Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[Ulevo]

I dislike the word/idea of "viable" in discussions like this, because there's compound subjectivity involved. But I don't want to get into semantics.

We can all agree that Palutena, DK, WFT, Samus, Ganon, Ike, Kirby, and Duck Hunt are among the "big winners" from customs. I feel like this is beyond debate.

We can also universally agree that all of said characters are in the bottom half of the roster without customs, or mid-tier at best. Asserting otherwise is a pretty radical opinion.

And it's also fair to say that none of these characters leapfrog the roster and end up at the top or close to it. Palutena and DK are the only ones debatable. Does anyone actually think customs WFT is top 10 material?

So, we've got a bunch of low-tiers moving up to the power level we'd formally call mid-tier, aka the middle/center/average. This is pretty much the epitome of better balance, whichever definition you use.




Meanwhile, consider characters who "lose" with customs, like Diddy, Ness, Falcon, Yoshi, and MK.

Does anyone actually think that these characters become "unviable" in a customs environment???




The only two less-than-great characters who would prefer customs off are Jigglypuff and Dedede.

And how many characters fail to compete adequately because of customs like Kong Cyclone? Charactes like Donkey Kong were capable of competing in Brawl but were gated by simple tactics like infinites from King Dedede. I wonder how many instances like this are prevalent in the custom meta?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Thunder Wave is likely a good candidate for trouble brewing in that respect.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think a lot of everyone's new move properties hurt Little Mac a good deal, much more than what he gains. Compact Counter is generally a neat bonus, but Neutral-B is negligible, Up-B requires the default, and it's hard to argue against the utility and power of Jolt Haymaker.

I dunno, I have been using Grounding Blow in an increasing percentage of matchups for recovery utility. I agree it's not clear but with him, but I think he gains in more matchups than he loses.

And how many characters fail to compete adequately because of customs like Kong Cyclone? Charactes like Donkey Kong were capable of competing in Brawl but were gated by simple tactics like infinites from King Dedede. I wonder how many instances like this are prevalent in the custom meta?

I mean, yes, how many? Can you name any?

I pointed to the "losers" of customs, like Diddy, Yoshi, Ness, Falcon, MK. Does anyone actually think these characters become unviable, or even drop into the bottom half of the roster?

Edit: I appreciate that there's a sense that the burden of proof is on me, but I'm looking at the whole roster and not seeing anyone go tumbling down in viability, in theory or practice.

There has to be some sort of infinite or huge abuse case to have something of the magnitude of impact you are talking about.

Thunder Wave is likely a good candidate for trouble brewing in that respect.

Yeah, I want to keep an eye on it. Though... I sort of question it's true strength. I really liked Thunder Wave at first and always used it, but as time passes, the more I found myself favoring the default. Also see: Penetrating Needles.

 

[Piford]

And how many characters fail to compete adequately because of customs like Kong Cyclone? Charactes like Donkey Kong were capable of competing in Brawl but were gated by simple tactics like infinites from King Dedede. I wonder how many instances like this are prevalent in the custom meta?

I doesn't seem like any character specifically struggles against Kong Cyclone to the point of being unviable; although, some characters can definitely deal with it better than others. Even if it did invalidate some characters, it'd need a lot of work to figure out and banning customs on the fear that some characters might become unviable seems silly.

 

[Ulevo]

I dunno, I have been using Grounding Blow in an increasing percentage of matchups for recovery utility. I agree it's not clear but with him, but I think he gains in more matchups than he loses.



I mean, yes, how many? Can you name any?

I pointed to the "losers" of customs, like Diddy, Yoshi, Ness, Falcon, MK. Does anyone actually think these characters become unviable, or even drop into the bottom half of the roster?

I think several players believe Ness could, given how badly wind boxes hurt Ness. Speaking from a Meta Knight's perspective, I know a lot of players find it considerably harder to utilize him in tournament. I feel Meta Knight is top 10 in vanilla, but he's likely mid tier in customs. I don't really consider mid tier to be viable from a competitive point of view.

The others, I cannot say.

I doesn't seem like any character specifically struggles against Kong Cyclone to the point of being unviable; although, some characters can definitely deal with it better than others. Even if it did invalidate some characters, it'd need a lot of work to figure out and banning customs on the fear that some characters might become unviable seems silly.

I'm not suggesting we ban customs. I feel that customs deserve their own meta and to ban specific customs without very good justification is unhealthy. However, I feel some of the arguments for why customs should be allowed, or even remain as the primary standard meta, are a little misplaced.

 

[DunnoBro]

The notion that not top tier = non-viable is pretty radical and you probably should've made it clearer you feel that way when you said characters become non-viable in customs.

 

[DunnoBro]

I dunno, I have been using Grounding Blow in an increasing percentage of matchups for recovery utility. I agree it's not clear but with him, but I think he gains in more matchups than he loses.

I agree grounding helps a lot (a shame he doesn't have a great way to take advantage of the grounding though like sonic with upsmash)

The main issue mac faces in customs is superior edgeguarding and juggling options. But it's not like default sheik is worse than all of the custom ways for mac in that regard.

 

[Ulevo]

The notion that not top tier = non-viable is pretty radical and you probably should've made it clearer you feel that way when you said characters become non-viable in customs.

Point me in the direction where it is referred that mid tier characters are viable in top competitive play.

Please.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I agree grounding helps a lot (a shame he doesn't have a great way to take advantage of the grounding though like sonic with upsmash)

The main issue mac faces in customs is superior edgeguarding and juggling options. But it's not like default sheik is worse than all of the custom ways for mac in that regard.

Grounding comes out on Frame 14 at the earliest, while Jolt Haymaker is Frame 10 at the earliest; that's a pretty significant difference.

Up-B is as fine as anything for taking advantage of a good burying. It links into the rest of the move, no problem.

My experience has suggested doing D-Tilt until they come out (at a lower-than-normal height due to the reduced knockback), then follow up with what you can (usually an Up-B).

I think it's more important to focus on the on-stage options because your objective is to prevent yourself from being put offstage in the first place. Losing a vital aerial attack and a realistic KO option is a hard price to pay.

 

[DunnoBro]

Point me in the direction where it is referred that mid tier characters are viable in top competitive play.

Please.

Do you really think most players think anything but a top tier is non-viable?

 

[Ulevo]

Do you really think most players think anything but a top tier is non-viable?

You're twisting my words and using semantics to win an argument. I said mid tier and below are not considered viable candidates in top level play. I am not excluding high tier.

 

[DunnoBro]

You're twisting my words and using semantics to win an argument. I said mid tier and below are not considered viable candidates in top level play. I am not excluding high tier.

Ok, so you really think most players think high tier is where the list of viable characters ends?

If so, then I'd like to point out this means most players think MK is non-viable.

 

[Ulevo]

Ok, so you really think most players think high tier is where the list of viable characters ends?

If so, then I'd like to point out this means most players think MK is non-viable.

Of course they do. That does not mean they're correct. Over time you will likely see recognition of Meta Knight as a character rise in tier placement.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do you really think most players think anything but a top tier is non-viable?

To be fair, most players think whatever character they like is secretly high tier.

 

[Thinkaman]

To be fair, most players think whatever character they like is secretly high tier.

Also, everyone except Rosalina players think their character is way better in teams.

 

[DunnoBro]

Of course they do. That does not mean they're correct.

Quite so, but you're still equating dropping one, (maybe two tiers in your perceived mk case) to going from viable to nonviable without much explanation as to why. These kind of radical declarations detached from explanations just cause more confusion than add to the discussion I feel like.

 

[Ulevo]

Quite so, but you're still equating dropping one, (maybe two tiers in your perceived mk case) to going from viable to nonviable without much explanation as to why. These kind of radical declarations detached from explanations just cause more confusion than add to the discussion I feel like.

What exactly is there to explain. If your character is not high tier, it is not regarded as competitively viable. Meta Knight is underrated within the current vanilla meta by a far margin. This is evident given his tournament results, along with the bias that came with the Meta Knights nerfs that Meta Knight was knocked down too many pegs without objectively viewing him in the new game. It stands to reason Meta Knight will only rise in position from where he perceivably sits in mid tier.

Customs are a different story. Every character around him becomes significantly better. While I can't say how he stacks up relatively from personal experience since I do not play competitive customs myself, Meta Knight mains who do play customs, good ones, feel he's around mid tier in viability.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What exactly is there to explain. If your character is not high tier, it is not regarded as competitively viable.

Butting in, but I don't think there's an official definition of "high tier" anywhere, much less this specific one.

Also, everyone except Rosalina players think their character is way better in teams.

To be fair, I pulled off a 1v2 comeback as Rosalina but it was back in the 3DS era, it was friendlies, and I was the first Rosalina player they had ever fought. The joke became that Luma made it fair by turning it into a 2v2.

 

[DunnoBro]

What exactly is there to explain. If your character is not high tier, it is not regarded as competitively viable. Meta Knight is underrated within the current vanilla meta by a far margin. This is evident given his tournament results, along with the bias that came with the Meta Knights nerfs that Meta Knight was knocked down too many pegs without objectively viewing him in the new game. It stands to reason Meta Knight will only rise in position from where he perceivably sits in mid tier.

Customs are a different story. Every character around him becomes significantly better. While I can't say how he stacks up relatively from personal experience since I do not play competitive customs myself, Meta Knight mains who do play customs, good ones, feel he's around mid tier in viability.

I'm just saying that on average characters get better than they get worse with customs. (there's no examples of characters getting worse like dk or palutena getting better) Going from bottom tier to high/top tier is more radical than high to mid. And that framing that as becoming non-viable because other characters got better honestly sounds really scrubby.

 

[digiholic]

I can't find the post that describes it better that was posted a while back, but think about it mathematically:

Let's assume that the strength of a move is a random sampled variable from 1 (default sing) to 100 (brawl Shuttle Loop). Each character has a value of "goodness" on every move they have, including default and custom specials.

Now, if a character "rolled high" on their special moves (i.e., they have good specials) they are likely to place higher in tier lists than characters that don't have very good specials.

So, since we cannot change the character's normal moves, they are fixed in terms of their contributions to a character's overall power level, and thus, can be disregarded for our considerations (since they are constant, they have the same effect whether customs are allowed or not)

This means that we can measure the change in a character's overall strength by measuring the change in power from their default specials, to a hypothetical "optimal" set.

For the sake of argument, we will assume that all moves have been thoroughly tested, hardware limitations are not a factor, and all players are using the best moves for their current matchup. This means we can effectively quantify the "power level" of every custom move in relation to the others, and that players will always know which move is higher than the others for his current matchup. This means that it is unlikely that a "bad decision" can cripple a character in a particular matchup due to lack of information.

If a character has his default specials average "power level" of 50, and his other moves are randomly sampled from 1-100 as above, that means there is roughly a 50% chance that move is better than his default. Likewise, a character whose defaults average to 75 has only a 25% chance that his new moves are better than his defaults.

What this means is, the lower the overall strength of a character's special moves, the more they benefit from having more "re-rolls" on their power rankings. In simple terms, "there's nowhere to go but up". This means characters like Wii Fit Trainer, who has fairly lackluster special moves, now gets to effectively roll three dice and take the higher result, while characters like Sheik are likely going to use their default moves since they were already so high on the power scale.

If everyone gets a chance to roll three times and take the highest result, it's going to benefit the player who rolled a 3 on their first attempt more than it will benefit the player who rolled a 20.

Because of this, the increase in power from custom moves is statistically more significant for characters that are "weaker" than for the stronger characters.

 

[Splash Damage]

That whole "Sheik hard punishing DK's cyclone" thing is very important. It means literally any attack that comes out frame 4 or earlier can get a hard punish on a successful hit.

Huh, I wonder if Mac really can spam nair into footstool into up B in that case. Likely can, i'll test it.

I think a lot of everyone's new move properties hurt Little Mac a good deal, much more than what he gains. Compact Counter is generally a neat bonus, but Neutral-B is negligible, Up-B requires the default, and it's hard to argue against the utility and power of Jolt Haymaker.

I disagree, I've found that with Customs he actually gains quite a lot that people take for granted.
First off, he gains a new recovery option in Flaming Straight lunge(Though it should only be used in extreme moderation as a mixup against thirsy edgeguards), which also gives him aerial super armor than comes out extremely early and eats through weak combo aerials, jun theory giving him a limited answer to Shiek and maybe Luigi in some cases.
He gets loads of MU utility with the counters, Compact in some cases though I honestly don't see many uses from playing with it for a few sessions, and Dash to use against projectile users and to give him yet another recovery mixup against projectiles and thirsty edge guarders(Of which there are plenty). Dash is likely the best overall for Mac, as the kill power from the default counter won't be missed too terribly when you consider all his other kill options, and he's certainly not lacking in escape options what with jab and Up B.
Though I won't argue that Jolt Haymaker is the overall best by a small amount, the other side-B's hardly fall behind, as both of the Side B's altogether give him even more ability to fight against certain MUs. So far, I've found that Guard Breaker is excellent for fighting Yoshi and aggressive trip sapling Villager specifically(I have yet to test it against than many other projectile characters though I'd be shocked to hear anything different), as it makes their projectiles unsafe and unreliable, as well as rendering them relatively pointless as they can't keep him away with them due to the SA, which is a big reason it's done. Sure you still take 4-6% damage, but with the damage, knock back, properties and pressure of Guard Breaker, 6% is a very favorable trade. This also creates a good amount of mixup situations due to the fact that it forces a roll option: approach like you're going to use it and, because they're respecting the hugely damaging, high knockback, unshieldable attack with super armor, they'll preemptively roll or spotdodge, and this gives you not only their their fear reaction(Which is a necessity to know to land the KO punch), but also a potential(and by potential i mean likely)read into either a charged U-smash or simply another Guard Breaker.
Also, Guard Breaker requires a lot more work to punish rolls with and can't be used in a few situations where Jolt can, it still can be used almost just as often for a much heavier punish/techchase, even rivaling running U-smash if you want to keep U-smash fresh for kills. Actually, considering how safe shielding is generally and the fact that Mac has no kill throws, a bad grab, and no shield breaker barring the uncommon down tilted F-smash, any player worth their salt will be shielding plenty for most of stocks and especially near the end of them, making this one smarter to use in order to condition them to think they shoudln't shield for fear of taking the heavy hit or even dying to it, which sets up a simple roll/spotdodge read situation into a running U-smash for a kill.
Not to mention the fact that it's likely his best recovery option, due to the fact that it of course has SA, and wasn;t nerfed in the WiiU patch like Jolt was for aerial use, making it go almost the same distance but have much more of a high arc, giving it more height.
Grounding Blow is incredibly good for combating platform campers when used in moderation, and is especially good for this when paired with his Up B, and can create plenty of mixup situations, such as jumping up at them and using it just as they attempt to grab. It's a safer option than Up B in that situation as it there is less time spent without hitboxes if you whiff, and you can actually follow up afterwards if you land it. Not to mention the ability to kill thirsty edgeguarders incredibly early when recovering due to the spike, but also the ability to make your recoveries more dynamic due to the strange angle. Not to mention the ability to D-tilt/D-throw>Side B on ledge and hit your opponent with the lenient spike hitbox, potentially killing them and leaving mac hanging on ledge with ledge invincibility, perfectly safe.

Thinkaman said it best:

I dunno, I have been using Grounding Blow in an increasing percentage of matchups for recovery utility. I agree it's not clear but with him, but I think he gains in more matchups than he loses.

Moving on:
As I said, neither of the Side-B's are as unanimously usable as Jolt with its invincibility and ability to freely alter the timing to the greatest extent, though they definitely warrant plenty of use in certain MU's, stages, and when using certain sets with them.
As for the UpB's, I don't think we need to argue that Rising Uppercut is the best. Tornado won't ever be good until it goes Fox Up B distance, and Rising Smash will only be good if he gets a more reliable jab lock setup/another move with Locking properties. It could warrant a set over 2121 though considering Dunnobro's claims of its usefulness, especially when none of us really cared much about the tenth set, haha.
Overall, Mac definitely benefits from customs more than we give him credit for, and he's certainly kept in the running with them on.

I agree grounding helps a lot (a shame he doesn't have a great way to take advantage of the grounding though like sonic with upsmash)

The main issue mac faces in customs is superior edgeguarding and juggling options. But it's not like default sheik is worse than all of the custom ways for mac in that regard.

Can't he follow up with Up B or Up Smash at high percents? I was sure I was able to back when I used it, and I was leagues worse than I am now and not even comparable to the Macs here now.
In any case, Mac does have that struggle with customs I can cetainly agree, but at the same time in a world where Guard Breaker and Dash Counter exist as well as Mac's wall jump and preexisting ability to mix up his recovery to a limited degree(very limited degree, but enough to get him by in most cases), he should be relatively fine, or at least certainly no worse than he was. He'll always have to work much harder to get back than everyone else and he'll always eat 6,000 F-airs to the forehead from Luigi and Sheik and be sent far offstage if they're fast enough, but at least Customs give him some good tools to at least give him a helping hand.

 

[DunnoBro]

Those work but they aren't killing people like sonic's upsmash is.

 

[W.A.C.]

Meanwhile, consider characters who "lose" with customs, like Diddy, Ness, Falcon, Yoshi, and MK.

All of Diddy Kong's up specials are worth using a tournaments and up special 2 can massively help make up for a lot of the power nerfs he received. I personally prefer up special 3 the most because it's faster (which has saved many of my stocks) and I have more control of it. Most of Yoshi's customs make him worse, except Egg Launch which can be a better choice depending on the matchup. However, I would agree Yoshi's tier standing overall goes down from customs because customs do not benefit him anywhere near as much as much of the cast. I don't use Captain Falcon, but one of his custom up specials is a very good alternative to his standard one and can have a massive influence in the outcome of a tournament match. I don't know enough about Ness's customs to judge whether or not his custom help him at all, though I can see how windboxes can screw him over badly. As for Meta Knight, he definitely gets screwed over badly by custom moves. If it weren't for High Speed Drill (which I hate), I would say he has the worst custom moves in the game. Without customs, I think he's somewhere between mid tier and low high tier. With customs enabled, he's in no way above mid tier by any means. Does that mean he loses his viability? I don't think so, but some people do. Worth mentioning I've never fought Mii Brawler using Meta Knight, so I have no idea if the matchup is truly that bad.

The only two less-than-great characters who would prefer customs off are Jigglypuff and Dedede.

I don't use Jiggypuff, but judging from this video, her customs look a better than people give them credit for. As for King Dedede, customs help him a lot. Most people agree his standard down special is the worst version of his down special and a lot of King Dedede mains really like Taste Test a lot. Rising Dedede is also a very good alternative to his standard up special and Bouncing Gordos is an awesome stage control move. I don't see how anyone could view Dedede as worse with customs enabled. Out of the five characters I use the most, they benefit him far more than the other four.

 

[Splash Damage]

Those work but they aren't killing people like sonic's upsmash is.

Sonic's U-Smash kills earlier than Mac's U-Smash or even Up-B after a jump to chase the leap from escaping a grounded state? Or do you mean the bury isn't long enough to reliably follow up or charge it at all until percents past the kill percentage anyway?

 

[DunnoBro]

Sonic's U-Smash kills earlier than Mac's U-Smash or even Up-B after a jump to chase the leap from escaping a grounded state? Or do you mean the bury isn't long enough to reliably follow up or charge it at all until percents past the kill percentage anyway?

Sonic's upsmash pulls them out of bury then hits them with normal knockback due to multi hits, that's why it's better.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm just saying that on average characters get better than they get worse with customs. (there's no examples of characters getting worse like dk or palutena getting better) Going from bottom tier to high/top tier is more radical than high to mid. And that framing that as becoming non-viable because other characters got better honestly sounds really scrubby.

Who went from bottom to high/top? Palutena? Donkey Kong? Those characters were mid tier, Donkey Kong may or may not have been high mid tier.

You need to understand that just because characters get better, it does not mean that other characters stay the same in tiering relative to everyone else. Tiers are based on character strength relative to the rest of the roster. Characters do not perform in isolation.

Call me scrubby all you want, but you have difficulty grasping even basic concepts in gaming, so I'm not really offended.

 

[DunnoBro]

Who went from bottom to high/top? Palutena? Donkey Kong? Those characters were mid tier, Donkey Kong may or may not have been high mid tier.

You need to understand that just because characters get better, it does not mean that other characters stay the same in tiering relative to everyone else. Tiers are based on character strength relative to the rest of the roster. Characters do not perform in isolation.

Call me scrubby all you want, but you have difficulty grasping even basic concepts in gaming, so I'm not really offended.

To clarify, I called the framing scrubby, not you.

And I'm not sure what tier list you're looking at, please show me the tier lists DK and palutena are considered mid-tier in default.

The community ones, japanese one, and dabuz's don't have them considered mid-tier at all. (or palutena at least)

And I also clearly acknowledge tiering changes based on how other characters get, that's what this whole discussion is about. I'm saying no character loses as much as others gain.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

To clarify, I called the framing scrubby, not you.

And I'm not sure what tier list you're looking at, please show me the tier lists DK and palutena are considered mid-tier in default.

The community ones and dabuz's don't have them considered mid-tier at all. (or palutena at least)

Palutena's very close to mid on Japan's tier list. 33rd and four places away from being in C-tier.

 

[DunnoBro]

Palutena's very close to mid on Japan's tier list. 33rd and four places away from being in C-tier.

That's not mid-tier though, and then DK is in E tier there.

There's no tier list they're both considered mid I can find.

 

[Splash Damage]

Sonic's upsmash pulls them out of bury then hits them with normal knockback due to multi hits, that's why it's better.

Ah, I see. In that case, I suppose Up B on Mac could still rival it, as he can wait until they mash out then immediately Up B as fast as you can react. With good reaction time, you may still be able to connect or be able to simply read an airdodge to still hit it.
Not as guaranteed though.

Also, just going to weigh in on the tierlists: I'm with DunnoBro on this one. The top tiers who have poor customs become even less polarizing than they already are, and the mid/low-tiers rise much closer to their level. Digiholic provided a perfect example about how it works above; the characters who suffer due to lackluster specials have a much more likely shot at getting custom specials that just happen to be superior and also link their moves together much better.

To be fair, most players think whatever character they like is secretly high tier.

Also, everyone except Rosalina players think their character is way better in teams.

I am terribly guilty of both of these things

 

[DunnoBro]

Okay, I've definitely made a huuuuge mistake over-estimating jump snag. That thing is getting me killed.

Like, there ARE situations it's directly superior to default, and it has some cute combo/combo breaker functionality, but the situations it's inferior in are either more plentiful or just more crippling than the ones default is inferior in. And zigzag actually covers for the default recovery insanely well.

(Though I think snag might be better with default can. I'm never using that again though so don't expect any extensive testing from me on it)

Definitely gotta remember to consider default more static next customs update. I can't complain though, I could only notice these situations from extensive competitive play from having customs legal to begin with.

 

[Thinkaman]

Okay, I've definitely made a huuuuge mistake over-estimating jump snag. That thing is getting me killed.

Like, there ARE situations it's directly superior to default, and it has some cute combo/combo breaker functionality, but the situations it's inferior in are either more plentiful or just more crippling than the ones default is inferior in. And zigzag actually covers for the default recovery insanely well.

(Though I think snag might be better with default can. I'm never using that again though so don't expect any extensive testing from me on it)

Definitely gotta remember to consider default more static next customs update. I can't complain though, I could only notice these situations from extensive competitive play from having customs legal to begin with.

In the review, I said that having 8 Snag sets is a mistake, and it's just a matter of DunnoBro figuring that out and posting in time before the deadline.

But seriously, I don't feel too bad since Snag is the best option, even if 8 sets is dubious:

• The fast startup is crucial
• A f4 OoS option is not only valuable, but the sort of value that increases with player level
• Zig-Zag Shot's synergy with Snag is crazy high; if you start Snag on top of a fresh can, the hitboxes will link (40%+ possible) and the explosion will knock Duck Hunt out of endling lag
• If recovery distance is really an issue, with Snag it's actually possible to throw out a Zig-Zag can, up-b into it, and then up-b again

 

[DunnoBro]

In the review, I said that having 8 Snag sets is a mistake, and it's just a matter of DunnoBro figuring that out and posting in time before the deadline.

But seriously, I don't feel too bad since Snag is the best option, even if 8 sets is dubious:

• The fast startup is crucial

• A f4 OoS option is not only valuable, but the sort of value that increases with player level
• Zig-Zag Shot's synergy with Snag is crazy high; if you start Snag on top of a fresh can, the hitboxes will link (40%+ possible) and the explosion will knock Duck Hunt out of endling lag

The issue is the speed still isn't that fast, the hitbox is pitiful, reward for hit is sub-8% (unless it's at the proper depth offstage, then it can stage spike), the punish is death. It's an OoS option sure, and it helps get me out of damage dealing situations. But it gets me stuck in death situations too.

Also yea, the upb combos with zigzag, but so does upair since it's also multi-hit, it does more damage, is easier, and is more likely to kill since it works regardless of my percent. The only benefit to using snag to do it, is to get reset when it hits both of you so you can try for a early kill attempt if you're around the same % but duck hunt would go lower, but I'd rather go for the extra damage and re-establish stage control with upair.

It's really hard to hit myself with zigzag and snag, and it doesn't solve the issue that I can't recover as low anymore. Which is why I'm getting killed.

The 3113 set didn't make it in (which is what I want to use now and did submit at the time, but unfortunately put little emphasis on it)

Default recovery lets me more consistently shoot the zigzag can as an anti-edgeguard, then fall deep and recover while it harasses around the ledge. (making dropzone bair spikes less likely despite the slower speed and no hitbox)

 

[Blobface]

I messed around in training and found a few interesting things about Kong Cyclone. I've noticed recently that players almost always have a frame advantage out of the Up-B, so I wanted to test it specifically.

None of these were 100% consistent, so think of them as general rules.

• Getting hit from the side gives little frame advantage
• Getting hit from below gave me enough frame advantage to land Ganon's F6 U-air
• Getting hit from above gave me so much Frame advantage my U-air wound up hitting his armor
• All of these are dependent on how DK is moving. The more he moves, the more frame advantage you have. The less he moves, the less frame advantage you have.

 

[DunnoBro]

So let's talk about this:

http://gbatemp.net/threads/smash-3ds-moveset-save-editor.389468/

Now, neither powersaves or the daunting task of inputting the sets into the 3ds is needed. This makes the prospect of updates much more appealing. Now, the main issue is the reuploading of sets per Wii U. However, this also GREATLY increases the amount of people who can help out.

Things are looking good.

 

[Dapplegonger]

I don't use Jiggypuff, but judging from this video, her customs look a better than people give them credit for. As for King Dedede, customs help him a lot. Most people agree his standard down special is the worst version of his down special and a lot of King Dedede mains really like Taste Test a lot. Rising Dedede is also a very good alternative to his standard up special and Bouncing Gordos is an awesome stage control move. I don't see how anyone could view Dedede as worse with customs enabled. Out of the five characters I use the most, they benefit him far more than the other four.

Jigglypuff does get pretty solid customs, I'll admit it, but in many cases the defaults are better. Leaping Rest, in particular, can be combo'd into pretty easily, but it kills way later than normal Rest. If you'll notice, it never kills Diddy, a character with below average weight, until well past 100%. To compare, getting a solid read with normal Rest kills at 50-60% on characters of similar weight, and actually has less endlag. Multi-hit pound, I'll admit, is actually really good, but that one comes down to personal preference. You lose shield pressure in exchange for a slower, multi-hit move. I really liked the custom for a while, but I think default Pound can have more uses. Those two work pretty well in conjunction though. Hyper Voice is pretty undisputedly better than Sing though, pretty much every custom Jigglypuff set has Hyper Voice in it.

tl;dr Jigglypuff has solid customs, but that video does them too much justice.

 

[Ping Warrior]

My thoughts on custom movesets for Sheik

3231 (My personal set for Para needle, Gravity Nade, and Abyss feels pretty solid)
2211
1211
2311 (I like skimming grenade sometimes. It knocks them almost completely sideways as an easy gimp option.)
2221 (Gale)
1221 (Gale + Normal Needles + Gravity Nade. Pretty useful)
2331 (Super hard pressure until they're at the ledge, then end it with Abyss)
2313 (Zone them with projectiles and defensive play, then nuke them with Pisces for the finish.)

Unsure about this one, went past 8 sets designed
3213 (Kinda like the above, but you use Pisces to finish with aggressive play and Pisces combos from the Para Needle pretty well)

Have yet to get input from other Sheik mains, but I think they could see some use. Paralysis Needle could totally see some use sometime. The Sheik boards have started doing a bit more testing and custom move inquiry is spreading a bit.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

So let's talk about this:

http://gbatemp.net/threads/smash-3ds-moveset-save-editor.389468/

Now, neither powersaves or the daunting task of inputting the sets into the 3ds is needed. This makes the prospect of updates much more appealing. Now, the main issue is the reuploading of sets per Wii U. However, this also GREATLY increases the amount of people who can help out.

Things are looking good.

If I can get some help loading it onto my digital copy (kinda kicking myself for going digital because I could have just gotten a powersave by now) and it doesn't turn into an exploit for getting dlc for free, then count me in

 

[dav3yb]

Is there some particular way people are differentiating between the various sized Mii fighters (brawler)?

is there some prefix that people are putting before the set numbers?

 

[Nintendrone]

It's recommended to add a suffix to the Brawler sets to denote their size, such as S for small and D/M default/medium.