Obselete Techniques

[M.K]

I'd like some truly intellectual responses to this thread, not a bunch of flaming. In any case, I'm holding my Flame sheild just in case. Many people may be criticizing Super Smash Bros. Brawl because of the lack of "advanced" techniques, such as Wavedashing and L-Cancelling. Many believe these techniques hold the foundation of a competitive Super Smash Bros. game. I've been sitting in the observer's chair, watching the tournament players shy away from Brawl and the casual players acting victorious. I just had a simple thought, maybe one that I'd like to emphasize on.

Ever since the E for All Demo, many players have commented on the "auto" L-cancelling of most moves. They believed the game flowed more smoothly, and was slower paced. The automatic L-Cancelling was favorable, not requiring any button input. Now may I ask this question: How could you complain or disdain the removal of such techniques if they are applied in a more modern approach? Other than having to adapt to NOT pressing a button, I don't see how this could be problamatic to Brawl's competitive edge.

On a similar note, Wavedashing was used to better set-up your position on an opponent, or to appear tricky. Utilizing the slower pace and floatier air mechanics, I'd see even more of a chance to immediatly get in an optimal position to attack or defend on spot. Realizing that the lack of this technique may affect your playstyle, my instincts would tell me that I could learn to get in the best position FIRST, without having to adjust after landing or recovering.

The fact of the matter is, with each technique that Melee possesed, the competitive scene got trickier, better, faster, stronger, and even smarter. However, Brawl has been a new, maybe not-so-fresh experience to some of the more expert players of Melee. If you step back, and look at Brawl, you may find that some of the techniques you relied so heavily on in Melee for positioning, attacking, defending, or mind-gaming are obselete. You've tricked your mind into believing that the techniques make the game, however, it is quite the opposite, as many have found out. I'm completely aware that Brawl will have it's SLEW of techniques in the coming years that will better the competitive standpoint compared to the non-competitive view. However, the techniques that many refuse to let go are the ones that are holding us back from acheiving optimal Brawl competitiveness. You can't teach an old dog new tricks, but if you get a new dog, you can teach it all the tricks you want.

 

[Brainiac_man]

Wouldn't that technically be "you can't teach a new dog old tricks?"

 

[shatoga]

I think that brawl is actually better than melee.I'm kind of a casual, pro player myself and enjoy the slower pace of it, since it's actually alot more realistic and fun to play.And i don't really get how wavedashing and all that is that big of a deal, yeah it sucks that you can't do it, but it shouldn't make you stop playing a game.And like you said, we'll learn new techniques.Hell was wavedashing found out when melee first came out?I don't thnk so.

 

[itsame]

Wouldn't that technically be "you can't teach a new dog old tricks?"

you truly earn the title of Brainia_man !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[M.K]

Wouldn't that technically be "you can't teach a new dog old tricks?"

No, you can teach a new dog all the tricks in the world. Read before you post, seriously, maybe you mis-interpreted, and if that, I'm sorry.

 

[OrlanduEX]

The lack of advanced techs is not the problem in Brawl. It's the general dumbing down of \everything. Brawl was not made to be played competitively and that makes it uninteresting for Melee vets.
Hit stun has been reduced so that it is very hard to guarantee any hits. ]
Throws suck. Period.
Recovery is much easier which makes matches way more drawn out.
Shielding is amazing now and its easy to powershield so that you can block and punish anything.
They nerfed all the good characters and even all the rather ok characters. Instead of tweaking some of the top characters and improving the rest of the cast, they applied the nerf bat to all so that all the veterans are equally weak.

Brawl was pretty much meant to be 4 players, all items at all times.
Competitive play in Brawl = campfest requiring extreme patience.

 

[Chaosblade77]

The lack of advanced techs is not the problem in Brawl. It's the general dumbing down of \everything. Brawl was not made to be played competitively and that makes it uninteresting for Melee vets.
Hit stun has been reduced so that it is very hard to guarantee any hits. ]
Throws suck. Period.
Recovery is much easier which makes matches way more drawn out.
Shielding is amazing now and its easy to powershield so that you can block and punish anything.
They nerfed all the good characters and even all the rather ok characters. Instead of tweaking some of the top characters and improving the rest of the cast, they applied the nerf bat to all so that all the veterans are equally weak.

Brawl was pretty much meant to be 4 players, all items at all times.
Competitive play in Brawl = campfest requiring extreme patience.

The irony in that is you can already see the metagame evolving in this post. Just weeks ago we had people who had imported the game saying shielding was nerfed and throws were still generally good (I guess that is still circumstantial).

However, you're right. Dumbing parts of the game down is one of the things that people seem to dislike the most, but you still see all sorts of contradicting discussion over advanced techniques. Plenty of posts and topics saying things like "Removal of Melee ATs hurt the game," "that tech isn't new it was in Melee," "that tech is useless." It's a confusing subject.

On the other hand, I also think there is some truth in the first post. While wavedashing could still be useful for spacing and such, it's not completely necessary. Because people are calling Brawl much more campy than Melee, I think wavedashing would promote campy play more so than offensive play. The reason it helped Melee offenses was because Melee was an offensive game. Brawl isn't.

L-canceling follows along. Most attacks have less landing lag anyway, and all the lag canceling ever accomplished was make the fast characters faster, rather than add balance to the game. I doubt the developers of any fighting game have intentionally added things that help unbalance the game, after seeing the effects.

There are others like crouch canceling but that always seemed a bit more like a bug, the crouch had priority over the knockback of the attack, which could definitely be unintentional.

All in all the future of Brawl and it's techniques will be whatever people make of it. There hasn't been anything totally gamebreaking yet, but there have been techniques that have helped peoples games, regardless of how advanced they are.

 

[Rufeo]

They don't have auto L-canceling for all moves so now you can't do anything about the moves with bad landing lag.

 

[M.K]

They don't have auto L-canceling for all moves so now you can't do anything about the moves with bad landing lag.

I said MOST moves, not all. There are definetly some moves that have bad landing lag, but there were in Melee too, so it's just another thing to adapt to.

 

[Youko]

They don't have auto L-canceling for all moves so now you can't do anything about the moves with bad landing lag.

Don't...use...them? If it's THAT big of an issue for you, that is.

There is actually something you can do about those particular moves, see?

 

[Blah17]

I personaly don't see the big deal with adding or subtracting advanced techniques, there still is / will be people who are good, and people who are bad, and everywhere in between, even if the definition of good and bad is now differant.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I concur, the old Melee crowd is so hung up about the wicked fast and aggressive game play of it, that when they get a game like Brawl, that has many effective ways to stop aggressiveness, they get offended and call the game "dumbed down".

However, if they actually bothered to play the game, they'd realize that many of the new techniques being created, and the character metagames being developed, are allowing people to overcome the campiness of the game, making it balanced game of defense vs offense. My case and point to this is Ike, Metaknight and Marth. These characters can not camp, in anyway. Its BECAUSE of the new defensive systems that they are able to get by the campers projectiles, and get aggressive with them.

The metagame is developing so fast its hard to tell what kind of game its going to be. When it first came out, it looked like a game of sheildgrabbing. Then we realized that grabs are weak and that many lagless aerials existed. Then the campers came along and spammed projectiles. People like myself found excellent ways to get into their space still. Whats next? I don't know. Frankly, I'm rather excited. Will the game finally be balanced in its ability to sit back or go aggresive? I hope so! ^^

 

[Blah17]

Yeah, everyones all like "WTF I suck again!!!", lol, but I agree, I think when everything settles down and once everyone stops sucking people will realise it's actualy much more balence, but still equally skill based, In melee it seemed like all the pros were the exact same except exactly "how" pro they were, and to a shamefuly small degree - what charecters they used, it seems to me like theres a lot more charecters in brawl who will be viable to have as mains, in melee it was 5 (arbitrary number) charecters you could pick, if you pick anyone else you suck, and everyone played the 5 the exact same way.

In brawl theres more charecters you can get good at, and you can play either offensively or defensively, I played as Ike at first, and was in general very agressive, then I tried Olimar, and I tried being offensive and it didnt work out (i'm sure it could for differant players, which is the beuty of brawl) so I started playing defense, keeping distance, throwing pikmin, and owning noobs.

 

[DragonBlade]

However, if they actually bothered to play the game...

Is this supposed to be a joke? Do you think people that have been playing Melee for years competitively didn't try to play Brawl at all? Adapting to the situation and to an opponent has always been an import factor in Melee for years. Do you think they picked up Brawl and put it down immediately because its different? I can pretty much guarantee that most Melee competitive players have more Brawl play time on average than those who haven't gotten past the FFA + items stage at this point.

People who don't seem to get why ATs were so critical in Melee just haven't played Melee competitively. I can say that since I've been playing Melee competitively for years, and I've been playing Brawl nearly every day since the Japanese release. Maybe if you guys actually bothered to play Melee competitively, we wouldn't have to have these discussions over and over again...

 

[EON_MagicMan]

First and foremost, I am pretty casual by this forum's standards. I'll choose random maps (with most maps turned on, only a few turned off), but it's usually 3-stocks, no items (where my competitive side shines through). I will also probably never touch Melee again, and love Brawl, so don't get me wrong.

That being said, I feel that Brawl would benefit from having L-Cancelling. L-cancelling is nothing more than an extra, layer, more depth.

Take for example, teching (recovering almost instantly by pressing the shield button upon impact). I'm sure when most of us first got Smash Bros (whichever incarnation), we didn't tech. That's something that takes a bit of playing and active attempts to master it until it becomes natural, but it provides such an advantage.

You can even apply that same technique to rolling. Few people instantly catch on to rolling their first time playing Smash Bros, but obviously someone who has played 10 matches and has learned to roll regularily is going to have an advantage over someone who has only played 5 and doesn't roll.

So, L-cancelling, which is difficult to learn and master at first, has it's payoff, and that's why it should've had it's place in Brawl. Sure, it gives you an advantage, but it's difficult to execute, making it fair.

 

[LavianOrlandu]

Frankly, I'm glad that Nintendo took out the techniques that only a select few of the Melee players in the world could execute. Obviously, I'm a pretty casual player although I did sit down for a bit to try and learn wavedashing and dash-dancing, but in the settings that I play in (on-campus tourneys at college), the tournaments are always dominated by two or three people who know the tricks of the trade, so to speak. In Brawl, they've leveled the playing field by starting everyone anew.

What pisses me off is when these two-three players have enough pull to influence tournaments. There was recently a Brawl tournament that was changed to a Melee tournament because Brawl wasn't "tournament worthy," says the Melee elite. What they really were saying was that they didn't want to play a game that they're not demi-gods at.

Maybe they'll realize eventually that they are hopelessly out of date already. Brawl is the future!

 

[DragonBlade]

LavianOrlandu, not to be rude, but you are completely misinformed. The most of the Melee techniques (wavedashing, SHFFLing, DA Dashing) are not as difficult as you say. Anyone can develop the dexterity to perform them in a few weeks with about 10 minutes of practicing in Training Mode a day. Its basically getting the timing down in 'muscle memory'.

The key is practicing the right way. I admit it can be difficult if you don't have someone to show you., but I did teach a 7 year old how to wavedash in about 10-20 minutes. He couldn't do it consistently, but he did learn the timing and probably would have mastered it in a week or two if he actually had the game. In the era of youtube and online play, there is no longer the issue of no one being around to teach you, so there was no reason to take out the ATs.

Also, these 2-3 players you keep taking about are actually more like 2-3 thousand players who take the initiative to host and attend competitive smash tournaments because they enjoy it. If they enjoy playing how they want even if its Melee over Brawl, why shouldn't they decide do it that way? Why do they have to abide by what the supposed 'popular opinion' is?

 

[Thino]

so... err <_< whats the poin of this thread? saying that old techniques dont work anomre? ok. so?

 

[FalconPunch]

Obsolete techniques? Let's see...

Attacking
Running

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I believe you need to put more emphasis on the obscure techniques beyond the obvious ones previously mentioned.

I played the E For All demo for many hours, and several other previous techs were there too. Dash dancing, JC grabs and Shines, Crouch Canceling, Float canceling, Fox's "old" D-throw and more prominent hit stun on attacks.

Playing the E For All demo was great because it had moderate competitive value that wasn't extremely game breaking. Controls felt tight, grabbing people wasn't impossible, tech chases and combos possible and many characters were able to keep up with one another (Except Ike).

Now that only a few characters are capable doing safe aerials and projectiles, it gives the lesser characters a massive disadvantage in fighting against them. The L-cancel and Wavedash were techniques that were available for all characters, and universally balanced character functionality.

In theory, you can easily say that this game is unbalanced on a grander scale. I would honestly rather have the E For All demo over the final product.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Obsolete techniques? Let's see...

Attacking
Running

You didn't just go there!


*starts running at you to teach you a lesson*


*trips*

SAKURAI!!!

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I aproove of the above message.

 

[LavianOrlandu]

LavianOrlandu, not to be rude, but you are completely misinformed. The most of the Melee techniques (wavedashing, SHFFLing, DA Dashing) are not as difficult as you say. Anyone can develop the dexterity to perform them in a few weeks with about 10 minutes of practicing in Training Mode a day. Its basically getting the timing down in 'muscle memory'.

The key is practicing the right way. I admit it can be difficult if you don't have someone to show you., but I did teach a 7 year old how to wavedash in about 10-20 minutes. He couldn't do it consistently, but he did learn the timing and probably would have mastered it in a week or two if he actually had the game. In the era of youtube and online play, there is no longer the issue of no one being around to teach you, so there was no reason to take out the ATs.

Also, these 2-3 players you keep taking about are actually more like 2-3 thousand players who take the initiative to host and attend competitive smash tournaments because they enjoy it. If they enjoy playing how they want even if its Melee over Brawl, why shouldn't they decide do it that way? Why do they have to abide by what the supposed 'popular opinion' is?

When you put it that way, it seems that yes, I am completely misinformed. I only spent an hour or two in a couple of sessions on trying to learn the advanced techniques, so my practice method was faulty too.

I do recognize and realize that there are thousands of other smash players out there who play competitively, but I gripe and moan because it was literally two or three voices that managed to change the entire structure of the tournament just because they were skilled at playing melee and their objections were extremely vehement and vocal. In the end, a lot of people who said they'd be interested in playing Brawl lost interest because Melee was played instead of Brawl. Since the entrance fees were going to be donated to charity (I should have mentioned this in my first post), the organization putting on the tournament didn't get near what they had hoped for in terms of turnout and overall donation money totals all because a couple competitive smashers didn't want to play Brawl.

That being said, immediately after my first post, I read the important points of the thread that compared Melee and Brawl and the points as to why Melee is more competitive than Brawl is. As a result, I do have a higher understanding and respect of the competitive Melee players and their gripes over Brawl. If I'm understanding this correctly, the techniques are not so much "obsolete" as they are just not available anymore in the context of Brawl's engine.

 

[DragonBlade]

I believe you need to put more emphasis on the obscure techniques beyond the obvious ones previously mentioned.

I played the E For All demo for many hours, and several other previous techs were there too. Dash dancing, JC grabs and Shines, Crouch Canceling, Float canceling, Fox's "old" D-throw and more prominent hit stun on attacks.

Playing the E For All demo was great because it had moderate competitive value that wasn't extremely game breaking. Controls felt tight, grabbing people wasn't impossible, tech chases and combos possible and many characters were able to keep up with one another (Except Ike).

Now that only a few characters are capable doing safe aerials and projectiles, it gives the lesser characters a massive disadvantage in fighting against them. The L-cancel and Wavedash were techniques that were available for all characters, and universally balanced character functionality.

In theory, you can easily say that this game is unbalanced on a grander scale. I would honestly rather have the E For All demo over the final product.

Does anyone else find it suspicious that the returning techniques we were talking about on the forums after the e4all demo are nearly all gone? No one talked about RARs and B-Reversals after e4all, and we still have them. A more cynical person would think they were watching us and deliberately took out the "exploits" that we found. Its too bad really. Why do this to us Sakurai, why?

 

[Thino]

The only good post-E4All thing is that they made Ike playable

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

Thino, good is how you look at it. I could see making Ike playable as a bad thing.

 

[uberdan101]

To DragonBlade:

Maybe you didn't realize that according to the creators, your "ATs" were glitches (except for L-canceling) and shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. As such, Brawl is more pure, and much more fun since you have to learn to use your characters, not glitches.

 

[Thino]

Thino, good is how you look at it. I could see making Ike playable as a bad thing.

True. thats a point of view too

To DragonBlade:

Maybe you didn't realize that according to the creators, your "ATs" were glitches (except for L-canceling) and shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. As such, Brawl is more pure, and much more fun since you have to learn to use your characters, not glitches.

brawl? more pure? do you mean there arent any glitches in brawl?
fun is something pretty objective plus you're implying that in melee ONLY glitches were used , since when? maybe you.

 

[Thino]

*trips*
...
oh shi-

 

[uberdan101]

The trip was added on purpose. As such, it's not a glitch. Look it up. Every single MLG or "competitive" player used basically nothing but glitches to win. Those of us who weren't cheap enough to use glitches had no chance. They get rid of those glitches now, and as far as we've been able to tell, Brawl is a more pure game since you can win without having to rely on glitches.

 

[NES n00b]

The trip was added on purpose. As such, it's not a glitch. Look it up. Every single MLG or "competitive" player used basically nothing but glitches to win. Those of us who weren't cheap enough to use glitches had no chance. They get rid of those glitches now, and as far as we've been able to tell, Brawl is a more pure game since you can win without having to rely on glitches.

Lawlz, why does it matter if they won with glitches are not? Instead of labelling what is a glitch and what is not how about you just try to play the game and actually try to win. You might actually be ok at this game and win for once.

 

[DragonBlade]

To DragonBlade:

Maybe you didn't realize that according to the creators, your "ATs" were glitches (except for L-canceling) and shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. As such, Brawl is more pure, and much more fun since you have to learn to use your characters, not glitches.

People need to stop trying getting into semantic arguments about ATs like this. It doesn't matter what they are or their intent. The reality is that they were in Melee, and it really made the game interesting and much more fun for competitive play, yet they were taken out in Brawl.

I cant believe I'm promoting Blizzard now, but if you are keeping up with Starcraft 2 development, you'll notice that the developers are trying to keep some old mechanics from Starcraft that they originally didn't intend (like unit stacking). They realized that even though they might not have planned the feature, it was a interesting feature in the game. Theres no reason Sakurai couldn't have done that. Its sad he decided to take everything out instead. He didn't even stop at talking out ATs that only the competitive players would have utilize consistently, but he also took out minor techniques and as Eternal phoenix Fire mentioned, which many people utilized.

 

[LouisLeGros]

I don't think they should have unit stacking in starcraft, or well building stacking is great for use map setting games...

but this is brawl, the only comparison I can really see between the two is that Blizzard seems to be purposefully attempting to support competitive play. Nintendo seems to trying to cater to the casual audience and competitive play be ****ed if it gets in the way.

 

[Cookiez]

Double post... Laggy as hell. Mod please delete ty :D

 

[Cookiez]

The trip was added on purpose. As such, it's not a glitch. Look it up. Every single MLG or "competitive" player used basically nothing but glitches to win. Those of us who weren't cheap enough to use glitches had no chance. They get rid of those glitches now, and as far as we've been able to tell, Brawl is a more pure game since you can win without having to rely on glitches.

...No Johns

Sorry, couldn't resist.

But anyway, the actual post. The word "Pure" is highly subjective, it's rather difficult to define. But i'm taking you definition "Pure" here, to be synonymous with "dumbed down (aka closer to the way Sakurai wants)". For thats precicely what happened. You may not understand, but ATs in melee were in no way instawin techniques. They merely provide alternatives to any given situation, adding layers of depth to the game, and indeed it was perhaps solely due to these ATs that the melee competetive scene survived for so long. Basically, you're complaining that players who have taken their time and effort to master all aspects of Melee to improve their game will beat you 90% of the time, purely because you cannot be bothered to put in any effort. Sakurai most likely removed them, is explained in the following post:

I don't think they should have unit stacking in starcraft, or well building stacking is great for use map setting games...

but this is brawl, the only comparison I can really see between the two is that Blizzard seems to be purposefully attempting to support competitive play. Nintendo seems to trying to cater to the casual audience and competitive play be ****ed if it gets in the way.

Please stop sounding so Bitter.

 

[Thino]

I wasnt talking about tripping anyway just edited "accidental" double post lol. anyway i wont be argueing over semantics call them what you want
but competitive players dont use only glitches , they also know how to use their characters , trust me in melee someone who learned ONLY WD , and SHFFL aka glitches in melee would be ***** badly even by casuals.

as for brawl being more pure ... because it doesnt have any glitch? where have you been since the game is out in Japan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhAkjjtT_PU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfue8vGEDcc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vifGhowiFmI

more fun? who told you that learning glitches wasnt fun too?

seriously casuals dont have that "do everything the game has to offer to win" mindset
so they classify glitches as cheap , meant to be in the game or not , they ARE in the game
so not using them is the same as no grabbing , no shielding or no edgeguarding

 

[xjamz650]

U can still use LCancel and wavedashes...

eh? only on melee psh...just like a move "glitch" but still an effective move that can really spice up a game. I almost had it down. Not like some of you glitcher! but still i am a smasher. Brawl to me when i first played it was lik a brand new game. Nothin like melee. slower pace, no L canceling or wave"dancing" but still they should of left it in brawl it would of maybe been a "funner" game more competitive. I got used to brawl and found little "glitches" with different characters but not as good as L Cancelin, and wavedashing. The only thing you can do i play and smash.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Please stop sounding so Bitter.

I can't after what Sakurai did to My Captain Falcon

 

[timbers92]

In melee I thought I was pretty good without l-canceling and all the other techniques. I was just beginning to learn wavedashing when Brawl came out.

 

[uberdan101]

Lawlz, why does it matter if they won with glitches are not? Instead of labelling what is a glitch and what is not how about you just try to play the game and actually try to win. You might actually be ok at this game and win for once.

I made it to the semi-finals 2x in 3 tournaments, without using glitches. I think that makes me okay.