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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

TheFirstPoppyBro

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If Arms gets another game do they get another fighter? Ngl I hate the Arms AT and if he was in instead of min min and designed like that I'd be mad and I don't even use min min or play arms.
I feel like Min Min pretty much covers all the bases as far as what an ARMS character can do. The other ARMS characters have unique attributes and could theoretically do their own thing, but minus like one thing (Helix's stretching, Ribbon Girl's extra jump, etc) I feel like any ARMS character would be inherently very similar to Min Min. The only differences I can think of would be using different Arm types (which functionally would be like Richter's Holy Water, same attack but a different element attached), and maybe different moves for Up and Down Smash, since Min Min is the only one that can kick in ARMS itself.

So basically, making any more would inherently be making a semi-clone at best just from how ARMS as a game functions and how Min Min is pretty accurate to her source material, so even if it got more games I would expect Min Min to be the only one.
 

Louie G.

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So basically, making any more would inherently be making a semi-clone at best just from how ARMS as a game functions and how Min Min is pretty accurate to her source material, so even if it got more games I would expect Min Min to be the only one.
ARMS is weird huh? Because like, in the context of ARMS itself you have characters like Helix, Dr. Coyle and Max Brass who are completely unique in every way and don't fight anything like Min Min. But put these characters in Smash, and the core mechanic of ARMS suddenly makes them feel a bit more redundant when Min Min is already covering the Dhalsim-esque zoner brawler archetype. Since Min Min is built to showcase what's unique about ARMS' general gameplay / the sport itself, her specials and basic punches are shared across essentially the whole cast.

I think there's plenty that can be done to differentiate them, they would at least fight quite differently from Min Min's martial artistry - but if they follow the model of ARMS as it is currently represented in Smash, yeah they would share a handful of key moves. I think you'd be best off adding a different weight class like Max Brass so you can at least play around with more of a grappler styled approach... as hellish as that sounds to deal with. Otherwise someone like Spring Man could probably be a semiclone as previously stated, and of course they could all use unique ARMS to varying effect.

Really feels like the question is moreso "will Min Min come back" rather than "will ARMS get more characters" though, unless they surprise us with a proper followup for the next console. I hope they do, I think the series has potential and a fantastic cast that I would like to see at least given one more go. Just for the record I do think Min Min will return to Smash, because however you feel about its legacy ARMS is the only Switch IP on the roster as it stands. And we don't have a lot of precedent for outright cutting off first party series anyway, so that's enough in my eyes.
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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ARMS is weird huh? Because like, in the context of ARMS itself you have characters like Helix, Dr. Coyle and Max Brass who are completely unique in every way and don't fight anything like Min Min. But put these characters in Smash, and the core mechanic of ARMS suddenly makes them feel a bit more redundant when Min Min is already covering the Dhalsim-esque zoner brawler archetype. Since Min Min is built to showcase what's unique about ARMS' general gameplay / the sport itself, her specials and basic punches are shared across essentially the whole cast.

I think there's plenty that can be done to differentiate them, they would at least fight quite differently from Min Min's martial artistry - but if they follow the model of ARMS as it is currently represented in Smash, yeah they would share a handful of key moves. I think you'd be best off adding a different weight class like Max Brass so you can at least play around with more of a grappler styled approach... as hellish as that sounds to deal with. Otherwise someone like Spring Man could probably be a semiclone as previously stated, and of course they could all use unique ARMS to varying effect.

Really feels like the question is moreso "will Min Min come back" rather than "will ARMS get more characters" though, unless they surprise us with a proper followup for the next console. I hope they do, I think the series has potential and a fantastic cast that I would like to see at least given one more go. Just for the record I do think Min Min will return to Smash, because however you feel about its legacy ARMS is the only Switch IP on the roster as it stands. And we don't have a lot of precedent for outright cutting off first party series anyway, so that's enough in my eyes.
I do think there's definitely some things you could do, but I feel like a lot of them work better as unique aspects specifically in a setup like ARMS has, I guess is a good way to put it (like Helix's stretch works better in an arena fighter where he can dodge fists, rather than on a 2D plane, for example). If the character in question works like Min Min does off of that framework, then that's jab, forward tilt, forward smash, neutral special, side special, down special, and grab, and while that obviously still leaves a lot of room for changeups in the other tilts, smash attacks, recovery, and throws, I guess it just kinda feels odd to me personally because of how much Min Min already embodies ARMS' gameplay on the whole? Definitely something that could happen maybe if a new game came out during the planning phase, though I wouldn't expect it myself.

I do think going to a different weight class would be the best shot at making something work for that though, I'll agree.

I also think Min Min is going to come back, basically for the same reasons you listed. I think the only time an entire first party series was cut was the Ice Climbers in 4, and that was because they physically couldn't function properly on Smash 3DS, rather than just being axed.
 
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Ivander

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Ninjara I think could be made a Ken-style Echo for Min-Min, since I think his Chakram ARM functions identically to Min Min's Ramram ARM normally(heard they have different charge attacks, which I don't think are part of Min-Min's moveset in Smash) and his Buff ARM can work as a faster, but weaker Megawatt. Tri-Blast would be his extra range option like Dragon, except it shoots out 3 missiles that can hit a foe individually, but obviously deals the most damage if all 3 hit compared to Dragon's ranged beam.
His only issue is that he is notably taller than Min-Min, which is currently a negative for becoming an Echo since all Echos are the same height, but his animations could have him bending or squatting a bit more to align more with Min-Min's height. The other thing is that they could just make him shorter, much like what happened with Chrom, who is supposed to be taller than Lucina.
 

Kirbeh

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Since we're talking ARMS now, I have to say that making Min Min a literal 1-1 "playing ARMS in Smash" was a bad idea imo. I would have much rather had a Min Min that leaned more into being a kung fu style character who happens to have some long range normals.

It's one of the cases where I feel being more accurate to the source gameplay made for a more limited and honestly kind of boring moveset.

Ironically, despite being the representative of ARMS, it's her kicking attacks that make up the moves I actually like.
 

smashkirby

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Of the franchises represented in Smash, which franchises do you guys want Yoko to do a remix for that she hasn’t already? You can also throw in franchises that aren’t represented at all.
Well, I'd like to see Yoko do a remix of Birdman and Gyrocopter from Pilotwings 64...
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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Of the franchises represented in Smash, which franchises do you guys want Yoko to do a remix for that she hasn’t already? You can also throw in franchises that aren’t represented at all.
This is part of my long shot character hope for Smash, and I don't have a specific track in mind, but I would LOVE to see what Yoko could do with a Touhou remix.
 

Garteam

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For the record, yeah, the term Scrimblo Bimblo was absolutely formed to push back against the anti-JRPG gatekeeping done by the folks who pushed for (almost exclusively, mind you) cartoony mascot platformer characters. It's pretty much just synonymous with the "cereal mascot" catch-all.

Like, one bit of context that gets removed oftentimes is that the original poster followed up and said the character they had in mind when writing it was Klonoa. So like...there's your blueprint.

(Which is also funny in retrospect since Klonoa, out of the remaining pile of Scrimblos, has more merit than most others, but you know.)

Basically it's specifically pushing back against the demographic who will complain about Cloud ****ing Strife being another sword fighter while also complaining about the lack of (usually either western-exclusive or western-centric) has-been/never-were platformer characters like Earthworm Jim, Boogerman, Aero the Acrobat, or the Jersey Devil, or alternatively, the folks who think Fire Emblem should be pruned down to two fighters while pushing for five Sonic newcomers.
While I do agree that is a good description of how the term originated, I would massively disagree that the term hasn't evolved since then to basically become the thing it was supposed to destroy: a catch-all to disparage certain characters on the ground that the speaker doesn't have any personal experience with them and they believe the roster is oversaturated at a very base-level. For every request for a genuine "has-been/never-been" that is labeled as a scrimbo, the term is thrown around to support utterly ridiculous claims like "No one knows who Crash Bandicoot or Rayman is" or "Banjo and Mega Man should be cut because no one cares about them".

I just think characters should be evaluated on their merits rather than dismissed using fundamentally toxic terms. Just as I think most rational people can agree that certain anime JRPG protags like Lightning and certain '90s platform mascots like Bubsy should be kept far away from Smash, most people can get behind characters that have a lot of merit to their inclusion but fit into those archetypes.
 

Louie G.

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Admittedly the most annoying thing about Scrimblo Bimblo vs McRPGGuy to me is the complete neglect toward other genres that it represents.

To many Smash fans, especially during Ultimate speculation, Platformers and RPGs were treated as largely the only genres worth talking about. Crash and Sora were treated as glaring omissions, which by some metric maybe they were, but with little acknowledgement toward the pioneers and icons of puzzle, horror, shmup, beat 'em up... genres with not even a single character to represent their unique quirks. The joke tweet represents a real conflict that absolutely dominated and shut out conversations about practically anyone underneath a certain threshold or outside a particular venn diagram.

At least most people did acknowledge that FPS could use Chief or Doomguy, but that's about it as far as large scale movements past the big two and the growing presence of fighting game characters. Anyone seriously complaining that platformers of all genres were being sold short in Smash was being ridiculous.
 
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Quillion

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Since we're talking ARMS now, I have to say that making Min Min a literal 1-1 "playing ARMS in Smash" was a bad idea imo. I would have much rather had a Min Min that leaned more into being a kung fu style character who happens to have some long range normals.

It's one of the cases where I feel being more accurate to the source gameplay made for a more limited and honestly kind of boring moveset.

Ironically, despite being the representative of ARMS, it's her kicking attacks that make up the moves I actually like.
I just don't like how a lot of the Smash 4-on characters are trying to recreate source game mechanics where possible. It really is making Smash feel mechanically bloated where one fighter has different mechanics from another.

I really miss when Smash was able to make up basic things to fill in the normals instead of trying to shoehorn every little thing from the home series into the moveset.

I remember earlier in the thread where some people were discussing making a Wave Race character just swing his jet ski around. Like seriously, how would that be more fun than being a full-on waterbender?
 

Hadokeyblade

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I just don't like how a lot of the Smash 4-on characters are trying to recreate source game mechanics where possible. It really is making Smash feel mechanically bloated where one fighter has different mechanics from another.

I really miss when Smash was able to make up basic things to fill in the normals instead of trying to shoehorn every little thing from the home series into the moveset.

I remember earlier in the thread where some people were discussing making a Wave Race character just swing his jet ski around. Like seriously, how would that be more fun than being a full-on waterbender?
It bothers me when it just ends up feeling clunky.

But then you get characters like Sora where playing him lowkey feels like your playing a side scrolling KH game, it really feels good.
 

Sucumbio

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I know "online" is often cited as being trash but they did some things right. I love the weekly tournament event for example, and when they introduced 1v1 competitive (no items) though stocks would be preferable I understand automated brackets needing time to make it smoother for everyone. I hope this feature continues at any rate.

Something I'd prefer different, I don't think knocking out an AT should count towards your score in a timed match. Just ko'ing it is its own reward since it can't hurt you anymore.
 

Nabbitfan730

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Scrimblo Bimblo is one of the dumbest-named terms I have ever heard.
It means to be a mocking degoratory terms for those who wanted to DLC have more variety in designs instead of same-old, same old. 2020 Smash discourse was something and not in a good way.

I just don't like how a lot of the Smash 4-on characters are trying to recreate source game mechanics where possible. It really is making Smash feel mechanically bloated where one fighter has different mechanics from another.

I really miss when Smash was able to make up basic things to fill in the normals instead of trying to shoehorn every little thing from the home series into the moveset.

I remember earlier in the thread where some people were discussing making a Wave Race character just swing his jet ski around. Like seriously, how would that be more fun than being a full-on waterbender?
It's funny you say that as most opinons usually be the opposite. Everyone praises Smash 4 and beyond moveset for that said mindset and bash everything that came before, saying they are outdated and need revamps. To the point, they would rather 20 characters only for it.

I know "online" is often cited as being trash but they did some things right. I love the weekly tournament event for example, and when they introduced 1v1 competitive (no items) though stocks would be preferable I understand automated brackets needing time to make it smoother for everyone. I hope this feature continues at any rate.

Something I'd prefer different, I don't think knocking out an AT should count towards your score in a timed match. Just ko'ing it is its own reward since it can't hurt you anymore.

Getting rid of For Fun/Glory was a huge mistake tho. Made online less engaging and I'm one of few who doesn't mind Smash Online match-wise other than the input buffer
 
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fogbadge

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I know "online" is often cited as being trash but they did some things right. I love the weekly tournament event for example, and when they introduced 1v1 competitive (no items) though stocks would be preferable I understand automated brackets needing time to make it smoother for everyone. I hope this feature continues at any rate.
i meant online gaming in general
 

Louie G.

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It means to be a mocking degoratory terms for those who wanted to DLC have more variety in designs instead of same-old, same old. 2020 Smash discourse was something and not in a good way.
It was already clarified well by Opossum that it was intended as pushback against whiny close-minded fans who only believed platforming mascots to be worthy of being playable. The community greatly favors these characters and always has, so if anything is same-old same-old it's that. The community is notoriously nasty toward that which it is unfamiliar, and it feels as if some vocal fans were only interested in one genre. It's mocking those who were doing the mocking and harassing themselves.

I don't see how characters like Crash or Rayman would be that more compelling or stylistically distinct than Joker, Hero or Sephiroth either. We have Banjo & Kazooie after all - and hell, K. Rool in the base roster - so stacking on platforming mascots wouldn't be that much different than what happened with RPG or Fighting game characters. It would just be easier for a specific vocal area of the community to digest.

Personally I wish there was more diversity in which audiences DLC decided to play toward, fans of many lesser genres got hung to dry - outside of Steve - but it is what it is. I believe fans of those characters are the ones truly wishing to push against the "same-old same-old" but to my knowledge there's no derogatory name toward horror game or VN characters. I wonder why...
 
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Sucumbio

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i meant online gaming in general
I.0

My b I wasn't actually talking to anyone I don't always read everyone post lol

yeah Nabbitfan730 Nabbitfan730 I miss it I used to play fg teams for hours and we'd all try out best chrs on each other. I did end up stagnant tho whereas Elite Smash makes you end up better at the game for the same amount of hours. Probably because variety and matchup experience is more important than how to beat the same opponent. But the trade off pisses me off too bc I'd like to play against some ppl with more than one chr. Maybe next time we can have more options. Remember in Brawl? Lol making a friend button was huge...

They need to bring back taunt keys working. For Christ's, please Nintendo! Seriously taunt parties still exist so I still have to either sit through them or play along at LEAST gimme some more buttons to play with! PLEASE!
 

SPEN18

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I remember earlier in the thread where some people were discussing making a Wave Race character just swing his jet ski around. Like seriously, how would that be more fun than being a full-on waterbender?
Was this in reference to my post on a Wave Race moveset?

In fairness, that was not a fleshed out moveset, just a list of possibilities. But anyway "just swinging the jet ski around" is really selling it short. I'd recommend watching gameplay of Wave Race 64 and Wave Race Blue Storm, both the races and the stunt mode (or better yet playing it yourself), to get a better sense of the potential. And, yeah, not everything has to be a direct reference to the source material; there's plenty of room for original stunts and tricks that could be implemented into a Smash moveset and still capture the right feel of the character.

I think a Wave Race character could also make use of some original waterbending moves to flesh things out; it's not a bad idea. But I also think you're not realizing the character's full potential if you just stuck to, say, a watery Falcon variant.

If you're really having trouble imagining the jet ski working, you could just restrict the jet ski moves to the specials only, while using more generic fighting moves with water effects for the normals, but again I think there is room for at least a little more creativity than that without making it unworkable. I also think making use of the jet ski in interesting ways is one of the selling points of a Wave Race character to begin with.
 
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Stratos

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Could someone from the 1080° Snowboarding series come as a newcomer? It would be a bit strange for me at least, but I would get used to it. Although the most likely from the 1080° Snowboarding series would be Kensuke Kimachi and Ricky Winterborn perhaps.
 

Sucumbio

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Could someone from the 1080° Snowboarding series come as a newcomer? It would be a bit strange for me at least, but I would get used to it. Although the most likely from the 1080° Snowboarding series would be Kensuke Kimachi and Ricky Winterborn perhaps.
The Avalanche could be a stage...
 

Quillion

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It bothers me when it just ends up feeling clunky.

But then you get characters like Sora where playing him lowkey feels like your playing a side scrolling KH game, it really feels good.
Yeah, Sora's alright. The Command Deck magic is a bit much, and there are some things he has (and Bayonetta too) that I wish were shared with the other characters, but he's alright.

Still though, a lot of these overly "canon-faithful" characters just feel really clunky rather than characters well-adapted to Smash while bringing in the best of their series. I'll say it again: we don't need EVERY SINGLE CANON ABILITY represented in a moveset, though there should be an allowance for fighting game and hack-n-slash characters as said here:

Also, only Game & Watch, FGC characters and people from hack-and-slash games like Bayonetta can truly get away with every move being a reference while still creating a moveset that makes sense.
It's funny you say that as most opinons usually be the opposite. Everyone praises Smash 4 and beyond moveset for that said mindset and bash everything that came before, saying they are outdated and need revamps. To the point, they would rather 20 characters only for it.
Because they only look at moveset faithfulness to canon as the only important things while ignoring other important things like a coherent idea, moveset synergy, and mechanical intuitiveness.

They only like the style and care nothing about the substance. And as I said here, I blame Mega Man for it.

Mega Man ruined the general attitude towards moveset design.

Before Smash 4, players were happy with a balance between visual coherence, picking out the best parts from a canonical skillset, and boons/drawback balanced design.

Since Smash 4, any moveset where a single normal or special isn't a canonical reference is considered trash moveset design.
Because swinging a jet ski around is both funnier and more fitting to the franchise.
Mario shrinking at 100% and dying in one hit afterwards no matter what is funnier and more fitting to the Mario franchise too and you wouldn't want that.

Was this in reference to my post on a Wave Race moveset?

In fairness, that was not a fleshed out moveset, just a list of possibilities. But anyway "just swinging the jet ski around" is really selling it short. I'd recommend watching gameplay of Wave Race 64 and Wave Race Blue Storm, both the races and the stunt mode (or better yet playing it yourself), to get a better sense of the potential. And, yeah, not everything has to be a direct reference to the source material; there's plenty of room for original stunts and tricks that could be implemented into a Smash moveset and still capture the right feel of the character.

I think a Wave Race character could also make use of some original waterbending moves to flesh things out; it's not a bad idea. But I also think you're not realizing the character's full potential if you just stuck to, say, a watery Falcon variant.

If you're really having trouble imagining the jet ski working, you could just restrict the jet ski moves to the specials only, while using more generic fighting moves with water effects for the normals, but again I think there is room for at least a little more creativity than that without making it unworkable. I also think making use of the jet ski in interesting ways is one of the selling points of a Wave Race character to begin with.
Maybe using the jet ski for the neutral aerial and specials would work if anything.

Still though, fighting with a jet ski for the majority of normals would be jank no matter what. Restraint on what canon things to bring in and what things to make up will breed a lot more creativity than just relying solely on canon things.
 

SPEN18

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Maybe using the jet ski for the neutral aerial and specials would work if anything.

Still though, fighting with a jet ski for the majority of normals would be jank no matter what. Restraint on what canon things to bring in and what things to make up will breed a lot more creativity than just relying solely on canon things.
Certainly it would work for the specials at least as several other characters have vehicle-based specials. Also many characters' specials serve the functions of rushing and recovering. The jet ski makes a lot of sense for aerials, too; doing stunts in the air is a core component of Wave Race and in this case I think that component translates rather naturally to Smash aerials.
For other normals, there is material that can be taken directly from the gameplay, like for example up-tilt could be a kick to a handstand, potentially with the jet ski or without depending on the overall logistics of the moveset. I don't see why something like that would be an issue. But you could also have moves that don't reference a specific motion from the game but still capture that spirit of doing tricks and stunts.
I think it would be fun and humorous to have some moves utilizing other items of the game like potentially the dolphins, rings, or buoys, to the extent that they contribute to the variety and uniqueness of the moveset, but of course it has to fit naturally with the overall design and direction. I agree that you don't just want the moveset to turn into a hodge-podge of random items popping out. It's not like Wave Race is a collect-a-thon kind of game where that might make more sense.
 

Ivander

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I think it would be fun and humorous to have some moves utilizing other items of the game like potentially the dolphins, rings, or buoys, to the extent that they contribute to the variety and uniqueness of the moveset, but of course it has to fit naturally with the overall design and direction. I agree that you don't just want the moveset to turn into a hodge-podge of random items popping out. It's not like Wave Race is a collect-a-thon kind of game where that might make more sense.
When you bring those up, I'm heavily reminded of Jeanne D'arc of FGO in her Summer outfit where she uses a lifebuoy ring as a weapon and her attacks consist of doing performance tricks with dolphins.
Which would be utterly bizarre and unique for a Smash moveset. Not to mention there's a character who does use a jet ski and sometimes rides/stands on it and attacks with it like a landshark. Now it just makes me want a Wave Race and 1080 revival where they are capable of doing some very wacky stuff.

And yes, it's that Joan of Arc. It's the Fate series, so you're going to have historical figures in a swimsuit at some point.
 

JOJONumber691

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I am waiting for the day that Japanese Law allows Type Moon to use Hitler in Fate. I’m genuinely curious what stupidity that team could come up with for someone as infamous as Hitler.
 
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