np 1-2: Fly Fly Fly

[Terywj [태리]]

np 1-1: Into The Beginning

This thread will be for discussing our PokeCenter Metagame. The goal is not to find "Suspects" per say but to figure out what's working and what isn't. For Pokemon of their respective field they'll need to be buffed or nerfed.
SmashCAP Pokemon will be revised in their respective final product threads.
The changed NU/UU Pokemon will be revised in the NU to OU thread.
New additions from SmashCAP / NU to OU will also be listed here for reference purposes.

Depending on how well we work this, we might need a "Council" group to head this process.

np 1-2: Fly Fly Fly

Next stage of about 20 Pokemon+Zook.

[collapse=Changes]Golduck
Trace/Cloud 9
HP to 90 Speed changed to 106, Defense up to 92, special defense to 85, new bst 550
Movepool- Power Gem, Thunder Bolt, Thunder Wave, Thunder, Grass Knot, Aura Sphere, Taunt

Purpose- A pokemon that can counter many differnt pokemon, but not every pokemon at once.
Cloud 9 allows him to stop SandStall and IceStall in its tracks, while Trace allows him to counter many different pokemon successfully such as Machamp, Heatran, GDose, Vaporeon, and many others. Giving its defensive stats a small bost allows it to switch in better amonst many different pokemon, while its increased speed further allows it successfully threaten many pokemon. The movepool additions also increase the number of pokemon he may threaten, and Thunder Wave allows him to be more than a pokemon that simply forces a switch.

Questions to be answered: Is having potent and relevant situational uses enough to bump a pokemon to OU viability?
Does trace do more harm than good to a Pokemon?
Will this Pokemon aid stall, or will it boost offense?

Glalie
- Ice/Dark
Solid Rock/Ice Body
HP- 115
Attack- 134
Defense- 125
Speed- 60
Special Attack- 96
Special Defense- 30

Movepool additions- Rapid Spin Payback Nasty Plot Knock Off Punishment Gravity
Create a Pokemon that is not forced switches by ghost pokemon, and makes ghost pokemon think twice about switching in to block rapid spin.
Using his dark type, and new hefty attack stat, THE EVIL GLALIE proves to be as scary an attacking force as TTar, though lacking the superior typing and bulk of TTar. In relation to Weavile, who shares the same duel typing, Glalie can better handle steel users thanks to his bulk, Filter, Earthquake, and Gravity. However, lacking the speed and access to Pursuit, he can not preform the revenge killer role nearly aptly as Weavile. Using Nasty Plot, Glalie has the potential to run a potent Mixed set for a surprise factor, but to apty do this it must sacrifice its Rapid Spin functionality.

Questions to be answered-
Does this pokemon successfully prevent ghost pokemon from switching in during its rapin spins?
Does this pokemon discourage early set up of entry hazards, and encourage supporting pokemon that set them up instead?
Does this Pokemon's weakness to Stealth Rocks hurt its ability to push away entry hazards?

Marowak-
Arena Trap/Rock Head
Movepool changes- Head Smash

Purpose- To discourage the oversaturation of walls.
Marowak is known for one thing, hitting, and hitting hard. With the highest attack stat in the game from a non-boost, Marowak is a warning to all those who don't want to take a hit. By granting him Arena trap, he attempts to turn otherwise potent walls into setup Material. Blissey is now a desired target, setting up perfectly for an Aligiwak sweep. Though still weak to priority, especially after taking 2 Sesimec tosses to the skull (puns lol), Marowak can potentially wreck an unprepared stall team to pieces. A lot of stall has been added to the metagame as of late, and this is set to level the playing field.

Questions to be answered-
Does this pokemon successfully fullfill its purpose of taking care of pure walls?
Does this pokemon serve as a revenge killer despite its poor speed, lack or priority and bulk?
Does this pokemon aid to the destruction of stall teams?

Dugtrio-
Attack 110

Ninetails
Fire
Magic Guard/Normalize
Hp80 Attack 75 Defense 80 Speed 115 Special Attack 90 Special Defense 100
Movepool changes- Destiny Bond, Wish, Reflect, Light Screen, Baton Pass, Healing Wish, Pursuit, Moon Light, Extreme Speed, Taunt, Swicheroo, Thunder Wave, Superpower, Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak, Transform, Miracle Eye, Future Sight, Skill Swap, Role Play, Psychic, Me First, U-turn, Taunt, Encore

Purpose- Create an unconvential fire pokemon, test its potency.
Ninetails was always a somewhat odd pokemon, held back by a conservative movepool and subpar stats. By aliveating these two, as well as granting it the abilty Magic Guard, we give Ninetails a role not currently filled by Fire pokemon. Though Normal type was originally planned, it was completely inconsequential, did nothing to assist in its goal, and all together hurt more than helped once you begin to crunch the numbers.

Questions to be answered-
Can a fire type aptly preform the roles of supporter, status spreder, and assist?
Does Heatran stop any potential of a Fire Pokemon annoyer?
How does an additional status Pokemon effect the metagame?

Sabelye
Unaware/Clear Body
HP: 90 Attack: 100 Defense: 98 Special Attack: 104 Special Defense: 35 Speed: 108
Movepool additions:
Vacuum Wave Stealth Rock Grass Knot Rock Slide Aura Sphere Ice Beam Ice Shard Recover

Purpose- To take defensive features and attempt to turn them into offensive ones, and to discrouage stat boosters.
With a great defensive typing and abilities, we are attempting to create a Sabelye that can cause be an offensive power house. Using its typing and defensive stat to switch in, and its ability to prevent unwanted damage, Sabelye has the potential to run a very offensive set. However, will the mediocre HP and gastly special defense be enough to discourage defensive sets?

Questions to be answered-
Does this Pokemon effectively fulfill its purpose as an offensive Pokemon using defensive attributes?
Is the Dark/Ghost typing overpowered when not held back by poor stats and ability?
In what way does this pokemon effect the viability of others?

Altaria
Natural Cure, Vital Spirit
HP 100 Attack 70 Defense 104 Speed 116 Special Attack 50 Special Defense 110
Purpose- To test the supporting and defensive capabilities of the Dragon/Flying type.

Adding another cleric to the game seems very necissary amongst the many, many annoyers we have added thus far, from Parafusion Amphy, to the SmashCAP Lilli. However, in an enviroment where Sharpedo discourages the use of Dragons, and where Stealth Rocks are highly present, is it apt to say that this pokemon will still have large trouble fulfilling its roles, even with these buffs?

Questions to be answered-
How does Dragon/Flying stand as a defensive typing?
How does Sharpedo effect the potential of this dragon?
Does the addition of this cleric help to discourage the use of status moves?

Ditto-
Magic Guard
HP 200, Speed 110

Exeggutor
Compound Eyes
95 / 110 / 85 / 95 / 80 / 85
95 / 110 / 85 / 95 / 80 / 85
Will-o-Wisp

Shiftry would become:
Chlor/Vital Spirit
110 Speed, 100 SpA
Wood Hammer, EARTH POWER

Tropious would be:
Cholr/Insomnia
118 Atk 73 Def 102 SpA 78 SpD
Agility, Bounce, Wood Hammer

Pidgeot
Quick Feet/Air Lock
HP: 88
Attack: 127
Defense: 75
SpA 50
Sp.Def: 50
Speed: 110
Flare Blitz, Flame Wheel, Volt Tackle, Spark, Wish

Noctowl
Insomnia/Klutz
HP: 120 Defense: 98, Special Defense: 121
Trick, Wish, Will-O-Wisp, Amnesia, Calm Mind

Farfetch'd
Thick Fat/Water Veil
90/105/75/100/80/90
Power Whip, Water Sport, Aqua Jet, Aqua Tail, Dive, Waterfall, Brave Bird, Surf, Grass Knot

Swellow
HP 110 Defense: 110 Special Attack: 40 Special Defense: 80
Switcheroo, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Faint Attack, Punishment, Night Slash

Fearrow:
Hyper Cutter
Earthquake, Rock Slide

Staraptor:
Vital Throw

Castform:
100/100/100/100/100/100

Ampharos:
Volt Absorb/Quick Feet
Confuse Ray, Trick

Lanturn:
Volt Absorb/Marvel Scale[/collapse]

How long should suspect cycles be? 1.5 months seems a bit long, but I'm afraid a month might not cut it. If we're productive enough a month should be more than enough time.

I'll edit this as we go along.

 

[UltiMario]

Regigigas is still the same as before.

 

[Fuelbi]

Jumpluff needs to be suspect >_>

 

[UltiMario]

Jumpluff isn't broken at all.

>.>

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Regigigas is still the same as before.

Oh. Right. I'll remove him from the list.

 

[UltiMario]

So I just ***** Roach's Uber team with these NUs.

So far the most underwhelming Pokemon I've used is Typhlosion, but I see Fearow in a similar predicament. It needs CC or something.

 

[Wave⁂]

Fearow's biggest problem pre-change is poor type coverage. Now, we change it to... poor type coverage.

The only reason to use Typhlosion is to spam Eruption. Earth Power and Dragon Pulse are not Eruption, so it doesn't make a big impact.

Electrode is a beast of a lead. Taunt, Stealth Rock, Explosion. Except you ****ing outspeed everything. 'cept Rachi
I EVed my Trode so it outspeeds Aerodactyl, maxed out my Attack, then dumped the rest in SpAtk.

 

[UltiMario]

Why not EV it to Max Speed so you don't get Taunted by other trodes?

 

[Wave⁂]

Speed ties.

 

[UltiMario]

Naive Typlosion's HP Grass doesn't OHKO Swampert without LO.

SpA boost is needed.

Or at the very least Grass Knot.

 

[CRASHiC]

Give it Hustle. Now its a risky but potent mix sweeper.

or

Give it Insomnia. Now its a Breloom and Jumpluff counter.

 

[UltiMario]

Neither of those will help it OHKO Swampert with HP Grass.

 

[CRASHiC]

No, but a Flare blitz from a choice band Typholsian in sunshine is a 100 percent 2HKO with stealth rocks lol. I'm fine with pokemon having hard counters, long as they can be potent otherwise.

Looking at Fearow, if you give him Reckless, with a Life Orb and after one Sword Dance, he's doing 42.9% - 50.8% to a Tank Metagross set. Not incredibly impressive, but a helpful boost. Not to keen on this idea because I haven't looked into it too much, but its a suggestion.

 

[UltiMario]

I'm not sure if you understand this.

Swampert
HP Grass
Doesn't OHKO.

At least give him GK.

 

[rockem7]

Yeah, Typhlosion should probably get Grass Knot, seeing as almost everything else in this game gets it.

 

[Wave⁂]

Looking at Fearow, if you give him Reckless, with a Life Orb and after one Sword Dance, he's doing 42.9% - 50.8% to a Tank Metagross set.

How much is he doing to himself?

 

[UltiMario]

I'm not going to calc but I'll take a wild guess of....

Just about as much damage as he would do to gross.

 

[CRASHiC]

Has ANYONE tested Exploud?

 

[Circa]

Has ANYONE tested Exploud?

I would if I could. Exploud's biggest problem, imo though, was his lackluster bulk. I'm pretty sure that even if he works, he won't be anywhere near a top contender or anything due to reliability.

He'd also like Baton Pass with the new additions. I didn't notice it before because I wasn't really paying attention, but being Roar proof is nice for that sort of thing. Plus you already gave him all the moves he'd need to be top-notch at the role.

But like I said, I can't test. That's just my prediction. I always loved Exploud too...I wish I could.

 

[UltiMario]

Smeargle -> Mr Mime -> Exploud -> X

That's a god**** good BP chain if I've seen one. Allows the 3 Passers/Recievers rule, and covers like everything.

I'll test Exploud today, though, I have a set I wanna try out.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I guess I can find time to work some testing out myself, finally.

 

[mood4food77]

infernape + lilibelle = ****

 

[UltiMario]

Everyone is saying that out of the best revenge killer in the game (sharpedo), and some extremely bulky walls with good Attacking stats, our most broken Pokemon is.... Jumpluff?

It seems speed and Spore are getting on people's nerves, I don't see it, but then again, I'm the only god**** one here that is using Pluff correctly.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

And I've heard most unchanged has been Ampharos or Typhlosion.

Electrode has worked / is working great, though.

 

[Wave⁂]

Lilibelle
Underwhelming. Crappy typing is crappy; even with those great resistances, immunities, and stats, it can still be taken down by common moves. Investing special attack to kill Infernapes before they kill you really isn't worth it, since you can't do much aside from that.

Sharpedo
The new Scizor. Fake Out + Priority is as strong as a Scizor Bullet Punch [citation needed]. Worse typing and less bulky hurt it, though. Type coverage is a great plus.

Rampardos
Force a switch, Rock Polish, and you've won. Adamant Fire Punch can 2HKO standard Skarmory. And even if you're Jolly, all it can do is phaze you out, while you resist all common residual damage (sandstorm, Stealth Rock). Head Smash can OHKO Gliscor with Rocks. Hippowdon stops him cold, though.
Basically Agility Lucario and ****ing steroids.

Typhlosion
Underwhelming. As previously stated, Typhlosion's biggest selling point is STAB Eruption, so you're just going to be spamming that a lot. Earth Power and Dragon Pulse require prediction, since no one in the right mind will be using Life Orb Typhlosion.

Fearow
Sucks. ****ty type coverage is still ****ty. If you pair it up with Magnezone, you might do well, but then you're better off with Salamence.

Jumpluff
Pluff operates the same way as Breloom, only it can switch into less things, but it outspeeds more things.

Electrode
Best lead. Imagine an Azelf that can outspeed Aerodactyl. Granted, its Explosion is fairly weak, but it's still a ****ing Explosion.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Have we been able to use Calderan yet? What about Exploud and Luxray?

 

[Wave⁂]

Added some calcs for Rampardos.

I only commented on Pokémon I've encountered.

 

[CRASHiC]

Fearow's most usable asset right now is Baton Passing. If you can find something to cause a switch, yuo can get off a stat boost and an instant baton pass into something, that boost being either a sword dance or a agility boost. Sadly, this is all Fearow has going for it, and even still its not much. We need to come up with a plan for Fearow, because I don't want to give it something incredibly stupid like Flare Blitz. Ulti Suggest close combat, but then its still outclassed by Staraptor. I think we should come up with something else for Fearrow. As always, I like to craft completely new roles for pokemon to fill instead of stealing someone elses thunder (puns lol), so this is what I propose:

since we aren't really suppose to be talking abuot this right now, I'm going to collapse it

Spoiler

[/IMG]
this is Fearrow's shiny sprite. I say we make this his main sprite if possible.
If we make him an Electric/Flying physical sweeper, then I think we'll be onto something here. Using its resistances, not to wall but to find ways in and to set up, Fearrow's suddenly looking pretty **** nasty. Make sure to give him Volt Tackle, and as I mentioned earlier, give him Reckless and his STAB is looking rather deadly. Running U-turn/Volt Talke/Brave Bird/Sword Dance is a decent set. Of course, Priority is an issue, as is Stealth Rocks, recall damage, and potential Life Orb damage as well, so this isn't a perfect fix, but its an idea. Perhaps we could suck his defenses dry and put it all into his HP stat to make up for the recoil damage.

Pokemon I think we should leave alone:
Sharpedo
Jumpluff
Electrode

Pokemon that need further buffs:
Fearow
Typh
Amph

Pokemon I don't think we know enough about:
Lib
Exploud
Rampard

Pokemon I forgotten we had changed:
Luxary lol

 

[Sir Bedevere]

I remember when we thought Lili would break the game.

Sharpedo is indeed awesome.

Rampardos just forces the need for priority IMO, especially since it's weak to all the common ones (BP, Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave). Scizor, and now Sharpedo and Calderan should keep it in check. Otherwise just attack it outright; he's as frail as ****.

I think Typh just needs a few stats thrown around to get it going. One point in speed will let it always beat out base 100s, which makes it a reliable check to stuff like Salamence and Shaymin. Maybe give it 10 more points in Spa so even if you mispredict with DP/EP, you'll still be doing a bit of damage. Worst comes to worst, we can give him Magic Guard so he doesn't get ***** by SR and he can use LO without recoil.

Fearow does suck. As Ulti has been saying (I actually came up with the idea :3), giving it 90 Spatk and CC will make it into a faster, weaker Infernape. Something like SD/BB/CC/Heat Wave (Ulti made that set) should work pretty well.

Pluff is fine. Just a very good supporter now.

Haven't used or faced many Electrodes, so I can't comment on that.

I've only used him once, but Calderan seems to be working well. I used a Bulky DDTauntDeran (basically Gyarados with some stats moved around), and it worked pretty well. Still needs more testing IMO.

Exploud has been doing okay from what I've seen.

Lanturn didn't work well for the time I used him. Haven't seen anyone else use him. Needs more testing.

Haven't seen much of Luxray. Also have not seen any of Ampharos, or Bastiodon either.

 

[Wave⁂]

Scarf Rampardos is also a threat.

Speed is still the most important stat in the game.
Poor Lanturn and Ampharos.

 

[CRASHiC]

How can we change the metagame to not be based around speed? What Pokemon can we buff to discourage the use of fast Pokemon?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

If you mean speed involving priority I don't that will change.

Also, SmashCAP 4 concept, anyone?

 

[Wave⁂]

By Speed, we mean the Speed stat.
Speed is the reason why Latias and Garchomp were banned. Why Scizor is used. Why Salamence might become Uber. Why Scarf Jirachi is so potent. Why paralysis severely cripples many Pokémon.
Why Blaziken is lurking in UU. Poor guy.

Speed is the most important stat in the game, and I don't think there's a way to change that.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

By Speed, we mean the Speed stat.
Speed is the reason why Latias and Garchomp were banned. Why Scizor is used. Why Salamence might become Uber. Why Scarf Jirachi is so potent. Why paralysis severely cripples many Pokémon.
Why Blaziken is lurking in UU. Poor guy.

Speed is the most important stat in the game, and I don't think there's a way to change that.

For Scizor I believe you mean how Bullet Punch has priorty. Scizor's base Speed isn't exactly blistering.

 

[CRASHiC]

[6/30/2010 11:55:53 PM] Pearl: you have any ideas how to solve the speed problem?
[6/30/2010 11:56:12 PM] wavedashGD: the what?
[6/30/2010 11:56:19 PM] wavedashGD: you mean for amphy and lanturn?
[6/30/2010 11:57:20 PM] Pearl: no, the problem with the general metagame. If we can craft a metagame where speed isn't as important a stat, we wouldn't have a problem leaving these pokemon at slower speeds
[6/30/2010 11:58:06 PM] wavedashGD: i dunno, you'd have to buff stall a lot
[6/30/2010 11:58:12 PM] Pearl: aside from giving slower pokemon priotiy, and making an ultimate Gyroball user, me and Ulti got nothing
[6/30/2010 11:58:34 PM] wavedashGD: i don't think there's a way to make speed less important
[12:01:22 AM] Pearl: buffing Trick room up to 10 turns perhaps?
[12:02:21 AM] wavedashGD: well, the metagame would still rely on speed, it would just polarize it so you rely on high-speed or very low speed
[12:04:15 AM] Pearl: I'm not sure it would do that. There's a chance that it would encourage users to carry low, mid, and high speed pokemon in fear of there team relying too much on one tactic. Trick Room is failry common among users of all speeds. A mid speed support pokemon could carry Trick Room and use it to end an opponent trick room.
[12:04:37 AM] Pearl: we'd have to spread it around just a bit more to make the idea work though
[12:05:20 AM] Pearl: 10 is also probably too much
[12:05:28 AM] wavedashGD: i don't see the benefit of mid-speed pokemon. you're outsped when you go against trick room, and you're outsped against general offense.
[12:06:26 AM] wavedashGD: unless you're talking metagross-level bulk
[12:06:34 AM] Pearl: mid speed pokemon would be versatile. Against fast pokemon, they can use Trick Room to their advantage, and against a trick room user they could stop the trick room.
[12:06:39 AM] Pearl: Yes, I'm talking abuot bulky supporting pokemon
[12:06:46 AM] wavedashGD: well.
[12:07:03 AM] wavedashGD: i guess that might help, but
[12:07:06 AM] wavedashGD: it'd be a ***** to balance out
[12:07:20 AM] wavedashGD: since you need to balance the move itself and the pokemon, but slow and fast
[12:07:36 AM] wavedashGD: also, i don't like the metagame revolving around a single move COUGH STEALTH ROCK COUGH

best I could come up with.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

If we can work towards a Stealth Rock-less metagame I will be extremely pleased.

 

[CRASHiC]

Lickylicky with scrappy please, lol. I wonder how broken that would be. I think simply the act of making more pokemon with rapid spin would help, as your spinner would now be less predictable and less substitutable to ghost. Maybe we should give TTar rapid spin like Smogon suggested hahahahaha. In fact, if we spread around Rapid Spin in the next game, picking out all the pokemon that should have it, I think that would be a welcome change to the metagame. Now with Electrode, you kind of need it.

EDIT Spiritomb needs rapid spin.

 

[Wave⁂]

Just give every ****ing Pokémon Rapid Spin. I'm sure they can all spin.

 

[CRASHiC]

That **** might get way too crazy though Wave. Yeah, we all hate entry hazards, but why would we use any entry hazard when any pokemon could switch in and spin it away, and us not being able to predict it.

 

[Wave⁂]

That was a joke... but it might actually work out, since Rapid Spin is a waste of moveslot, since Stealth Rock is uncommon, since Rapid Spin is common.

Circular logic, but still.