NYC/LI Power Ranking - New Rankings! Good stuff at Poly guys!

[Angel.M <3 C:]

I have no problem with IC chaingrabs.

I just hate fighting the character.

 

[Inui]

I have no problem with IC chaingrabs.

I just hate fighting the character.

STOP TALKING ABOUT ICS

AND TALK ABOUT THIS

http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusion/topic/7300666/1/?x=40
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/fe/

 

[Sorto]

ICs grabs are totally legit. If you cant avoid them with a big sword and big turtle, well then maybe you should reexamine your playstyle.

 

[Inui]

ICs are bad.

 

[Sorto]

^^^ Tru dat

 

[-RedX-]

STOP TALKING ABOUT ICS

AND TALK ABOUT THIS

http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusion/topic/7300666/1/?x=40
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/fe/

Ok since Shadow Dragons was a remake of Book 1(FE1), that's a remake of Book 2(FE3), right? ;o

 

[Vinnie]

ICs grabs are totally legit. If you cant avoid them with a big sword and big turtle, well then maybe you should reexamine your playstyle.

Blizzard camping beats Marth.

Turtle can be pivot grabbed iirc... and if it hits their shield, they can grab it unless it's fade-away. Bair is actually pretty bad in the matchup.

 

[Sorto]

Blizzard camping beats Marth.

Turtle can be pivot grabbed iirc... and if it hits their shield, they can grab it unless it's fade-away. Bair is actually pretty bad in the matchup.

Blizzard camping allows marth to trade hits with you if he DIs it intelligently. Also, its the only thing they have that outranges him. So maybe they can get the kill at what 400% if they freeze you and shoot you off the top. To kill you they have to hit you with very slow, not large ranged, somewhat weak smashes or a grab. If they land those on marth he wasnt spacing well at all. There kill moves are slow (minus grabs) and not long ranged. You play Game and Watch, its like landing one of his smashes, except they have less range and kill like 20% later (minus the grab).

The turtle can not be pivot grabbed . Also if you backair and space it even remotely decently they can not sheild grab or sheild drop and dash grab.

I play ICs and used to play them alot more. If you go back and read earlier posts on smashboards, you will see that I got the grab pretty much banned on long island during the earlier days of brawl. At the very least it was banned at all the castle golf tournies cause of me. So trust me, I know the mechanics of the grab perfectly.

I have played good marths and good game and watches. My game and watch experience is much more then my marth experience, since my old roommate mained game and watch. Spacing bairs correctly will make it impossible for you too get grabbed. It is actually a very good tool against them. Also, I knew the match up so well, that no joke one grab on game and watch was a guarenteed death 98% of the time. The only times i ever failed it, once I got it down, were when either popo or nana tripped. Human error was not part of the equation. When he played it right it was hard to get those 3 grabs. And whenever I got it, it was because he miss-spaced or I read him well and he knew he was gonna be grabbed before it happened. It didnt happen when he spaced correctly and played smart! Actually this friend of mine 3 stocked cheeses climbers (when cheese was more of a nub) and didnt even take 50% damage in the match using game and watch. So as I said before, learn to space correctly and you wont have a problem.

 

[Vinnie]

ICs aren't going to sit there and shield. If they dash in and have momentum and you turtle, they can shield drop dash grab, no matter the spacing. Cheese and I both talked about it, it's unsafe on block unless it's fade-away. I guess both of us should further test this, since I've played him in tourney about 7 times now...

also blizzard beats turtle, and if the blizzard isn't DI'd, it leads to a grab.

Trust me, I'm very good at the matchup on both sides. I'm very knowledgable about it lol.

 

[Sorto]

ICs aren't going to sit there and shield. If they dash in and have momentum and you turtle, they can shield drop dash grab, no matter the spacing. Cheese and I both talked about it, it's unsafe on block unless it's fade-away. I guess both of us should further test this, since I've played him in tourney about 7 times now...

also blizzard beats turtle, and if the blizzard isn't DI'd, it leads to a grab.

If they dash in on you why would you continue to go in at them with your turtle? Wouln't it be smart against any character to fade away? Game and watches air movement allows him to shift directions rather quickly, almost instantly, without having to slow down and shift momentum like other characters (its supposed to add to his 2D feel). ICs grab range is tied with game and watches, third worst in game. The only other characters who have it worse are ganon and cf. Are you telling me when you bair your opponent, regardles of who they are they can always grab you? Is back air that lil range that every single character can grab you after it, if you space it well. B/c if the third worst grab range in the game can, I assume everyone can except maybe tethers and falcon and ganon?
You played him 7 times in tourny? Is that supposed to be alot? This kid was my roomate I probably played him 700 times.

Are you telling me that blizzard to grab is so fast of a combo, at its tip distances(since if he is hitting with it up close you are spacing poorly) that you dont have enough time to DI and spam Up-B to get away? Its not like trying to DI MKs downsmash(to survive), its like trying to DI out of a very long move (frame wise)

 

[Vinnie]

If the dash in on you why would you continue to go in at them with your turtle?

That's theorycrafting. If he was predicting a turtle (if I have my BACK FACING HIM), then he could run in. Hell, they can even shieldgrab ROB's dsmash with momentum.

Wouln't it be smart against any character to fade away?

...which is why I said, fade away bair is the only useful way it could be used in this matchup.

ICs grab range is tied with game and watches, third worst in game. The only other characters who have it worse are ganon and cf. Are you telling me when you bair your opponent, regardles of who they are they can always grab you? Is back air that lil range that every single character can grab you after it, if you space it well. B/c if the third worst grab range in the game can, I assume everyone can except maybe tethers and falcon and ganon?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYfunwOt9FU the spacing of the bair in this vid is bad, but a lot of the things done in this vid are all possible with even perfect spacing (minus fade away)

You played him 7 times in tourny? Is that supposed to be alot. This kid was my roomate I probably played him 700 times.

I was talking about in tourney, and since I don't go to many locals, 7 is a lot to me lol. Probably the person I've played the most ever.

Are you telling me that blizzrd to grab is so fast that you dont have enough time to DI and spam UP-b to get away? Its not like trying to DI MKs downsmash, its like trying to DI away from a very long move (frame wise)

It was just an example. There are other setups anyway.

The reason why I think this is a bad matchup for gw is because, combined with the shield-drop dash grab on the turtle...
-He's very easy to cg. At very high levels of play, this doesn't matter much, but it definitely helps.
-Blizzard camping hurts him, beats all of his moves. If you say "just approach them from above"...then that's when the desynched climber uairs and starts uair chains. If they read an air dodge during the uair chains, they can get a grab.
-Their uair beats his dair. Meep SD'd his first stock against me. I tried platform camping, but my damage built up and I died.
-Gw is forced to approach when behind, because of his lack of a projectile. ICs are one of the few characters that can take advantage of this the most.
-Dtilt, dair, bair, and nair are all practically unsafe when the ICs are good at getting the grab. This limits gw's options in a lot of situations, which is, needless to say, very, very bad against ICs.


edit: btw NL showed me this thing... he SDI'd my bair and naired, then grabbed. He says it's a combo.

 

[Sorto]

^^^ What I am saying is, trade hit with the IC. There kill moves are all some what close range. Sure you will take lots of damage, but if you trade hits with blizzard all day, I am certain you will knock away his nana before he kills you with a close ranged move or blizzrd. If you knock away his nana you should be able to kill her with your strong moves and g&w vs popo is a joke matchup.

Plus what I said isnt theorycrafting. Check my edits. G&Ws air movement is unique. He does not have to decelerrate as much as other characters to chaneg direction. He can change direction in air much more easily. If they dash in on your turtle then you should change momentum then. Its not like they can grab you while your turtle is hitting, they have to wait till the last hit finishes. If you started your turtle early this is enough time for you to pull out if necessary.

edit::I watched the video- everytime he got grabbed the spacing was god awful. You should rewatch it. The jabs hit him when he spaced well, but the grabs did not

 

[Vinnie]

Its not like they can grab you while your turtle is hitting, they have to wait till the last hit finishes. If you started your turtle early this is enough time for you to pull out if necessary.

No, they can grab me while my turtle is hitting lol. Even if I buffer a fast-fall, they can drop their shield and get a dash grab in, before I land.

edit:

I watched the video- everytime he got grabbed the spacing was god awful. You should rewatch it. The jabs hit him when he spaced well, but the grabs did not

I know, which is why I said the spacing was bad. However, the ICs CAN get a grab in after a turtle, unless it's fade-away. That's where the debate stands, we can get an ICs player to come in here and confirm it / deconfirm it I guess, since we're both pretty confident in our beliefs.

 

[Sorto]

I am fairly certain the hitboxes on the turtle are 3 frames apart. They can't grab you on those 3 frame sections. Grabs take 6 frames to send out. They can only grab you on the space before the last big hit. You should not try to fast fall and just try to pull out. And if he is dash grabbing like you say then he can not be grabbing you during the turtles hit frames. As a dash grab out of sheild from the climbers takes 14 frames for popo and 20 for nana, plus sheild stun, meaning one of them would have had to been hit for sure.

**Also you can start a back air in place (with c stick) and if they dash in you can fade away and if they dont try to dash you can approach. Its really quite simple.

Also after you back air what is the first thing you do after the move has finshed? With the crazy wind and invincibility it should only be one move Up-b

 

[ch33s3]

Ice Climbers can always, 100% of the time, grab any turtle that touches them, or their shield (yes, you can grab on HIT, except maybe tipped retreating, even then they probably can). I'm REALLY HORRENDOUSLY bad at it, but ISSDI makes the turtle entirely useless. GW has options, bair isn't one of them.

 

[Sorto]

Ice Climbers can always, 100% of the time, grab any turtle that touches them, or their shield (yes, you can grab on HIT, except maybe tipped retreating, even then they probably can). I'm REALLY HORRENDOUSLY bad at it, but ISSDI makes the turtle entirely useless. GW has options, bair isn't one of them.

Are you talking about DIing through the hit?

 

[ch33s3]

On hit, yes, DI through and grab, every time. ISSDI you just DI towards it.

 

[Sorto]

Cheese I can almost see that being possible. Being able to DI the turtle into a grab if you were hit by it. Since with other characters I have pulled off some funny **** after getting hit with the turtle. But on sheild would you say turtle is safe if spaced rite? Should an IC be able to sheild drop and dash grab G&W, if he spaces well. B/c that is what PGN was describing and that just sounds wrong to me.

 

[ch33s3]

Yes, ICs can shield drop grab almost any spacing of turtle, as well as just grab between hits, lol.

 

[Sorto]

You can not grab between hits if it is spaced rite. The sheild drop one may be possible(in terms of always getting the grab). But the grabbing between hits thing is impossible only because of range mixed with actual frame timings. Like that one I dont have to prove, its mathematically proven on its own to be true (can't grab during the hits) with good spacing. But the sheild drop one is harder to prove to be impossible thats why I asked your opinion.

 

[ch33s3]

You can not grab between hits if it is spaced rite. The sheild drop one may be possible(in terms of always getting the grab). But the grabbing between hits thing is impossible only because of range mixed with actual frame timings. Like that one I dont have to prove, its mathematically proven on its own to be true (can't grab during the hits) with good spacing. But the sheild drop one is harder to prove to be impossible thats why I asked your opinion.

Shield drop single climber forces hitlag for GW on the other climber's shield. So neener.

 

[-RedX-]

People actually practice in-shield-SDI in Brawl?

 

[Vinnie]

Umm so yeah, now that that's clarified...

Gw's only super huge benefit in this matchup is benefitting A LOT from when the ICs are separated. I managed to separate Cheese's Nana and nair chained her while his Popo tried to interrupt with uair, but I spaced it. Now that Nana had about 90 damage, I hit Popo away, and f(u?)smashed her.

Also his gimping power on them.

People actually practice in-shield-SDI in Brawl?

IC mains practice all different types of ways they can get grabs... if you run around and mash grab, you're not getting anywhere lol. You must be prepared for every situation in game.

 

[Sorto]

Back Aerial
Frame Breakdown:
• 1-9 Startup
• 10-11 Hitbox out
• 13-14 Hitbox out
• 16-17 Hitbox out
• 19-20 Hitbox out
• 22-23 Hitbox out
• 24-39 Aerial cooldown

Frame Summary:
Duration: 39
1st hit on: 10, 13, 16, 19, 22
Aerial cooldown: 16
Landing lag: 12
Shield stun: 1
Shield advantage: -10
Shield drop advantage: -3

Shield advantage: -10: This means if you are within the ICs grab range, third worst in game, only better then falcon and ganon that they can sheild grab G&W easily (meaning poor spacing). Since they don't have to drop there sheild, they have an Out of Sheild Option

Shield drop advantage: -3: This means if you are outside of the ICs grab range they have only 3 frames to land a dash grab on you before you can do something. Since the ICs dash grab takes 8 frames plus dash time, you can pull off atleast a 5 frame move to tie with them (meaning you hit at the exact same time they land the quickest possible dash grab they can get). Up-b becomes invincible on exactly frame 5. That means with good spacing if you just spam up-b after the turtle you will get away safely everytime.

Up B (Fire!)
Frame Breakdown:
• 1-8 Startup
• 9-29 Hitbox out
• 30-33 Parachute appears
• 33-48* Cooldown

Frame Summary:
Duration: 48
Hits on: 9
Landing lag: 41
Invincibility: 5-13
Soonest ledge grab: 15
Shield Stun: 2

Character: Standing grab, Running Grab, Pivot Grab
Ice Climbers: 6, 8, 8
*All information is from character boards or smash wiki

 

[ch33s3]

Did you read anything I said?

 

[Sorto]

Shield drop single climber forces hitlag for GW on the other climber's shield. So neener.

Ok so you sheild drop with Popo, that takes 6 frames. You go for a dash grab that takes 8 frames. Nanas sheild has dropped before the grab was even landed (since she is 6 frames behind). Meaning her sheild has been down for atleast 2 frames. Thats a total of 14 frames to land the grab in between two hitboxes. Nana sheild does add hitstun, but it does not turn 3 frames of stun into 14 especially when its not even up for the last two frames of the attack. That is if you tried to grab inbetween the hitboxes. Your saying that Nanas sheild is some magical sheild that multiplies hitstun by 14. SInce her sheild is down for 2 frames out of the original 3. Thats ridiculous and its wrong. SO neener

 

[ch33s3]

I'm not even going to bother.

 

[Sorto]

I'm not even going to bother.

Just to let you know. If her sheild was as good as them one I mentioned mathematically having to exist in your scenario (14x multiplier). If MK downsmashed you and you sheilded with just her, it would be more then one complete second before the back swing even appeared. Just too put it in presective. If it added 13 frames instead of multiplying my 14, which could be your argument, then if both nana and popo sheilded mks downsmash, it would be more then a complete half second before mks back swing appeared. Both of which sound visibly weird and are not the case.

 

[Inui]

ICs and GaW both suck.

 

[Angel.M <3 C:]

KSDJdGJGNSDG SCREW ICSS.


FIRE EMBLEMMMMMMMM <333

 

[Inui]

Marth sucks too.

Yes, new FE coming out soon. Hopefully it's better than Shadow Dragon. Character development, supports, rescuing, etc. PLEASE.

 

[Angel.M <3 C:]

He does suck, but i <3 him.

Hopefully marth looks better though >_>

 

[-RedX-]

Why is there more Marth for FE series? >_> They remade his games like...3 times so far.
I want new series. ;[

 

[Inui]

Remake of FE 4 plz. It has the best plot by far. It just needs better gameplay.

The hack for it I have that balances weapons and buffs enemies is hawt.

Edit:

let's talk about doubles

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=70776

 

[Jem.]

Anybody have recent vids I can watch of you all? Within the last month preferably

also good stuff everyone!

 

[ch33s3]

Anybody have recent vids I can watch of you all? Within the last month preferably

also good stuff everyone!

Anytime I play well, it gets hidden away in a vault because people hate the climbers. We haven't had much NY-specific activity in a bit, there's a NY tourney this weekend I'll be saving replays from.

 

[Vinnie]

there's a NY tourney this weekend I'll be saving replays from.

o_O link!!!

 

[ch33s3]

o_O link!!!

SOS gamers on Sunday... it's stuck.

 

[Vinnie]

O.O

/****s pants

 

[Delta-cod]

Vinnie is mad observant.

Ice Climbers are gay.