Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Oracle Link]

Smash ain't bigger than Mario Kart.

Games I expect to sell at $80:
Mario Kart
Smash Bros.
Next Gen Pokemon games
Mainline Zelda
3D Mario
Animal Crossing
Splatoon 4

No way in hell they price top down zeldas at 80!
Like they are really unpopular/ignored even more then 2d mario!
But they are still mainline! Every game with "The Legend of Zelda" in the title is in fact Mainline!

 

[HyperSomari64]

Technically unrelated, but the fan game platform fighter Mega Man Arena has released their final trailer before the release of the 4.0 version

Those robot masters are such goobers

Anything Mega Man-related you wanna see in the next Smash? (aside of playable characters)

 

[dream1ng]

Again, if they're comfortable charging $80 for a Mario Party port, I don't think there's any kind of game that was previously $60 that would truly be off the table for $80. Which really sucks.

After Z-A, I would be especially shocked if any of their AAA stuff isn't $80.

Suffice to say, I'm not in a rush to get the system, and I'm gonna be much more selective about which games I pick up.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

No way in hell they price top down zeldas at 80!
Like they are really unpopular/ignored even more then 2d mario!

“Ignored” and “unpopular” are very strong words, given how much praise A Link to the Past gets on a frequent basis by fans.

Sure, they don’t bring in 3D Zelda numbers of sales but 2D Zelda still does pretty well and is still enjoyed by those who play it.

But they are still mainline! Every game with "The Legend of Zelda" in the title is in fact Mainline!

LET’S ****ING GOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

[Noipoi]

Mainline Pokemon is gonna be $80 and I’m gonna be outraged and I’m still gonna buy it.

I’ve devoted myself to catching them all. This is my burden to bear.

 

[Kirbeh]

Mainline Pokemon is gonna be $80 and I’m gonna be outraged and I’m still gonna buy it.

I’ve devoted myself to catching them all. This is my burden to bear.

Mainline Pokemon is going to be priced at $151.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Mainline Pokemon is going to be priced at $151.

$151 price tag next to a "Gotta pay for 'em all" slogan and Meowth making the money gesture with his fingers would make for a hell of a cover.

 

[DarthEnderX]

No way in hell they price top down zeldas at 80!

Top down Zeldas aren't mainline games anymore. Haven't been since OoT.

Every game with "The Legend of Zelda" in the title is in fact Mainline!

Nah son. Games like Spirit Tracks, Four Swords or Echoes of Wisdom ain't mainline.

 

[Oracle Link]

Top down Zeldas aren't mainline games anymore. Haven't been since OoT.

Nah son. Games like Spirit Tracks, Four Swords or Echoes of Wisdom ain't mainline.

??? Nah they are mainline just like 2d mario is mainline!
Games are either mainline (as in one of the normal styles of gameplay for that series)
Or spinoffs who are non canon and or weird alternative gameplay styles!

Again those games are called THE LEGEND OF ZELDA and that title at the beginning means its mainline (granted zelda 2 is mainline too but thats because they originally planned multiple hyrule fantasy series so yeah)

Look at kirby return to dreamland deluxe is mainline eventho its a remake that csme out after a 3d title!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Top down Zeldas aren't mainline games anymore. Haven't been since OoT.

Nah son. Games like Spirit Tracks, Four Swords or Echoes of Wisdom ain't mainline.

Darth.

This is just factually wrong. And people have told you this is wrong before.

Stop saying your opinion of what SHOULD be mainline as a fact.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Or spinoffs who are non canon and or weird alternative gameplay styles!

Lol, no. Canon and mainline have nothing to do with one another. Spinoffs can still be canon.

Persona 4 Arena, the fighting game, is technically canon to the Persona series. It's not a mainline Persona game.

This is just factually wrong. And people have told you this is wrong before.

And I think they're factually wrong. And you know I think they're factually wrong. So why you wasting your time?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think if Nintendo's making the effort to clarify where a game fits in the (admittedly wacky) timeline, then it's pretty fair to say it's mainline.

I think you pretty much have to hit spin-off territory (Tingle games, Crossbow Training, the first Hyrule Warriors title) to not be mainline.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think if Nintendo's making the effort to clarify where a game fits in the (admittedly wacky) timeline, then it's pretty fair to say it's mainline.

No, that just makes it canon.

 

[HyperSomari64]

The Zelda games for the Phillips CD-I will always be canon in my heart.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And I think they're factually wrong. And you know I think they're factually wrong. So why you wasting your time?

Because recent events have taught me that wrong information needs to be actively challenged.

 

[Arcanir]

And I think they're factually wrong. And you know I think they're factually wrong. So why you wasting your time?

Because you keep spouting your headcanon as fact. You can consider them mainline or not all you want, but the fact that neither Nintendo nor the fanbase at large agrees with that should mean it's nothing more than just your opinion at best (ignoring that it's outright wrong) and you shouldn't push it as anything more than that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hell, it gets even weirder; for Pokemon, it has 3 core mainline series(regulars, remakes, Let's Go), and the Legends series as well(I don't remember if it's supposed to be part of the regular or remake universe, though).

Mainline also doesn't equal canon in itself. Sonic has a ton of canon spin-offs(Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Battle, for instance). It's actually about the genre, though that can vary anyway depending upon the Developers. Ultimately, the Developers are the only ones who decide if it's mainline or not. I absolutely think it's really weird that Super Mario Bros. 2: The Lost Levels isn't mainline, but they don't count it(this could be because Super Mario Bros. 2 USA stands out better and the other feels like more of an add-on to Super Mario Bros. instead of a full sequel. General full sequels do tend to heavily change it up a lot more. Even then, The Lost Levels is pretty early in the franchise. ...There's also some idea(I'm not sure how confirmed it is) that Miyamoto dislikes the game, which could also be why).

Though more on the Super Mario front, I've read some fun stuff; The King in the old Super Mario Bros. Movie is named Bowser in the original scripts(after two renames), and outright directly in the Novel. Funnily enough, Bowser in the games became more amicable after the movie was released(the Novel released the same year too). In fact, Super Mario RPG came out quite a bit after too. Another fun thing is Miyamoto legitimately liked the old movie because it didn't try to play it safe overall and did its own thing.

Anyway, Echoes of Wisdom is officially mainline. That's all there is to it. The real question is is if they consider remakes as important as the originals in a similar way that Pokemon does.

 

[Oracle Link]

Hell, it gets even weirder; for Pokemon, it has 3 core mainline series(regulars, remakes, Let's Go), and the Legends series as well(I don't remember if it's supposed to be part of the regular or remake universe, though).

Mainline also doesn't equal canon in itself. Sonic has a ton of canon spin-offs(Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Battle, for instance). It's actually about the genre, though that can vary anyway depending upon the Developers. Ultimately, the Developers are the only ones who decide if it's mainline or not. I absolutely think it's really weird that Super Mario Bros. 2: The Lost Levels isn't mainline, but they don't count it(this could be because Super Mario Bros. 2 USA stands out better and the other feels like more of an add-on to Super Mario Bros. instead of a full sequel. General full sequels do tend to heavily change it up a lot more. Even then, The Lost Levels is pretty early in the franchise. ...There's also some idea(I'm not sure how confirmed it is) that Miyamoto dislikes the game, which could also be why).

Though more on the Super Mario front, I've read some fun stuff; The King in the old Super Mario Bros. Movie is named Bowser in the original scripts(after two renames), and outright directly in the Novel. Funnily enough, Bowser in the games became more amicable after the movie was released(the Novel released the same year too). In fact, Super Mario RPG came out quite a bit after too. Another fun thing is Miyamoto legitimately liked the old movie because it didn't try to play it safe overall and did its own thing.

Anyway, Echoes of Wisdom is officially mainline. That's all there is to it. The real question is is if they consider remakes as important as the originals in a similar way that Pokemon does.

Considering the remakes are just the original designs polished up i guess yes or it doesnt matter!
Remember oot/ mm 3d were based on the artworks, ww and tp hd just polished the graphics and lar remakes both the ingame and artwork look very faithfully!
Unlike in pokemon were in every remake prior to bdsp everyone was drastically redesigned but even then the series uses both designs and has confirmed both og and remake games to be canon in their own universes!

By the way considering Eow features a different protagonist they really couldve changed the title for the zelda zelda games! Something like the adventure of zelda!

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Mainline Pokemon is going to be priced at $151.

While still being compared being at PS1/2 level.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

By the way considering Eow features a different protagonist they really couldve changed the title for the zelda zelda games! Something like the adventure of zelda!

But then this would have given the vibe that it's a spin-off.

I think keeping the usual name is fine because we are actually witnessing the legend of Zelda

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Mainline also doesn't equal canon in itself. Sonic has a ton of canon spin-offs(Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Battle, for instance). It's actually about the genre, though that can vary anyway depending upon the Developers. Ultimately, the Developers are the only ones who decide if it's mainline or not. I absolutely think it's really weird that Super Mario Bros. 2: The Lost Levels isn't mainline, but they don't count it(this could be because Super Mario Bros. 2 USA stands out better and the other feels like more of an add-on to Super Mario Bros. instead of a full sequel. General full sequels do tend to heavily change it up a lot more. Even then, The Lost Levels is pretty early in the franchise. ...There's also some idea(I'm not sure how confirmed it is) that Miyamoto dislikes the game, which could also be why).

The Lost Levels is listed as a mainline in the Japanese website if filtered by the Super Mario Bros category. I think it not being listed in the international versions is because it only released in the west on collections and emulation such as VC and NSO.

The one that is debatable is Yoshi’s Island on the SNES where there are cases where it’s listed as a mainline Mario game like how it was part of the Mario Advance series and mentioned by Miyamoto but not nowadays.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Considering the remakes are just the original designs polished up i guess yes or it doesnt matter!
Remember oot/ mm 3d were based on the artworks, ww and tp hd just polished the graphics and lar remakes both the ingame and artwork look very faithfully!
Unlike in pokemon were in every remake prior to bdsp everyone was drastically redesigned but even then the series uses both designs and has confirmed both og and remake games to be canon in their own universes!

By the way considering Eow features a different protagonist they really couldve changed the title for the zelda zelda games! Something like the adventure of zelda!

Well, MM 3D has completely revamped boss fights, so it's not like OOT which is mostly the same. I was thinking more of Link's Awakening Switch which is clearly its own thing.

The Lost Levels is listed as a mainline in the Japanese website if filtered by the Super Mario Bros category. I think it not being listed in the international versions is because it only released in the west on collections and emulation such as VC and NSO.

The one that is debatable is Yoshi’s Island on the SNES where there are cases where it’s listed as a mainline Mario game like how it was part of the Mario Advance series and mentioned by Miyamoto but not nowadays.

Oh, that makes sense. Does the JP version list 2 USA as well?

Though to be fair, Developers can change their minds. Sometimes the vision they have changed, etc.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Oh, that makes sense. Does the JP version list 2 USA as well?

Yes but it’s after Mario World because the western version of SMB2 released late there but still on the Famicom in 1992. Japan would even get a sequel to that game called BS Super Mario USA for the Satellaview.

My opinion is that Mario doesn’t really have a canon and if it did then the only ones that aren’t are the licensed stuff from the 90s for example.

 

[ninjahmos]

Quoting myself from another thread:

I think Smash could use some more representation of arcade games (Space Invaders, Frogger, Dig Dug, Bubble Bobble, Gauntlet, Final Fight, Golden Axe, OutRun, Daytona USA, Time Crisis, etc.)

Although, we do already have quite a few arcade characters in Smash (Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Little Mac, PAC-MAN, Ryu, Ken, Terry and Kazuya)

 

[DarthEnderX]

Because recent events have taught me that wrong information needs to be actively challenged.

Well have fun with that. I ain't changin' my tune.

Because you keep spouting your headcanon as fact.

Because it is, by the accepted definition of "mainline game" in video game parlance.

That terminology doesn't change just because Nintendo decides to call its spinoff entries "mainline" in a transparent marketing attempt to inflate their importance and boost sales.

If you think Triforce Heroes is a mainline Zelda game, you're wrong. If Nintendo says Triforce Heroes is a mainline Zelda game, they're lying.

Because that's not what mainline game means. And the meaning doesn't change just cause Nintendo wants it to. They don't decide how vernacular is used.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Nah son. Games like Spirit Tracks, Four Swords or Echoes of Wisdom ain't mainline.

I would be willing to agree on Four Swords being a canon spin-off. Certainly helps that it came packaged with a GBA port of A Link to the Past too.

Same for FSA and TriForce Heroes despite being standalone games. Primarly multiplayer games on a series famous for single-player adventures definitely scream "spin-off"

But Spirit Tracks and Echoes of Wisdom? Yeah no, how the **** are these not mainline?

 

[DarthEnderX]

I love that Nintendo did this:

Goddamn...that SNES lineup.

 

[Arcanir]

Well have fun with that. I ain't changin' my tune.

Because it is, by the accepted definition of "mainline game" in video game parlance.

That terminology doesn't change just because Nintendo decides to call its spinoff entries "mainline" in a transparent marketing attempt to inflate their importance and boost sales.

If you think Triforce Heroes is a mainline Zelda game, you're wrong. If Nintendo says Triforce Heroes is a mainline Zelda game, they're lying.

Because that's not what mainline game means. And the meaning doesn't change just cause Nintendo wants it to. They don't decide how vernacular is used.

If you were just talking about games like Triforce Heroes maybe you'd have a point, but you included games like Spirit Tracks and Echoes of Wisdom on top of all post-OOT top-down Zelda games. Those have no reason to not be considered mainline, especially when mechanically they generally differ little from the blueprint games like ALttP set.

Fundamentally you're ignoring actual facts for your own personal idealogy. You alone don't get to decide what defines mainline or spinoff, especially when it ignores what everyone is telling you.

 

[Oracle Link]

Well, MM 3D has completely revamped boss fights, so it's not like OOT which is mostly the same. I was thinking more of Link's Awakening Switch which is clearly its own thing.


Oh, that makes sense. Does the JP version list 2 USA as well?

Though to be fair, Developers can change their minds. Sometimes the vision they have changed, etc.

I guess some of the monster and area designs are diffrent! We also have dampe!
Link however looks generally the same here are some chibi classic link pictures:

Heres the sprite:

Mix all these together add the colors from the artwork add a dash of gloss and you get him:

Like or dislike this design it is however VERY acurate and faithful!
And obviously you want tiny top down link to look easily readable which this design is!

 

[DarthEnderX]

especially when it ignores what everyone is telling you.

Because everyone is just agreeing with Nintendo. Even though Nintendo is using the term WRONG.

Just because a company says a thing, doesn't make it true. If a company says it's game uses "rollback netcode", when it's actually using delay-based netcode, you don't go, "Oh, well, the company decides what rollback netcode is. So if they say it's rollback, it is." It doesn't work that way. "Rollback netcode" has a specific meaning. And the company doesn't get to decide to change that.

"Mainline game" means something specific. The definition doesn't change just because Nintendo starts calling it's spinoff games mainline. It just makes them wrong. And by extension, the people agreeing with them, just because it's Nintendo, are also wrong.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

"Mainline game" means something specific. The definition doesn't change just because Nintendo starts calling it's spinoff games mainline. It just makes them wrong. And by extension, the people agreeing with them, just because it's Nintendo, are also wrong.

Calling every post-OoT top-down Zelda game a "spin-off", even though the vast majority of them follow the same blueprints as games that came before OoT, is also just as equally wrong.

You might as well call every topdown Zelda a "spin-off" instead of just half of them.

 

[Noipoi]

Because everyone is just agreeing with Nintendo. Even though Nintendo is using the term WRONG.

Just because a company says a thing, doesn't make it true. If a company says it's game uses "rollback netcode", when it's actually using delay-based netcode, you don't go, "Oh, well, the company decides what rollback netcode is. So if they say it's rollback, it is." It doesn't work that way. "Rollback netcode" has a specific meaning. And the company doesn't get to decide to change that.

"Mainline game" means something specific. The definition doesn't change just because Nintendo starts calling it's spinoff games mainline. It just makes them wrong. And by extension, the people agreeing with them, just because it's Nintendo, are also wrong.

Ehhh those are kinda different things.

It’d be one thing if Nintendo said “This game runs at 60 frames!” when it actually runs at 30. That’s a matter of objective fact. We could see that they’re wrong about the frames.

But if they say “We, as the creators of this franchise and arbiters of what’s considered mainline or not, say that this game is part of the mainline series.” Then that’s their call to make. We as fans don’t get to decide that.

Of course you will anyway, but y’know. Just had to throw that out there

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Let's move on.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So, we have four playable characters who were assists at one point.

What do you think of these four characters and their implementation in Smash?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I do think Darth has a case. The problem is that he goes so overkill with it that it becomes nonsensical.

Four Swords, Four Swords Adventures, Triforce Heroes are very Zelda-core, yet their multiplayer focus is unlike anything else the series typically offers for a mainline Zelda. There's a legit good reasoning over calling these spin-offs. Canon spin-offs, but spin-offs nonetheless.

We definitely need to start accepting this idea of "canon spin-offs" either way because unless Nintendo's trolling us with Age of Imprisonment like they did with the previous Hyrule Warriors game, that game is very likely to be canon yet not a single soul here would ever call it mainline.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Mainline The Legend of Zelda has been like mainline Mario for a while now where it's split into two styles. In Zelda's case: Top Down and 3D. Top Down has been relegated to lower budget releases, but I don't think them not being AAA makes them spin-offs.

Also, Echoes of Wisdom is pretty much just top down Breath of the Wild So I don't think it diverges enough to be considered a spin-off.

We definitely need to start accepting this idea of "canon spin-offs" either way because unless Nintendo's trolling us with Age of Imprisonment like they did with the previous Hyrule Warriors game, that game is very likely to be canon yet not a single soul here would ever call it mainline.

This community is full of Kingdom Hearts fans right? I think we know all about cannon spin-offs.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

So, we have four playable characters who were assists at one point.

What do you think of these four characters and their implementation in Smash?

I think Charizard is pretty fine as is.

I think Mac could stand to change his design a bit so he's not like always automatically the worst character in the game, though I doubt that'll happen.

Dark Samus I think was fine as an Echo in Ultimate since I don't think she would've gotten in any other way, but I would like to see a Luigi/Falco style "uncloning" take place.

Isabelle I think I'm in the same position as Dark Samus but to a lesser extent since she has unique tools like the fishing rod and doesn't have the Echo label potentially weighing her down in that department depending on how Echoes are handled moving forward.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

So, we have four playable characters who were assists at one point.

What do you think of these four characters and their implementation in Smash?

Charizard is meant to be decently fast but in Smash, he's a typical slow superheavy so he doesn't feel right. That's an unfortunate consequence of the Pokemon Trainer mechanic because if he wasn't the slowest of the trio, then the other two would be pointless. Also, he lost Rock Smash so 0/10

Little Mac is a very extreme design. Meant to have a ground game yet said ground game is made far less threathening by his godawful grab game, his absolute joke of a recovery, his nonexistent air game and the fact that everyone else loves using aerials, which typically outprioritize grounded moves. He might just be the single worst character design in not just Smash but the entire platform fighter genre, imo. And that's a shame because I was really looking forward to him specifically back in Smash 4.

Dark Samus feels like a big waste of potential. We could've at least had a DOT mechanic to reference Phazon. That would've probably shifted the overall game plan while still being an Echo Fighter.

Isabelle was perfectly fine as an Assist since she literally is an assistant and only got in because she's too popular to be ignored. Outside of the down special and fishing rod, she brings nothing exciting to the table either.

Basically, I don't think they have a good track record. However, correlation is not causation. Their overall design would be the same even if they weren't promoted assists.

 

[AreJay25]

So, we have four playable characters who were assists at one point.

What do you think of these four characters and their implementation in Smash?

Charizard came out pretty solid. I do kinda miss him being his own character like in Smash 4, but I think he coalesces pretty well with the overall design of PT.

Dark Samus is.... an Echo, so that comes with all the pros and cons the label brings. It's cool that she made it into the roster, but I can't help but think about what could have been.

Isabelle is a fine semiclone. Wouldn't hurt if they went out of their way to make her more unique next go around.

Mac... well, his design is cool in theory. But god do I absolutely DESPISE his design in practice. He's easily one of the characters I'd want to see get a complete rework.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Quoting myself from another thread:

River City, Double, Dragon, Ninja Gaiden, and Contra all started in the arcades too. So there's even more series for that.