No Crying Until the End: Ninten for Smash Ultimate!

[pupNapoleon]

Considering Wolf was stated to not have made it into Melee (and Falco in his stead) because of their visual similarities, I can see the same happening to Ninten (even if graphics are far better...). Ninten is literally the perfect alt character swap.

Also, if Earthbound gets three characters and they are the equivalent of Marth, Roy, and Lucina, instead of a unique character, I'd be pretty pissed. It would show Earthbound in a terrible light to anyone who has not played the game.

 

[NintenEBB]

Considering Wolf was stated to not have made it into Melee (and Falco in his stead) because of their visual similarities, I can see the same happening to Ninten (even if graphics are far better...). Ninten is literally the perfect alt character swap.

Also, if Earthbound gets three characters and they are the equivalent of Marth, Roy, and Lucina, instead of a unique character, I'd be pretty pissed. It would show Earthbound in a terrible light to anyone who has not played the game.

I hope Ninten wouldn't be an alt otherwise Toriyama would've done it ages ago and Ninten as an alt doesn't really represent his own game in a sense since it's not even Ninten since he will basically do everything Ness does when he has his own unique moves and attributes that Ness and Lucas don't have. Sure there is a factor he doesn't use offensive PSI but even I feel he should at least have PK Beam and not use PK Thunder as a recovery since 4th-D Slip is literally an in game 100% chance of escaping mechanic. Plus if characters like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit can be their own character instead of an alt than a protagonist like Ninten who isn't actually the same character as Ness, in a doctor's outfit, or a dark version of another being, but a being who had his own stroy, started the series and wouldn't be a series technically without his being a success, and the potential he actually has should be in smash.

 

[StarDustStorm]

I hope Ninten wouldn't be an alt otherwise Toriyama would've done it ages ago and Ninten as an alt doesn't really represent his own game in a sense since it's not even Ninten since he will basically do everything Ness does when he has his own unique moves and attributes that Ness and Lucas don't have. Sure there is a factor he doesn't use offensive PSI but even I feel he should at least have PK Beam and not use PK Thunder as a recovery since 4th-D Slip is literally an in game 100% chance of escaping mechanic. Plus if characters like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit can be their own character instead of an alt than a protagonist like Ninten who isn't actually the same character as Ness, in a doctor's outfit, or a dark version of another being, but a being who had his own stroy, started the series and wouldn't be a series technically without his being a success, and the potential he actually has should be in smash.

Wouldn't Ganondorf be somewhat an example of a character moveset based on a character who originated AFTER him. I know that form of Ganon doesn't appear until Ocerina of Time after Snes Fzero's release but there has been other Ganon's before him and Captain Falcon's debut. Since the case is somewhat similar, only the fans will be somewhat upset on how they misrepresented the character. Though is somewhat different since Ganondorf has a lot of games than CF. Since people has a longterm experience of Ganondorf being a clone, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a similar kind of backlash for Ninten being some form of a clone for Ness. Plus its not a good idea to do this when the 30th anniversary of the MOTHER Series will be coming next year if Nintendo plans stuff for the MOTHER Series outside of Smash Bros.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I hope Ninten wouldn't be an alt otherwise Toriyama would've done it ages ago and Ninten as an alt doesn't really represent his own game in a sense since it's not even Ninten since he will basically do everything Ness does when he has his own unique moves and attributes that Ness and Lucas don't have. Sure there is a factor he doesn't use offensive PSI but even I feel he should at least have PK Beam and not use PK Thunder as a recovery since 4th-D Slip is literally an in game 100% chance of escaping mechanic. Plus if characters like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit can be their own character instead of an alt than a protagonist like Ninten who isn't actually the same character as Ness, in a doctor's outfit, or a dark version of another being, but a being who had his own stroy, started the series and wouldn't be a series technically without his being a success, and the potential he actually has should be in smash.

-All of that, Because Alph also fits that model, but is actually a generation further.
The fact that we already have Lucas doesn't bode well for the case either.

I'm not saying wanting him is a bad thing, but calling it likely is still ridiculous.
Possible. Sure. Likely?

 

[FamicomDisk]

I think Ninten would be a cool addition, and I do want another Mother character in Smash, but if I'm being honest, I'd prefer another character to Ninten. Personal pick would be Kumatora, but it would also be cool change of pace to see a non-PSI user - if we're looking at the first game, Loid would be a great choice, but Jeff and Duster would work for the other games too!

Also, something I haven't seen pointed out - I think many people who say that Ninten and Ness are too similar in design are also thinking about how it would look to someone unfamiliar with the series. People who have played their games will know the difference, but to someone who hasn't, it just looks like two kids with red hats and blue striped shirts. Not saying that this should be a hindrance to his chances - we have Dark Pit, so I don't think similarity is much of an issue! Just pointing out why people might mention this.

But yeah, even though he wouldn't be my top pick for a Mother character, I definitely support Ninten!

 

[AdmN30]

I'm not saying wanting him is a bad thing, but calling it likely is still ridiculous.
Possible. Sure. Likely?

Those two words are synonyms, you know.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Those two words are synonyms, you know.

Possible and Likely are NOT synonyms.

Possible means it could happen. Meaning, a greater than zero percent chance.
Likely means that it is probable to happen, meaning, a greater than fifty percent chance.

They are not synonyms.

 

[JomSpoons]

While I realistically don't think Ninten will be added to Smash, the huge Mother fan inside of me really wants him to complete the protagonist trio. I would love to have another Mother rep, especially Ninten, but even with the love Nintendo has finally been giving the series, I just don't think EarthBound Beginnings is nearly as loved by people as much as EarthBound or Mother 3. It's a real shame, because I think EB Beginnings is a fantastic game, especially for it's time, but since it isn't as polished as the other two games in the series it usually gets the cold shoulder from fans.

I don't like it when people say "THIS game is the best in the Mother series!" because I don't think there is a true best. All of them are different yet one in the same. It's hard to compare EarthBound, which is more nonlinear and a less serious, to Mother 3, which is more linear and is often more serious. The games are very alike, of course, but I don't think it's right to compare them as if there's a definitive game. EB Beginnings unfortunately suffers the most from this, since it's more primitive than the other two. I think part of the beauty of the series is how they're all unique in their own way, and because of that I think Ninten deserves a spot in Smash. I would love EarthBound Beginnings to finally get some of the spotlight.

Do I think it'll happen? Likely not. I think someone like Porky would be more realistic (who I'd also really like but I'd prefer Ninten) since he's in two of the games and serves as an antagonist in both, that is if another Mother character is considered at all. But would I want him? Yes, 100%. EB Beginnings is the most underrated game in the franchise and I think it'd be great to have Ninten added to the cast of characters. You have my support!

 

[StarDustStorm]

Do I think it'll happen? Likely not. I think someone like Porky would be more realistic (who I'd also really like but I'd prefer Ninten) since he's in two of the games and serves as an antagonist in both, that is if another Mother character is considered at all. But would I want him? Yes, 100%. EB Beginnings is the most underrated game in the franchise and I think it'd be great to have Ninten added to the cast of characters. You have my support!

It really depends if the developers would be willing to animate four legs for a Porky moveset, if he's inside that vechicle he is in MOTHER 3 then I'd think he would be too big similarly to Ridley. it would be a lot easier to animate him in outside of the vechicle with legs but it wouldn't be true to the character since he's pretty old in MOTHER 3.
Plus we don't even have a kid from the 80s, we have child characters from the 90s (Ness). 2000s, Villager but not from the 2010s or 80s.

 

[JomSpoons]

we don't even have a kid from the 80s, we have child characters from the 90s (Ness). 2000s, Villager but not from the 2010s or 80s.

Not true anymore necessarily. Now we have the squid kids! That counts as a kid 2010s character, right?
Also, is Pit considered a kid? That'd make him a kid 80s character. Probably not though, he seems more like a teenager even though his franchise is called Kid Icarus.

 

[FamicomDisk]

It really depends if the developers would be willing to animate four legs for a Porky moveset, if he's inside that vechicle he is in MOTHER 3 then I'd think he would be too big similarly to Ridley. it would be a lot easier to animate him in outside of the vechicle with legs but it wouldn't be true to the character since he's pretty old in MOTHER 3.
Plus we don't even have a kid from the 80s, we have child characters from the 90s (Ness). 2000s, Villager but not from the 2010s or 80s.

While it's true that including Porky as he appears in Mother 3 would be a bit of an issue, I don't think they necessarily have to use his most recent appearance as his Smash appearance. Link, for example, used his Twilight Princess design in Smash 4 despite Skyward Sword being the most recent appearance of a regular-proportioned Link, and Pac-Man has his eyes like the original art, rather than the design he uses now, among other examples. If Porky joined Smash, I think they'd be fine to use the version of him from EarthBound, where he'd just go by foot. Though it does raise the question - what moves would he have? You never fight him like that in EB.

That's not to say I think Porky is very likely, though. While I think a new Mother character is definitely possible, I think it'll be another hero if we get one, like Jeff, Kumatora, or Ninten! But I also don't think his M3 appearance is much of a barrier for him.

 

[StarDustStorm]

Not true anymore necessarily. Now we have the squid kids! That counts as a kid 2010s character, right?
Also, is Pit considered a kid? That'd make him a kid 80s character. Probably not though, he seems more like a teenager even though his franchise is called Kid Icarus.

I do agree with you on this quote all the way however the Squids and Pit aren't humans.

 

[sman3579]

While I like the idea and thought of Ninten making it in, I don’t really think he deserves to. Earthbound is basically a dead series now and is already lucky it has 2 reps. I don’t think it really deserves a 3rd, plus I could see them pulling a Fox/Falco/Wolf sort of thing and just making him a 3rd clone. Plus his design is very similar to Ness, I think it would be better just to make him a pallet swap instead.

 

[Crystanium]

I was working on Ninten as a potential character, but this thread was made before I even succeeded in that. The same can be said of Dark Samus, who I made in Make Your Move before this room was made. Anyway, I think your moveset could be improved in terms complexity. When I was making Ninten, I had different movesets, especially for specials. These were mine, but since this isn't my thread, I'm just going to offer the gist of these attacks.

Offense Up (B)
Ninten's attacks have an attack boost.

Teleport (Up+B)
This recovery is better than Ness' and Lucas', since Ninten isn't left open or vulnerable. It behaves similarly to Sheik's Vanish.

Hypnosis (Side+B)
Similar to Mewtwo's Disable.

PowerShield (Down+B)
Rather than absorbing energy, Ninten can reflect energy.

 

[NintenEBB]

Dark Pit and Doctor Mario.

 

[NintenEBB]

While I like the idea and thought of Ninten making it in, I don’t really think he deserves to. Earthbound is basically a dead series now and is already lucky it has 2 reps. I don’t think it really deserves a 3rd, plus I could see them pulling a Fox/Falco/Wolf sort of thing and just making him a 3rd clone. Plus his design is very similar to Ness, I think it would be better just to make him a pallet swap instead.

If third party characters can get in than a dead series can get in more characters too. The reason he wasn't in smash 64 was cause of Ness's game being more recent. It's more preferable than another FE character if you ask me and the whole similar to Ness argument is irrelevant since we got characters with literally the same name in it. Dr. Mario and Dark Pit are examples of this. Him being a pallete swap doesn't really work since he's way different from other characters to the point he can be his own and I mean he isn't like Alph or the Koopalings either. Even if it's unlikely fir him to be in it's true. Only reason I don't think Kumatora should be in is for the fact she already taught Lucas all her moves. The only unique move she would have is PK Ground and I still think Ninten who started the series deserves a chance more than any other character. Not trying to hate on your opinion or anything.

 

[MysticKnives]

I don’t get why some call Mother dead. It finished

 

[FamicomDisk]

So with the Smash announcements today, we got the reveal of Echo Fighters! These are how they're labelling clones that are very close to their original counterpart - you can see some examples on the official site's character list, where Lucina and the newly announced Daisy are Echo Fighters of Marth and Peach respectively, as indicated by the "ε" next to their number.

Because they're making an entire new character category for these kinds of characters, I think Ninten's probably got a good shot at being an Echo Fighter of Ness! He would use moves that are very similar to Ness, but they behave differently in terms of properties and such. Based on the fact that Lucina and Daisy have the same number as the character they're an Echo of, it seems like they'll be closely linked - maybe Echo Fighters will be accessed as alternate costumes. That means that Ninten could appear without his visual similarities to Ness confusing those unfamilar with the Mother games! What does everyone else think?

 

[RileyXY1]

So with the Smash announcements today, we got the reveal of Echo Fighters! These are how they're labelling clones that are very close to their original counterpart - you can see some examples on the official site's character list, where Lucina and the newly announced Daisy are Echo Fighters of Marth and Peach respectively, as indicated by the "ε" next to their number.

Because they're making an entire new character category for these kinds of characters, I think Ninten's probably got a good shot at being an Echo Fighter of Ness! He would use moves that are very similar to Ness, but they behave differently in terms of properties and such. Based on the fact that Lucina and Daisy have the same number as the character they're an Echo of, it seems like they'll be closely linked - maybe Echo Fighters will be accessed as alternate costumes. That means that Ninten could appear without his visual similarities to Ness confusing those unfamilar with the Mother games! What does everyone else think?

Ninten would at least need a unique neutral special and final smash because PK Flash and PK Starstorm didn't exist in EB.

 

[FamicomDisk]

Ninten would at least need a unique neutral special and final smash because PK Flash and PK Starstorm didn't exist in EB.

True, but they could be called something different while operating similarily! PK Flash could become PK Beam, for example. PK Starstorm would probably be harder to get around, so that might get modified? We don't know Daisy's Final Smash, but it's possible that newcomer Echo Fighters could get new Final Smashes.

 

[GoodGrief741]

He’d probably work better as a semiclone, but hey, ya gotta start somewhere, right?

I’d wait to see if any character that starts out as an Echo ever levels up to semiclone before I start supporting characters to be Echoes.

 

[Sheng Long]

Yeah I can really see Ninten as an echo character (for Ness) so his chances seem pretty good. Just change up the way some moves work and replace PK Flash and Starstorm and things should be fine. I think his final smash should be PK Beam but with Ana appearing to help him and PK Flash gets replaced with something else...

 

[StarDustStorm]

Yeah I can really see Ninten as an echo character (for Ness) so his chances seem pretty good. Just change up the way some moves work and replace PK Flash and Starstorm and things should be fine. I think his final smash should be PK Beam but with Ana appearing to help him and PK Flash gets replaced with something else...

I think he might fit as an Echo fighter of Villager too if you are going to make him use tools like him or you can just use a mix of these two fighters cause of slingshot and PK moves like how Wolf reused some assets from other fighters.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think that Ninten would be an echo of Ness if he makes it in. Ninten would need a unique neutral special and Final Smash because PK Flash and PK Starstorm did not exist in Mother 1.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

My question is how different is too different to be an Echo fighter? Different Final Smashes seem to be fair game so PK Starstorm could easily become the Eight Melodies. Since Ness and Lucas have their allies helping out, it would be a fitting FS for Ninten since Ana and Lloyd join him in singing.

Replacing PK Flash with PK Beam is trickier. I'd normally believe that Beam would operate much like R.O.B.'s own beam than it would PK Flash and Ness' animation for charging PK Flash wouldn't fit in at all. However, maybe it could become ayellow beam (or even an orb) of light that arches over Ninten's head and then flashes a blinding light around a radius when Ninten stops charging (radius size depends on how long you charge). It would just be a fancier change of properties for PK Flash rather than a fully new move.

 

[Gallowglass]

I love the Mother series and I've played all three games. I wouldn't mind seeing Ninten as an Echo character of Ness but I would like him as an original character obviously.

I like the idea of Ninten being more physical base then Ness or Lucas since he had no offensive PSI moves in the original game. Now they could give him offensive PSI attacks just like they gave PSI moves that Ness and Lucas couldn't use in their game. I also find it weird that Ness and Lucas do not use their signature move PK Rockin or PK Love.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

I love the Mother series and I've played all three games. I wouldn't mind seeing Ninten as an Echo character of Ness but I would like him as an original character obviously.

I like the idea of Ninten being more physical base then Ness or Lucas since he had no offensive PSI moves in the original game. Now they could give him offensive PSI attacks just like they gave PSI moves that Ness and Lucas couldn't use in their game. I also find it weird that Ness and Lucas do not use their signature move PK Rockin or PK Love.

Lucas' up-smash is actually assumed to be PK Love since it's extremely similar to the needle-pulling animation in one of his victory poses and is his strongest attack.

 

[Takasmash]

I want Ninten in smash ultimate as Ness echo and I think it could happen because theres so much Mother Love in Ultimate I wouldn't be surprise if we get Porky or Ninten playable in smash ultimate.

 

[warelander]

Count me in as someone who really wants Ninten, when they brought up Echo Fighters and gave them their own term I immediately thought of him.

Who knows, with the game's already large roster of veterans we might be seeing a larger then usual focus on Echoes as newcomers and there is nobody who I would want more that fits into that category, then Ninten. Even if I would prefer him getting a unique moveset, having him in the game alongside the other MOTHER protagonists would be nothing short of delightful.

 

[MattX20]

PK Freeze could easily replace PK Flash, as PK Freeze is in Mother/Earthbound Beginnings after all. That, and I can imagine PK Beam being the Final Smash with Lloyd and Ana coming to assist Ninten in it and a giant beam of energy equivalent to let's say Samus's FS comes down on the stage and wipes everyone out who is in range.

 

[AdmN30]

I think it is worth mentioning that there were no Yo-yos as equipable weapons in EarthBound Beginnings. If Ninten does become an Echo Fighter of Ness and they still want to stay true to his game, then it might be hard to work around that detail unless they replace it entirely.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I think it is worth mentioning that there were no Yo-yos as equipable weapons in EarthBound Beginnings. If Ninten does become an Echo Fighter of Ness and they still want to stay true to his game, then it might be hard to work around that detail unless they replace it entirely.

He could be an echo of Lucas and simple use the model of the Baseball bat in his forward smash,

 

[MattX20]

He could be an echo of Lucas and simple use the model of the Baseball bat in his forward smash,

Does Ninten have a rope to replace the snake Lucas uses in his moveset?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Does Ninten have a rope to replace the snake Lucas uses in his moveset?

If we get a little creative...

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Wasn't Ninten specifically designed to be similar to Ness so the player can decide if they were the same person?

"

• Ness was designed to be similar to Ninten in appearance to allow the player to choose whether they were the same person or different.

"

I've seen an article on that and it's on various wiki sources on the Mother series

 

[MattX20]

If we get a little creative...

Okay, it turns out there is a rope item in the original Mother. https://wikibound.info/wiki/List_of_battle_items_in_Mother#Rope

 

[FamicomDisk]

I wonder if Ninten could pull from both Ness and Lucas as an Echo Fighter? The Echo Fighters we know so far - Daisy, Dark Pit, and Lucina - all take properties from a single character. But I wonder if it's possible that future Echo Fighters could take properties from two or three clone characters? Nothing too crazy, but with Lucas being a clone of Ness, their properties are already pretty similar. So could Ninten, for example, take Ness' grabs and forward Smash, while taking Lucas' moves for other things?

I know that Echo Fighters are supposed to be really similar to their original character, but I wonder if Echos can take from multiple clone characters? Like an Echo Fighter that takes parts from both Marth and Roy's moves, Mario and Luigi's moves, Ness and Lucas' moves, and so on.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

I wonder if Ninten could pull from both Ness and Lucas as an Echo Fighter? The Echo Fighters we know so far - Daisy, Dark Pit, and Lucina - all take properties from a single character. But I wonder if it's possible that future Echo Fighters could take properties from two or three clone characters? Nothing too crazy, but with Lucas being a clone of Ness, their properties are already pretty similar. So could Ninten, for example, take Ness' grabs and forward Smash, while taking Lucas' moves for other things?

I know that Echo Fighters are supposed to be really similar to their original character, but I wonder if Echos can take from multiple clone characters? Like an Echo Fighter that takes parts from both Marth and Roy's moves, Mario and Luigi's moves, Ness and Lucas' moves, and so on.

Lucas is at worst, a semi-clone. They're different enough that borrowing from both of them would make Ninten not an Echo fighter of either one. There's no rule that says it couldn't happen, but judging what we know about Echo fighters (exactly the same as the original source) and how they're advertised (same fighter number + an epsilon symbol... would Ninten need to be both #10 and #37?), it doesn't seem likely.

 

[MattX20]

So yeah, I think it's safe to say that Ninten will be a Lucas echo after all. Change the stick to a bat, the snake to rope, and PK Starstorm to PK Beam. The only thing I'm unsure of is how he would be designed. A fusion between his clay model and the Famicom commercial appearance?

 

[Enchess]

I was working on Ninten as a potential character, but this thread was made before I even succeeded in that. The same can be said of Dark Samus, who I made in Make Your Move before this room was made. Anyway, I think your moveset could be improved in terms complexity. When I was making Ninten, I had different movesets, especially for specials. These were mine, but since this isn't my thread, I'm just going to offer the gist of these attacks.

Offense Up (B)
Ninten's attacks have an attack boost.

Teleport (Up+B)
This recovery is better than Ness' and Lucas', since Ninten isn't left open or vulnerable. It behaves similarly to Sheik's Vanish.

Hypnosis (Side+B)
Similar to Mewtwo's Disable.

PowerShield (Down+B)
Rather than absorbing energy, Ninten can reflect energy.

Reminds me of how me and a friend always did "Psychic Battles" with Ness and Mewtwo. I'd actually be cool with Ninten taking Lucas' tilts and smashes and Mewtwo's specials with visual tweaks (also make Neutral B a beam instead of a ball)