No More Advanced Techs: A Solution

[draigaran]

I'm not going to argue if using advanced techniques deviates from how the person is "supposed" to play. Rather, it should be that each person should play how they want to play, and because I found learning advanced tactics fun in Melee, I will be looking forward to those findings specific to Brawl in the future (which haven't been found yet because you know, it's only been less than a week). Anti-glitch players: don't play against glitch players :b.

 

[draigaran]

Sorry for double post, but yes I know most ATs are not actually glitches.

 

[GameAngel64]

I didn't read all these replies but for what it's worth, I like your post. I like that the "smarter," more perceptive player can win, rather than the player who just practiced button combinations more thoroughly. That's the problem with some other fighting games... the person who knows the advanced button combinations are bound to win and anyone who doesn't know them doesn't stand a chance. I know Melee was never that bad, and it is only fair that the more experienced and practiced player be expected to win, but still. It'll be nice if smart playing can be rewarded without requiring hours and hours of solo play time in order to get technical button maneuvering down.

 

[Andrew Ott]

The only reason ATs created a barrier is cause the people who only played for fun with friends didn't take time to learn them. They are all VERY easy after about 2 hours of total practice. Then applying them is so much fun it's not even considered a chore on my part.

I'm just excited that I get to be playing Brawl and finding new things about the game. ^_^

 

[Demon Kirby]

Melee had no advanced techs at the beginning, and people thought it was slow.

History repeating itself? I think so.

Wait for the game - hell, wait for a year AFTER the games release to judge, please.

 

[Brentos4o8]

Still. Mindgames own all.

 

[Sonic_Wolf]

this is a very good thing

 

[LunaEqualsLuna]

Definately agree wavedashing was a glitch skill and I'm glad its gone. It wasn't that me or my friends couldn't do it, or that we weren't competative players, it was simply that we wanted to play the game it was meant to be played and not just abuse bugs. If i were entering a tourney would i use it? of course, u pretty much cant win without it. But unlike other skills in the game it was clearly an UNFORSEEN consequence of the buggy physics in melee.

the fact that they went thru the effort to ensure wavedashing isn't possible in brawl and even took out L-cancelling says all that needs to be said on the topic with regards to Sakurai's intentions.

Now ,the game gets MORE competative because it is based on knowledge of using simpler techs but knowing how to use them as well as mind games, and knowledge of the characters moveset etc instead of a 'haha u can't use this glitch skill so you will never beat me' type scenario.

Regardless of anyones stance on the topic, the fact remains advanced techs are gone and the glitch skill players are FORCED to play the game it was meant to be played. The only people who are crying about this are those 'pros' whose only competative advantage against casuals were their knowledge of glitch skills. The true pros have far more weaponry than glitch skills and , will still dominate regardless of how they play.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Lol, I was going to make something like this!

WIN!

 

[joeysmash]

This is so right. If anything, its gonna be more competitive. Real pros will still dominate (if they really are pros).

Look, without many of these adavanced techniques, many characters considered bad and low tier may acually stand a chance against those who can no longer WD such as fox.

 

[shortwanabelaker]

I want to point out that I am NOT against advanced techniques. Anyways..

You don't have a clue what you are talking about now do you? Winning in melee has always been about intelligence, talent and playing smart. Do you honestly believe it was finger speed?

I don't think you understood my point. There are two categories that players need to excel in to be considered good: finger speed and smart gameplay. Taking out the finger speed requirement makes the game based on intelligent gameplay.

I don't think you read the "Mindgames" topic in the Melee general discussion did you?

I don't think I need to read it. Mind games are/should not be defined. Anything you do can be a mind game.

Okay, just let me point something out.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF ADVANCE TECHS ARE NOT GLITCHES

I completely agree but I never said that they were (although I don't think this is directed at me).

If anything, the mental game is what suffers the most from the transition from Melee to Brawl.

How does the mental game suffer if now you have to think more and its a bit harder to execute exactly what you want (if you are already amazing at all the adv techs).

Still. Mindgames own all.

Word.

This is so right. If anything, its gonna be more competitive. Real pros will still dominate (if they really are pros).

Look, without many of these adavanced techniques, many characters considered bad and low tier may acually stand a chance against those who can no longer WD such as fox.

I do agree that it will be more competitive and that some characters would drop while others would rise in the tier system. For example fox would drop and mew2 would rise. Please dont say bowser would still suck. Overall the I believe game will be more balanced without them but I dont want to get into that since I have nothing against adv techs.

 

[Erimir]

It's so interesting that I see all these posts about the happiness wavedashing is gone eventhough they don't realise what a huge loss it is if you look at edge guarding for example. You can't deny that if you look at the edge guarding you see in the vids now it doesn't look nearly as appealing as edge guarding in melee.

Why is that? Because it's harder? I feel like I'd prefer there to be less emphasis on edge guarding personally. Does that equate to the game being worse?

Wavedashing is the combination of the special land fall animation+directional airdodge+jumping(all of which were intended seperartely but it took a while for us to apply them together)=Not Glitch

SHFFL is Short hop+Fast fall+ L-cancel (non of which are glitches)=Not Glitch

I think the main point of the people calling it a glitch is that it was unintended. The components were not glitches, but that doesn't mean that the result of them was intentional. I'm not sure what you'd call that, since I guess it's not technically a glitch. Just an unintended consequence, I guess.

Or maybe it was intentional. I guess you'd have to ask Sakurai or someone on the Melee team to know for sure.

It'll be nice if smart playing can be rewarded without requiring hours and hours of solo play time in order to get technical button maneuvering down.

QFT

the fact that they went thru the effort to ensure wavedashing isn't possible in brawl and even took out L-cancelling says all that needs to be said on the topic with regards to Sakurai's intentions.

Also QFT.
Except for I'd modify it with regards to L-canceling. It was obviously intentional in SSB64 and Melee... if he took it out tho, it was for a reason. I'm thinking the reason he took it out is likely related to what GameAngel said right up there ^

Also, as others have said... I'm sure there will be plenty of techniques in Brawl that aren't obvious to the casual player... they just need to be discovered. But I'm guessing that there will probably not be any equivalent to wavedashing as far as how much it separates casuals from pros.

 

[behemoth]

This does NOT equal the playing field.

Wait, let me back up. The first 50 times n00b A plays brawl and pro B plays brawl, there is a very small gap between them. But there is a gap nonetheless.

Proof? Go watch some of the early leak videos, leaked by those not very good at this game. Or read IGN's review.

Now go watch the videos posted by competitive players.

Notice the difference?

If finger speed was all there was to separate, then the separation really was simply dedication. Any muscle movements of any speed can be attained then put into muscle memory. All it takes is dedication.

Those dedicated people (pr0s) didn't just practice the advanced techniques over and over, they practiced everything.

Such practice improves the intelligence of your game, too.

Therefore the dedicated player will STILL own the average casual, regardless of what techniques are used.

This is why I can't understand pros that are whining about the missing techs, nor casuals bragging/happy about them.

Its a bit shortsighted if you ask me.

But then again, no one did.

 

[shortwanabelaker]

This does NOT equal the playing field.

Wait, let me back up. The first 50 times n00b A plays brawl and pro B plays brawl, there is a very small gap between them. But there is a gap nonetheless.

Proof? Go watch some of the early leak videos, leaked by those not very good at this game. Or read IGN's review.

Now go watch the videos posted by competitive players.

Notice the difference?

If finger speed was all there was to separate, then the separation really was simply dedication. Any muscle movements of any speed can be attained then put into muscle memory. All it takes is dedication.

Those dedicated people (pr0s) didn't just practice the advanced techniques over and over, they practiced everything.

Such practice improves the intelligence of your game, too.

Therefore the dedicated player will STILL own the average casual, regardless of what techniques are used.

This is why I can't understand pros that are whining about the missing techs, nor casuals bragging/happy about them.

Its a bit shortsighted if you ask me.

But then again, no one did.

This is pretty much what I am saying, finger speed is not the defining role of game play (altho it doesnt hurt). Since being able to play at high speeds was a norm in tournament play, putting everyone on the same level should affect competitiveness.

Pros will still own noobs, but this time, if the noob picks up on the pros patterns quickly, he CAN stand a chance and he wont have to keep asking "how do move so fast with that cloudy stuff under you!?!?!"

 

[Ryuker]

You got the right idea. But right now the appeal is just way less. I see matches of brawl of good players who just got it and they are trying to make good use of it yet after that I see a melee match and there is just so much more fluid fighting, speed quick thinking so on. It just doesn't look appealing too me in the slightest. Obviously thats a bummer after waiting for 2 years when we felt we wanted something new to add to melee. And I'm sure a lot of melee players feel the same way.

Note: I am not saying it is a best game. I am saying that it doesn't seem like an improvement on what we had before. This might change but it doesn't seem like it right now. This was different compared to ssb64 I think cause that game felt like a improvement on every aspect.

 

[shortwanabelaker]

You got the right idea. But right now the appeal is just way less. I see matches of brawl of good players who just got it and they are trying to make good use of it yet after that I see a melee match and there is just so much more fluid fighting, speed quick thinking so on. It just doesn't look appealing too me in the slightest. Obviously thats a bummer after waiting for 2 years when we felt we wanted something new to add to melee. And I'm sure a lot of melee players feel the same way.

I must agree.. brawl matches are incredibly boring to watch so far, but as i posted somewhere else, they are probably incredibly fun to play.

 

[Deleted member]

Here is a brief list of traits I believe will lead to wins in Brawl:
• Player talent and intelligence instead of finger speed
• Ability to learn opponent’s patterns instantly
• Good timing of attacks so misses are rare
• Prediction to a whole new extent
• Playing around character weaknesses instead of through them

Basically, play smarter instead of faster.

Heck. If that doesn't sound like my fencing instructor, nothing does. Thank god both are complimentary .

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

The lack of advanced techniques seems to be a concern on everyone’s mind right now. I want to put in my input on the matter to show how it isn’t as bad as most think it is and possibly end to the commotion (not possible I know).

Let me start by saying competitiveness is not defined by speed. Melee may have been played at incredible speeds, but that didn’t necessarily define a higher level of play. The only thing that advanced techniques did was create a barrier between those who practiced using these techniques and those who didn’t. In reality it just created two types of game-play that rarely coincided. I believe that the true definition of competitiveness is shown when two players who are evenly skilled in the category of advanced techniques played against each other (this includes noobs and pros).

By removing the advanced techniques, the creators of Brawl have also removed this barrier. All players are on the same level now. What does this mean? A player’s ability will not be defined by how fast his fingers move from X to L and diagonal down to down B back to X and so on.

To give an example, what separates Ken, PC, M2K and who ever else from the rest of the population of pros? I’m sure that most of the pros and most of you who are reading this can wavedash, l-cancel, and all that other good stuff just as well as those guys. What set them apart is their mind games, timing (not only when to press what, but when to do what as well), and prediction.

Now due to all the advanced techniques being out, basically players lose “total character control.” This may be true but it does not mean that the characters are not controllable. Losing total control is something both sides will face, and keep matches at an even level. Not being able to wavedash or l-cancel will cause the game to be played at a slower pace. This does not take away from its competitiveness.

Pros will still be pros and will not lose to people who just pick up the game to play for fun. The competitive scene will still be the same but tournaments may have more entrants since the barrier has been broken.

Due to the lack of advanced techniques, Brawl will be based on player talent and intelligence instead of speed.
Here is a brief list of traits I believe will lead to wins in Brawl:
• Player talent and intelligence instead of finger speed
• Ability to learn opponent’s patterns instantly
• Good timing of attacks so misses are rare
• Prediction to a whole new extent
• Playing around character weaknesses instead of through them

Basically, play smarter instead of faster.



Personal note:

I want to say that I do not use any advanced techniques in melee. Before the flaming and the various “you fail” pictures begin to pop up, let me add that I have nothing against players who do use them. I actually like playing against those who do use advanced techniques rather than those who don’t. And yes, I’m sure most of you will destroy me in melee, but I have won against many tournament goers who are quite “techy.”




So this is my view on Brawl and the changes from melee and how it will affect the competitive scene. What do you think?


-- Edit --
I want to know why all the pros are so against removal of advanced techniques. It just means all games will be closer. As sakurai said, a noob should be able to kill a pro at least once in 10 games. Which means more people to play / beat.

What you don't realize is the lack of speed is reducing the amount of skill needed to reach a high level. The lack of advanced techniques means less things to practice. You might find that good, but I don't. Ya it doesn't mean the game won't/can't be competitive, but like I read on MLG once about H3. It lacks that "masterful" touch. That level you reach where you can tell a person has put in much much more time than the average competitive gamer. Games such as CS, SC, H1, or SSBM have that touch. Brawl might as well, but from the looks of it I dont think it does.

 

[shortwanabelaker]

I didn't read all these replies but for what it's worth, I like your post. I like that the "smarter," more perceptive player can win, rather than the player who just practiced button combinations more thoroughly. That's the problem with some other fighting games... the person who knows the advanced button combinations are bound to win and anyone who doesn't know them doesn't stand a chance. I know Melee was never that bad, and it is only fair that the more experienced and practiced player be expected to win, but still. It'll be nice if smart playing can be rewarded without requiring hours and hours of solo play time in order to get technical button maneuvering down.

Exactly!!!

What you don't realize is the lack of speed is reducing the amount of skill needed to reach a high level. The lack of advanced techniques means less things to practice. You might find that good, but I don't. Ya it doesn't mean the game won't/can't be competitive, but like I read on MLG once about H3. It lacks that "masterful" touch. That level you reach where you can tell a person has put in much much more time than the average competitive gamer. Games such as CS, SC, H1, or SSBM have that touch. Brawl might as well, but from the looks of it I dont think it does.

Lack of speed reduces the amount of physical skill needed which people need to compensate with mental skill. As I've said before, it just removes the barrier.

 

[Vijin]

I should have said that I don't like them. I play fair, as in without those glitches. Don't tell me they aren't glitches because they are. Anything that wasn't meant to happen/be in a game is a glitch. They shouldn't even be called techs, its more like advanced useful glitches.

Advanced useful glitches that you don't want to use because you deem it "unfair." and complain it wasn't meant to be in the game. lol

That's like seeing a 100 dollar bill on the floor and not picking it up because technically it should have been in that persons wallet.

 

[shortwanabelaker]

LOL @ #60.. ahhaha.. i agree

 

[Kirby M.D.]

This does NOT equal the playing field.

Wait, let me back up. The first 50 times n00b A plays brawl and pro B plays brawl, there is a very small gap between them. But there is a gap nonetheless.

Proof? Go watch some of the early leak videos, leaked by those not very good at this game. Or read IGN's review.

Now go watch the videos posted by competitive players.

Notice the difference?

If finger speed was all there was to separate, then the separation really was simply dedication. Any muscle movements of any speed can be attained then put into muscle memory. All it takes is dedication.

Those dedicated people (pr0s) didn't just practice the advanced techniques over and over, they practiced everything.

Such practice improves the intelligence of your game, too.

Therefore the dedicated player will STILL own the average casual, regardless of what techniques are used.

This is why I can't understand pros that are whining about the missing techs, nor casuals bragging/happy about them.

Its a bit shortsighted if you ask me.

But then again, no one did.

Thank you. This thread is a pointless exercise in casual circlejerking, let it die.
Some boards really need a sage function...

 

[$nuggles]

Exactly behemoth. You will NEVER understand. A pro who plays a game they love and a game that they KNOW they excel in. Some pros even dedicated their lives to smash and used it to pay for their college from all the money they gained by playing. They took pride in their game and were happy about the hours of practice they put in. You will never understand why a pro would complain? The amount of time they practiced to learn those things are all insignificant in the sequel and all they have left is mindgames. The barrier is gone, you are right, but so is the effort. In melee mindgames were the significant half in the tech/mind strategies, but because of the tech they were able to improve mindgames to a sophisticated level.

I'm not complaining about anything myself, but people who are like "why are pr0s complaining, etc..." Pros had technical skill, all of them, and to complain about how pros are whining is just ignorant because you will never understand if you never took the time to learn it and master it.

I will personally play brawl. Hopefully there will be another barrier to separate skill, because then you'll actually have to practice to be good. That's what differentiates competitive to casual.

 

[Zodiac]

The lack of advanced techniques seems to be a concern on everyone’s mind right now. I want to put in my input on the matter to show how it isn’t as bad as most think it is and possibly end to the commotion (not possible I know).

Let me start by saying competitiveness is not defined by speed. Melee may have been played at incredible speeds, but that didn’t necessarily define a higher level of play. The only thing that advanced techniques did was create a barrier between those who practiced using these techniques and those who didn’t. In reality it just created two types of game-play that rarely coincided. I believe that the true definition of competitiveness is shown when two players who are evenly skilled in the category of advanced techniques played against each other (this includes noobs and pros).

It has much defanition by speed, Silent Spectre, Zhu and Mew2King are players that come right off the top of my head when dealing with speed. if they were slower than they are they would still be extremley respected and talented players. however many of the mind games fast players in general use (Myself included) would not be applicable in brawl due to lack of l-cancleing and the overall floatyness of the game. While I disagree with your opinion that the game dosnt have defination by speed. I do agree that it wont affect pros from melee speed a year down the road.

By removing the advanced techniques, the creators of Brawl have also removed this barrier. All players are on the same level now. What does this mean? A player’s ability will not be defined by how fast his fingers move from X to L and diagonal down to down B back to X and so on.

This barrier, I have often thought about how much it keeps people from even trying to play this game well. My friend who had palyed melee with me for years, when I learned advanced techniqes and strived to improve my gameplay to that of the pros, he didnt. He thought it was to complicated and waisted to much of his time. Thats the barrier were talking about here. replace melee with brawl and that barrier is gone, he never would have slacked and let his polished gameplay without advanced tech's drop to the point where I could beat him easily if he hadnt been so intimidated by those scary Advanced techniqes. Because that barrier the melee players that could have been great with advaned techs but were to intimidated by learning them can now take only half a year instead of a year to become proficent at the game. the barrier has been greatly lessened.

Yes it will,there will always be a player who is faster. remember, this game still runs at 60 Frames Per Second and there will be player that strive to acheive framer perfect gameplay (Mew2King is a perfect example of Frame perfect Gameplay) Although it will be slower than melee players mindgames will still have dependacy on speed,it simply wont be as fast.

To give an example, what separates Ken, PC, M2K and who ever else from the rest of the population of pros? I’m sure that most of the pros and most of you who are reading this can wavedash, l-cancel, and all that other good stuff just as well as those guys. What set them apart is their mind games, timing (not only when to press what, but when to do what as well), and prediction.

no they cant, M2K in paticular, his tech game is so off the wall frame accurate that his speed alone could defeat players can use advanced techs well. There was so many varying levles of melee that unless you were at the top like the palyers you mentioned its not possible to list all of them or even know them, I would even dare the top players to list them I doubt they could, (Unless they were Isai and Ken, they are certainly the most qaulified the list all of the levles) a barrier of that magnitude will still be very much in full affect. the speed is a bit slower, they cant go as fast as they used to, but neither can anyone else.

Now due to all the advanced techniques being out, basically players lose “total character control.” This may be true but it does not mean that the characters are not controllable. Losing total control is something both sides will face, and keep matches at an even level. Not being able to wavedash or l-cancel will cause the game to be played at a slower pace. This does not take away from its competitiveness.

I've already said this, slower speeds yes, but a tech player will still be able to **** a player thats even revered as fast.

Pros will still be pros and will not lose to people who just pick up the game to play for fun. The competitive scene will still be the same but tournaments may have more entrants since the barrier has been broken.

Yay we agree

Due to the lack of advanced techniques, Brawl will be based on player talent and intelligence instead of speed.
Here is a brief list of traits I believe will lead to wins in Brawl:
• Player talent and intelligence instead of finger speed
• Ability to learn opponent’s patterns instantly
• Good timing of attacks so misses are rare
• Prediction to a whole new extent
• Playing around character weaknesses instead of through them

Basically, play smarter instead of faster.

player talent and intelligence always played into it. finger speed will still be a factor
basic smash knowledge
Again basic smash knowledge
The last of them are still things that were applied in melee

Personal note:

I want to say that I do not use any advanced techniques in melee. Before the flaming and the various “you fail” pictures begin to pop up, let me add that I have nothing against players who do use them. I actually like playing against those who do use advanced techniques rather than those who don’t. And yes, I’m sure most of you will destroy me in melee, but I have won against many tournament goers who are quite “techy.”

Thats because they tried to hard to use advanced techs and wow the "noobs" had they used mindgames flowing with the techs they would have done much better. and no offense but with being an advanced tech user, and understanding a fairly deep levle of this game, you cant make a valid argument.

So this is my view on Brawl and the changes from melee and how it will affect the competitive scene. What do you think?


-- Edit --
I want to know why all the pros are so against removal of advanced techniques. It just means all games will be closer. As sakurai said, a noob should be able to kill a pro at least once in 10 games. Which means more people to play / beat.

Games will be closer but the games overall depth will dissapear. its very unfortunate that this happened. But its not going to kill the competetive scene, its only going to help it.

EDIT IMPORTANT: I am freakin sick of seeing every pro match, fox,marth or falco(Almost ALWAYS!) on dreamland,battlefield or final destination, it pisses me off that at the pro levle this game can only be seriously played with the uper echilion of the teir list! Brawl will balance that out no? thats one thing I am very glad for. Variety will finally be a aprt of the competetive scene.

PAY ATTENTION EVERYONE THAT THINKS WAVEDASHING IS A GLITCH: Wavedashing is a reult of the physics program, A glitch is when something happens outside of the parameters ofthe game and can very well cause it to crash ie. the black hole glitch. Wavedashing is as much part of the game as l-cancling end of story.

 

[ArcNatural]

EDIT IMPORTANT: I am freakin sick of seeing every pro match, fox,marth or falco(Almost ALWAYS!) on dreamland,battlefield or final destination, it pisses me off that at the pro levle this game can only be seriously played with the uper echilion of the teir list! Brawl will balance that out no? thats one thing I am very glad for. Variety will finally be a aprt of the competetive scene.

This is where I think you will be wrong. It's shouldn't be the top tier's fault that they were the best characters. The were fast, could decently combo and in general had a lot more freedom with the moves they could use. What Brawl should have done, is brought all the other characters up to that level, rather than pull the top tier characters down.

Having played Brawl, So much of the original depth of the Super Smash series is gone. I had hoped that the airdodge animation would be short enough to enable you to mindgame opponents with it (such as say sh airdodging behind the opponent and backair if they thought you would try to aerial them and grab you), but it is actually quite long and if done while coming down in the air you normally will hit the ground first before being able to jump. And the new FD (probably easy enough to avoid once you get used to it) has a horrible edge. You can't ride the wall because you will get caught underneath the stage. So it's like getting battlefielded in Brawl.

Marth is still incredible (everyone with fast reaction times will play him) his aerials still have great range and come out incredibly fast and have little lag. So with many characters you can't even approach him that well, especially if he is in the air. Early predictions show this game has more unbalance than Melee does. Hopefully new tactics will be found out to fix this. But with a melee oriented game style it looks like only 2-3 characters are even viable competitively.

 

[Lavos]

How is it that so many people on this board just don't get it? It boggles the mind...

So, now that all the tech skill is gone, player smarts will determine matches now? With this massive drop in speed, the mindgames are now going to win matches? I don't think you really understand how this game works at higher levels. Finger speed and brainpower are directly related. The mindgames in this game are HINGED on advanced techniques. ATs create options! Options create mindgames! Mindgames win matches!

But ATs are mostly gone now. The ways a character can move and attack are severely limited. L canceling, wavedashing, dashdancing, wavelanding, DJC, they all added huge numbers of options for every character in the game. The mindgames in Brawl are going to be severely simplified. It's like going from Chess to Checkers. Sure, checkers is easier to understand and play, but the game is ridiculously limited. If everyone is good at a game, that game probably isn't good.

The point is, Mindgames were fantastic in Melee, but tech skill was also a factor. In Brawl, mindgames will be severely gimped without ATs to augment them.

 

[Zodiac]

This is where I think you will be wrong. It's shouldn't be the top tier's fault that they were the best characters. The were fast, could decently combo and in general had a lot more freedom with the moves they could use. What Brawl should have done, is brought all the other characters up to that level, rather than pull the top tier characters down.

It IS the top tier's fault, how do you think they got to top tier? their good loks? no! They were so good that they , in the right(Or wrong heh heh) hands could rule melee's roster with advanced techs. Decently combo? I'd say Marth and Falco were MADE to combo, sheik, not so much but fox and peach are right under marth and falco for comboedge. I used to be a firm believer that top tier was only top because no one bothered to uncover the rest of the roster amazing potentiol... BULLS***! Top tier is top because their just that Dang good.

 

[GameAngel64]

You will never understand why a pro would complain? The amount of time they practiced to learn those things are all insignificant in the sequel and all they have left is mindgames. The barrier is gone, you are right, but so is the effort.

And this is why I'm glad I never went overboard trying to master a game like this; to each their own, but it is the nature of video games to be fleeting. If you want to master a game, realize what in fact your mastery will get you. Maybe you will have your moment of success and fame, and if you go in with your eyes open, that can be a great thing! But if you expect it to be your bread and butter in the long term, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Skills gained in video game playing are not often transferable. I don't think it's very sage to dream that skills garnered in one game will automatically be applicable in another.

 

[billywill]

i agree 100%

 

[NES n00b]

This topic just shows more and more that people do not get what ATs are used for and what makes a game deep. Thankfully, Brawl has potential and we didn't have the OP design the game. At least everyone and their grandmother will easily beat him while he still thinks that them quick fingers are winning the matches when people are using new ATs or look really fast instead of his great intellect.

 

[Dark Sonic]

And this is why I'm glad I never went overboard trying to master a game like this; to each their own, but it is the nature of video games to be fleeting. If you want to master a game, realize what in fact your mastery will get you. Maybe you will have your moment of success and fame, and if you go in with your eyes open, that can be a great thing! But if you expect it to be your bread and butter in the long term, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Skills gained in video game playing are not often transferable. I don't think it's very sage to dream that skills garnered in one game will automatically be applicable in another.

True, but it is the nature of a fighting game and its sequels to ignore that sentiment. Most of the time when a fighting game has a sequel old techniques are kept and new ones are added. In most fighting games, skill does transfer over.

And I agree whole heartedly with Lavos. You guys need to realize that the competative level itself has evolved. When advance techniques were being descovered, only the pros and a few others knew about them. Now every single competative gamer, and a fair share of casuals, knows about advance techs. The majority of competative gamers have moved past just performing them and are actually utalizing them in those mindgames you speak so highly of. We don't just rush at each other with our tech skill, we use our techskill as a means to make more complex strategies than we could've made otherwise.

Taking away techskill does not put an emphasis on mindgames, because the two cannot exist without each other. Tech skill is defined as the ability to control your character. Mindgames is applying that control to trick your opponent. By removing advance techs, you are removing advanced control, which in turn removes "advanced mingames."

 

[Krell]

I absolutely agree with OP. The Brawl competative scene is going to be far better than Melee's. Hell, I was at a tournament for Brawl last night (my first time playing the game, I got into the semifinals with Lucario) and I must say, it seemed to be far more about mind games and logic than Melee.

 

[NES n00b]

I absolutely agree with OP. The Brawl competative scene is going to be far better than Melee's. Hell, I was at a tournament for Brawl last night (my first time playing the game, I got into the semifinals with Lucario) and I must say, it seemed to be far more about mind games and logic than Melee.

Says the one who thinks that glitches automatically make me people win. Aka the garbage Melee player. lawlz

 

[shortwanabelaker]

alrite guys.. heres the thing

i have NOTHING against advanced techniques, its not like i cant use them. if i sit down and practice a little i could probably pull of waveshining and all that other good stuff but i just dont (im pretty close to being able to tho).

I really didnt mean to make this a pro vs. noob thread.

What im trying to say is that taking out advanced techniques will allow all players to have a level playing field (like FD.. lol, jk) there will not be certain button combinations that will put one above another (like mortal combal special combos.. but to a much much much less extent).

im sure the pros who have been practicing will be a little disappointed that these learned skills will be useless, but that doesnt necessairly bring down their overall playing skill.

for the most part, pros will still be pros but the range might expand.

If calling me ignorant or saying i suck at melee makes u feel better than go ahead.

brawl will still be a very competitive game, fun to play, and have a broader player appeal

 

[Requiem]

I'm not an experienced player and so welcome these changes.

I think this is the first time someone of the new folks didnt post something that made me hate them, good game there mate.

 

[veil222]

As far as the teirs discussion is going... teirs are RELATIVE. Top teir wasn't brought down, the physics were changed. The only nerfs handed out were things that were needed. Peach's dsmash was so obviously broken most players joked about it openly. It's really well known that pillaring can be **** overpowered because of fox/falco's dairs getting 0 lag and shine being instant. Marth... good god, where to start.

It doesn't matter if top teirs deserve to be top teir or not, if they are so far above the rest of the cast as they were in melee, it makes for an unbalanced game. For most people maining falco, sheik, or marth, was enough to satisfy them in melee, but I got pissed that I coulden't main mewtwo or bowser without having to practice 5 times more than anyone else playing. That's not the game I want in brawl.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yes, but that broader appeal your talking about is people who previously didn't play competatively because they simply didn't want to put in the 4-5 hours (in total, including refreshing yourself every now and then) of practice to do so.

And advance techs are not an auto win button. That's not the point of advance techs. The point of advance techs is to give you more options to work with. It's like the ability for knights to go over pieces in chess, or trading a pawn for a better piece. It just adds another level of strategy, which apparently casual players couldn't handle. They allow your character to move faster and more fluidly, but that doesn't automatically make you better. What made you better was knowing what to do with this newfound speed and dexterity. If that speed and dexterity was never there, you would've never been able to pull off some of the crazy mindgames like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UbQ-gpOMB0

Notice the description of mindgames in that vid. "An application of technical skill mixed with a prediction of how your opponent will react."

Mindgames=applied tech skill + prediction.
Now what happens to mindgames if you have less applicable tech skill?

 

[Erimir]

This is where I think you will be wrong. It's shouldn't be the top tier's fault that they were the best characters. The were fast, could decently combo and in general had a lot more freedom with the moves they could use. What Brawl should have done, is brought all the other characters up to that level, rather than pull the top tier characters down.

This is just nonsensical, to me.

What would it mean for all the characters to be brought up to the level of the top tier? Wouldn't that just mean that everyone was powerful, could combo, etc.? Wouldn't that mean KOs at lower percentages? They obviously wanted to make it so you had to be at a higher percentage to die. If they level the playing field, making all the characters stronger or weaker just has the effect of changing what percentage people die at and such.

What you're complaining about is pacing and such, not the top tier being nerfed. If every character was like the top tier in Melee, probably a lot of people would be complaining that Brawl was too fast.

Early predictions show this game has more unbalance than Melee does. Hopefully new tactics will be found out to fix this. But with a melee oriented game style it looks like only 2-3 characters are even viable competitively.

People can't possibly have that great an understanding of the new characters, and many of the veterans have subtle changes that need to be discovered and some of them because of the changes in their moves (which ones are the strongest and such) may require significant changes to their strategies.

In one of the videos I saw, Marth did pwn his opponent. Who was using Lucas. What does that tell us? Well, probably more Marth skills transfer over to Brawl than Ness skills transfer to Lucas. You can't say that it was necessarily Marth being broken rather than the opponent simply not having a clue about the best way to use Lucas.

You're just overreacting - people don't have enough information to make judgments yet about tiers.

 

[Ryuker]

None of the pro's care about the time they lost learning this game. We care about a loss in depth. These so called mortal combat style combo's your talking about were non existant in melee. Really the only important stuff that had to be tweaked was chain throwing and even that is dicussable. Sure change is awesome I highly encourage it. But I want change to turn into something good and right now it doesn't seem to add something better. Thats all I can say for now until I play this game but impressions I get from pro's in europe don't increase the appeal to be honest. Your saying advanced techniques gone even's the playing field. I say it increases it cause now it will become even more apparent how dumb people really play.

 

[Requiem]

oh and for the people saying l-cancelling is gone, it isnt, remember? L cancelling stands for lag cancel, not cancelling the lag by pressing L.
Fastfall then atack to L-cancel, if im not mistaken