Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[JOJONumber691]

Personally would prefer Tsukihime go first, mainly for Melty, but I do think that a Fate Character could be fun if done right.

 

[Ivander]

I am waiting for the day that Japanese Law allows Type Moon to use Hitler in Fate. I’m genuinely curious what stupidity that team could come up with for someone as infamous as Hitler.

I mean, I'm pretty sure they could if they wanted to since we've already had series in Japan that straight up have Hitler, like Bionic Commando, the Persona series and that one VN or Manga series that is similar to Clone High. And I'm pretty sure there is some sort of parody manga/vn/etc that has a genderbent Hitler. I just don't think they want to risk that, especially with them having a market in the West. And if Hitler is seen in the Fate series, it most likely will be his real life self, as the Third Grail War in Japan did take place around World War 2.

 

[Sucumbio]

I am waiting for the day that Japanese Law allows Type Moon to use Hitler in Fate. I’m genuinely curious what stupidity that team could come up with for someone as infamous as Hitler.

Like Nero Claudious but actually evil?

 

[Quillion]

Seriously though, I think there's real potential for more water users in Smash and not just reserve that to the Pokémon. A Wave Race character with a smattering of jet ski actions would be perfect for that, but I'd be open to others too. It certainly would be a more versatile niche than having another ninja when we already have Greninja and Sheik if anything.

Also, if they rework ice effects to not have that immobilization thing, they could rework Samus' VFX to be an ice user.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I am waiting for the day that Japanese Law allows Type Moon to use Hitler in Fate. I’m genuinely curious what stupidity that team could come up with for someone as infamous as Hitler.

I'm still waiting the day Kinoko and co. decides to make Queen Elizabeth II a male servant.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I am waiting for the day that Japanese Law allows Type Moon to use Hitler in Fate. I’m genuinely curious what stupidity that team could come up with for someone as infamous as Hitler.

Well now I'm curious, what kind of law are we talking here? Does public domain work differently in Japan? Because that would explain a few things...

 

[Ivander]

Like Nero Claudious but actually evil?

Fate's issue is often dependent on the writer because you do have characters who've done some horrible things in their life and they full out acknowledge the horrible stuff they did and some characters acknowledge how they F'd up, but then you bring in another writer and they're either comically handled and do not take it seriously or they mary-sue the heck out of the character and refuse to acknowledge that part of them.

When they first introduced Nero, she was in that first category and it was handled very well. She herself acknowledges her F-ups, her pride is still there, but taken down a notch because of how it ultimately backfired against her in life, but since she can't really do anything to change what she did back then, she focuses on trying to be a better person than she was in life. Come Fate/Grand Order and Fate/Extella and they really went hard on the "Is good at everything/She's not so bad/Is just misunderstood" deal.
Like I can understand if the latter was applied to some degree as some events written about Nero's life were likely fabricated and in the case for the Christian massacre, he likely did that out of panic and trying to get the people to put the blame on somebody else when some of the citizens and nobles were putting the blame on him despite a couple very serious historians, who didn't like him as much as the others, still mentioned he was there trying to help put the fire out.

But in Fate/Grand Order and Fate/Extella's case, it went way too far in trying to avoid acknowledging the things Nero did or having characters who should be 100% against her be much more tame with her. Not to mention trying to rise her up by having other characters practically praising her without her doing much. And because of Fate/Grand Order being a very popular game and having a large fanbase with some very sensitive people who don't like the image of their "Perfect Waifu" getting knocked down, there's been very little attempt at trying to put her closer to her original Extra personality. Should've seen the reception to Okita Souji when Fate/Redline came out and some were absolutely shocked at how different she was compared to Grand Order.

 

[Gengar84]

Seriously though, I think there's real potential for more water users in Smash and not just reserve that to the Pokémon. A Wave Race character with a smattering of jet ski actions would be perfect for that, but I'd be open to others too. It certainly would be a more versatile niche than having another ninja when we already have Greninja and Sheik if anything.

Also, if they rework ice effects to not have that immobilization thing, they could rework Samus' VFX to be an ice user.

Other than Pokémon, I think my most wanted water elemental user is either Tidus from Final Fantasy X or Frog from Chrono Trigger. Tidus doesn’t really have any specific water attacks but his sword is water element. He might be able to incorporate some water into a Blitzball attack of some kind. Frog does have actual water attacks and I really like the character but he’s probably behind both Crono and Magus for a potential Chrono Trigger rep. Chaos from Sonic is another potentially fun option for an out there choice.

My choices for ice are between Sub-Zero from Mortal Kombat and Glacius from Killer Instinct. In order to play accurately, Sub would probably need a unique ice mechanic that freezes opponents in place. Glacius doesn’t really immobilize enemies so you wouldn’t really need to change anything there. There’s also Bad Mr. Frosty from Clay Fighter that would be a fun surprise addition.

 

[Quillion]

Other than Pokémon, I think my most wanted water elemental user is either Tidus from Final Fantasy X or Frog from Chrono Trigger. Tidus doesn’t really have any specific water attacks but his sword is water element. He might be able to incorporate some water into a Blitzball attack of some kind. Frog does have actual water attacks and I really like the character but he’s probably behind both Crono and Magus for a potential Chrono Trigger rep. Chaos from Sonic is another potentially fun option for an out there choice.

My choices for ice are between Sub-Zero from Mortal Kombat and Glacius from Killer Instinct. In order to play accurately, Sub would probably need a unique ice mechanic that freezes opponents in place. Glacius doesn’t really immobilize enemies so you wouldn’t really need to change anything there. There’s also Bad Mr. Frosty from Clay Fighter that would be a fun surprise addition.

I think the ice mechanic could work so that if you bombard an opponent with enough ice attacks, they become immobilized. Hopefully that could even be shared with Samus.

 

[Simnm]

The dlc not getting palutenas guidence makes me think they are goin to return

 

[JOJONumber691]

Well now I'm curious, what kind of law are we talking here? Does public domain work differently in Japan? Because that would explain a few things...

Tl;dr in Japanese Law some historical figures are banned from being portrayed in media. This law includes Hitler for obvious reasons. Which would naturally cause Hitler to be unable to be used in a series like Fate.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

THIS VIDEO SHOULD HAVE ENDED WITH A NEW FIGHTER REVEAL VIDEO!!

Not gonna lie, it kind of blows that Sakurai after all this time still seems to have his flawed stance on people uploading cutscenes to the internet.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I always thought Wace Racer would play like the Jet Ability from the Kirby games.

It would focus on bursts of speed and forward momentum.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Not gonna lie, it kind of blows that Sakurai after all this time still seems to have his flawed stance on people uploading cutscenes to the internet.

Nah, I understand. The mode was leak before launch to the point media outlets were reporting it online. I'm glad he clarified much better than before.

People blaming Sakurai and not Leak Culture is quite funny especially when the only highlight people talk with Subspace is the cutscenes. Waste of money and resources atp so Sakurai was smart to redirect focus.

Creating cutscenes meant to be shared in terms of trailers

 

[Schnee117]

Nah, I understand. The mode was leak before launch to the point media outlets were reporting it online. I'm glad he clarified much better than before.

People blaming Sakurai and not Leak Culture is quite funny especially when the only highlight people talk with Subspace is the cutscenes. Waste of money and resources atp so Sakurai was smart to redirect focus.

Creating cutscenes meant to be shared in terms of trailers

Nah it's 1000% Sakurai being stupid. Leaks happen all the time but no other game creator has gone "Welp, no point making cutscenes if they're gonna be leaked online ahead of release"

The fact he eventually got to "what if we redirect the resources to marketing" does not make the fact that he got to "no cutscenes because they'll leak" in the first place or the fact that he still hangs on to that any less ridiculous and the defence for it is equally as silly.

The man is allowed to be flawed and be criticised on some of the dumb stuff he says.

 

[fogbadge]

hmm i come in here and i find people talking about how they might put hitler in a video game. think i'll go back to bed

I'm still waiting the day Kinoko and co. decides to make Queen Elizabeth II a male servant.

sounds more like diana

 

[UserKev]

We need Character Support threads back opened again. I don't see why they should be closed between every post release when they'd be a delicacy to the forums all year round. I feel like a sort of aftermath would work greatly for some. Just a thought.

 

[Perkilator]

Quoting from a creation thread:

Here's my Smash Ultimate Deluxe roster:
View attachment 380517

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Nah it's 1000% Sakurai being stupid. Leaks happen all the time but no other game creator has gone "Welp, no point making cutscenes if they're gonna be leaked online ahead of release"

The fact he eventually got to "what if we redirect the resources to marketing" does not make the fact that he got to "no cutscenes because they'll leak" in the first place or the fact that he still hangs on to that any less ridiculous and the defence for it is equally as silly.

The man is allowed to be flawed and be criticised on some of the dumb stuff he says.

To further add to this, it's been made pretty clear with especially Fighters Pass 2 that Sakurai and the team have gotten a LOT better at not getting this **** leaked out. People like Sephiroth, Aegis and Kazuya were genuine surprises no one expected, for example. And even Steve hadn't gotten any words since Vergeben's pre-launch stuff so it's possible some may have even forgotten about that.

If the reason you don't want to make cutscenes doesn't even apply anymore but you still take that stance, it feels like you're not trusting your own team.

I will say though that if he hadn't taken that direction, Smash wouldn't have grown into the phenomenon it is now so even if it's a silly reasoning, it still led to one of the biggest turning points of the franchise and one of its most hyped aspects; characters becoming the main focus on the game's actual marketing.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

In general if the real reward of your big new mode is story/cutscenes and not the actual core gameplay, then you're taking a questionable risk because by its very nature its something that can be easily experienced outside its intended context.

I know World of Light is not everyone's cup of tea, but if there is value in it, its from the novelty and challenge of the various event style battles; elements which you can't really appreciate unless you play it yourself. Subspace Emissary had no such luxury especially when so many found the actual platforming (the thing you spend most of your time on) underwhelming.

 

[Ivander]

Nah it's 1000% Sakurai being stupid. Leaks happen all the time but no other game creator has gone "Welp, no point making cutscenes if they're gonna be leaked online ahead of release"

The fact he eventually got to "what if we redirect the resources to marketing" does not make the fact that he got to "no cutscenes because they'll leak" in the first place or the fact that he still hangs on to that any less ridiculous and the defence for it is equally as silly.

The man is allowed to be flawed and be criticised on some of the dumb stuff he says.

Does him not liking memes about himself also him being stupid?

There's nothing stupid about not liking leaks or wanting to do things a certain way because he doesn't like leaks. It's his personal opinion. There are such things as bad or foolish opinions, but this is not one of them. He's allowed to not like certain things and if he wants to design a game a certain way because of some things he doesn't like, that's perfectly fine. This is fine compared to "Believing in something that is clearly not true" or "Believing in something regarding a group of people".

And worse things have happened because of leaks, like when alot of people and some of the Last of Us 2 developers and workers started flinging **** and slurs at each other when most of that game leaked. Quite a bunch of developers have outright stated their opinions on leaks being very demoralising when they happen. Developers have gotten pissed at stuff leaking, notably from Harada and some Capcom higher-ups.
And what's often the reason for leaking stuff? Just a few moments of fame? Wanting to be that cool kid that people hang around? There's a big issue if people are criticising developers for not being okay with leaks and yet say nothing regarding the leakers who want that piece of fame pie.

 

[Schnee117]

Does him not liking memes about himself also him being stupid?

This is a completely different thing about himself and not the games he's making.
It's fine that he doesn't like random images people make of him, he wants to control his own image as best as possible, unfortunately that's significantly harder in an era where idiots keep pushing for AI on top of how internet culture already was.

There's nothing stupid about not liking leaks or wanting to do things a certain way because he doesn't like leaks. It's his personal opinion. There are such things as bad or foolish opinions, but this is not one of them. He's allowed to not like certain things and if he wants to design a game a certain way because of some things he doesn't like, that's perfectly fine. This is fine compared to "Believing in something that is clearly not true" or "Believing in something regarding a group of people".

It's not simply a "I don't like leaks" stance which is understandable, leaks actually suck for the devs.
It's the "I'm not doing cutscenes because they'll leak online before the game releases" stance that's stupid.

And worse things have happened because of leaks, like when alot of people and some of the Last of Us 2 developers and workers started flinging **** and slurs at each other when most of that game leaked. Quite a bunch of developers have outright stated their opinions on leaks being very demoralising when they happen. Developers have gotten pissed at stuff leaking, notably from Harada and some Capcom higher-ups.
And what's often the reason for leaking stuff? Just a few moments of fame? Wanting to be that cool kid that people hang around? There's a big issue if people are criticising developers for not being okay with leaks and yet say nothing regarding the leakers who want that piece of fame pie.

This is largely fine but again, it's the whole thing where Sakurai just throws the baby out with the bathwater. Naughty Dog aren't tossing a bunch of **** aside because of how bad TLOU2 discourse got surrounding the leaks. Harada and Capcom aren't scrapping things from Tekken 8 or SF6 because some dude wanting a few minutes of fame posted images of their rosters early. I also doubt RGG are gonna cut the music from LaD:IW because the soundtrack got leaked two months early. Leaks are so common now that you just have to roll with the fact they're gonna happen and there's only so much you can do to combat them happening. If it's not super early in the marketing season from some rando looking for a bit of fame it's outright inevitable with physical copies being sold early.

Not liking leaks is a perfectly fine and valid stance, it's deciding not to do cutscenes because they'll be put up on youtube that's a dumb stance. If the next MK doesn't have a story mode because of leaks and youtube, people would rightfully rip on the game and Ed Boon for it.

 

[Stratos]

It's been a year since Nintendo bought the Japanese animation studio Dynamo Pictures and turned it into Nintendo Pictures, but I still find it unbelievable that Nintendo would get into film, but I'm still excited like all of us to see our favorites movie franchises. As for the Nintendo Cinematic Universe I would say it won't happen, maybe not yet, because it is known that The Super Mario Bros. Movie is produced by Nintendo, Universal Pictures and Illumination and distributed by Universal, while the live action movie The Legend of Zelda will be a collaboration between Nintendo and Sony Pictures. I think Nintendo Pictures will be doing movies on their own after many years because they are still new to cinema and that's why they're working with other movie studios and I think that's maybe preventing a Nintendo Cinematic Universe from being made.

 

[Ivander]

This is a completely different thing about himself and not the games he's making.
It's fine that he doesn't like random images people make of him, he wants to control his own image as best as possible, unfortunately that's significantly harder in an era where idiots keep pushing for AI on top of how internet culture already was.

It was more brought up because your take felt like, "No other developer is doing this, so he shouldn't be either." Like just because some developers are fine with something does not mean others should do the same simply because there are others out there who don't care. It feels quite ignorant of the developers' personal feelings on things and comes across as a "Suck it up. These people aren't complaining, you shouldn't either."

It's not simply a "I don't like leaks" stance which is understandable, leaks actually suck for the devs.
It's the "I'm not doing cutscenes because they'll leak online before the game releases" stance that's stupid.

This is largely fine but again, it's the whole thing where Sakurai just throws the baby out with the bathwater. Naughty Dog aren't tossing a bunch of **** aside because of how bad TLOU2 discourse got surrounding the leaks. Harada and Capcom aren't scrapping things from Tekken 8 or SF6 because some dude wanting a few minutes of fame posted images of their rosters early. I also doubt RGG are gonna cut the music from LaD:IW because the soundtrack got leaked two months early. Leaks are so common now that you just have to roll with the fact they're gonna happen and there's only so much you can do to combat them happening. If it's not super early in the marketing season from some rando looking for a bit of fame it's outright inevitable with physical copies being sold early.

Not liking leaks is a perfectly fine and valid stance, it's deciding not to do cutscenes because they'll be put up on youtube that's a dumb stance. If the next MK doesn't have a story mode because of leaks and youtube, people would rightfully rip on the game and Ed Boon for it.

But he didn't scrap the cutscenes in SSBB after they leaked either. And while he decided not to focus on cutscenes in future games, he didn't get rid of some other things that could also be leaked online early, like Classic Mode and it's ending images, Bosses and anything else that would be considered spoilers.

It's quite clear from his perspective that he wants players to discover things while playing the game instead of just going up online and spoil the mystery. And sure, it's mostly the people's choice if they want to spoil themselves(and unfortunately, spoil others against their wishes), but if Sakurai doesn't want to focus on in-game cutscenes because they will be spoiled, there's honestly nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with expressing disappointment or not agreeing with it, but it feels quite insulting to call him stupid for something that won't affect anything in the long run.

 

[Quillion]

I still think the best kind of Adventure Mode would be a whole bunch of mini-adventures. They would all be three stages and a boss, and they can all be played independently. There would be a Mario Adventure, a Zelda Adventure, Pokémon Adventure, Metroid Adventure, Kirby Adventure, etc.

No need for cutscenes, just a brief run through the franchises' worlds and enemies, and a boss at the end.

 

[Sucumbio]

I didn't know about his apparent aversion to making cut scenes. I had assumed it was to save dev resources...

 

[Ivander]

I didn't know about his apparent aversion to making cut scenes. I had assumed it was to save dev resources...

It was to some degree, since he did talk about how much disc space SSE had taken, especially the cutscenes. But he is adamant on his thoughts about them being put up on Youtube.

 

[Louie G.]

Sakurai's decision makes sense to me after this recent video. Smash Bros is not a game that needs a bunch of cutscenes, or a structured storyline. It was cool when we had that, but it's a bonus element of a fighting game. With that in mind, his approach for cinematic character reveal trailers effectively taking their place feels like a good compromise. Here the element of surprise is in tact, you can still play with unique character interactions the same way we liked to see in Subspace and you don't even have to get tied down by a structured narrative when you can simply make them short stories of their own.

Meanwhile, Kid Icarus Uprising has full fledged cutscenes. Sakurai clearly didn't care here, and he was right not to because this is a game that leans more heavily on its narrative. There's no way around it here and the game would feel less cohesive without them. Smash doesn't have that problem, everything is operating just fine as it currently is - anything more is simply a bonus and I suppose Sakurai felt there isn't much to gain here. Would I really really like a new story mode akin to Brawl? Absolutely, but if the tradeoff is gonna be that or character trailers I honestly feel like the latter is more valuable longterm. Just give us something on the level of Melee Adventure mode again.

 

[Quillion]

Here the element of surprise is in tact, you can still play with unique character interactions the same way we liked to see in Subspace and you don't even have to get tied down by a structured narrative when you can simply make them short stories of their own.

This is why I want special team victory animations like with Mario & Luigi or Fox & Falco or Donkey Kong & Diddy, where they can get a special victory animation if they win and they're on the same team. It's a better solution to character interactions that exist in-game.

 

[Stratos]

I always want Adventure Mode in every Super Smash Bros. game, although I can't decide if I'd like it like The Subspace Emissary or World of Light because both look good to me.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Nah it's 1000% Sakurai being stupid. Leaks happen all the time but no other game creator has gone "Welp, no point making cutscenes if they're gonna be leaked online ahead of release"
The man is allowed to be flawed and be criticised on some of the dumb stuff he says.

He should but this isn't one of them. It happening all the time doesn't really justifable. Leak Culture is most of the time is a net negative especially for a series where the experience hinges on the surprise.

Why waste time, budget and resources on something when one can essentially gain the same experience for free and even before the game comes out. Waste of time.

Even then, if Sakurai changed his mind on cutscenes and bring back. How on earth do you make a SSE 2 worth of cutscenes of 89 characters getting equal amounts of spotlight and fitting into one narrative that makes sense. All for side mode.

Sakurai's decision makes sense to me after this recent video. Smash Bros is not a game that needs a bunch of cutscenes, or a structured storyline. It was cool when we had that, but it's a bonus element of a fighting game. With that in mind, his approach for cinematic character reveal trailers effectively taking their place feels like a good compromise. Here the element of surprise is in tact, you can still play with unique character interactions the same way we liked to see in Subspace and you don't even have to get tied down by a structured narrative when you can simply make them short stories of their own.

Meanwhile, Kid Icarus Uprising has full fledged cutscenes. Sakurai clearly didn't care here, and he was right not to because this is a game that leans more heavily on its narrative. There's no way around it here and the game would feel less cohesive without them. Smash doesn't have that problem, everything is operating just fine as it currently is - anything more is simply a bonus and I suppose Sakurai felt there isn't much to gain here. Would I really really like a new story mode akin to Brawl? Absolutely, but if the tradeoff is gonna be that or character trailers I honestly feel like the latter is more valuable longterm. Just give us something on the level of Melee Adventure mode again.

People always to forget or most likely, don't want admit that, you still have solid single-player without SSE 2. I enjoyed the Subspace Emissary Cutscenes myself but there really wasn't much value of outside that. WoL imo was the step in the better direction. Just cut down bit of the bloat and have more minigames to freshen things up.

Also that the note on Kid Icarus, that could also be one inspiration for an Adventure Mode. The story being intrinsically tied to the gameplay. As opposed to cutscenes/story beats, although rewards, being capable of existing in a vacuum. Having the value Character Interaction through the text and voices.

 

[DarthEnderX]

hmm i come in here and i find people talking about how they might put hitler in a video game. think i'll go back to bed

I know right? What's there to discuss? The only logical way to do it is to add Master-D from Bionic Commando.

 

[fogbadge]

I didn't know about his apparent aversion to making cut scenes. I had assumed it was to save dev resources...

in fairness neither did the rest of us

 

[DarthEnderX]

I didn't know about his apparent aversion to making cut scenes. I had assumed it was to save dev resources...

Nope. He was legit annoyed that all those scenes he intended to be rewards for playing SSE were just being watched on Youtube.

Like, he legitimately expected that the fact that Sonic was in the game would be a big surprise reveal for players when they reached that point in the game. Instead, the entire internet knew about it immediately.

in fairness neither did the rest of us

Yes we did. He was public about it post-Brawl.

 

[Louie G.]

Like, he legitimately expected that the fact that Sonic was in the game would be a big surprise reveal for players when they reached that point in the game. Instead, the entire internet knew about it immediately.

He obviously did not, a trailer was released for Sonic before the game released. That same trailer is even referenced in the video he released yesterday.

 

[SPEN18]

Not to mention Sonic is literally on the back of the game box

 

[Schnee117]

He should but this isn't one of them. It happening all the time doesn't really justifable. Leak Culture is most of the time is a net negative especially for a series where the experience hinges on the surprise.

If the Smash experience hinges on being surprised then the experience has to change because with Smash 4 and Ultimate it only strengthens the notion that hype culture has taken over actually playing the game you're getting hyped for.
It's a fighting game, I ain't here to be surprised. I'm here for characters doing cool **** alongside and against other characters doing cool ****. Changing your approach to how you make art because of spoilers is dumb

Why waste time, budget and resources on something when one can essentially gain the same experience for free and even before the game comes out. Waste of time.

You could ask this to any artist and the majority would tell you you're being silly
Why go to the movies or buy a DVD, I can wait for some bozo to put it up on Twitter or other less than reputable sites and get it for free?
It's because the experience through a leak is different to getting a more proper, intended experience but in that regard your mileage will vary quite a lot.

Even then, if Sakurai changed his mind on cutscenes and bring back. How on earth do you make a SSE 2 worth of cutscenes of 89 characters getting equal amounts of spotlight and fitting into one narrative that makes sense. All for side mode.

See this is actually 100% understandable and actually reasonable but unfortunately it's not the thing that got Sakurai going "no cutscenes"
It's also not really a side mode when it's one of the major things you're advertising about your game. Neither WoL or SSE are side modes.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

He obviously did not, a trailer was released for Sonic before the game released. That same trailer is even referenced in the video he released yesterday.

I think Darth meant for specifically Subspace. And even then I don't think it's quite true.

I think it's just that Sega initially refusing to let Sakurai add Sonic only to backpedal and change their minds later in development screwed Sonic out of getting any involvement in the main story without scrapping entire cutscenes from scratch and altering story arcs so the best they could do without causing drastic changes at a point where they couldn't afford to do that was to shoehorn him at the end.

But that's just speculation on my part.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Not to mention Sonic is literally on the back of the game box

Sonic and Snake being secret characters was such a stupid desicion lol

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As an artist, I get where Sakurai is coming from. It's too bad we won't get cutscenes, but they take an extremely high amount of work and the payoff he wants isn't worth it. That's completely fair.

That said, I will miss them~