of my favorites are Falcon, DK, and Pika:
- With Falcon I typically play very aggressive and utilize a lot of pivot grabs to start aerial combos, finishing with a up-b, u-air or d-air (spike). I also use a lot of pivot f-smash and b-air to finish opponents at higher percentages. I always edge guard with d-air, d-tilt, or b-air.
- With DK I play more of a punish style, often waiting for the opponent to approach and punishing with his powerful back throw. Typically my style with DK is gimmicky, chaining grabs off walls or spiking them off the stage when the try to recover. I just enjoy comboing his powerful punch, especially in FFA if you can get two or three in 1 punch.
- With Pika, play much more defensively and use u-tilts when they approach. I pretty much use all aerials when playing pika except for u-tilt and u-smash finishers.
My best character is probably Falcon, and I enjoy his playstyle the most since his combos are relatively easy and can go from 0 to death. Hopefully that makes sense. Sorry if my ssb64 lingo doesn't apply to melee.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
You could give Sheik a shot... not much character specific things to learn, and her combos are super intuitive once you got the basic idea of things (having played a lot of ssb64 might be enough already :D).
Plus she's a good character, that's also very nice.
She's fairly defensive/punish oriented though. If you want to play truly aggressive in melee, the best thing is to play spacies, but they are a lot more work to learn.
Plus she's a good character, that's also very nice.
She's fairly defensive/punish oriented though. If you want to play truly aggressive in melee, the best thing is to play spacies, but they are a lot more work to learn.
I'm pretty lost when it comes to what I should be doing during doubles matches. Do the players typically just pair up and play two 1v1 matches, or does it become more of a "zone" thing were you take a spot at attack anything that comes near you?
Bones0
Smash Legend
Watch the Melee It On Me episodes about teams. I forget the video names, but they are on YouTube.
Hey guys! Im a scrub that is starting to play Melee/PM that came from Brawl (I know... its lame as fuq, but Ive learned to change). My basic tech skill, movement, and aggressiveness is basically all there, despite coming from Brawl since I was pretty technical and aggro in that game as well (which is probably why I sucked at it). I use Falcon, Marth, and Kirby(in PM) as of right now, and I know the first 2 are pretty grab/cg based (Falcon and Marth), and Kirby has Inhale. So here's my main questions.
1. When does a person usually sheild/roll/spotdodge? (I know it depends on the opponents habits, and blah blah blah... but are there generic circumstances where a person will most likely do these things? For example: On platforms? When at higher %s? When they mess up? etc.)
2. How do I sheild pressure with my characters? Or can I even sheild pressure? (I remember reading about on a previous page that Fox could do a late n-air and then shine. None of my characters have shine
. So do I use my fastest move, like Jab/Dtilt/etc.? Or do I just evade with a wavedash back and go to punish a grab/roll/ or wd oos/etc.?)
3. Is it fine to use Fox and Falco's lasers against them, despite Shine? (For Kirby specifically, Is it a good idea to copy their lasers?)
1. When does a person usually sheild/roll/spotdodge? (I know it depends on the opponents habits, and blah blah blah... but are there generic circumstances where a person will most likely do these things? For example: On platforms? When at higher %s? When they mess up? etc.)
2. How do I sheild pressure with my characters? Or can I even sheild pressure? (I remember reading about on a previous page that Fox could do a late n-air and then shine. None of my characters have shine
. So do I use my fastest move, like Jab/Dtilt/etc.? Or do I just evade with a wavedash back and go to punish a grab/roll/ or wd oos/etc.?)3. Is it fine to use Fox and Falco's lasers against them, despite Shine? (For Kirby specifically, Is it a good idea to copy their lasers?)
rpotts
Smash Lord
Glad to have you here instead of the Brawl boards, lol.1. When does a person usually sheild/roll/spotdodge? (I know it depends on the opponents habits, and blah blah blah... but are there generic circumstances where a person will most likely do these things? For example: On platforms? When at higher %s? When they mess up? etc.)
2. How do I sheild pressure with my characters? Or can I even sheild pressure? (I remember reading about on a previous page that Fox could do a late n-air and then shine. None of my characters have shine
3. Is it fine to use Fox and Falco's lasers against them, despite Shine? (For Kirby specifically, Is it a good idea to copy their lasers?)
1. People use defensive tactics when they're being pressured and/or they're at high damage and they're scared, especially on last stock. These situations occur often on platforms on wakeup, right after getting up from the edge, and yes, definitely when they make mistakes and miss approaches or get dashdanced or whatever. Also, it's worth noting that many players like to light shield and buffer rolls against characters who just spawned and still have invincibilty frames.
2. You definitely can shield pressure, although Marth and Falcon aren't really known for their excellent pressure like Fox and Falco are. Falcon players like to space nairs on shield and do things like knee -> gentleman to lock down people in shield or try to get them to shield grab and get hit. Marth can use SH double fair when spaced out appropriately but he's almost always better off just grabbing rather than trying to repeatedly pressure shields. Unlike Falco and sometimes Fox he gets much more out of a grab than a shield poke like a Falco might if he shield pokes with a shine.
3. Yes, absolutely, especially against Falco. Kirby can SHDL with Falco's lasers and I think he can get 3 off in a SH with Fox's, though I'm not sure about PM. It's a great tool against spammy Falcos who think they own the stage cause they have a gun with infinite bullets. Obviously not as effective with Fox since his lasers don't stun but you can still rack up damage against campy Foxes.
Bones0
Smash Legend
1. At the ledge and when you aerial their shieldHey guys! Im a scrub that is starting to play Melee/PM that came from Brawl (I know... its lame as fuq, but Ive learned to change). My basic tech skill, movement, and aggressiveness is basically all there, despite coming from Brawl since I was pretty technical and aggro in that game as well (which is probably why I sucked at it). I use Falcon, Marth, and Kirby(in PM) as of right now, and I know the first 2 are pretty grab/cg based (Falcon and Marth), and Kirby has Inhale. So here's my main questions.
1. When does a person usually sheild/roll/spotdodge? (I know it depends on the opponents habits, and blah blah blah... but are there generic circumstances where a person will most likely do these things? For example: On platforms? When at higher %s? When they mess up? etc.)
2. How do I sheild pressure with my characters? Or can I even sheild pressure? (I remember reading about on a previous page that Fox could do a late n-air and then shine. None of my characters have shine
3. Is it fine to use Fox and Falco's lasers against them, despite Shine? (For Kirby specifically, Is it a good idea to copy their lasers?)
2. Any character can shield pressure, but no character has shield pressure that is totally safe. You have to learn where the gaps are in your pressure, and space yourself/time your attacks so that you can catch OoS options. Shield pressure in and of itself is a pretty awful strategy because you're almost never going to break their shield. Shield pressure is just a tool to get the opponent in more restricted RPS situations where you can safely and easily punish them as opposed to, for example, trying to get a random knee with Falcon. It's also worth pointing out that grabs are so good with most characters that if you have a good read on their shielding patterns, you should just grab them. Shield pressure can keep them honest about shielding when it's possible for you to attack them straight up though.
3. I don't see how copying lasers would be a bad thing, especially as Kirby who (if I'm not mistaken) can SH triple laser. With Falco's lasers, that is SUPER annoying to deal with.
I disagree with Fox having better pressure than Marth. Marth's shield pressure is AMAZING because he has so much range. He can tip a fair on someone's shield and be perfectly safe to all of their OoS options, but also be capable of punishing any roll or jump. Even if Fox hits someone during shield pressure, the most he will get is a knockdown, and often not even that. He's also at WAY more risk for trades than Marth or Falcon.
rpotts
Smash Lord
I suppose I should clarify: I was basically saying don't try to be like Fox or Falco and essentially try to pressure repeatedly all the time. Marth can't doubleshine->nair pressure, but his moves do have some good shieldstun and obviously lots of range keeping you safer from shield grabs and other OoS punishes.
Scrumpy
Smash Rookie
I main Peach but I also want to improve my pocket Falco I use for certain matchups (I don't use him too often because it seems as if a lot of people I've played with have trouble with the Peach matchup, so she's a good choice). My technical skill is improving, albeit at a slow rate, and it's not fantastic for where it is wise to progression. I can short-hop, wavedash and L-cancel reliably, but I tend to mess up when I need to play fast. Playing fast is what I generally try to do, as it is probably best for my tech skill to do so. However, I keep messing up simple things (proper SHFFLs, for example) during my matches, though SHFFLs are something I have practiced and have perfectly down in practice. What exactly do I need to do to be able to do what, in practice, I can do, but in an actual game? Do I just need to wait for that fluidity, or what?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
more practice.
During the game you need to focus on different things, and can't dedicate your mental resources to the task of wavedashing. Those simply need to happen, as naturally as tying your shoelaces, where you don't think about the movements your fingers need to do, but well... you just tie your shoelaces, duuuh.
During the game you need to focus on different things, and can't dedicate your mental resources to the task of wavedashing. Those simply need to happen, as naturally as tying your shoelaces, where you don't think about the movements your fingers need to do, but well... you just tie your shoelaces, duuuh.
-ShadowPhoenix-
Smash Bash
Monkley6
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2009
- Messages
- 356
While messing around, I realized that Sheik seems to run slower after a pivot during a full run that's executed away from a ledge. That's to say that, if you pivot right on an edge (opposed to pivoting in the center of the stage) she seems to run at "full speed". I haven't really tested with anyone but Sheik, Roy, and Fox, but Sheik and Fox seem to share this, though more notable with Sheik. Is this because her initial dash speed is greater (or noticeably greater) than her full run speed?
Assuming that's true, this applies to other characters with faster initial dashes than full runs?
Assuming that's true, this applies to other characters with faster initial dashes than full runs?
Bones0
Smash Legend
Are you actually talking about pivots, or are you talking about turnarounds out of runs with the super slow animation?
Monkley6
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2009
- Messages
- 356
Turnarounds with the super slow animation. As in, dash, hold forward for half the stage, smash other direction and begin a run in the opposite direction. Her run animation after the turnaround is realllly slow, and the actual speed of the run feels slower too, at least it does to me.
Edit: For clarity, I'm not really concerned about it in-match, as much as I'm curious.
Edit: For clarity, I'm not really concerned about it in-match, as much as I'm curious.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I think your character's momentum actually changes quicker when you reach the edge like that, but I doubt the run speed afterwards ends up being different.
I remember seeing the phenomenon for the first time in Perfect Dark. It happens at "the beginning".
Bones0
Smash Legend
No, the thing he does on the left plat of Yoshi's Story (right when the song says "This is the beginning").
Monkley6
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2009
- Messages
- 356
Ahh I see. I didn't have any sound on lolz. Thanks for the help, however trivial it is.
Honestly, it seems like you're usually pretty helpful, in a variety of different places around here. It makes it feel a lot more inviting for newcomers (like myself), and I appreciate it. Keep it up dude
B)
Honestly, it seems like you're usually pretty helpful, in a variety of different places around here. It makes it feel a lot more inviting for newcomers (like myself), and I appreciate it. Keep it up dude
B)
Kadano
Magical Express
Xyzz
Smash Champion
mindnumbingly boring
Hi there, I'm a new player.
What are typically the best ways of beating crouch cancels besides grabs (with characters excluding spacies)? With Sheik, I heard that spacing Bair and needling from afar is good - Are there any other ways of beating it consistently?
What are typically the best ways of beating crouch cancels besides grabs (with characters excluding spacies)? With Sheik, I heard that spacing Bair and needling from afar is good - Are there any other ways of beating it consistently?
Kadano
Magical Express
Dtilt, at least with Marth.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Beating CC is pretty obvious, either you do something that will outrange their possible responses (bair for sheik is rather nice in that regard; projectiles are obviously really good, too), or straight up beats the CC (usually by having too much launching power to be CCed). Sheik isn't too great in that department at low percents, except for her grab. Luckily her grab game is good 
Yobolight
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2012
- Messages
- 1,126
Who wins?
Monkley6
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2009
- Messages
- 356
During the (very) early process of learning this game, would it be detrimental to my progress to use Doc, instead of any of the higher tiers?
It seems like it would be much better to learn the game as a whole (the neutral game and concepts etc.) with someone that doesn't have an uphill battle to begin with. I'm not exactly sure where to draw the line though.
It seems like it would be much better to learn the game as a whole (the neutral game and concepts etc.) with someone that doesn't have an uphill battle to begin with. I'm not exactly sure where to draw the line though.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Doc, Pikachu, Samus, Luigi, and Ganon are all fine. When people talk about your character preventing you from learning the game, they're mostly talking about super low tiers that lose to the most basic tactics (i.e. CCing vs. Roy, DD camping vs. Kirby, etc).
Also, trying to play all of the top tiers is dumb. As long as you watch videos of top tiers and get decent exp vs. players that main them, you don't really have to ever play them.