Nightmares of the Knee

[DippnDots]

Imagine captain falcon at 140% and ganon at 160% on poke stadium. Both characters are at opposite ends of the stage. Captain Falcon decides to shuffle a knee. Ganon decides to...?


I thought you were supposed to insert an angled f-tilt there, but apparently you can still get hit by his knee. Anyone have advice on how to react when you know falcon is going to throw a knee at you?

 

[Red.]

would ganons DA or fair work?

 

[Betrayed]

Sidestep? Jab?

Mindgames?

If he grabs you then it's pretty much over =/. I know as a Falcon player than I would be being defensive and dash dancing everywhere trying to get my grab in.

 

[DippnDots]

fair will result in either a clank or both of you getting hit. DA? dair? Doesn't work...

Jab won't work, you'll both get hit. if I sidestep he usually lands, turns around and ftilts me, or turns around and jabs me into a gentleman.

I'm hoping that I'm just off on my timing and that I'm actually not this hopeless in the match up.


mindgames? No ****, are you going to tell me to breathe next?

 

[Red.]

Is there anything he can do? what about nair, reverse uair?

 

[Betrayed]

There's not much you CAN do against a smart Falcon in a scenario like this. If I was playing Ganon, I'd go for the backairs and hope I hit him before he hit me, because if we BOTH hit then I'd (as Ganon) would die first.

With that said, I have never mained Ganon and very rarely play him. I'm only speaking from a Falcons point of view.

 

[DippnDots]

True, bair seems like something to try. I think a reverse uair might do the trick also, to knock him out of the knee at least, not to kill him. If you hit him with the tip of it as it swings around into the ground. What i'm trying to find out is if there's something that will avoid the hitbox of the knee and also hit falcon >_>


The only problem with the uair is i dont think you'd have enough time to do it.

 

[Betrayed]

Uair seems painfully slow in this scenario. As a Falcon player, I would wait for an opening between them and knee you, or get up under you with uairs or just go in with the nairs. I might also try grabbing you on your landing.

Double Bairs seem overall faster and makes me rethink my approach. However their short range would leave me open to a well-spaced nair.

 

[CluelessBTD]

You can't just throw an attack with Ganon and wait for Falcon to jump into it, because a smart falcon will just wait for it and punish, because he is so f***ing fast. He will get just close enough to scare you into attacking the air, and then get ya with the knee.

What I do in this scenario, is go for the edge. Just infinite stall right there until he gets impatient and tries to come after you. He will most likely try to bait you into rolling up by SHFFLing knees and stomps right on the edge. This is where I wait till he least expects it, then ledgedash and Fsmash right in his spine. At the percentage you mentioned, I think this would normally kill. Or, to be less flashy and safe, just Ftilt and then Uair edgeguard.

 

[Magus420]

Dash-retreat c-sticked SHFF autocancel b-air if you expect them to come in. If they don't it's not really punishable anyway. In fact, use it a LOT in general against CF imo.

 

[Pyrostormer]

This may sound stupid but... UpB. It out-prioritizes The Knee. And it has pretty far knockback at that kind of damage and you can easily kill him.

 

[CluelessBTD]

This may sound stupid but... UpB. It out-prioritizes The Knee. And it has pretty far knockback at that kind of damage and you can easily kill him.

What? Do you wanna die? You've gotta have really good timing, and for most, that would be too risky. Also, he wouldn't always die at pokemon stadium

 

[Pyrostormer]

What? Do you wanna die? You've gotta have really good timing, and for most, that would be too risky. Also, he wouldn't always die at pokemon stadium

UpB out of Shield to be safe. You don't really have to have good timing, necessarily, just have to know how they're going to approach.

 

[KIngGerudo]

im just saying this but, against a good Falcon, this is almost unheard of. back on topic, i would shield grab. no way he can knee--> dodge the grab. as Magus said, retreating bairs would also work nicely.

 

[Kio Iranez]

im just saying this but, against a good Falcon, this is almost unheard of. back on topic, i would shield grab. no way he can knee--> dodge the grab. as Magus said, retreating bairs would also work nicely.

Shieldgrab ftw. Also, if you do this at the end of the stage, just throw them off and bair their recovery.

 

[CluelessBTD]

UpB out of Shield to be safe. You don't really have to have good timing, necessarily, just have to know how they're going to approach.

You basically just said you have to know their approach so you can TIME your attack properly. Remember, if you miss, you're dead. The end. The impact will be so enormous that you will fly off your control, slam into the wall, burst into a beam of light, then reappear on a magical platform from overhead. It's a neat trick.

 

[linkmastersword]

run off the level as they approach, jump back on to wave land off, then jump back on with a bair. its a good little mind game and usually its hard to punish cuz falcons grab range, like ganons, is crap

 

[KIngGerudo]

cuz falcons grab range, like ganons, is crap

hold the phone or whatever else you can hold. they do get grab boxes behind them so i dont think thats crap. they might not have marth grab range or samus but they are a few of the "realistic" characters. not everything has to be disjointed.

 

[linkmastersword]

hahahahah, true. it is nice having that reverse grab range. That'll teach you not to dash attack in to my sheild when my back is facing you!

 

[DippnDots]

run off the level as they approach, jump back on to wave land off, then jump back on with a bair. its a good little mind game and usually its hard to punish cuz falcons grab range, like ganons, is crap

A samus main, who plays with us, and I do this quite a bit when near the edge, but i never thought of using it in this case.


Also, can anyone explain what the difference is between an l-cancel and an auto cancel? (referring to magus' post)


As for the upB, I have to get that down now >_>. I love killing people with the upB. Sometimes in friendlies i'll jump off the stage and try to knock people back out with it.


And yeah, normally he doesn't let my percent get that high. But sometimes it happens, and after a really intense game, it pissed me off quite a bit that I saw the knee coming and still got hit by it. Due to the fact that this falcon player lives about 30 minutes away, I can't just go over and play him and try new things till something works. I see him once a week usually so we like to have serious games.

@clueless, waveland from an edgehop so you get behind them, then ftilt or fsmash? That's real classy (no sarcasm).



So thanks guys, I apparently have 4 options, this should be sufficient. Feel free to continue talking if you want though.

 

[Red Exodus]

Wouldn't a SHFFLed nair have enough range to knock Falcon back? I don't know how much priority it has, I figure it's decent.

 

[KIngGerudo]

Wouldn't a SHFFLed nair have enough range to knock Falcon back? I don't know how much priority it has, I figure it's decent.

it would most likely end in a trade off, meaning you would die and the most that would happen to the falcon would be him popping upwards from the nair.

I thought about this just now. Theres no way the falcon would just rush in blindly. He would need to think fast. Why not wait it out til a more desired stage on stadium comes up. At worst, you could get the grass level meaning you get to move just as fast as the falcon due to the platforms. The water level could be a problem; the platforms are spaced so ganons movements are limited but this also can be used to your advantage. the low problems are low enough to possibly mess up CF's shffl game. The rock level is as good as it can get. falcons game couldnt be perfect ( unfortuanantly SS is in norcal so no strats for me =\) so going inside of the middle of the stage is the best for you. easy way to kill him would be a uair when he is coming from above.

 

[knightpraetor]

what do you mean no way falcon can avoid a shieldgrab after a knee..i'm not a falcon main but i thought for sure that the knee adds enough shield stun that you can roll away before they can get the grab out..granted..you could just wd after it and punish if you call it...but anyways, correct me if i'm wrong...

will you have time to grab before the roll starts..he only needs 3 frames from the time his L-cancel lag ends...assuming he shffles it low and you have shield stun i think he escapes..

 

[krndandaman]

Press B and time it perfectly so Falcon knees into your epic game-ending punch.

 

[Magus420]

An autocancel is when after an aerial you go into the regular landing animation like you would landing from the air without doing an attack, instead of going into that attack's landing lag animation that you can cut in half by l-cancelling. Aerials have varying windows where if you land beyond a certain point until the normal end of the attack it'll autocancel.

The b-air doesn't weaken while it's out and has a good duration which can hit as late as the 15th, and it will autocancel if you land on the 19th or later. Basically, an easy way is if you b-air just after leaving the ground from a shorthop and then fastfall at the earliest time you'll land right around the soonest possible autocancel, keeping the time between the end of the attack and landing as small as possible. If you time it right it cuts the downtime between when it hits last and your next move by 1/3 compared to l-cancelling. With that, good range/duration, and by retreating it it's a great way of hitting people out of an approach while still being safe for the most part regardless of whether it whiffs.

 

[linkmastersword]

a very important manuever against sheik I'd say

 

[CluelessBTD]

Wouldn't a SHFFLed nair have enough range to knock Falcon back? I don't know how much priority it has, I figure it's decent.

Yes, Falcons don't spam Nair on me much, because Ganon's Nair does outrange it, you just have to know exactly when to time it. It really disheartens poor little falcon when he realizes that his most spammed attack has been rendered useless.

Another little trick that I have found works more often than it should is this:
as Falcon is DDing in place trying to be confusing, just walk away at medium speed. He will likely try to run after you with a knee (because you appear slow and helpless, just walking as if you've given up), but as soon as you see this guy fly, do a reverse Fsmash. The pullback will avoid his attack, and then the smash will either clash with falcon, or my favorite, own him. Be weary though, because this technique should only be used to hurt his feelings. Don't do this if you don't already expect to win, cuz it is just for fun.

 

[Linguini]

All of ganons attacks can outprioritize falcons, You just need to be able to predict when its coming and all can be stopped. Simply throwing out attacks in this situation woukd not be a good idea. Lure the falcon in with empty jumps or dashdances, retreating bairs is the best option.

 

[DippnDots]

You can't just throw an attack with Ganon and wait for Falcon to jump into it, because a smart falcon will just wait for it and punish, because he is so f***ing fast. He will get just close enough to scare you into attacking the air, and then get ya with the knee.

All of ganons attacks can outprioritize falcons, You just need to be able to predict when its coming and all can be stopped. Simply throwing out attacks in this situation woukd not be a good idea. Lure the falcon in with empty jumps or dashdances, retreating bairs is the best option.

Never said anything about throwing out random attacks and hoping something works as a strategy. At least, not in the sense that you two are taking it. He's already coming in at me, I can time my attacks, so now I'm asking which attack will out prioritize his knee. Earlier when I said I would try a bunch of different **** in this situation, I meant that I would try many attacks to see which ones out prioritize him.

But thank you for the advice on how to instead of getting through this situation, avoid it completely.

 

[Mars-]

I personally like to stay out of the way and when they are about to land down b. Or I guess you could shield grab up throw up air or something.