No Depth? (Oh please...)

[0rion]

Are we forgetting that the wavedash made characters playable such as Ice Climbers and Luigi

All I'm sayin is that people, like yourself included since u chose to like pick my post apart, have NO **** DUMB REASON TO FREAKIN COMPLAIN BOUT ONE TECH MOVE TAKEN OFF! It's so irritating! Yes! People who complain bout this wavedashing thing over and over and over and over again aren't pros, they FAIL!

 

[Noypi_GjD]

All I'm sayin is that people, like yourself included since u chose to like pick my post apart, have NO **** DUMB REASON TO FREAKIN COMPLAIN BOUT ONE TECH MOVE TAKEN OFF! It's so irritating! Yes! People who complain bout this wavedashing thing over and over and over and over again aren't pros, they FAIL!

I really don't care too much about wavedashing being gone, only thing it helped me with are a few smash positioning and a bit more badassness to my dash dance (Puff player) I'm not complaining as you claim I am, a bit disappointed but not complaining. "Fail" has no definition to me, overused to the point of meaning nothing but "owned" in this forum, rather I would say that you people keep beating on the dead horse, which is wavedashing, give it up who cares. Pros aren't going to stop winning because they don't have the wavedash, and mainly scrubs are the people who think they have a chance now...lol.

Ofcourse people have the right to be pissed off that something that was beneficial their winnings is removed, they worked hard for it and now its just gone, at times I agree. If they removed another cheap common technique that newbies use such as the ability to shield grab, than I think more people would be pissed off. And I am lead to believe that people are so overwhelmingly joyful that wavedash is gone is because it takes away something that didn't give them an advantage to a matchup, because they are unable to do it themselves.

And I have to nitpick on paragraphs, the way the information and points of a paragraph is presented is important in an argument.

 

[BentoBox]

Sticky this.

 

[LemonManX]

*sigh*

How many more of these sort of threads must the Brawl section be subjected to?

 

[BentoBox]

Enough to make Dylan stop crying.



That's right, it'll never end.

 

[0rion]

I really don't care too much about wavedashing being gone, only thing it helped me with are a few smash positioning and a bit more badassness to my dash dance (Puff player) I'm not complaining as you claim I am, a bit disappointed but not complaining. "Fail" has no definition to me, overused to the point of meaning nothing but "owned" in this forum, rather I would say that you people keep beating on the dead horse, which is wavedashing, give it up who cares. Pros aren't going to stop winning because they don't have the wavedash, and mainly scrubs are the people who think they have a chance now...lol.

Ofcourse people have the right to be pissed off that something that was beneficial their winnings is removed, they worked hard for it and now its just gone, at times I agree. If they removed another cheap common technique that newbies use such as the ability to shield grab, than I think more people would be pissed off. And I am lead to believe that people are so overwhelmingly joyful that wavedash is gone is because it takes away something that didn't give them an advantage to a matchup, because they are unable to do it themselves.

And I have to nitpick on paragraphs, the way the information and points of a paragraph is presented is important in an argument.

My life is with the UFC clock 24/7. Of course I'm not gonna be a die hard Smash fan that dedicates his life to playing and mastering all there is to know about Brawl/ Melee so I can stand a chance against the big time pros.

But if that's you then more power to ya.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

My life is with the UFC clock 24/7. Of course I'm not gonna be a die hard Smash fan that dedicates his life to playing and mastering all there is to know about Brawl/ Melee so I can stand a chance against the big time pros.

But if that's you then more power to ya.

Smash is one of my hobbies, why do you keep assuming things about me.

 

[0rion]

Smash is one of my hobbies, why do you keep assuming things about me.

Dunno.....don't know why I do this. It's just I sense a an aura of "I'm a pro and I'm better than you in Brawl before it's even it hits store shelves" kind of mentality comin from u. Sorry, but ya boy doesn't like to see his posts be takin apart unless I'm bein praised.

Smashin is a hobby of mine too. Nothin more, nothin less.

 

[Mama]

I really don't care too much about wavedashing being gone, only thing it helped me with are a few smash positioning and a bit more badassness to my dash dance (Puff player) I'm not complaining as you claim I am, a bit disappointed but not complaining. "Fail" has no definition to me, overused to the point of meaning nothing but "owned" in this forum, rather I would say that you people keep beating on the dead horse, which is wavedashing, give it up who cares. Pros aren't going to stop winning because they don't have the wavedash, and mainly scrubs are the people who think they have a chance now...lol.

Ofcourse people have the right to be pissed off that something that was beneficial their winnings is removed, they worked hard for it and now its just gone, at times I agree. If they removed another cheap common technique that newbies use such as the ability to shield grab, than I think more people would be pissed off. And I am lead to believe that people are so overwhelmingly joyful that wavedash is gone is because it takes away something that didn't give them an advantage to a matchup, because they are unable to do it themselves.

And I have to nitpick on paragraphs, the way the information and points of a paragraph is presented is important in an argument.

Well as in my original post I'm not saying people have no right to be upset over the removal of wave dashing. All I'm saying is that wave dashing benefited us in Melee. We haven't played Brawl yet therefore we don't even know if the Ice Climbers would need it or if Luigi would be faster with it. Brawl is going to have a different play style that you can be sure of. You as well as everyone else are going to adapt to Brawl's rules and play Brawl's way and discover Brawls advanced techniques.

For the most part, Wave Dashing already appears to be obsolete. In the two days people have had to experience Brawl new things have been discovered. Trip-Canceling (thats what I'm going to call it) and Dash Braking. Both can serve to better your spacing. Dash Braking looks like it'll be a marvelous mind game trick.

PS: This thread was not about wave dashing. If you read the first post you'd get my point. This thread was mainly in response to Mew2King's petition for wave dash thread and the people in it who agreed without stopping to think.

EDIT : And yes I agree the scrubs thinking that no wave dash = even ground are going to get a rude awakening when they step into the ring with me. I'll be certain to go hard on as many people I can. hopefully I can befriend them first and then taunt them with "wheres your wave dash complaints now".

Also one of the things I just thought about. There are people who got aboard the advanced play wagon somewhat late that may be turned into scrubs if people keep posting that anti wave dash pish posh. Hopefully they'll see this thread. And if any of you do find it then I want you to stay updated on the advanced techniques we discover in Brawl. Stay ahead of the game and don't fall behind. Tell your friends about them. Help the competitive audience grow. Smash may be a hobby for some now but why not expand your hobby? Practicing is very fun and playing with friends on the advanced level is very very fun.

 

[Dan-E]

Its ridiculous how many of the so called pro Smashers are crying over the loss of something like wave dashing and the reduced lag (or automatic L-canceling if you don't like making any sense lol). In a sense you're judging the depth of a lake by looking at the surface and not even bothering to wait and see for yourself.

Melee was a deep fighter. But that depth was discovered/created by the players. Its been around for a long time. If you were to somehow remove wave dashing from Melee I'd be upset regardless of how important it was to me. (really just used it for spacing and mind games) because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. Same as the character mechanics. If they made some fast fallers "floatier" then I'd be upset because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. If the changed directional air dodging up ....well I think you get the point now.

So many people are stuck using Melee as a measuring stick. Judging everything off of Melee standards and scared of the possible loss of Melee's depth. But they're forgetting that this is not Melee. This is Brawl. Nobody has touched the finished project. We have only seen a demo of the game. When we get our hands on the real thing then and only then will we be able to see how deep Brawl will be. It is not Melee. What people think added all the depth to Melee (only thing really gone is wave dashing/directional air dodgin so I really don't get this loss of depth argument) isn't going to be important in Brawl.

So stop acting like you know for a fact that Smash is losing its depth when all you have to go on is Melee's version of it. By claiming so you only show how close minded you are. Unwilling to accept the way things are. That sounds awfully similar to a scrub if you ask me.

Does the lack of an advanced technique mean that the scrubs should rejoice and that pros should lament? No it certainly does not. The real pros will simply discover new advanced techniques and new things that add depth to Brawl. The scrubs will probably be just as upset as they are over wave dashing in Melee and cause some things to be over rated but if they choose not to follow the meta game then they'll remain scrubs.

EDIT : And stop thinking that Brawl can't be competitive. Anything with a vs mode can be competitive and where there is competition there will be people who take it to another level and set the pace for the rest of us.

The removal of not one, not two, but THREE different skillful techniques signifies that this game was developed with the purpose of dumbing the game down.

Of course there might be stuff that the smash community might discover that will make the game competitive again, but all the evidence we have so far points to Sakurai trying his ****ed hardest to make it not competitive. That's just depressing.

Sakurai is intentionally slowing down the game (removing Lcanceling, making characters floatier, auto edge snapping) so as to make it more accessible to noobs thus closing the gap between the pros and the noobs. Name one competitive game where there isn't a huge gap between pros and noobs. You can't. If this game becomes accessible to everyone at the highest level of technical skill then it loses its competitiveness.

Anything with a vs mode can be competitive... true... but not at a high level. Which is what we're worried about.

Edit - this Dash Braking is new to me... can you elaborate?

 

[0rion]

Well as in my original post I'm not saying people have no right to be upset over the removal of wave dashing. All I'm saying is that wave dashing benefited us in Melee. We haven't played Brawl yet therefore we don't even know if the Ice Climbers would need it or if Luigi would be faster with it. Brawl is going to have a different play style that you can be sure of. You as well as everyone else are going to adapt to Brawl's rules and play Brawl's way and discover Brawls advanced techniques.

For the most part, Wave Dashing already appears to be obsolete. In the two days people have had to experience Brawl new things have been discovered. Trip-Canceling (thats what I'm going to call it) and Dash Braking. Both can serve to better your spacing. Dash Braking looks like it'll be a marvelous mind game trick.

PS: This thread was not about wave dashing. If you read the first post you'd get my point. This thread was mainly in response to Mew2King's petition for wave dash thread and the people in it who agreed without stopping to think.

Geez, make this guy an administator. Come on people, make it happen, make it happen!! Chop Chop!

Mama is the man!! ROFL!

 

[Noypi_GjD]

Well than Mama, I agree with where you are coming from.

[Dunno.....don't know why I do this. It's just I sense a an aura of "I'm a pro and I'm better than you in Brawl before it's even it hits store shelves" kind of mentality comin from u. Sorry, but ya boy doesn't like to see his posts be takin apart unless I'm bein praised.]
Yeah, its only human to be offended when being criticized.

Well I hope we are in good terms now, Brawl is looking good, I'm just tired of all the scrubs who glorify washdashing like it automatically makes you good -.-;;

[Anything with a vs mode can be competitive... true... but not at a high level. Which is what we're worried about.]
Roffle at all my friends who claim that DBZ games have more depth than Melee and Tekken >.>

 

[0rion]

Well than Mama, I agree with where you are coming from.

[Dunno.....don't know why I do this. It's just I sense a an aura of "I'm a pro and I'm better than you in Brawl before it's even it hits store shelves" kind of mentality comin from u. Sorry, but ya boy doesn't like to see his posts be takin apart unless I'm bein praised.]
Yeah, its only human to be offended when being criticized.

Well I hope we are in good terms now, Brawl is looking good, I'm just tired of all the scrubs who glorify washdashing like it automatically makes you good -.-;;

[Anything with a vs mode can be competitive... true... but not at a high level. Which is what we're worried about.]
Roffle at all my friends who claim that DBZ games have more depth than Melee and Tekken >.>

Yeah we're cool cuz. And short hoppin + new Brawl stuff is the only stuff in my arsenal I'll need to pwn peeps! That is....*gulp* if my pride and joy Falco doesn't become "unbroken."

 

[Noypi_GjD]

Yeah we're cool cuz. And short hoppin + new Brawl stuff is the only stuff in my arsenal I'll need to pwn peeps! That is....*gulp* if my pride and joy Falco doesn't become "unbroken."

Falco needs his fast fall =D.... Falco falco falco... will you be in smash brawl T_T.

 

[Hiemie]

To be honest, Mama is impressing me a lot in this topic.

 

[0rion]

Falco needs his fast fall =D.... Falco falco falco... will you be in smash brawl T_T.

Dang......if Falco....if Falco is without his mojo or doesn't show up in Brawl at all then.....

Then I'm gunna be the one makin like 45 + complaining/petition threads that my boy Mr. Lombardi should be in Brawl!! I'm such a freakin hypocrite! Pisses me off!

 

[Mama]

The removal of not one, not two, but THREE different skillful techniques signifies that this game was developed with the purpose of dumbing the game down.

Of course there might be stuff that the smash community might discover that will make the game competitive again, but all the evidence we have so far points to Sakurai trying his ****ed hardest to make it not competitive. That's just depressing.

Sakurai is intentionally slowing down the game (removing Lcanceling, making characters floatier, auto edge snapping) so as to make it more accessible to noobs thus closing the gap between the pros and the noobs. Name one competitive game where there isn't a huge gap between pros and noobs. You can't. If this game becomes accessible to everyone at the highest level of technical skill then it loses its competitiveness.

Anything with a vs mode can be competitive... true... but not at a high level. Which is what we're worried about.

Edit - this Dash Braking is new to me... can you elaborate?

Theres a video where Mario runs toward Kirby stops on a **** dime (shocking almost) and F-smashes him. I think something like that would be beautiful for spacing and mind gaming.

I know exactly how you feel though. Removing things that we're used to from the game and hearing him say that he would make the game more accessible to everyone does sound terrible (the more accessible to everyone thing made me very sad when the Brawl site was first made before the change to update format.)

However over time I was able to think things through and came to the state of reason that I'm at right now. I stand but what I said in another thread. Air dodging was changed. Not Wave dashing. If air dodging was the same as it was before and they just changed the collision physics then I would definitely say that wave dashing was removed for that reason. However air dodging is simply influenced by momentum.-- Brawl is running on a different physics engine hence heavier characters, sliding after aerials and other things.--Because air dodging was changed wave dashing as we know it is no longer possible.

L-canceling is a different story though. Something that had been around since Smash64 and is not a glitch in any way. The lag on moves was reduced which (in a sense) means auto L-canceling. I think that it may have just been edited for the demo. If it is indeed made useless due to reduced lag after moves than that may just be Sakurai making certain things easier for people. I'm fine either way.

I don't know what the third thing is you're talking about though.

Lastly, I've no doubt that Brawl will be marvelous at a highly competitive level. We've seen them discover new things about the game already. Edge hugging sounds pretty nifty. Over time I'm sure there will be tons of things that we'll discover. Thats why I have no worries.

EDIT : thanks for your support guys ^^. I'm trying to do my part and help unify these boards post by post. I'm tired of the pointless bickering. If we could all post with clear heads then I think we can quell the fighting on the forums and dream about fighting in Brawl in peace. Through Smash we've all found our common ground.

 

[Dan-E]

Theres a video where Mario runs toward Kirby stops on a **** dime (shocking almost) and F-smashes him. I think something like that would be beautiful for spacing and mind gaming.

I know exactly how you feel though. Removing things that we're used to from the game and hearing him say that he would make the game more accessible to everyone does sound terrible (the more accessible to everyone thing made me very sad when the Brawl site was first made before the change to update format.)

However over time I was able to think things through and came to the state of reason that I'm at right now. I stand but what I said in another thread. Air dodging was changed. Not Wave dashing. If air dodging was the same as it was before and they just changed the collision physics then I would definitely say that wave dashing was removed for that reason. However air dodging is simply influenced by momentum.-- Brawl is running on a different physics engine hence heavier characters, sliding after aerials and other things.--Because air dodging was changed wave dashing as we know it is no longer possible.

L-canceling is a different story though. Something that had been around since Smash64 and is not a glitch in any way. The lag on moves was reduced which (in a sense) means auto L-canceling. I think that it may have just been edited for the demo. If it is indeed made useless due to reduced lag after moves than that may just be Sakurai making certain things easier for people. I'm fine either way.

I don't know what the third thing is you're talking about though.

Lastly, I've no doubt that Brawl will be marvelous at a highly competitive level. We've seen them discover new things about the game already. Edge hugging sounds pretty nifty. Over time I'm sure there will be tons of things that we'll discover. Thats why I have no worries.

EDIT : thanks for your support guys ^^. I'm trying to do my part and help unify these boards post by post. I'm tired of the pointless bickering. If we could all post with clear heads then I think we can quell the fighting on the forums and dream about fighting in Brawl in peace. Through Smash we've all found our common ground.

sounds like just crouching and then smashing to me... or is it something completely different?

anyways I guess I should have made it more clear in my previous post that I just feel that (and I hope to God that I am wrong) Brawl won't really have a technical skill gap between the Pros and noobs. everything seems so noob friendly now that... well you get my point.

edit - is edge hugging just the auto edge snapping?

edit2 - ledge sweetspotting was the third thing I was talking about

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Here's where the difference in opinion is. There were many people who wanted a "Melee 2.0". From what I've gathered, the majority of these people were those who already had good knowledge of the game, liked the metaphysics and playstyle, and were looking forward to a sort of update with new characters. The "pros" tend to share this opinion.

Of course this is a completely different game. It's a different designing team, is it not? But what bothers the aforementioned people is that a game which was already so well done is being succeeded by one which (at the very least appears to) lacks aspects which made the other one so enjoyable and re-playable.

We can only compare by what we've seen. I have no idea why people post things like "so what if lcancelling's gone". It is such an integral technique to the COMPETITIVE community. If one chooses to play casually with one's friends without lcancelling, so be it. But why limit the players who do? (Z) Cancelling was in the original game, in Melee, why in the world does it appear to be removed in brawl? Naturally some would find that unnerving... who is this game geared for? Those fans which have taken the time to know the previous games? Or for newer players who just want the thrill of being able to control a character they think is "cool"?

Brawl has expectations to fill, and if some people feel that (so far) it hasn't, then why trash-talk them for it? If you disagree, then that's fine! Wait until the game is officialy released and explored, and THEN say "stfu c i told you so hahakthxbai". Judging on what we've seen, the depth appears to be limited to me. Not that there won't be other techniques to make the game unique and all, but the fact the remains that Melee was absolutely amazing (perhaps by accident), and that a step downwards would be unbearable for some. Can the new programmers pull it off? So far not.

The original poster claims that the depth of Melee was discovered/created by the players. Granted. However, it is not mentioned that the game was designed such that this depthness could be explored. It is a prerequisite. You can find many new things to try to make the game seem "deep", but if the game devolves to a repetitive cycle of strategies where one player can consistently win by doing technique a) b) and c) , then perhaps the game isn't as deep as you think. It is illogical to try to say that the game will be deep because the players will make it so... you can try to make rock+paper+scizzors as deep as you want to (I've tried), but frankly, it's impossible. Therefore, the argument of "anything with a vs mode can be competitive" fails.

Another fault in the previous argument is that Melee is pretty much all we have to go on to decide whether Brawl is as deep or not. It sets the standard, it is of the same series, naturally it's going to be used as a measuring stick.

Consider the example of Charmander/Charmeleon/Charizard. If you had a Charmeleon, and it evolved into Charizard, A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT POKEMON. Note, "this [pokemon] is not brawl [the original pokemon]". So you've been hyped up about getting this new pokemon, training up and being excited, and then you get your new Charizard. What the fudge? IT SUCKS? YOU LOST TO A BULBASAUR? Oh wait, it's fine, forget regretting that it evolved, IT'S A WHOLE NEW POKEMON, WHY IN THE WORLD would you compare to your old Charmeleon who consistently kicked that mofo Gary's @ss? Surely you see why this "it's a different game" argument fails...

Also, I am not quite sure what makes people think they can decide who the 'REAL' pros are and who the 'fake?' pros are. Last I checked, pros were people who won lots of matches against just about everyone.

I hate to be the one to point out that many people enjoyed learning their "advanced techniques". The advanced techniques which are in Melee seem to work in keeping the game interesting and competitive. Naturally it can be regarded as a loss to have those removed. You say that there will be "new advanced techniques and things that add depth to brawl". By claiming this, you reveal 2 things:

1) You imply that currently, from what you've seen, there is not enough depth in brawl.
2) You are willing to base your argument on non-factual information. I've yet to see the proof that there will be "new advanced techniques". I have, however, seen things that are currently working to negate the possibility of high depth. Id Est, the removal of things that worked to retain originality in metagame.

I'm not trying to be controversial, but rather to express the other side of the argument, and perhaps offer light to what most posters here have not considered. The demo is all we have to go on, and I'm sure that most of these "complainers" and (fake?)pros have expressed the hope that the released version is changed to better suit the dedicated player.

 

[0rion]

^^^Goodness gracious good golly Ms Molly! That's like a whole lot of typing for somebody to read at 5:14 A.M. in the mornin fellas!

I think the moral of the story is that Brawl runs deep in depth in it's own way apart from Melee. And those who are too blind to see it aren't very sharp.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

I was a little less pacifist than that. But I suppose as long as you appease the Brawl optimists, that's what matters >.> .

I also implore that those sharing the opinion of the original post please read my whole post carefully before you start flaming me. =)

 

[Silpheed]

Just because I sequel lacks some of the"tactics" (glitches) a previous game had, doest make the game "suck".

No game is perfect, that means that people can, and will break the game, finding all kinds of new, game altering, useful glitches for you to rub one off to.

Sometimes you guys REALLY show your age. My suggestion is that you guys step back, and think things through, because this is more than a little depressing.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

I sense a pinch of personal attack, further augmented by a hint of a superiority complex.

I don't recall anyone (including myself) saying that the game "sucks". The issue at hand is the depth, given what we have. Sorry, actually, the real issue is to appease the brawl optimists who are unwilling to hear opposition.

 

[0rion]

Just because I sequel lacks some of the"tactics" (glitches) a previous game had, doest make the game "suck".

No game is perfect, that means that people can, and will break the game, finding all kinds of new, game altering, useful glitches for you to rub one off to.

Sometimes you guys REALLY show your age. My suggestion is that you guys step back, and think things through, because this is more than a little depressing.

Well somebody is catching on other than Mama!

That's what Sakurai is trying to make you see! He's challenging his Smash children to find new creative ways to own the Smash opposition. If you get this, then you win at life!

 

[Smo]

btw to whoever it was that asked, the Ink Drop is a way of cancelling your dash and being able to use certain moves out of it.

Anyway, I'll give my opinion.
Which is pretty much Mama's opinion.
I wanted Wavedashing to be in Brawl, I really did. I find it useful in my games, and also just plain cool. And sort of fun. More fun than just walking or whatever. Made navigating platforms great, edgehogging easier and spacing easier. L-cancelling was great because it gave me the edge against my friends. Few of them knew how to do it.

But I'm not so stuck up my own arse about them that I whine when they're gone. Honestly, I've lost so much respect for the likes of M2K. I used to look up to him as being a wise, skilled Smash player (although I never met him, being English). Now he just seems like a whiney ***. An elitist *******. There are so many pros that I do respect and am inspired by.

OK, M2K, WDing is not in Brawl. Brawl =/= Melee ffs. They're different games.
Can't remember who said it but when M2K was trying to petition...

Denial
Anger
Bargaining <== you are here
Depression
Acceptance

respect to that guy.

Some people need to let go, accept that WaveDashing is gone. I mean, let's take Ken... or as he's soon to be called... NEKromancer... I'm sure he'll adapt well. He's the King Of Smash. All these whiney pros keep saying
"Smash is all about adapting. A new tech comes out, you have to learn to counter that tech"
gues what? The removal of WDing means you might have to adapt to that! Yes, that's right, even the hallowed M2K will have to change for the sake of Brawl.

You think I'm not a bit annoyed? My favourite character has been super-nerfed and my other two characters (Doc and C. Falcon) haven't even been confirmed!


I'm speaking only about certain whiney pros here. Lot's of you guys are cool. Just guys who love to play Smash and love to take it to the next level.

But the rest of you are starting to piss me off.

Edit: firexemblemxpryde you have some good points. Everyone has their own ways to look at how Brawl is being accepted or otherwise. My post may seem rather whiney and like it hates people who are disappointed about certain aspects of Brawl.

In truth, I am disappointed about certain aspects of Brawl, but I'm not being an arse like some of the pros have been doing. Those who looks up to the pros will be influenced by them. A generation of WD junkies.

Basically, it's the immaturity of certain players witha lot of influence which annoys me. It's like some child who didn't get exactly what he wanted for xmas. Lots of people are expressing their annoyance at the removal of WDing - fair play to them.
Just some people are taking this expression to the next level and looking like fools.

 

[Silpheed]

I sense a pinch of personal attack, further augmented by a hint of a superiority complex.

I don't recall anyone (including myself) saying that the game "sucks". The issue at hand is the depth, given what we have. Sorry, actually, the real issue is to appease the brawl optimists who are unwilling to hear opposition.

Actually, I wasn't directing that at you personally. I didn't even read your post.

It's addressed to anyone who automatically feels Brawl is somehow less "advanced", or anything of the like, just because a GLITCH from the previous game was removed.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

I also implore that those sharing the opinion of the original post please read my whole post carefully before you start flaming me. =)

Now he just seems like a whiney ***. An elitist *******. There are so many pros that I do respect and am inspired by.

I'm speaking only about certain whiney pros here. Lot's of you guys are cool. Just guys who love to play Smash and love to take it to the next level.

But the rest of you are starting to piss me off.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=3094524&postcount=59
My goodness! This has been addressed. Read the post.

I didn't even read your post.

Precisely.

Although I appreciate the logic of your viewpoint.

just because a GLITCH from the previous game was removed.

There is overwhelming evidence that Lcancelling is not a glitch...

It's easy to appear to be winning a debate when generalizations are made, dear friends.

 

[Silpheed]

There is overwhelming evidence that Lcancelling is not a glitch...

It's easy to appear to be winning a debate when generalizations are made, dear friends.

I made 3 posts in this thread (counting this one). Show me the one where I said ANYTHING about L - Canceling.

 

[Mama]

sounds like just crouching and then smashing to me... or is it something completely different?

anyways I guess I should have made it more clear in my previous post that I just feel that (and I hope to God that I am wrong) Brawl won't really have a technical skill gap between the Pros and noobs. everything seems so noob friendly now that... well you get my point.

edit - is edge hugging just the auto edge snapping?

edit2 - ledge sweetspotting was the third thing I was talking about

It was different from crouch canceling in that Mario didn't crouch or even shift in animation. Since Brawl runs at a super smooth frame rate I'm sure that the crouch would be visible to some extent. This however seems completely different and much more versatile. Dash dance to trip-cancel or dash brake could be great with combos.

And I honestly think that the technical skill gap will be greater in Brawl if people keep that "glitch" mentality. We made Melee what it was. We'll make Brawl just as great if not greater. We'll just need to get our hands on it first.

And edge hugging is when you run off the edge and immediately move the stick toward the stage to grab it. It was discovered by Hugs hence the name.

Oh yea sweet spotting. Thats something that does indeed make it easier for scrubs to recover as well as pros. But the gap there is the edge hug which is faster than wave dashing back. Scrubs will still fall victim to edge hogging as well as the pros since the edge hug is so fast.

 

[Smo]

Sorry firexemblemxpryde, I know you addressed a lot of my points. You made your post in the time when I had started writing, replied to a few IMs and finished writing, so I didn't get to read your post while typing it. You raise valid points, and our opinions differ in some cases, but I respect them all the same.

I know there is an awful lot of generalising going on, but it's hard not to in situations like this. Everyone has their own opinions. The only logical thing to do is to group those with similar opinions. Whiney pros are not all completely alike in opinion and level of whinoscity, but when one writes about it, it becomes easier to put them in a bracket.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Silpheed, of course you wouldn't directly say that Lcancelling is a glitch, that's silly =D .

However, the bulk and topic of the thread is that what's been made clear about Brawl (which includes the lack of Lcancelling) may suggest that it is "advanced" or "not advanced".

By generalizing that it bothers you when people think "Brawl is somehow less "advanced", or anything of the like, just because a GLITCH from the previous game was removed" it is most fairly interpreted as including Lcancelling, no? It is one of the things that has been removed.

To now bring bias into my argument, I wouldn't weep over the loss of wavedash either, but Lcancelling is a different story. The OP indirectly mentions lcancelling as one of the things which isn't a factor in the depth of the Smash bros. series. As you are one who shares a similar view, my interpretation is that you were including L-cancelling in that bundle. Sorry if you feel mis-interpreted. Yay brawl?

Smo, I respect you greatly. Particularly with your usage of the word "whinoscity". I agree with your post completely. I just found it a tad unfair earlier because not both sides of the argument were being properly represented.

Cadit Quaestio.

Mama, can I expect a reply from you? Or should I go sleep!? =D

 

[Silpheed]

Silpheed, of course you wouldn't directly say that Lcancelling is a glitch, that's silly =D .

However, the bulk and topic of the thread is that what's been made clear about Brawl (which includes the lack of Lcancelling) may suggest that it is "advanced" or "not advanced".

By generalizing that it bothers you when people think "Brawl is somehow less "advanced", or anything of the like, just because a GLITCH from the previous game was removed" it is most fairly interpreted as including Lcancelling, no? It is one of the things that has been removed.

To now bring bias into my argument, I wouldn't weep over the loss of wavedash either, but Lcancelling is a different story. The OP indirectly mentions lcancelling as one of the things which isn't a factor in the depth of the Smash bros. series. As you are one who shares a similar view, my interpretation is that you were including L-cancelling in that bundle. Sorry if you feel mis-interpreted. Yay brawl?

I specifically mentioned the glitch in question, which is wave dashing.

 

[Smo]

I'll definitly admit that L-cancelling's loss is a blow. It was the main thing that seperates a beginner player from a more advanced player (that and Shield-grabbing). It sucks that L-cancelling is gone, but we have to adapt. There will be new techniques that give "us" (it sounds so elitist... i don't really want to use that word) the edge against less skilled players.

 

[Mama]

Here's where the difference in opinion is. There were many people who wanted a "Melee 2.0". From what I've gathered, the majority of these people were those who already had good knowledge of the game, liked the metaphysics and playstyle, and were looking forward to a sort of update with new characters. The "pros" tend to share this opinion.

Of course this is a completely different game. It's a different designing team, is it not? But what bothers the aforementioned people is that a game which was already so well done is being succeeded by one which (at the very least appears to) lacks aspects which made the other one so enjoyable and re-playable.

We can only compare by what we've seen. I have no idea why people post things like "so what if lcancelling's gone". It is such an integral technique to the COMPETITIVE community. If one chooses to play casually with one's friends without lcancelling, so be it. But why limit the players who do? (Z) Cancelling was in the original game, in Melee, why in the world does it appear to be removed in brawl? Naturally some would find that unnerving... who is this game geared for? Those fans which have taken the time to know the previous games? Or for newer players who just want the thrill of being able to control a character they think is "cool"?

Brawl has expectations to fill, and if some people feel that (so far) it hasn't, then why trash-talk them for it? If you disagree, then that's fine! Wait until the game is officialy released and explored, and THEN say "stfu c i told you so hahakthxbai". Judging on what we've seen, the depth appears to be limited to me. Not that there won't be other techniques to make the game unique and all, but the fact the remains that Melee was absolutely amazing (perhaps by accident), and that a step downwards would be unbearable for some. Can the new programmers pull it off? So far not.

The original poster claims that the depth of Melee was discovered/created by the players. Granted. However, it is not mentioned that the game was designed such that this depthness could be explored. It is a prerequisite. You can find many new things to try to make the game seem "deep", but if the game devolves to a repetitive cycle of strategies where one player can consistently win by doing technique a) b) and c) , then perhaps the game isn't as deep as you think. It is illogical to try to say that the game will be deep because the players will make it so... you can try to make rock+paper+scizzors as deep as you want to (I've tried), but frankly, it's impossible. Therefore, the argument of "anything with a vs mode can be competitive" fails.

Another fault in the previous argument is that Melee is pretty much all we have to go on to decide whether Brawl is as deep or not. It sets the standard, it is of the same series, naturally it's going to be used as a measuring stick.

Consider the example of Charmander/Charmeleon/Charizard. If you had a Charmeleon, and it evolved into Charizard, A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT POKEMON. Note, "this [pokemon] is not brawl [the original pokemon]". So you've been hyped up about getting this new pokemon, training up and being excited, and then you get your new Charizard. What the fudge? IT SUCKS? YOU LOST TO A BULBASAUR? Oh wait, it's fine, forget regretting that it evolved, IT'S A WHOLE NEW POKEMON, WHY IN THE WORLD would you compare to your old Charmeleon who consistently kicked that mofo Gary's @ss? Surely you see why this "it's a different game" argument fails...

Also, I am not quite sure what makes people think they can decide who the 'REAL' pros are and who the 'fake?' pros are. Last I checked, pros were people who won lots of matches against just about everyone.

I hate to be the one to point out that many people enjoyed learning their "advanced techniques". The advanced techniques which are in Melee seem to work in keeping the game interesting and competitive. Naturally it can be regarded as a loss to have those removed. You say that there will be "new advanced techniques and things that add depth to brawl". By claiming this, you reveal 2 things:

1) You imply that currently, from what you've seen, there is not enough depth in brawl.
2) You are willing to base your argument on non-factual information. I've yet to see the proof that there will be "new advanced techniques". I have, however, seen things that are currently working to negate the possibility of high depth. Id Est, the removal of things that worked to retain originality in metagame.

I'm not trying to be controversial, but rather to express the other side of the argument, and perhaps offer light to what most posters here have not considered. The demo is all we have to go on, and I'm sure that most of these "complainers" and (fake?)pros have expressed the hope that the released version is changed to better suit the dedicated player.

Yeesh where to start. (not going to flame you as I know where you're coming from^^ please read the post as if I were talking calmly no flame/anger intended)

What we've seen so far is a demo. You're judging the depth of the game off of its demo. You're comparing the depth of that demo to the finished greatness that is Melee. Yes Melee was excellent and in itself was a work of perfection.

However I'm not going to sit here and judge Brawl's depth based on its demo like a lot of people are. You say that so far the developers have shown a lack of depth. Well keep in mind that people haven't been able to sit and play with the game the same way they did with Melee. They only got to play 2 minute matches with the items on high with a bunch of other yahoos running around making it hard to focus. How can you expect Brawl to match everything Melee has and more if thats all we've been able to do with it? I'd be ashamed of Melee if that "depth" was trumped in a matter of minutes lol.

It wasn't the wave dashing or the L-canceling that made the matches fresh and new everyday. It was the human element and you should realize that. Your friends and other people were the ones using the tools that are advanced techniques to be unpredictable. The advanced techniques were not using them. The depth, as I've said before, does not lie in the techniques but what the players are able to do with what they have at hand.

I loved it when I found out there was more to Melee. I had stopped playing for a while and then we decided to dust off the disc and start up again. We thought we were at the top of our game until a friend of ours found this site. It blew our minds how little we knew about the game. I was so happy that it wasn't the end. So far there are two or three things that the rest of the Smash fans (casuals) don't know about. And seeing as how this is only a demo and a very limited amount of time has been spent toying with it, thats a good sign.

Theres one thing I find contradictory in your post though. When you said "of course you can find things to make it seem deep..." It wasn't me that was making it seem as if the techniques gave the depth to the game. But there were people saying so (in a way you are as well). I'm basically saying "If its techniques you want I'm sure Brawl will have em" lol.

In the end it will be the new discoveries (like Dash Braking, Trip-Canceling, Ledge hugging,) that the players will utilize in different ways. Wasn't Melee simply using technique a) b) and c) to win? Albeit they were used in many different ways. Do you honestly think that Brawl's own confirmed techniques can't be used just as diversly? We lost wave dashing and gained 3 things so far. If people are still judging depth by techniques then Brawl has alread surpassed Melee in that sense.

Lastly I guess I have to break the different game argument down so you get what I'm saying hell, I'll even use a technique to technique example from the things we already know. In Melee you wave dash to space an attack. In Brawl why wave dash when you can trip-cancel and have more options in distance and follow up? In Melee you L-cancel. In Brawl its done for you lol. Why be difficult for the sake of being difficult (although chances are it was simply absent for the demo purposes.)

If you want to compare Pokemon then its a different view. We aren't comparing Charmeleon to Charizard. We're comparing Charmeleon in the snow and Charmeleon in the woods. In both places Charmeleon has the advantage (ice weak to fire grass weak to fire) but both are advantageous to Charmeleon in different ways.

In terms of Brawl and Melee again, you're putting the player in two different places with different things to work with.

EDIT : Hope you're still awake. I didn't want to rush that juicy block of text. Had to keep reading it and try to touch down on all of your points.

 

[Mama]

Silpheed, of course you wouldn't directly say that Lcancelling is a glitch, that's silly =D .

However, the bulk and topic of the thread is that what's been made clear about Brawl (which includes the lack of Lcancelling) may suggest that it is "advanced" or "not advanced".

By generalizing that it bothers you when people think "Brawl is somehow less "advanced", or anything of the like, just because a GLITCH from the previous game was removed" it is most fairly interpreted as including Lcancelling, no? It is one of the things that has been removed.

To now bring bias into my argument, I wouldn't weep over the loss of wavedash either, but Lcancelling is a different story. The OP indirectly mentions lcancelling as one of the things which isn't a factor in the depth of the Smash bros. series. As you are one who shares a similar view, my interpretation is that you were including L-cancelling in that bundle. Sorry if you feel mis-interpreted. Yay brawl?

Smo, I respect you greatly. Particularly with your usage of the word "whinoscity". I agree with your post completely. I just found it a tad unfair earlier because not both sides of the argument were being properly represented.

Cadit Quaestio.

Mama, can I expect a reply from you? Or should I go sleep!? =D

*risking a double post* I don't think I implied that I felt L-canceling was unimportant. If anything that is the most important thing to me (one of my two mains is Ganondorf). I remain optomistic because its a demo and L-canceling could have merely been removed because of that. I don't see a reason to remove it due to the fact that it (unlike wave dashing) is not reliant on the physics engine. Also if for some reason it is then the least they could do is make less lag on everything.

While making everyone lag free I can see why some people would think the game lacked depth. "If everyone is super nobody will be" right? If nobody lags where can there be depth in different character attacks?

Thinking about it I think that it might be an attempt to balance the game. Less lag puts the characters (not the players) on a more level playing field. The skill of the player determines whether or not they can use that gift to its potential. In a way I thnk I just put myself in a better position on L-canceling....I love human psychology. So easy to console oneself with a few rationalizations.

EDIT : If you are asleep I'll expect a response from you firexemblemxpryde lol. You seem like a cool guy. Made me not feel so bad for taking a sentence and responding with an essay >.>

 

[Smo]

Nah I think that characters lagging was important in melee. You choose your character based on whether or not you like its pros and cons. Removing cons to give everyone pros is a silly idea.

It's like when Melee was originally developed, C Falcon's Star Rod smash fired multiple stars because C Falcon had no other ranged attacks. This is silly, because one of the main burdens of a C Falcon player is not having projectiles. Removing cons from a character makes the character choosing process less important.

Another example more relevant to brawl - footstool jumping. It gives every character a meteor ability. Surely that spoils the point of choosing a meteoring character?
For example, one of the main advantages Marth has over Roy is Dair. That's a reason you might want to choose Marth over Roy. However, if Roy can footstool jump, then he gains a similar ability. What's the point, then? Why choose Marth now if the main reason you picked him was because of his attractive Dair?

I know that Footstool will most likely have 0% priority but that doesn't matter if the character has already used their 3rd jump (which is a time when many spike/meteor opportunities arise).

What I'm basically saying is that characters should lag because it balances the pros and cons. However, I also think that L cancelling is a good idea because it allows a skilled player to remove some of the lag. Which is good. It's using your skill to good effect.

 

[Limey]

I agree with Mama completely, and not even in a way that's insulting to the people who are complaining about the AT removals from Melee to Brawl.

I just think that so many people are judging this game by using Melee, and like Mama said, comparing a sequel to the previous game in the series is something everyone does, but when you start judging it before it's even out, that's when it starts to get crazy.

Don't get me wrong, i know the Melee competitive scene is very strong, but it seems to me that the majority of tourney players aren't anticipating Brawl for the awesome new single player, or the new characters, or the new stages and assist trophies, they're just looking for the competitive side. Brawl will still be a competitive game, like someone said, any game with a multiplayer can be played competitively, but the focus in the brawl rooms is on it's competitiveness, and not the fun you can have playing it on your own, which i assume people would care about just a little bit?

People will find new AT's, and if they don't, then everyone just has to get that much better at playing without them. People have been saying that Sakurai is 'dumbing down' the game to seperate the gap between the noobs and pro players. I don't know exactly what they mean by that, or rather, i don't know the outcome of that. Does it mean that a noob player of Brawl will be able to enter a tourney and win against a pro player, because the pro player has no AT's to fall back on? I really doubt that, but if that's what people mean by it, then like i said, you're all just going to have to get good at playing without AT's.

Plus, i know i'm not a competitive player, but in my head it seems like it'd take way more skill to win without AT's than it would by using AT's effectively. If you were a pro player who used AT's to the best of their ability and Melee, and entered a pro competition, and won without using any AT's at all, wouldn't it make you so much more skilled? If so, then that's what people are going to have to do for Brawl.

And about people who say that WDing is an intergral part of thei play. I know people have said this over and over, but it's true. Brawl isn't Melee, and won't be Melee. People who use WDing extensively in Melee are just going to have to get used to not using it. It's a different game. Someone in another thread used the example that if Link was removed from Brawl, nobody could whine about it because it's the same as WDing being removed. Unfortunately for them, it's not. Link is a character, with a full moveset, backstory, item's from his franchise, etc. WDing is a technique which isn't even needed to play Melee. By that, i mean that jumping is a technique in Melee, but you really need to use it to play the game, because if you don't, you'll die all the time. You don't need to use WDing to play, not at all. I'm talking about the game in general, not just competitive scene.

So yeah.

I mean, ultimately, i could care less because i have no intention of playing competitively. One reason being that i'm too busy with university and other things to do so, and also because there are no tourneys in Wales. But yeah, i keep getting a slight downer at all the people who are saying negative things based on the demo, but then i realise it doesn't effect me whatsoever, so i smile.

I think people need to take a big step back, put Melee to the side for a while, look at what we know about Brawl, and think, "What could i do in this game to play to the best of my ability?", without taking anything from Melee into consideration at all. Think of all the unnecessary stress you're casing yourselves. It's not worth it, because in the end, you guys complaining won't change anything. Try taking a fresh page, and look at the same from there. Clean slate.

 

[Mama]

Nah I think that characters lagging was important in melee. You choose your character based on whether or not you like its pros and cons. Removing cons to give everyone pros is a silly idea.

It's like when Melee was originally developed, C Falcon's Star Rod smash fired multiple stars because C Falcon had no other ranged attacks. This is silly, because one of the main burdens of a C Falcon player is not having projectiles. Removing cons from a character makes the character choosing process less important.

Another example more relevant to brawl - footstool jumping. It gives every character a meteor ability. Surely that spoils the point of choosing a meteoring character?
For example, one of the main advantages Marth has over Roy is Dair. That's a reason you might want to choose Marth over Roy. However, if Roy can footstool jump, then he gains a similar ability. What's the point, then? Why choose Marth now if the main reason you picked him was because of his attractive Dair?

I know that Footstool will most likely have 0% priority but that doesn't matter if the character has already used their 3rd jump (which is a time when many spike/meteor opportunities arise).

What I'm basically saying is that characters should lag because it balances the pros and cons. However, I also think that L cancelling is a good idea because it allows a skilled player to remove some of the lag. Which is good. It's using your skill to good effect.

Yea I understand the pro con thing. I hope L-canceling was indeed only absent in the demo for whatever reason.

However, taking away the lag may not be too big on the character selection aspect. Its just lag. (the way I'll look at it if L-canceling is really made obsolete lol) . There are more important things like what moves to combo, mind game styles, etc that go into character choice. Removing cons to give everyone pros = terrible idea yes. But this is simply one universal thing.

I guess you could say I'm assuming the worst case scenario. Finding the hope in that worst case scenario and accepting the worst case scenario. In the event that I'm wrong I can be happy. In the event that I'm right I can accept it. L-canceling is my favorite of the advanced techniques.

As for foot stool jumps. I think they'll have very low priority or a low spike ratio. And even if they do have a high meteor spiking ratio I think simple meteor canceling would remedy that. That or air dodging then jump or attacking to eliminate the threat lol.

 

[Smo]

Not quite Limey. You say that playing with Adv. Techs takes less skill but playing using Advanced Techs is skill. That's why they're advanced - they require skill. You have to draw a line in what counts as advanced as well.

And Mama, yes I know that lag isn't the only thing that seperates characters, but it affects everything else, in a way. Certain combos might not be possible with or without lag and you can't "mindgame" effeciently if you're floundering about on the floor after a move.

So imho, lag is an important character aspect.

 

[Mama]

I agree with Mama completely, and not even in a way that's insulting to the people who are complaining about the AT removals from Melee to Brawl.

I just think that so many people are judging this game by using Melee, and like Mama said, comparing a sequel to the previous game in the series is something everyone does, but when you start judging it before it's even out, that's when it starts to get crazy.

Don't get me wrong, i know the Melee competitive scene is very strong, but it seems to me that the majority of tourney players aren't anticipating Brawl for the awesome new single player, or the new characters, or the new stages and assist trophies, they're just looking for the competitive side. Brawl will still be a competitive game, like someone said, any game with a multiplayer can be played competitively, but the focus in the brawl rooms is on it's competitiveness, and not the fun you can have playing it on your own, which i assume people would care about just a little bit?

People will find new AT's, and if they don't, then everyone just has to get that much better at playing without them. People have been saying that Sakurai is 'dumbing down' the game to seperate the gap between the noobs and pro players. I don't know exactly what they mean by that, or rather, i don't know the outcome of that. Does it mean that a noob player of Brawl will be able to enter a tourney and win against a pro player, because the pro player has no AT's to fall back on? I really doubt that, but if that's what people mean by it, then like i said, you're all just going to have to get good at playing without AT's.

Plus, i know i'm not a competitive player, but in my head it seems like it'd take way more skill to win without AT's than it would by using AT's effectively. If you were a pro player who used AT's to the best of their ability and Melee, and entered a pro competition, and won without using any AT's at all, wouldn't it make you so much more skilled? If so, then that's what people are going to have to do for Brawl.

And about people who say that WDing is an intergral part of thei play. I know people have said this over and over, but it's true. Brawl isn't Melee, and won't be Melee. People who use WDing extensively in Melee are just going to have to get used to not using it. It's a different game. Someone in another thread used the example that if Link was removed from Brawl, nobody could whine about it because it's the same as WDing being removed. Unfortunately for them, it's not. Link is a character, with a full moveset, backstory, item's from his franchise, etc. WDing is a technique which isn't even needed to play Melee. By that, i mean that jumping is a technique in Melee, but you really need to use it to play the game, because if you don't, you'll die all the time. You don't need to use WDing to play, not at all. I'm talking about the game in general, not just competitive scene.

So yeah.

I mean, ultimately, i could care less because i have no intention of playing competitively. One reason being that i'm too busy with university and other things to do so, and also because there are no tourneys in Wales. But yeah, i keep getting a slight downer at all the people who are saying negative things based on the demo, but then i realise it doesn't effect me whatsoever, so i smile.

I think people need to take a big step back, put Melee to the side for a while, look at what we know about Brawl, and think, "What could i do in this game to play to the best of my ability?", without taking anything from Melee into consideration at all. Think of all the unnecessary stress you're casing yourselves. It's not worth it, because in the end, you guys complaining won't change anything. Try taking a fresh page, and look at the same from there. Clean slate.

I'll touch on the advance play parts:

The advanced techniques aren't things that make people win. They're more of a compilation of play styles. What wins matches are fundamentally combos and mind games. The most common advance techniques also aren't something you can really play without once learned. Short hopping for example is simply not jumping all the way. Doing so allows you to attack with an aerial attack without going to high up and leaving yourself open to other attacks. Fast falling is when you simply press down on the control stick and land on the ground faster which enables you to do your aerial attack and land on the ground. Spending very little time in the air so you can move freely on the ground. L-canceling reduces the lag time of an aerial move. You press L just before hitting the ground after a move. Throw them all together and you get a shuffl. Short Hop Fast Fall L-cancel.

Shuffling is something that becomes imprinted in players. Once you learn how to combo at the competitive level its basically instinct. Shffling is in Brawl and that along with other new things will keep a gap between the casual players and the pros.

I know that it may seem like a lot to learn but its actually pretty easy if you simply practice with friends that play ^^. Advanced techniques are actually the result of skill. It takes skill to play at a higher level. We call them advanced techniques but really all it is is just a more effective way to do certain things. Shffling is the integral advanced technique. It basically means higher level play. More effective. Not simply, if you do it you will win, but more so practice makes perfect. Whoever said wave dashing was didn't really know what he was talking about >.>

Thats one of the things that makes pros pros. Its not they they have these things they use. Its that they do things a different way. Thank you for posting a clear headed post and thanks for your support. I hope I didn't come off rude though >.>