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No tripping code 'tis out (Updated! Added NEW Ocarina version!)

Foxy

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Messages
3,900
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
No problem, always glad to help someone that's trying to do something that I know I'll like. :)

And, that's too bad because apparently, LeeHarris of teh SBR has been doing some hacking for the past few weeks and has been posting on the USB Gecko forums and gscentral boards asking for help on a few things because he too apparently plans to change Brawl to an extent, make a huge code apparently anyway (I don't know much about it, he's been keeping quiet about it now, it's because of him that we have the hit stun values because he asked Phantom Wings for them).

Just a bit of inside info: the SBR already has known about this and are already planning something for Brawl, I don't know what yet though so don't ask me, it just involves changing the hit stun and that's all I know unfortunately. XD
Yeah, I noticed that he's been working on similar stuff (which probably means he's a lot further ahead than my group). I assume that means that the SBR is in some shape cognizant of the hack and maybe participating in it, which is good.

Hopefully they are TOO far ahead, though... maybe I can push it during the last week or two of summer and see if I can figure out what they've done.

I'm sure that at least hitstun is relatively easy to change, or removing airdodging, and either the SBR isn't very focused or they already have a working hack.

Maybe I can beat them to it. =O
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Yeah, I noticed that he's been working on similar stuff (which probably means he's a lot further ahead than my group). I assume that means that the SBR is in some shape cognizant of the hack and maybe participating in it, which is good.

Hopefully they are TOO far ahead, though... maybe I can push it during the last week or two of summer and see if I can figure out what they've done.

I'm sure that at least hitstun is relatively easy to change, or removing airdodging, and either the SBR isn't very focused or they already have a working hack.

Maybe I can beat them to it. =O
All I know is that LeeHarris showed up the day Ocarina was released (which was the 28th) so, I don't know if the SBR has been working on it since the USB Gecko released or since Ocarina released.

Yeah, it should be, testing it for balance issues is the next thing and I wouldn't mind doing that, I've got a bunch of friends I can try it out with. So, if you need any testing for balance, I can be one of those people. ;)

I added videos of the code in action and one replay that used the code before but, it's shown what it does without the code on. It's very interesting, go watch them.
 

talkingbeatles

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
790
Location
Austin, TX
Yeah... let's just fix all the problems of the game we don't like, so it's like, we're making our own game or whatever. Yeah... that would be cool. I mean, **** actually dealing with the new physics and tripping and all that **** we don't like. Let's just ****in hack the game. **** yeah. I mean, then it's gonna be just like Melee, right? Awesome.

Tripping is for ***s. Huhuhuhuhuh.....
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
It is not clearly stated it is insinuated. It is more clearly stated concerniong business practices and the like.


Let me explain in further detail.
1.Terms of Use. It dictates how the hardware should be used. Hence because they are telling you how it should be used this insinuated that you are only using it you do not own it. Otherwise they have no right at all as to declare what you can or cannot use it.
2. To provide an example let us say I buy a Dell Laptop. It says as long s you do not use Internet explorer the warranty lasts forever and covers A,B,C and D. hence they are saying what are the limits of how you should be using it. Similar to how if I gave you a dollar and said, only use this for chocolate if you use it for otherwise I will cut your balls off.
3.
NOw let us say I am building a laptop. I buy all the hardware, the processor, motherboard etc etc. Now I have built my laptop from the pieces I bought. This means that I own it because I created it, I can choose how or how not to use it (unless federal law says otherwise). It is my property.


The difference between 2 and 3 is that in 2, you are getting it from a company. That company is giving you the hardware but only for certain uses. So you are restricted to those uses otherwise the warranty is voided, and they will not do anything if you break it.

If you did actually own the hardware, Nintendo would NOT be allowed to brick it if you were to mod it.
So lets go back to my handmade laptop. If Microsoft bricks the laptop, I am within my rights to sue them for bricking the laptop.
This is why if your wii gets bricked by Nintendo, you cannot do a **** thing because its THEIR wii. you only by the usage.


Again this is how the Datel v. NIntendo ruling came into play concerning the AR.
Yeah you can use 3rd party software to mess with their stuff, but once you do so they can brick it because it is THEIR hardware.

Am I clearer now?


On another note, I am very strongly against adding L-canceling. As much as it might make some characters better, it isn't really a good mechanic to begin with. If a move is too laggy to be successfully used during game play, that is a design flaw. Lag is a good way to limit the power of specific moves and ensure that more of a character's moveset sees use. Despite the fact that L-canceling only reduces lag, it increases the usefulness of some moves more than others.
Except that if L canceling brings balance to the game that does not exist. If there was no L canceling in melee, Bowser, ganondorf and other characters would be completely unusuable.

The fact that it contributes to competitive play by making all the characters viabl e is good. Especially since its universal.
Adding technical skill isn't going to improve Brawl all that much, despite how much many people think it will. The real talent of the Super Smash Bros. games comes in the ability to react, adapt, and THINK in new situations. I don't remember who said it, (sorry) but I feel the need to share this comment. Technical skill is just a ceiling that good players are expected to reach. The thing that makes a professional player truly special is their thinking ability in match situations.
Technical skill isn't what made melee either. Technical skill only added to what was already there.
IC's are arguably the most technical character to use in melee.
Eddie is the most technical character in GG. Simply because alot of tech skill is involved doesn't mean the gmae it sbetter, it is how it is put to use.
 

Dj Chopin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
105
Location
St. Louis, MO
its true, hackers never stop messing around. but everyone should know, unless you have a multimillion $ budget to pay your hacker friends to rebalance the whole game, leave it at tripping. i dont care how sad you all are that you have to learn a new game and can't ride out your melee skills for the rest of your lives. footstooling is fine and useful, leave hitstun as it is. no one wants melee 2.0 except all the old melee whores, it won't fly in tournaments.
 

Hawks go Caw

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
598
Location
New Orleans, LA
So I understand that moves that automatically induce tripping will still cause tripping, but how about moves that occasionally cause tripping such as Falco's reflector?

---

This is how I'm understanding ShadowLink's side of the legal argument:

When I go out and buy a can of spray paint, I don't actually own the paint. I only own the usage of the paint. The paint still belongs to the company. Thus, when I spray into a sock and sniff the fumes to death despite the company telling me not to on the can, the company is not responsible for my death.
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
Location
Alabama
Except that if L canceling brings balance to the game that does not exist. If there was no L canceling in melee, Bowser, ganondorf and other characters would be completely unusuable.
Are you suggesting adding L-cancelling to Brawl?

If you wanted to do that, you should do it without requiring the user to press L. In effect, just half the landing frames of every move in the game. Requiring players to press L to get that is just hassle, and it's tech ceiling, which as you say, never is what the difference between winner and loser is anyways.
 

Dj Chopin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
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this discussion is starting to depress me. eventually, the people that want all these obsessive changes to the game are going to be so detached from the reality of brawl that reading the forums will do them no good. oh, and nobody will be playing the same version of the game, so they won't be able to compete either.
 

petrie911

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Messages
310
Are you suggesting adding L-cancelling to Brawl?

If you wanted to do that, you should do it without requiring the user to press L. In effect, just half the landing frames of every move in the game. Requiring players to press L to get that is just hassle, and it's tech ceiling, which as you say, never is what the difference between winner and loser is anyways.
I'd say do it in the same way it was done in the Brawl demos--Aerials automatically L-cancel when fastfalled.

Oh, and while I'm sure this was mentioned, for God's sake, get rid of the grab release crap on Ness, Lucas, and Wario. All you'd need to do is give their release animations enough IASA frames to escape those stupid combos.
 

Foxy

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Messages
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Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Jesus Christ.

Honestly, all of you who think that modding Brawl is unethical, stupid, unneeded, too hard, double-edged, whatever, you're entitled to your opinions but we're going to mod it ANYWAY.

And also, stop making generalizations about WHY we want to mod it. We like competitive games that are fun. Brawl is not fun to play competitively, if you've ever been to a Melee tourney and a Brawl tourney there is a stark contrast.

/rant

Yeah, there's just too many people coming into this thread only to leave an uneducated statement hating on everyone who's working so hard to help Brawl. Really. If you have something like that to say, check to see if another user has already said it. They probably have.

On a lighter note, the grab release stuff absolutely needs to be fixed. The only reason it isn't banned or taken seriously now is because competitive Brawl is a joke anyways, nobody cares whether a few characters have impossible matchups. If changes were to be made to make it seriously competitive, however, it would be first on the agenda to fix.
 

Mmac

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
1,967
Location
BC, Canada
Are you going to change everyone's grab release stun/path, or just the ones that are severely effected (Ness, Lucas, Wario, Squirtle)?
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
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Messages
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So I understand that moves that automatically induce tripping will still cause tripping, but how about moves that occasionally cause tripping such as Falco's reflector?
Anything that induces a trip through a move or item will still work regardless of the code. This includes Falco's reflector.
 

PK-ow!

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,890
Location
Canada, ON
Behind every word of praise for the no-tripping code is a John.

Pure and simple.

"Waaaah! I don't like it when my character trips!"

Rationalize it in any fashion that makes you feel good.

No Johns.
Tripping has never personally affected me. I've tripped, and I've seen people trip, but it's never decided my games, or done anything close - no one I play with has ever tried to make that claim.

But that doesn't make it right. Tripping is wrong. It should not exist. Accept this, because it will be removed, assuming that the other concern is solved (which I'll get to).


Uh, ok, I just looked through all of the manuals I got with my Wii, as well as the online manuals. It did not say that this information anywhere. If you really think its there, could you point out the manual and location of said information?

I honestly don't believe this at all. I'm not buying the use of the system; I'm buying the hardware. Modding the wii still causes you to lose the warranty because you signed the terms of use policy on several occasions. Basically, if you use the Wii outside of a way they deem is appropriate, they aren't responsible for what happens to it. You still own it, its just that they have no right to pay for it.

It's like when I buy bowling equipment. I own the actual bowling ball that I buy. But if I use it or drill it in a way that is considered "unsafe", the warranty is voided.
Are you familiar with licensing law? I haven't studied it formally, but I have fully read every TOU and EULA I have ever been prompted to electronically sign, from which I have picked up the gist of what each of them is trying to get from you.
If you really owned the Wii, the whole thing, then it would be within your right to decompile and reverse-engineer the Wii software. Nintendo has no intention of letting you do that, for good reason. They need to retain ownership of the intellectual property which the Wii's technology represents.

You purchase quite a lot when you get a Wii - they couldn't just give you a "license to use" since that just wouldn't work with a physical piece of equipment. But you don't own it entirely. One way they try to put these limitations on you is with the restriction in the warranty, and now this EULA which they can get you to sign electronically (which, admittedly, has a lot to do with the software of the Wii, but other stuff is there).


And WHY can't naysayers stay away from this thread? The thread in the GBD got locked because idiot after idiot came in and started debating the code when the thread was created for the purpose of showcasing the code, not for a discussion on it. Xsyven even came in and warned them and the debate didn't stop, so it just got locked eventually. STOP. Go away and play with tripping if you'd like, the people in this thread want to play without it. Deal with it.
Quoted for emphasis. I'll make sure not to be involved in a back-and-forth, myself. :)


Because some of the naysayers are here because they don't want the No-Tripping Code to become a tournament standard.

Making a hack a tournament standard sets a bad precedent and also forces anyone with any competitive intentions to have to get an Action Replay, and an SD card, and play with that code all the time.

Nobody wants to be forced into getting/doing something just because some people can't adapt.


If you want to play without tripping, that's perfectly fine.

But there are people here pushing for it to become a tourney standard, and that's not appropriate, because then you start pushing your ideal vision of the game unto others. And no one but the game developers should have that power.
This is a good point. Making this a tourney standard does force people to get this equipment. . . to train on their own time. Presumably offline tourneys just need the tourney systems to have the mod.
But good point, and I'm glad someone has put the point forward precisely.

EDIT: Except what you're saying is not what I'd agree with. It's just a relevant concern, about forcing people to get equipment. Your comment about "people can't adapt" is a sweeping generalization FoxySigma is right about not being sensible.
 

Foxy

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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Raleigh, North Carolina
Are you going to change everyone's grab release stun/path, or just the ones that are severely effected (Ness, Lucas, Wario, Squirtle)?
It would be nice to just change those that are really hurt by the grab release animations, like those you listed, probably by adding IASA frames as someone suggested earlier which is brilliant because they exist in just about everything and are probably easy to increase.

However it may be easier to just universally change all grab release animations so it could end up effecting all characters. We'll see.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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Cleveland, Ohio
OMG! Better bump, don't wanna get this thing lost. People who are interested and have wanted this for so long need to see it. :p
 

Pluvia's other account

Smash Master
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No Internet?!?
I've seen the "we'd have to get this equipment to take tripping out too if the tourney's started using it" argument used a few times. The answer to that is:

No. No you wont. You just wont trip when you go to a tourney. You don't need to buy any equipment to stop yourself from tripping on your console too.
 

Falconv1.0

Smash Master
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Feb 15, 2008
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Talking **** in Cali
No tripping is one thing, but changing everything we hate about the game is another thing. Give metaknight's attacks 1 damage per hit on everything if you're going to hack something. And snake, make his ftilt have the smallest hitbox in the game lol
What part of "we should only be changing things that affect everyone" do you people not get?

Seriously, we cant have a different ****ing game per wii because someone wanted to nerf MK or buff Yoshi.


No tripping, more hitstun, l canceling=Falcon's favorite game. Ever.

Also, I think a good idea would be for The TO's to have this **** ready, so if someone doesn't have the changes needed, they can apply them on the wii before the tourney begins.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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Also, I think a good idea would be for The TO's to have this **** ready, so if someone doesn't have the changes needed, they can apply them on the wii before the tourney begins.
Agree, because it's a petty quick install if you know what you're doing and you have ALL the files necessary on the SD Card.
 

DarkDragoon

Smash Champion
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AZ
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LordDarkDragoon
I've seen the "we'd have to get this equipment to take tripping out too if the tourney's started using it" argument used a few times. The answer to that is:

No. No you wont. You just wont trip when you go to a tourney. You don't need to buy any equipment to stop yourself from tripping on your console too.
>_> And what equipment?
An SD Card? Just go pull one out of your camera.
SD Card reader? Just hook your camera up to your computer and drop the files in.

<.< But uhh..if they do somehow add more codes to the "Tournament" set, then yea, they'd need those.
-DD
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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>_> And what equipment?
An SD Card? Just go pull one out of your camera.
SD Card reader? Just hook your camera up to your computer and drop the files in.

<.< But uhh..if they do somehow add more codes to the "Tournament" set, then yea, they'd need those.
-DD
And you need TP to install the Homebrew Channel but, if you already have the HBC, installing Ocarina only takes 30 seconds (30 seconds to pop the SD Card in with the necessary files for Ocarina, downloading it is a separate thing).
 

Falconv1.0

Smash Master
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Talking **** in Cali
I feel like I'm one of the few people excited to see what the SMART people will be able to do to Brawl, as long as we keep it universal. Come on, it cant be that hard, just make sure we don't have single character editing and stage editing at tourneys.


And no variations on hitstun. If we're going to change it, we need to have an acceptable number and stick with it.
 

Collective of Bears

King of Hug Style
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Is the No-Trip code really neccessary? Quite honestly, I'll trip maybe once every 10 matches, and ley's be honest here, that's not really enough to break the game.
 

DarkDragoon

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Is the No-Trip code really neccessary? Quite honestly, I'll trip maybe once every 10 matches, and ley's be honest here, that's not really enough to break the game.
>_> Tripping isn't broken.
Its annoying.
<_< Its like telling some noob to shut up because he/she is annoying, only this time we can make it happen 100% of the time.
-DD
 

cAm8ooo

Smash Lord
Joined
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Kentucky
I think its perfectly fine to use two hacks in tournament play, one being the tripping, and two being a hack that stops some stages from changing, like Castle Siege only being the first stage. Adding anything else like increased hit stun would create a whole new game that if tested for long long periods of time, i don't mind having as an Alt. tournament but by no means standard.

As far as character specific changes, i don't think we should ever use.
 

game set

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
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194
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Udora, Ontario
I dont play brawl, but a no tripping code would most likely interest me. I'm sure theres alot of people that want to have the game played their way, but the mob's will end up playing what they want to regardless of opposing opinion.
 

Someone7

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 23, 2007
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151
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Florida
?

It's not a program.
I'm simply referring to any line of binary code.

It's something like 28 million lines of code and honestly I'm not that programming fluent so I couldn't tell you what language it's in or what the structure of it is like. All I know is that it's been hard to work with so far (but not impossible, for example the variables for stages and such are readable and make sense with some logical deductions).
It would be obvious what language Brawl was programmed in if it were the true source code. And it would contain the all too crucial comments explaining what the code is actually doing, and variables would have names that make sense. What you did is basically useless with something as large as a modern video game. You'd be better off trying to rebuild Brawl from scratch than trying to make sense of the garbage spewed out by a decompiler.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
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Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
Are you suggesting adding L-cancelling to Brawl?

If you wanted to do that, you should do it without requiring the user to press L. In effect, just half the landing frames of every move in the game. Requiring players to press L to get that is just hassle, and it's tech ceiling, which as you say, never is what the difference between winner and loser is anyways.


Messing with hitboxes isn't hard but messing with the actual lag time upon using a move. A bit more tricky.
 

GofG

Smash Champion
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Raleigh, NC
I'm simply referring to any line of binary code.



It would be obvious what language Brawl was programmed in if it were the true source code. And it would contain the all too crucial comments explaining what the code is actually doing, and variables would have names that make sense. What you did is basically useless with something as large as a modern video game. You'd be better off trying to rebuild Brawl from scratch than trying to make sense of the garbage spewed out by a decompiler.
This just isn't true; with the decompiled assembly language we can edit any numeric value in the game. It's difficult to find what we want but, as any standard hex editor has a compare function, it's not impossible.
 
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