Social NintenZone Social 4 - Bring It In, Guys!

[Deleted member]

TBH the only Zelda game I feel is significantly overrated is Majora's Mask because I remember back in the days pre-MM remake when a lot of MM fanboys kept on going about how their game was "so much better" than Ocarina of Time because "it's dark" or"muh NPC interaction" and all that jazz. Though to be fair a lot of people have started to realize how people have been overrating MM in recent times and it's been getting some flak as a result of that. Zelda cycle I guess.

I also think TP is quite overrated because there was nothing about that game that really wow'd me or anything.

MM is rated highly because of its sidequests and the attention to detail to Clock Town.

The side quests in MM are some of the best designed in all of gaming, both from a gameplay standopoint in intricacy and uniqueness, as well as narrative, as they all add more depth to the world.

It has less to do with it being "dark" as it has to do with the atmosphere and mood of the game fitting well with all its other aspects. It's a game with very tight and polished focus. I've still yet to come across a game with as good sidequests as MM.

MM basically accomplishes what I criticized XCX of being unable to do. Despite being much smaller, the world of Termina is much richer, and feels more alive than the massive continents of Mira.

Red Alert 2 was definitely the pinnacle of the series

Word, RA2 and its expansion are easily the best. With Zero Hour being a close second.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Super Metroid is legit a spectacular game that does so many things so well it's crazy that it was a SNES game.

Lab Zero made a 3 hour live stream where they played Super Metroid and all they did was point out how beautiful the game design is from every last detail and it is a really great show.

https://www.twitch.tv/labzero/v/50686436

Whether or not Super Metroid is great isn't the question.

The only problem is that the gameplay style of Metroid games isn't for everyone. The backtracking and large amounts of exploring just isn't fun for some people

 

[Deleted member]

I've never even played through a Zelda game outside of the timed brawl demos, so I can't even say a single thing about the series. So I can't say it's overrated without fully understanding it.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I wonder if I'll live to see the day when the fickle cycles of the internet arbitrarily decide that Skyward Sword was the best game in the Zelda series.

 

[Knight Dude]

Yeah, but I'm not saying they're bad games.

I'm simply saying the series doesn't deserve to be heralded with such reverence.



SM has brilliant level design in that it TEACHES you how to play the game without any tutorials, and has maze-like levels that loop back around on themselves perfectly, and stack up in difficulty just right to keep the player engaged. In order to appreciate SM, you have to like non-linear games, and pay a lot of attention to the minor details and level design. It's not a game you can speed through unless you know what you're doing.


There is a subjective side to it, but there are criteria for which to gague the quality and design of a game, and compare it to others. This is why game critics exist.

That's not to say you can't enjoy something with poor reviews, but it also doesn't mean that there aren't objective criteria.


Not at all.

LttP beats OoT in terms of dungeon design, and content. It's also less "hand holdy" than OoT. OoT often tells you where to go blatantly, thanks to Navi, wheras LttP is a lot more cryptic, forcing the player to think and figure out where to go next on their own.

Also, the first three dungeons in OoT are nothing short of garbage. The reason OoT imo doesn't rank that highly is cause of its slow start. The first three dungeons can all be beat in less than 2 hours. I remember they each took me about 15 min a piece in my most recent playthrough, and this is after 10 years since I last played OoT. Which then leaves you with 5 dungeons in OoT not counting the side dungeons. Now, the 5 main dungeons are all REALLY REALLY good, but they don't quite stack up to the ones in LttP tbh, and LttP still has more overall. Watch the Boss Keys series on YT to get a more thorough breakdown on this.



Well, like I said. They're definitely groundbreaking games, and deserve a lot of credit. But compared to other games of modern and previous generations, it's hard to justify Zelda as "gaming's finest." And it's got little to do with the deterioration of the series in recent times. Even at its peak, stack up OoT, MM, LttP, any of them, to say Bloodborne, or Dark Souls, and it's not a contest. Both of those games are VASTLY better than Zelda, and the attention to detail far surpasses what you see in Zelda. If we go backwards, I already said Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night are much more deserving of the GOAT title, as they're simply better designed games in terms of level design, progression, combat, etc... OoT, can be very clumsy with its combat, and the puzzles are not too challenging, and oftentimes a bit dull. The level design is very simplistic compared to its predecesor, LttP, the jump to 3D had an impact on the level design in a rather negative way. And honestly, it has nothing to do with the limitations of 3D space, as FromSoft has shown us that Metroid-like level design is indeed possible in modern 3D titles, yet Nintendo has been unable to replicate the complexity of dungeon design found in Link's Awakening and LttP since then. And then you have games which are chock full of extra content and replayability like TWEWY, showing us what a perfectly polished game looks like. One in which all of the mechanics are carefully thought out and flow seamlessly.


Anyway, to everyone who answered this Question, what are your top 10 games?

These are mine:

View attachment 122768

At 11 I'd put Halo 3, and at 12 I'd put Majora's Mask. 13 would probably be Metroid Prime Trilogy, 14 Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate, and from there it's really hard to kinda pin things down, as too many titles crop up.

In no particular order. I'm doing top 15 though.

1. Mega Man X/X2
2. Mega Man 3
3. Tekken 5
4. Tekken 3
5. Soul Calibur 2
6. Metroid Prime and Prime 2
7. Mario World
8. Smash 4/Melee
9. Marvel vs Capcom 1
10. DBZ Budokai 3
11. Ultimate Spider-Man
12. Jump Ultimate Stars
13. Shantae
14. Shovel Knight
15. Mario Kart Double Dash

Not a list of the greatest games ever, but the first 15 I could think of as my favorites. I'm sure there's others I'm forgetting.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

MM is rated highly because of its sidequests and the attention to detail to Clock Town.

The side quests in MM are some of the best designed in all of gaming, both from a gameplay standopoint in intricacy and uniqueness, as well as narrative, as they all add more depth to the world.

It has less to do with it being "dark" as it has to do with the atmosphere and mood of the game fitting well with all its other aspects. It's a game with very tight and polished focus. I've still yet to come across a game with as good sidequests as MM.


Word, RA2 and its expansion are easily the best. With Zero Hour being a close second.

Yeah, I loved Zero Hour. I always played as the Chinese. Warlord Tanks kicked ass

Although I did play using the GLA General "Dr. Thrax" occasionally

 

[FalKoopa]

Anyway, to everyone who answered this Question, what are your top 10 games?

• Fire Emblem - Path of Radiance
• New Super Mario Bros. Wii
• Super Smash Bros. Brawl (w/ mods)
• Kirby's Return to Dream Land
• Valkyria Chronicles
• HyperDimension Neptunia
• Tropico 3
• Rise of Nations
• Pokémon Black and White
• Touhou (the series as a whole, as the games are largely similar.)

Yeah, I play a lot of comparatively unconventional games.

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

Anyway, to everyone who answered this Question, what are your top 10 games?

In no particular order.
1.) Sonic Generations/Sonic 3 and Knuckles
2.) Super Mario Galaxy 1+2
3.) Rayman 3: Hoodlum Havoc/Rayman Legends
4.) LittleBigPlanet 2
5.) Super Smash Bros for Wii U/3DS
6.) Donkey Kong Country
7.) Shantae and the Pirates' Curse
8.) Kid Icarus: Uprising

...That's all I can think of at the moment.

I really need to start diversifying what genres of games I play.

 

[Coricus]

Yeah, but I'm not saying they're bad games.

I'm simply saying the series doesn't deserve to be heralded with such reverence.



SM has brilliant level design in that it TEACHES you how to play the game without any tutorials, and has maze-like levels that loop back around on themselves perfectly, and stack up in difficulty just right to keep the player engaged. In order to appreciate SM, you have to like non-linear games, and pay a lot of attention to the minor details and level design. It's not a game you can speed through unless you know what you're doing.


There is a subjective side to it, but there are criteria for which to gague the quality and design of a game, and compare it to others. This is why game critics exist.

That's not to say you can't enjoy something with poor reviews, but it also doesn't mean that there aren't objective criteria.


Not at all.

LttP beats OoT in terms of dungeon design, and content. It's also less "hand holdy" than OoT. OoT often tells you where to go blatantly, thanks to Navi, wheras LttP is a lot more cryptic, forcing the player to think and figure out where to go next on their own.

Also, the first three dungeons in OoT are nothing short of garbage. The reason OoT imo doesn't rank that highly is cause of its slow start. The first three dungeons can all be beat in less than 2 hours. I remember they each took me about 15 min a piece in my most recent playthrough, and this is after 10 years since I last played OoT. Which then leaves you with 5 dungeons in OoT not counting the side dungeons. Now, the 5 main dungeons are all REALLY REALLY good, but they don't quite stack up to the ones in LttP tbh, and LttP still has more overall. Watch the Boss Keys series on YT to get a more thorough breakdown on this.



Well, like I said. They're definitely groundbreaking games, and deserve a lot of credit. But compared to other games of modern and previous generations, it's hard to justify Zelda as "gaming's finest." And it's got little to do with the deterioration of the series in recent times. Even at its peak, stack up OoT, MM, LttP, any of them, to say Bloodborne, or Dark Souls, and it's not a contest. Both of those games are VASTLY better than Zelda, and the attention to detail far surpasses what you see in Zelda. If we go backwards, I already said Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night are much more deserving of the GOAT title, as they're simply better designed games in terms of level design, progression, combat, etc... OoT, can be very clumsy with its combat, and the puzzles are not too challenging, and oftentimes a bit dull. The level design is very simplistic compared to its predecesor, LttP, the jump to 3D had an impact on the level design in a rather negative way. And honestly, it has nothing to do with the limitations of 3D space, as FromSoft has shown us that Metroid-like level design is indeed possible in modern 3D titles, yet Nintendo has been unable to replicate the complexity of dungeon design found in Link's Awakening and LttP since then. And then you have games which are chock full of extra content and replayability like TWEWY, showing us what a perfectly polished game looks like. One in which all of the mechanics are carefully thought out and flow seamlessly.


Anyway, to everyone who answered this Question, what are your top 10 games?

These are mine:

View attachment 122768

At 11 I'd put Halo 3, and at 12 I'd put Majora's Mask. 13 would probably be Metroid Prime Trilogy, 14 Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate, and from there it's really hard to kinda pin things down, as too many titles crop up.

"Deserve" is a pretty tricky word. There's a lot of things where I feel as though reverence gets in the way of basic respect for other humans or proceeds to flood conversation to the point of being overwhelming once it's fandom kicks into hype mode. Super Metroid, Donkey Kong Country, Sonic 3&K, Pokemon RBY, and Super Smash Bros Melee are examples of the former, Zelda, Mario, and Undertale are examples of the latter. Pokemon is probably admittedly an example of the latter as well, although I don't notice it as much due to actually being a fan.

Reviewers are also a bit easy to skew since they can be paid off, and reviewers are no less opinionated and subjective than any other human beings. To assume that some reviewers won't let their personal bias get in the way of measuring objective points is perhaps unfortunately assuming too much out of the human species.

What exactly is your stance on games such as Earthbound that reviewed poorly upon release but proceeded to develop large amounts of appreciation later on, may I ask?

As for a top ten games, I make attempts at times but due to the unreliability of memory and my lack of seeing what video games are the "best" as a competition I doubt a list with a set number would work well in my case.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm not sure if this truly is my top 10, but...

Super Mario Bros 3
Pokemon SM or Pokemon HGSS (SM was my favorite but I'd rather play the most current version)
Warcraft 3/ Warcraft 2 (I probably played 3 more and love it for it's map editor but I have nostalgia for WC2
Red Alert 2 /Yuri's Revenge!
Spore
Minecraft
Halo, either 1,2 or Reach
Team Fortress 2
Donkey Kong Country 2
Chrono Trigger, one of the FF, or Dragon Quest 8/9 for the last slot

 

[Deleted member]

Super Metroid is legit a spectacular game that does so many things so well it's crazy that it was a SNES game.

Lab Zero made a 3 hour live stream where they played Super Metroid and all they did was point out how beautiful the game design is from every last detail and it is a really great show.

https://www.twitch.tv/labzero/v/50686436

Whether or not Super Metroid is great isn't the question.

The only problem is that the gameplay style of Metroid games isn't for everyone. The backtracking and large amounts of exploring just isn't fun for some people

This.

Like the Souls series, it's not for everyone. But its brilliance and greatness are objectively undeniable.

In no particular order. I'm doing top 15 though.
12. Jump Ultimate Stars

Mah *****.

I wonder if I'll live to see the day when the fickle cycles of the internet arbitrarily decide that Skyward Sword was the best game in the Zelda series.

I doubt that will ever happen seriously. SS is a legit mediocre game. It's got its high points, but it's also got very critical flaws that can only be overlooked by people who haven't played other Zelda games. Plus, BotW seems to be set to break that dumb cycle anyway.

Yeah, I loved Zero Hour. I always played as the Chinese. Warlord Tanks kicked ***

Although I did play using the GLA General "Dr. Thrax" occasionally

My fave was the Air Force General.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

This.

Like the Souls series, it's not for everyone. But its brilliance and greatness are objectively undeniable.


Mah *****.


I doubt that will ever happen seriously. SS is a legit mediocre game. It's got its high points, but it's also got very critical flaws that can only be overlooked by people who haven't played other Zelda games. Plus, BotW seems to be set to break that dumb cycle anyway.


My fave was the Air Force General.

I think I usually played the laser general when I picked the US, but I didn't pick them as much as China

 

[Curious Villager]

I wonder if I'll live to see the day when the fickle cycles of the internet arbitrarily decide that Skyward Sword was the best game in the Zelda series.

I don't think we will. Opinions on Twilight Princess aren't really much different than they where, say, five years ago. Even after the remake.

Wind Waker seems to be in an odd position though as it seems that those who love or despise the game seem to continuously try to out-vocal each other in regards to their love/hate of that game these days....

 

[Ura]

I think the exact opposite

People always said MM was nothing more than an OoT clone, and more recently it's been seen in a better light of having deeper themes than first tought

Well yeah that's for sure.

Funny how that stereotype was flipped around a decade later. It's only been in very recent times where people have been able to view both games in a positive light.

Yeah, but I'm not saying they're bad games.

I'm simply saying the series doesn't deserve to be heralded with such reverence.



SM has brilliant level design in that it TEACHES you how to play the game without any tutorials, and has maze-like levels that loop back around on themselves perfectly, and stack up in difficulty just right to keep the player engaged. In order to appreciate SM, you have to like non-linear games, and pay a lot of attention to the minor details and level design. It's not a game you can speed through unless you know what you're doing.


There is a subjective side to it, but there are criteria for which to gague the quality and design of a game, and compare it to others. This is why game critics exist.

That's not to say you can't enjoy something with poor reviews, but it also doesn't mean that there aren't objective criteria.


Not at all.

LttP beats OoT in terms of dungeon design, and content. It's also less "hand holdy" than OoT. OoT often tells you where to go blatantly, thanks to Navi, wheras LttP is a lot more cryptic, forcing the player to think and figure out where to go next on their own.

Also, the first three dungeons in OoT are nothing short of garbage. The reason OoT imo doesn't rank that highly is cause of its slow start. The first three dungeons can all be beat in less than 2 hours. I remember they each took me about 15 min a piece in my most recent playthrough, and this is after 10 years since I last played OoT. Which then leaves you with 5 dungeons in OoT not counting the side dungeons. Now, the 5 main dungeons are all REALLY REALLY good, but they don't quite stack up to the ones in LttP tbh, and LttP still has more overall. Watch the Boss Keys series on YT to get a more thorough breakdown on this.



Well, like I said. They're definitely groundbreaking games, and deserve a lot of credit. But compared to other games of modern and previous generations, it's hard to justify Zelda as "gaming's finest." And it's got little to do with the deterioration of the series in recent times. Even at its peak, stack up OoT, MM, LttP, any of them, to say Bloodborne, or Dark Souls, and it's not a contest. Both of those games are VASTLY better than Zelda, and the attention to detail far surpasses what you see in Zelda. If we go backwards, I already said Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night are much more deserving of the GOAT title, as they're simply better designed games in terms of level design, progression, combat, etc... OoT, can be very clumsy with its combat, and the puzzles are not too challenging, and oftentimes a bit dull. The level design is very simplistic compared to its predecesor, LttP, the jump to 3D had an impact on the level design in a rather negative way. And honestly, it has nothing to do with the limitations of 3D space, as FromSoft has shown us that Metroid-like level design is indeed possible in modern 3D titles, yet Nintendo has been unable to replicate the complexity of dungeon design found in Link's Awakening and LttP since then. And then you have games which are chock full of extra content and replayability like TWEWY, showing us what a perfectly polished game looks like. One in which all of the mechanics are carefully thought out and flow seamlessly.


Anyway, to everyone who answered this Question, what are your top 10 games?

These are mine:

View attachment 122768

At 11 I'd put Halo 3, and at 12 I'd put Majora's Mask. 13 would probably be Metroid Prime Trilogy, 14 Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate, and from there it's really hard to kinda pin things down, as too many titles crop up.

SM has brilliant level design in that it TEACHES you how to play the game without any tutorials, and has maze-like levels that loop back around on themselves perfectly, and stack up in difficulty just right to keep the player engaged. In order to appreciate SM, you have to like non-linear games, and pay a lot of attention to the minor details and level design. It's not a game you can speed through unless you know what you're doing.

Well that's the thing. I tend to prefer linear games over non-linear ones. None of the Metroid games come off as "brilliant" to me and I end up losing interest about half an hour through the game. Like I said the series is most likely not for me and I acknowledge there has to be a reason for the series critical acclaim to be what it is today.

Not at all.

LttP beats OoT in terms of dungeon design, and content. It's also less "hand holdy" than OoT. OoT often tells you where to go blatantly, thanks to Navi, wheras LttP is a lot more cryptic, forcing the player to think and figure out where to go next on their own.

Also, the first three dungeons in OoT are nothing short of garbage. The reason OoT imo doesn't rank that highly is cause of its slow start. The first three dungeons can all be beat in less than 2 hours. I remember they each took me about 15 min a piece in my most recent playthrough, and this is after 10 years since I last played OoT. Which then leaves you with 5 dungeons in OoT not counting the side dungeons. Now, the 5 main dungeons are all REALLY REALLY good, but they don't quite stack up to the ones in LttP tbh, and LttP still has more overall. Watch the Boss Keys series on YT to get a more thorough breakdown on this.

I disagree.

I mean yeah ALTTP's dungeons are really fun to play and the gameplay in that game is much more fluid than OoT though OoT had it's share of very fun dungeons that were for the most part unique from each other. I disagree with you saying the first 3 dungeons were garbage because I played them and loved them all. I guess maybe Great Deku Tree can be criticized as a dungeon but that's essentially the level to get players introduced to the game so i'll cut it some slack. If you want to criticize any game for being slow it should be TP because OoT does a great job with it's pacing IMO. Also want to add that OoT's dungeons are much more memorable and noteworthy VS ALTTP. I can't even remember half of the places in ALTTP where as I remember every dungeon in OoT.

I'll also add that ALTTP doesn't really leave you with a whole lot once you complete the game. It's story was all over the place and just there quite frankly. OoT made you feel apart of the world and you feel Link's hardships throughout the game (i.e. having to leave the Forest; a place he thought was his home, failing to live up to his promise to Zelda by having all the events pre-time skip happening, the revelation that he has knowing that in his absence in the 7 years Ganondorf came to power and turned the world inside out) and then the very bittersweet moment at the end of the game where Link is sent back in time only for the world to never know of his heroic deeds. You feel for Link in OoT where as ALTTP your just sorta going places til' you beat the boss.

There is a subjective side to it, but there are criteria for which to gague the quality and design of a game, and compare it to others. This is why game critics exist.

That's not to say you can't enjoy something with poor reviews, but it also doesn't mean that there aren't objective criteria.

Yeah sure, objective criteria exists but there is no such thing as a definitive "best game ever". Every game out there has it's flaws and depending on one's taste one will find the "best game ever" to be different from what someone else thinks is the best.

MM is rated highly because of its sidequests and the attention to detail to Clock Town.

The side quests in MM are some of the best designed in all of gaming, both from a gameplay standopoint in intricacy and uniqueness, as well as narrative, as they all add more depth to the world.

It has less to do with it being "dark" as it has to do with the atmosphere and mood of the game fitting well with all its other aspects. It's a game with very tight and polished focus. I've still yet to come across a game with as good sidequests as MM.

MM basically accomplishes what I criticized XCX of being unable to do. Despite being much smaller, the world of Termina is much richer, and feels more alive than the massive continents of Mira.

Never ended up being that way for me because I honestly didn't care about most of the sidequests. Most of them were along the lines of "do this and get the mask" and all that jazz. I like MM and all but the fact that people bring up NPC interaction for why the game is a masterpiece is comical to me because that's essentially "icing on the cake" for any game.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

If I did become Premium, I don't know if I'd change my name or not. If I wanted to, I wouldn't know what to change it to.

 

[Knight Dude]

This.

Like the Souls series, it's not for everyone. But its brilliance and greatness are objectively undeniable.


Mah *****.


I doubt that will ever happen seriously. SS is a legit mediocre game. It's got its high points, but it's also got very critical flaws that can only be overlooked by people who haven't played other Zelda games. Plus, BotW seems to be set to break that dumb cycle anyway.


My fave was the Air Force General.

I usually don't import games, but when I saw that you could have DBZ and YuYu Hakusho characters in an arena fighter, I had to get it. It was also the 2nd time I saw JoJo stuff, aside from the Capcom game. It ended up being the only DS game I played until I got Pokemon White.

I don't think we will. Opinions on Twilight Princess aren't really much different than they where, say, five years ago. Even after the remake.

Wind Waker seems to be in an odd position though as it seems that those who love or despise the game seem to continuously try to out-vocal each in regards to their love/hate of that game these days....

I like Wind Waker, but some treat it as the Holy Grail of the series. It sucks that some of it's Dungeons were handed off either to Phantom Hourglass or Twilight Princess. It had the best characterization for Ganondorf though. Still, I don't know if I'd call it a bad game, just one that should've been a bit better.

Twilight Princess is the other Zelda game I like quite a bit, but it's bogged down by a rather boring start, as opposed to Wind Waker, which starts off strong, but has a rather dead middle, despite involving exploration. But TP has the coolest looking Ganon and Zelda, and some of my favorite Dungeons. Though despite me liking the game a lot, I'm not too big on Midna, she's kind of a douche at first.

I'm a fan of both art styles though.

 

[Erureido]

Turns out a certain story element actually has official art from Sun and Moon. I'm enclosing it in a spoilers tag since it's a pretty big spoiler from the game:

Spoiler: S/M Story spoiler

Here is Beast Lusamine's official art, straight from the Japanese official strategy guide:

Looks pretty good. It seems like Sugimori drew this specific art of Lusamine compared to her other official art, if the shading and the outlines are anything to go by.

And that's not the only official art left:

Spoiler: S/M Story spoiler

Here are Kahili and Ryuki's official arts, both from the Japanese official strategy guide.

Is it just me, or does Kahili's eyes look bigger in her official art than her in-game sprite? She still looks cool though.

Ryuki's is nice too.

 

[wedl!!]

• Bayonetta 1/2
• Bloodborne
• Super Metroid/MP
• Marvel vs Capcom 2
• Dota 2
• Soul Calibur II
• Okami
• MGS2/MGR:R
• SMB3/World
• Kirby Super Star
• Demon's Souls/DS1
• Mario 64/Galaxy 1 and 2
• DMC 1/3/4
• TF2
• RE4/HD 1
• Eternal Darkness
• FF7
• Symphony of the Night
• SFIII: Third Strike

Vague order to this.

 

[Mythra]

Turns out a certain story element actually has official art from Sun and Moon. I'm enclosing it in a spoilers tag since it's a pretty big spoiler from the game:

Spoiler: S/M Story spoiler

Here is Beast Lusamine's official art, straight from the Japanese official strategy guide:

Looks pretty good. It seems like Sugimori drew this specific art of Lusamine compared to her other official art, if the shading and the outlines are anything to go by.

And that's the only official art left:

Spoiler: S/M Story spoiler

Here are Kahili and Ryuki's official arts, both from the Japanese official strategy guide.

Is it just me, or does Kahili's eyes look bigger in her official art than her in-game sprite? She still looks cool though.

Ryuki's is nice too.

Spoiler

Kahili looks like your typical rich (well, that's true) and spoiled girl; but you can't talk **** of her because she can wreck you with a golf club or a pissed toucan.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, I play a lot of comparatively unconventional games.

Pshhh, you're not a true hipster until you've beaten all 4 routes in Sengoku Rance, and conquered all of JAPAN.

I'm not sure if this truly is my top 10, but...

Super Mario Bros 3
Pokemon SM or Pokemon HGSS (SM was my favorite but I'd rather play the most current version)
Warcraft 3/ Warcraft 2 (I probably played 3 more and love it for it's map editor but I have nostalgia for WC2
Red Alert 2 /Yuri's Revenge!
Spore
Minecraft
Halo, either 1,2 or Reach
Team Fortress 2
Donkey Kong Country 2
Chrono Trigger, one of the FF, or Dragon Quest 8/9 for the last slot

DKC2 and Chrono Trigger are games I'd totally place in my top 20, it's just hard to knock out any of my top 10 spots.

I also tried to avoid mods, but if I were to include them, Project M, and the BlazeBlack 2 and VoltWhite 2 romhacks would be on there. The GenV romhacks are the best Pokemon will ever be.

"Deserve" is a pretty tricky word. There's a lot of things where I feel as though reverence gets in the way of basic respect for other humans or proceeds to flood conversation to the point of being overwhelming once it's fandom kicks into hype mode. Super Metroid, Donkey Kong Country, Sonic 3&K, Pokemon RBY, and Super Smash Bros Melee are examples of the former, Zelda, Mario, and Undertale are examples of the latter. Pokemon is probably admittedly an example of the latter as well, although I don't notice it as much due to actually being a fan.

That's fair, but I'd say hype only plays into modern games. And nostalgia into older games.

That said, its already been pointed out how Super Metroid is objectively brilliant when looking at its games design, and in the case of Melee, it's easy to see how it's far superior to the games which came after it when comparing the skill ceilings as well as the mechanics side by side.

Sure, some people might LIKE Brawl and 4 more than Melee, but it's undeniable than Melee has the better mechanics, as its meta has stood the test of time far longer than any other game ever really, and without ANY balance patches, which 4 did need various times.

Reviewers are also a bit easy to skew since they can be paid off, and reviewers are no less opinionated and subjective than any other human beings. To assume that some reviewers won't let their personal bias get in the way of measuring objective points is perhaps unfortunately assuming too much out of the human species.

Reviews and critics are two different things imo. Personally, I don't trust most reviewers unless they are someone who are able to defend their opinion critically, and even still, know they are susceptible to taste. People like say Razorfist or Yahtzee are just about the only reviewers I truly do trust. Their job however is to rate the "fun factor" of a game, and are as such, ALWAYS subjective.

Critics and Analysts on the other hand, don't so much focus on telling you whether a game is good or bad, but rather in dissecting the game mechanics of a game, and showing the brilliance or failure in design in those games. They're really more like people who have studied game design, and can see the building blocks that make a game and show what works and what doesn't and the kind of thought that was put into making the game. These sorts of analyses are purely objective, as they break down the game to its smallest forms, and what specific elements are well designed, and which are not.

An example of this is Matthewmatosis:
https://www.youtube.com/user/Matthewmatosis

What exactly is your stance on games such as Earthbound that reviewed poorly upon release but proceeded to develop large amounts of appreciation later on, may I ask?

A lot of my favorite games are massively underrated. Sengoku Rance for example is an obscure Hentai game made by a small Japanese studio that no one except 4chan has really heard of. That said, I certainly wouldn't rate Rance among the greatest games ever made, as it does have its fair share of flaws (I would rate it far higher than any game in the Fire Emblem franchise however), that keep it from being objectively great. That still doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game for what it is. Another example are Vanillaware games. They're fairly small budget, and kinda repetitive. Still though, I accept them for what they are, and love the hell out of them despite their flaws.

Still, when gamers unanimously rank something as "the greatest of all time" you're no longer getting into subjective category, this is now something that needs to be objectively qualifiable, otherwise, if so many people are clamoring it, and it's not quite true, then that's certainly something you can say is "overrated."

Also, I've never played Earthbound, and would argue that JRPGs are something that are very hard to rate, as they are very story driven, and thus, the level of writing is oftentimes more important than the level design itself.

 

[Aetheri]

Question:

Would you say the Zelda series is massively overrated? Y/N?

I don't mean to say the Zelda series is "bad" persay, because it's certainly not. In fact, I'd say there are no "bad" Zelda games, only mediocre ones (in reference to the DS ones, the spinoffs, and SS).

Reason I ask is cause the Zelda series is heralded by most gamers as "gaming's finest" with OoT getting tossed around as the greatest game ever made (alongside FFVII). Personally, I'd say neither of those is truly deserving of that title, purely from a game design standpoint, both are very flawed games, even for their time (I'd personally give it to Castlevania Symphony of the Night, or Super Metroid). Good games, but flawed nonetheless.

It's just, I recently played through most of the Zelda series back to back on my 3DS a few months ago, especially the big hitters like OoT, LttP, the Oracles, MM, Link's Awakening, Minish Cap, etc... and while they were all great games, with many highs and lows, and I enjoyed myself with them at many points, I also felt many were lacking in many areas in one way or another, and in many cases, upon reaching the final dungeon, I really didn't have much drive to really push toward the end. Normally I try to be honest with myself when playing games, and if I don't feel like pushing onward due to the game no longer being gripping, I don't try to force myself to finish out of a "sense of accomplishment" on the contrary, I believe it's the game's responsibility to keep me enthralled to the very end, and keep me wanting more, as I have played games that have done that to me.

I think the Zelda series has been massively influential on the industry, and it deserves a lot of credit for that, however, the games themselves... I really wouldn't rate them as highly as most people do tbh. Not after giving most of them a replay, and really getting a taste for them without any nostalgia goggles. I'd personally rate other series like Souls, or Metroid, or Castlevania as being much more deserving of the prestige given to the Zelda series. In fact, if you were to ask me to me a list of my top 10 favorite games, I'm not sure if I would have room to include a Zelda game in there, and if I did, it'd me Majora's Mask, the black sheep of the franchise. I'd say the Zelda series is very influential overall, and has a lot of untapped potential actually, but I can name at least a dozen games all much better designed than any Zelda game, and many other series which I'd say are overall better.

Your thoughts on this?

You could make the argument that any series that is just as heralded is overrated....

The term 'Overrated' is more often than not used as a means to de-value something rather than actually see it for what it is...I always feel like it's nothing more than a highly opinionated term because a lot of people could very easily say something is overrated if it's popular...while others won't think so, and not just because of bias...

With that said, Zelda as a game series is indeed massively influential to gaming, though it hasn't quite made as big of an impact in gaming world as it did back in the days of OoT...But as we can see with the huge stampede of Zelda fans at this last e3, Zelda is a franchise that can still excite people...And even though every game has it's issues, sometimes very obvious issues, Zelda is probably one of the most consistent franchises especially for one that has titles being released annually (counting spin-offs, remakes, and remasters mind you)...

Do I think it's overrated? I mean, I could jump the gun as a fan of the series and simply say no it isn't. Perhaps it's bias, but at the same time I'm a fan for a reason...
But at the same time I don't think it's popularity and acclaim is unwarranted...As I mentioned just look at the hype building around Breath of the Wild and the possible future of the series after should it do well on the market, which it likely will...

 

[Knight Dude]

• Bayonetta 1/2
• Bloodborne
• Super Metroid/MP
• Marvel vs Capcom 2
• Dota 2
• Soul Calibur II
• Okami
• MGS2/MGR:R
• SMB3/World
• Kirby Super Star
• Demon's Souls/DS1
• Mario 64/Galaxy 1 and 2
• DMC 1/3/4
• TF2
• RE4/HD 1
• Eternal Darkness
• FF7
• Symphony of the Night
• SFIII: Third Strike

Vague order to this.

BEHOLD: The man with mostly good taste.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Top 10 since everyone else is trying


10. Spyro 2
9. Halo ODST
8. Super Metroid
7. Team Fortress 2
6. Kingdom Hearts 2 (2.5 if it counts)
5. Metroid Prime
4. Wonderful 101
3. Bravely Second
2. Xenoblade Chronicles
1. Kid Icarus Uprising

Persona 4 COULD get in here but I have yet to beat it so who knows.
This would probably change on any other day you ask like adding Crash Team Racing or FE6

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I don't think we will. Opinions on Twilight Princess aren't really much different than they where, say, five years ago. Even after the remake.

Wind Waker seems to be in an odd position though as it seems that those who love or despise the game seem to continuously try to out-vocal each other in regards to their love/hate of that game these days....

Well my sis likes Skyward Sword, so theres one person. PBG gamer is another

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Just saying the Zelda cycle doesn't go by individual game. It goes by console.

A while back the N64 was heralded as the best console ever. Same with the Dream cast and Playstation. Before that it was the 16 bit consoles.

Now it's the GameCube, PS2 and Xbox and their games.

Soon it will be the Wii, PS3 and 360.

 

[wedl!!]

BEHOLD: The man with mostly good taste.

A) I'm a lady, thanks.

B) Whaddya mean by "mostly"?

 

[Deleted member]

You could make the argument that any series that is just as heralded is overrated....

The term 'Overrated' is more often than not used as a means to de-value something rather than actually see it for what it is...I always feel like it's nothing more than a highly opinionated term because a lot of people could very easily say something is overrated if it's popular...while others won't think so, and not just because of bias...

With that said, Zelda as a game series is indeed massively influential to gaming, though it hasn't quite made as big of an impact in gaming world as it did back in the days of OoT...But as we can see with the huge stampede of Zelda fans at this last e3, Zelda is a franchise that can still excite people...And even though every game has it's issues, sometimes very obvious issues, Zelda is probably one of the most consistent franchises especially for one that has titles being released annually (counting spin-offs, remakes, and remasters mind you)...

Do I think it's overrated? I mean, I could jump the gun as a fan of the series and simply say no it isn't. Perhaps it's bias, but at the same time I'm a fan for a reason...
But at the same time I don't think it's popularity and acclaim is unwarranted...As I mentioned just look at the hype building around Breath of the Wild and the possible future of the series after should it do well on the market, which it likely will...

Well yeah that's for sure.

Funny how that stereotype was flipped around a decade later. It's only been in very recent times where people have been able to view both games in a positive light.


Well that's the thing. I tend to prefer linear games over non-linear ones. None of the Metroid games come off as "brilliant" to me and I end up losing interest about half an hour through the game. Like I said the series is most likely not for me and I acknowledge there has to be a reason for the series critical acclaim to be what it is today.

I disagree.

I mean yeah ALTTP's dungeons are really fun to play and the gameplay in that game is much more fluid than OoT though OoT had it's share of very fun dungeons that were for the most part unique from each other. I disagree with you saying the first 3 dungeons were garbage because I played them and loved them all. I guess maybe Great Deku Tree can be criticized as a dungeon but that's essentially the level to get players introduced to the game so i'll cut it some slack. If you want to criticize any game for being slow it should be TP because OoT does a great job with it's pacing IMO. Also want to add that OoT's dungeons are much more memorable and noteworthy VS ALTTP. I can't even remember half of the places in ALTTP where as I remember every dungeon in OoT.

I'll also add that ALTTP doesn't really leave you with a whole lot once you complete the game. It's story was all over the place and just there quite frankly. OoT made you feel apart of the world and you feel Link's hardships throughout the game (i.e. having to leave the Forest; a place he thought was his home, failing to live up to his promise to Zelda by having all the events pre-time skip happening, the revelation that he has knowing that in his absence in the 7 years Ganondorf came to power and turned the world inside out) and then the very bittersweet moment at the end of the game where Link is sent back in time only for the world to never know of his heroic deeds. You feel for Link in OoT where as ALTTP your just sorta going places til' you beat the boss.

Yeah sure, objective criteria exists but there is no such thing as a definitive "best game ever". Every game out there has it's flaws and depending on one's taste one will find the "best game ever" to be different from what someone else thinks is the best.

Never ended up being that way for me because I honestly didn't care about most of the sidequests. Most of them were along the lines of "do this and get the mask" and all that jazz. I like MM and all but the fact that people bring up NPC interaction for why the game is a masterpiece is comical to me because that's essentially "icing on the cake" for any game.

I'll get to these two tomorrow. I need to get some shut eye.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

B) Whaddya mean by "mostly"?

FF7 over FF6

 

[Champ Gold]

Yeah, but I'm not saying they're bad games.

I'm simply saying the series doesn't deserve to be heralded with such reverence.



SM has brilliant level design in that it TEACHES you how to play the game without any tutorials, and has maze-like levels that loop back around on themselves perfectly, and stack up in difficulty just right to keep the player engaged. In order to appreciate SM, you have to like non-linear games, and pay a lot of attention to the minor details and level design. It's not a game you can speed through unless you know what you're doing.


There is a subjective side to it, but there are criteria for which to gague the quality and design of a game, and compare it to others. This is why game critics exist.

That's not to say you can't enjoy something with poor reviews, but it also doesn't mean that there aren't objective criteria.


Not at all.

LttP beats OoT in terms of dungeon design, and content. It's also less "hand holdy" than OoT. OoT often tells you where to go blatantly, thanks to Navi, wheras LttP is a lot more cryptic, forcing the player to think and figure out where to go next on their own.

Also, the first three dungeons in OoT are nothing short of garbage. The reason OoT imo doesn't rank that highly is cause of its slow start. The first three dungeons can all be beat in less than 2 hours. I remember they each took me about 15 min a piece in my most recent playthrough, and this is after 10 years since I last played OoT. Which then leaves you with 5 dungeons in OoT not counting the side dungeons. Now, the 5 main dungeons are all REALLY REALLY good, but they don't quite stack up to the ones in LttP tbh, and LttP still has more overall. Watch the Boss Keys series on YT to get a more thorough breakdown on this.



Well, like I said. They're definitely groundbreaking games, and deserve a lot of credit. But compared to other games of modern and previous generations, it's hard to justify Zelda as "gaming's finest." And it's got little to do with the deterioration of the series in recent times. Even at its peak, stack up OoT, MM, LttP, any of them, to say Bloodborne, or Dark Souls, and it's not a contest. Both of those games are VASTLY better than Zelda, and the attention to detail far surpasses what you see in Zelda. If we go backwards, I already said Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night are much more deserving of the GOAT title, as they're simply better designed games in terms of level design, progression, combat, etc... OoT, can be very clumsy with its combat, and the puzzles are not too challenging, and oftentimes a bit dull. The level design is very simplistic compared to its predecesor, LttP, the jump to 3D had an impact on the level design in a rather negative way. And honestly, it has nothing to do with the limitations of 3D space, as FromSoft has shown us that Metroid-like level design is indeed possible in modern 3D titles, yet Nintendo has been unable to replicate the complexity of dungeon design found in Link's Awakening and LttP since then. And then you have games which are chock full of extra content and replayability like TWEWY, showing us what a perfectly polished game looks like. One in which all of the mechanics are carefully thought out and flow seamlessly.


Anyway, to everyone who answered this Question, what are your top 10 games?

These are mine:

View attachment 122768

At 11 I'd put Halo 3, and at 12 I'd put Majora's Mask. 13 would probably be Metroid Prime Trilogy, 14 Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate, and from there it's really hard to kinda pin things down, as too many titles crop up.

Pretty simple:

1. Punch Out Wii
2. Sonic 3 & Knuckles
3. Bayonetta
4. Persona 4 Golden
5. Streets of Rage 2
6. Super Smash Bros. for 3DS
7. Ultra Street Fighter 4
8. NBA Jam
9. F-Zero X
10. Megaman Battle Network 3
11. Metal Gear Rising Revengence
12. Mortal Kombat 9
13. Sleeping Dogs
14. Sonic All Star Racing Transformed
15. Puyo Puyo 2
16. Marvel vs Capcom 1
17. Batman Arkham City
18. Super Smash Bros Melee
19. Pokemon Sun
20. Gunstar Heroes

 

[Knight Dude]

Top 10 since everyone else is trying


10. Spyro 2
9. Halo ODST
8. Super Metroid
7. Team Fortress 2
6. Kingdom Hearts 2 (2.5 if it counts)
5. Metroid Prime
4. Wonderful 101
3. Bravely Second
2. Xenoblade Chronicles
1. Kid Icarus Uprising

Persona 4 COULD get in here but I have yet to beat it so who knows.
This would probably change on any other day you ask like adding Crash Team Racing or FE6

Forgot to mention Spyro. Though I've mostly been a fan of the 3rd one. I still enjoy the first two.

Just saying the Zelda cycle doesn't go by individual game. It goes by console.

A while back the N64 was heralded as the best console ever. Same with the Dream cast and Playstation. Before that it was the 16 bit consoles.

Now it's the GameCube, PS2 and Xbox and their games.

Soon it will be the Wii, PS3 and 360.

I can see where you are coming from.

Though on a personal level, I don't know if I could ever see the Wii as a better system than Gamecube or SNES. And PS3's library pales compared to PS2.

A) I'm a lady, thanks.

B) Whaddya mean by "mostly"?

Squeak Squad is the best Kirby.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Oh dang, I didn't include a kirby game

Squeak Squad definitely has the best mechanics, and is super fun

But I'm not a fan of it's story

I might go with Planet Robobot, but probably something like Super Star

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I cant say I like any kirby games anymore tbh

 

[Aetheri]

My Top 10
This may not be as accurate as it really is, but eh.

10-Pokemon Crystal
9-Xenoblade Chronicles X
8-Super Smash Bros for Wii U
7-Legend of Zelda Wind Waker
6-Final Fantasy VII
5-Metroid Prime 2 Echoes
4-Pokemon Sun/Moon
3-Super Metroid
2-Legend of Zelda Twilight Princess
1-Metroid Prime

I can already tell that BotW will make a strong push for Number 1 or 2 but I'll have to actually play it first, we will see.
Also, I think I decided Pokemon Sun and Moon is my favourite Pokemon game though. So naturally it will rank highly.

 

[Knight Dude]

What about character designs? What are some of your favorites or least favorites?

 

[Opossum]

So I found out something about Sun and Moon that just makes me laugh. A certain Pokémon randomly got a new signature move.

The move Fire Lash is a pretty neat move. It's a Base 80 power physical Fire move that has a guarantee of lowering the foe's defense.

...and it's only learned by Heatmor.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not mad. I actually really like Heatmor but never used one since it's outclassed by nearly everything, so this might get me to at least try him out. I just wish he wasn't so frail...and slow. It just feels so random that they decided to give a new move only to Heatmor, who isn't even catchable in Sun and Moon.

 

[Champ Gold]

Super Star is still the best Kirby game because Its the total package.

However Planet Robobot looks like it can over top it

 

[Curious Villager]

I like Wind Waker, but some treat it as the Holy Grail of the series. It sucks that some of it's Dungeons were handed off either to Phantom Hourglass or Twilight Princess. It had the best characterization for Ganondorf though. Still, I don't know if I'd call it a bad game, just one that should've been a bit better.

Twilight Princess is the other Zelda game I like quite a bit, but it's bogged down by a rather boring start, as opposed to Wind Waker, which starts off strong, but has a rather dead middle, despite involving exploration. But TP has the coolest looking Ganon and Zelda, and some of my favorite Dungeons. Though despite me liking the game a lot, I'm not too big on Midna, she's kind of a douche at first.

I'm a fan of both art styles though.

I actually enjoyed Wind Waker a lot and it's my personal favourite entry in the whole series and is what brought me into the Zelda franchise along with Minish Cap and a Link to the Past.

So there may or may not be bias on my part, but personally, I don't really think fans of Wind Waker are much different than fans of other Zelda games such as Ocarina of Time or Twilight Princess etc. Most fans of Wind Waker I've met got into or grew up with the game as one of their first entries to the Zelda franchise and came to enjoy its world, story and characters it had to offer. Likewise I hear similar stories when it comes to certain other Zelda games such as Ocarina of Time.

While I agree that the game could have gotten another dungeon or two and perhaps a bit more things to do on the sea. I do still enjoy the game a lot for what it is, and heck, I'm one of the rare few who actually enjoyed sailing the great sea as I liked the sense of going on a journey it offered that I didn't really get with most other Zelda games and is part of the reason why I'm really looking forward to Breath of the Wild.

Twilight Princess on the other hand, wasn't really my cup of tea though. I wasn't really much of a fan of the Wolf mechanic and the world felt a bit more empty to me despite how big it was (Although I guess I should commend the HD remake for the inclusion of stamps, giving a bit more reason to explore). Its world and characters didn't really do much either for me though, other than I guess Midna.

I will credit the game for bringing in some fun items though, even though some of them pretty much become useless after the dungeon their found in....

Overall, I think everyone just has different tastes in regards to which entries they enjoy and perhaps also which ones they first got introduced with or impacted them the most may also pave the way to how their view the series as a whole.

Well my sis likes Skyward Sword, so theres one person. PBG gamer is another

I mean, I'm not saying that everyone dislikes the game, I personally thought it was alright myself. Just the general consensus might not change much.

I mean heck, I've met many fans who also really enjoyed the DS Zelda's.

 

[Kurri ★]

I don't know how people can make top 10 lists of anything. One moment one thing is in my list, the next moment there's another.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I mean, I'm not saying that everyone dislikes the game, I personally thought it was alright myself. Just the general consensus might not change much.

I mean heck, I've met many fans who also really enjoyed the DS Zelda's.

Oh I remeber I rented Spirit Tracks and Im so pissed I didnt buy it. I played it all the time when I had it

 

[Coricus]

What about character designs? What are some of your favorites or least favorites?

I think as a general rule I like characters that strike a balance between cute and cool. Too much of one without the other doesn't fit as well with me unless their personality provides enough of a balance to tip it back in the other direction and make it work. Sonic, Mega man, Pit, Kirby, etc. are some ones I like.

Least favorites. . .when something is purposely made to be disgusting and hideous that's the worst. But in terms of things not meant as such I'd say Sackboy followed at some distance by Rare designed characters are some of my least favorites.