No Depth? (Oh please...)

[Mama]

Not quite Limey. You say that playing with Adv. Techs takes less skill but playing using Advanced Techs is skill. That's why they're advanced - they require skill. You have to draw a line in what counts as advanced as well.

And Mama, yes I know that lag isn't the only thing that seperates characters, but it affects everything else, in a way. Certain combos might not be possible with or without lag and you can't "mindgame" effeciently if you're floundering about on the floor after a move.

So imho, lag is an important character aspect.

True, however learning what moves slide or how not to slide (I'm assuming thats what you mean by floundering about) after an aerial is bound to be an integral part of the fighting we'll see in Brawl. As of now certain combos may seem like they'd be less effective with lag differences, but I'm sure it wont be too hard to adapt a new strategy using the other game mechanics in Brawl. For example, say Sonic's bair's momentum causes him to slide a little after landing. You can combo the bair by bascially using your trajectory to tech chase. Just a thought.

Also mind gaming can consist of anything you do that will cause your opponent discomfort/confusion/sense of familiarity. If I (using Sonic) start double jumping and then jump off the stage I just did a (very stupid) mind game. The other guy will be like wth. If I start jumping again and then jump off the stage only to up-b recover and then down B fake out the down B and then down b again and hit my opponent he just got mind gamed. Thats a silly example but you get what I'm saying xD.

ts 4:30 am wow. I need to hit the sack. I'll be back a postin' tomorrow but I think I have a tournament to go to.

 

[Limey]

Not quite Limey. You say that playing with Adv. Techs takes less skill but playing using Advanced Techs is skill. That's why they're advanced - they require skill. You have to draw a line in what counts as advanced as well.

And Mama, yes I know that lag isn't the only thing that seperates characters, but it affects everything else, in a way. Certain combos might not be possible with or without lag and you can't "mindgame" effeciently if you're floundering about on the floor after a move.

So imho, lag is an important character aspect.

Sorry, i didn't mean that it takes less skill to play with AT's, i just meant that because once you've mastered them it makes your playstyle a lot more fluid and effectively makes it easier for you to win, technically wouldn't it make it harder to win without using any AT's (that's a bit extreme, even i use fastfall and short hop when i play on my own, but you know what i mean) and therefore someone who won without using AT's at all would almost be more skilled than someone who did?

I'm not trying to cause arguments or anything here, it's just something that makes sense in my head, and i'm wondering if it makes sense to other people.

The best literal example i can think of is this:

Smash = Acoustic guitar
Winning a match = Playing a difficult chord
Wavedash = that thing guitarist clip across a certain fret to bar the entire thing.

With that in account, imagine that there's two guitarists, both trying to play a REALLY difficult chord. One of them uses that fret bar thing, and he uses it effectively, and he plays the chord because he knows how to use this advanced gutiar technique.

The other guitarist also knows how to use the fret bar thing, but he chooses not to, and after a lot of practice, can play the REALLY difficult chord without using it. I know in reality that's impossible, because he'd have to stretch his fingers to an insane distance, but for the purpose of this example, let's just say he can.

Doesn't that make the second guitarist better?

I know it's not a perfect example, but hopefully it gets what i'm thinking in my head across.

And no Mama, not a hint of rudeness in your response!

 

[Duality]

I hope there aren't too many advanced techs in Brawl. It's going to make Wi Fi less fun for the casual, non hardcore players and there's no mic to yell at people with.

It'll be like Mario Kart DS with snakers.

 

[Dr Mario Kart]

Even simple games can have competitive depth. The extra layers of complexity on top arent actually necessary. Like the street fighter series for example. The depth and competition comes from the players.

Most of the advance techs in fighting games have severe restrictions on them, there is nothing near as universal as a L-cancel. Soul Calibur does have 2G, but thats broke as hell.

Normally only a small subset of moves have cancels on them, and even a smaller subset of moves that it can be canceled into (Soul Calibur for example). Or in the case of Guilty Gear, Roman Cancels are restricted by a gauge and my understanding of it is that you need have landed a hit.

SC and Tekken both have crouch dashing for a few characters.

 

[t!MmY]

Even without all the advanced techs, Brawl is very fun to play, appears very balanced, and we're still learning new stuff every day.

Besides, it's not how difficult a game is that makes it competitive. At high levels of play technical skill is very important for Melee, but knowledge of the game is what tips the scales.

 

[Smo]

Fair play Limey that's a good example. The bar thingy is called a capo .
Yes, I do see where you're coming from. I think that the two guitarists/smashers may have skills in different areas. The AT player may have resourcefulness, but the non-techer may have better understanding.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Wow, this thread came from a host of yes-men to actual meaningful discussion. Excellent =D . I have a tournament to attend in... 1 hour... so I hope you'll accept my raincheque (yes, rainCHEQUE) and I'll reply when I get home. I'm excited.

 

[Mama]

Sorry, i didn't mean that it takes less skill to play with AT's, i just meant that because once you've mastered them it makes your playstyle a lot more fluid and effectively makes it easier for you to win, technically wouldn't it make it harder to win without using any AT's (that's a bit extreme, even i use fastfall and short hop when i play on my own, but you know what i mean) and therefore someone who won without using AT's at all would almost be more skilled than someone who did?

I'm not trying to cause arguments or anything here, it's just something that makes sense in my head, and i'm wondering if it makes sense to other people.

The best literal example i can think of is this:

Smash = Acoustic guitar
Winning a match = Playing a difficult chord
Wavedash = that thing guitarist clip across a certain fret to bar the entire thing.

With that in account, imagine that there's two guitarists, both trying to play a REALLY difficult chord. One of them uses that fret bar thing, and he uses it effectively, and he plays the chord because he knows how to use this advanced gutiar technique.

The other guitarist also knows how to use the fret bar thing, but he chooses not to, and after a lot of practice, can play the REALLY difficult chord without using it. I know in reality that's impossible, because he'd have to stretch his fingers to an insane distance, but for the purpose of this example, let's just say he can.

Doesn't that make the second guitarist better?

I know it's not a perfect example, but hopefully it gets what i'm thinking in my head across.

And no Mama, not a hint of rudeness in your response!

Well the thing is its simply not possible to win without some of the more vital advanced techniques. The only thing that can really be ditched is wave dashing (imo) and still stay at the same level. And the advance techniques are more similar to top spins and back spins in tennis. As well as slices and the other things. It wouldn't take more skill to win without these techniques but mastering the techniques requires skill in itself.

But I understand what you're trying to say.

I hope there aren't too many advanced techs in Brawl. It's going to make Wi Fi less fun for the casual, non hardcore players and there's no mic to yell at people with.

It'll be like Mario Kart DS with snakers.

Well I think it might be different for some people. When a person gets really good at the game they're going to think they've reached the end of the line skill wise and not understand how anything can be at a higher level. Playing someone who plays at the competitive level may actually be an eye opener.

When I was a casual player I thought that way until I saw the advanced how to play videos. I realized how little I knew about the game lol. It may be the same for a lot of casuals. Instead of "Wow you cheater" it could instead be "Wow what have I been doing that guy was amazing". Leading to research of how to play at competitive levels.

Also its not that the advanced players are simply resourceful but there are things that they understand better than others.

EDIT : Check out this article. Its really good and can give you some insight to the play to win mentality. I just found out there were more so I'm going to go check it out.

 

[Mama]

Because it needed to be done ...

 

[NES n00b]

LOL, shameless bump, but yeah, this thread is good so why not I guess. =D

 

[Mama]

LOL, shameless bump, but yeah, this thread is good so why not I guess. =D

Yea that and the fact that we're getting pummeled by spam/whiny/repeat threads. I'll bump it again tomorrow if need be then let it sink into the abyss afterward lol. Maybe I'll make another thread (this was my first one) depending on the situation of the boards.

 

[Dead Sexy Vocab]

Good read... I have a friend who does use Melee as his measuring stick.