Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

I honestly think that an underrated, never-gonna-happen pick that I don't think I've mentioned in this thread yet is...

View attachment 341168

I'm dead serious. My idea for how it would play is that the Wiimote can hop around and flip and the like, as well as using its safety strap for things like jabs. However, the main moveset comes from various Wii peripherals, such as the Nunchuk, Wii Wheel, Wii Zapper and Balance Board. As stupid as it seems, it's a genuine possibility.

Alts, for example:

View attachment 341169

Alt 1: White (Classic)
Alt 2: Black (Classic)
Alt 3: Light Blue (Classic)
Alt 4: Pink (Classic)
Alt 5: Red (Wii Mini)
Alt 6: Green (Based on the Luigi remote, though without the Luigi icon.)
Alt 7: Yellow (Based on the Bowser remote, though without the Bowser icon.)
Alt 8: Gold (Based on the Zelda remote, but without the Triforce.)

In fact, you could include a wide variety of tracks here. Various system themes such as the DSi Shop theme, various Wii U BIOS themes, some of the Wii Channel themes... and you could even finish it off by having the Wii Menu itself as a playable stage.

Oh, and spirits? It would finally be a chance to see console Spirits in the game! Include pretty much every notable Nintendo console, and maybe a few peripherals too!

It's a little surprising to me that the Wiimote wasn't considered in Wii U, and whilst it's not likely anymore... I think it would still be funny, but cool, to see!

Cool Idea bro!
Mine is about Virtual Boy as never-gonna-happen Pick.
I coukd want to see Wiimote and Virtual Boy as Hardware Reps in Smash.

 

[Shroob]

Eh, even without character designs that are alternate versions of Toads/Goombas/etc., I still think they put a lot of care into The Origami King.

Unfortunately that lot of care doesn't really matter to those who fell in love with the first two games' gameplay.

Origami King is a great* game


The * being it's a great game when it's not trying to be an RPG.


The ring system will forever be one of the worst combat systems in a game I've ever played, hands down. It's just not fun. At first it 'seems' fun, but eventually as the game went on, I went out of my way to avoid battles just because I didn't want to deal with it, and when I had to, I just paid for the solution. It's just needlessly tedious and boring.

I would have much preferred Super Paper Mario's lack of RPG-content to whatever the **** they were going for in Origami King, which sucks because Origami King does have a lot of great things going for it, but that combat system just spoils almost the entire package.

 

[Slime Scholar]

Ultimate picks especially DLC filled with a ton of shilling from Nintendo

Having Sakurai have more creative control on the roster is much better outcome than Nintendo themselves

I wholeheartedly disagree.

For the entirety of the first fighter’s pass, people were accusing Sakurai of bias, and asserting that Nintendo never picked the roster or at least gave him a ton of choice. And I can guarantee that if he never revealed who picked the fighters, they’d still be convinced it was bias.

Even before Ultimate, fighter selection has always been commercially-minded, whether it was big third party names that the fan base wasn’t particularly asking for, like Ryu, or characters from recently released Nintendo games like Corrin. Even Bayonetta’s critics were split between thinking her selection was the result of either personal bias or a marketing ploy.

But beyond all that, I don’t think the roster is sacred enough that a little cross promotion is actually a bad thing. Like, with Steve they included a character from literally the most popular game in the world? Oh no? Sakurai finally got to add a Dragon Quest character that he wanted around the time DQ11 got a Switch port? The horror! Clearly Nintendo should give Sakurai complete creative control so that he can be the one responsible for not adding Geno, or Waluigi, or any of the other characters we want.

This isn’t directed at one person and I don’t want to come off ass abrasive. I’m just tired.

 

[Butters Stotch]

Not worth it by this point I imagine. It's weird they never tried to remake the game on Switch either, cause there's many classic old RPG games from Square being remade this generation. Shame, cause Paper Mario is no longer much of a RPG, and Mario & Luigi is a thing of the past.

It's a shame that Alphadream went bankrupt. Is it true that the Mario & Luigi 3DS remakes had a slight hand in that? They, especially the Bowser's Inside Story remake, didn't sell well.

 

[chocolatejr9]

It's a shame that Alphadream went bankrupt. Is it true that the Mario & Luigi 3DS remakes had a slight hand in that? They, especially the Bowser's Inside Story remake, didn't sell well.

Oh my gosh! It's Butters Stotch, from the critically-acclaimed animated series South Park!

(Sorry, had to make that joke).

Anyway, yeah, the remakes bombing was a HUGE part of it. That, and the fact AlphaDream wasn't doing anything for the Switch.

 

[Butters Stotch]

Oh my gosh! It's Butters Stotch, from the critically-acclaimed animated series South Park!

(Sorry, had to make that joke).

Don't apologize, it's fine.

If the remakes were released on the Switch, things could've turned out better. Even if they couldn't remake Bowser's Inside Story properly or bundle every game into one package, they could've just remade the first two, as they don't use the touch screen.

 

[Shroob]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

For the entirety of the first fighter’s pass, people were accusing Sakurai of bias, and asserting that Nintendo never picked the roster or at least gave him a ton of choice. And I can guarantee that if he never revealed who picked the fighters, they’d still be convinced it was bias.

Even before Ultimate, fighter selection has always been commercially-minded, whether it was big third party names that the fan base wasn’t particularly asking for, like Ryu, or characters from recently released Nintendo games like Corrin. Even Bayonetta’s critics were split between thinking her selection was the result of either personal bias or a marketing ploy.

But beyond all that, I don’t think the roster is sacred enough that a little cross promotion is actually a bad thing. Like, with Steve they included a character from literally the most popular game in the world? Oh no? Sakurai finally got to add a Dragon Quest character that he wanted around the time DQ11 got a Switch port? The horror! Clearly Nintendo should give Sakurai complete creative control so that he can be the one responsible for not adding Geno, or Waluigi, or any of the other characters we want.

This isn’t directed at one person and I don’t want to come off ass abrasive. I’m just tired.

Agreed.

People act like giving Sakurai total free reigns will make it soo all their favorite Brawl-era speculation characters will be in and everything will be right in the world. It won't, and there's no guarantee that if Sakurai were given free reign that he'd even do that.


Times change, people change. An idea that Sakurai may have found cool ages ago, he may not even care about anymore. Like, look at Rhythm Heaven. They probably were gonna get a character in Smash 4, but in Ult? Nothing.

 

[Yamat08]

Don't apologize, it's fine.

If the remakes were released on the Switch, things could've turned out better. Even if they couldn't remake Bowser's Inside Story properly or bundle every game into one package, they could've just remade the first two, as they don't use the touch screen.

Yeah, releasing them on the 3DS so late was a horrible business move in general (keeping in mind that the 3DS was already showing its age by the time the Switch released). I'm guessing that they were just some late projects that were already too far in the works to quit, though porting to the Switch really should've at least been considered. It's a wonder why they went that route with Sushi Striker, yet pretty much every other post-2017 3DS game was just left to die.

Fire Emblem Three Houses scoring so high is a good thing to throw in people's faces who still dare to complain about Byleth. It honestly would excuse another newcomer like Dimitri, which I would love. Edelgard has her valuable contributions as a newcomer too, I just struggle to see what to do with Claude, even if I like the dude a great deal.

Happy that "Super Donkey Kong" made the list too. Kind of surprised Zelda Breath of the Wild was the number one choice. There where actually quite a few Zelda games on this list and that surprised me, since it was always told Zelda wasn't as popular in Japan right ?

It's also curious that the first Smash Bros and Brawl topped Melee and Smash 4.

Anyway, lots and lots of Nintendo exclusive titles !

I wouldn't hold my breath for another Three Houses character in the next Smash, especially not the house leaders. Chrom was a bit of a special case, and the reason Byleth manages to work as an amalgamation is because all three leaders arguably have a significant fanbase. Between singling one out (granted, they've already been doing that for Pokemon starters), or having 3-4 reps from a single game (from a franchise that is already controversial for its bloat of playables), they understandably went with the third option. Also, for what it's worth, Three Houses representation not only comes in the form of a playable character, but also its own stage (technically THREE stages, since it is a morpher). That's pretty significant when you consider that the only other Fire Emblem stages are just serving as general series-wide representation (Arena Ferox being the sole exception, also from an insanely popular entry, Awakening).

BTW, Super Donkey Kong is the name of Donkey Kong Country in Japan. Guess that was a translation oversight.

Also, as a Brawl fan, I'm quite happy that it made the list (especially over Melee and either version of Smash4). I just wish Sakurai would take the hint and give us a proper Adventure Mode again (I also found it worth noting that on Sakurai's twitter, any of his pics-of-the-day that referenced Subspace received higher-than-average likes and retweets).

 

[Guynamednelson]

I just wish Sakurai would take the hint and give us a proper Adventure Mode again

If he ever does such a thing, I hope he's able to outsource it for real this time. It's something he wanted to do for Subspace itself, but was forced to have the same people working on everything else work on it too, being a huge resource drain (although at least it wasn't enough of a resource drain that prevented Brawl from having its side content+more newcomers+less cloney clones)

But now thanks to increasing graphical standards, it WOULD be a more notable resource drain. It'd make the Forbidden Seven look like the...not-so-forbidden?

 

[Geno Boost]

Regarding Rhythm genre rep i would assume Hatsune Miku would be the most likely pick currently its basically the biggest icon character of rhythm games and the majority would be more excited for her than any rhythm heaven rep and she got the worldwide audience and i would assume nintendo might want to bring a whole new community and fanbase by her inclusion to smash to make them go and buy the newest smash game.
Rhythm heaven series is kinda dead currently to nintendo since 2016 if a rhythm heaven rep becomes a very highly demanded character i would expect it to get in the next smash game otherwise i would expect that nintendo might rather go for Hatsune Miku instead if they want a rhythm rep.
I know some would like to argue that Vocaloid doesnt originate as video game and that it originate as a hardware but thats more of a grey area like R.O.B. and Duck Hunt but basically she is a video game icon.

 

[Butters Stotch]

If he ever does such a thing, I hope he's able to outsource it for real this time. It's something he wanted to do for Subspace itself, but was forced to have the same people working on everything else work on it too, being a huge resource drain (although at least it wasn't enough of a resource drain that prevented Brawl from having its side content+more newcomers+less cloney clones)

To be honest, I think an individual game with Subspace's gameplay would be more likely at this point, given how many characters there are to focus on, but I'd be more than content with having a mode like it with another Smash game.

Like someone pointed out in another thread, Brawl probably would've received more content overall and most of the scrapped characters (forbidden 7, Krystal, and maybe Mega Man) would likely be playable.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Like someone pointed out in another thread, Brawl probably would've received more content overall and most of the scrapped characters (forbidden 7 + Krystal) would likely be playable.

In a timeline where Krystal got in, we probably wouldn't have Wolf anyway. Regardless of whether or not he even counts as a semiclone, he got in late in development because of asset reuse that Krystal couldn't have, and the fact that his specials are based on Fox's should be proof of that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

In a timeline where Krystal got in, we probably wouldn't have Wolf anyway. Regardless of whether or not he even counts as a semiclone, he got in late in development because of asset reuse that Krystal couldn't have, and the fact that his specials are based on Fox's should be proof of that.

Also worth noting even before that, he was on the gameplan list(due to being easier to create) where Krystal was not.

So he was already intended to be in well before the delays happened. Would Krystal have been in over him in this scenario? Probably, but he'd still be easier to make, so it's not impossible we'd have both. Just not likely.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Also worth noting even before that, he was on the gameplan list(due to being easier to create) where Krystal was not.

So he was already intended to be in well before the delays happened. Would Krystal have been in over him in this scenario? Probably, but he'd still be easier to make, so it's not impossible we'd have both. Just not likely.

I did say we PROBABLY wouldn't have Wolf. Krystal making it in wouldn't mean the corner cuts they could make with Wolf would stop existing.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I did say we PROBABLY wouldn't have Wolf. Krystal making it in wouldn't mean the corner cuts they could make with Wolf would stop existing.

I misread some of your earlier message.

Anyway, it'd be cool of Krystal actually was playable. She's the one I feel is missing the most among the Star Fox cast.

 

[SKX31]

It's also curious that the first Smash Bros and Brawl topped Melee and Smash 4.

Super Smash Bros probably had a lot of nostalgia/historicity value due to being the first game.

I'm not surprised Brawl surpassing the other two, it still has a huge casual fanbase compared to Melee, which is mostly loved by the hardcore competitive crowd, and Smash 4, which most people don't find very memorable.

Yeah, I'm not surprised either. The Japanese competitive scene didn't develop in the way it did in America; while a Japanese Melee scene exists it never really got the same kind of traction its American or even European counterparts got. So the casual / competitive conflict of yore did not play out to nearly the same extent. Instead Brawl developed a more extenstive competitive scene (which would form the core of 4's and Ultimate's playerbases there). Most of Ultimate's known playtesters are Brawl / 4 veterans (9B, Ranai, Earth) - aMSa's the main exception. 64 does have its own long-lasting scene in Japan and that has helped keep that game alive, but it's kinda confined to itself.

But to return the focus to the casual side of things: Brawl did leave a lasting impact throught Subspace, its focus on expanding on content and being on a much more popular console than its immiediate predecessor / successor was. As short as the Masterpieces were they also reminded people of the Wii Virtual console, so there's that. The problems Brawl had - online, being a gamebreaker in every single mode and I don't exaggerate when I say that, etc. - did not recieve as much ire as they did in Western fora (from what I've seen anyway, I could be wrong here).

While Melee had Adventure and the first Event mode, Adventure is... not really much outside of the Mario / Zelda levels. Most other Adventure Mode levels are replicated in the Event mode to some degree for instance. 4 is kinda hampered by relatively lacking single player options (with Wii U's Classic and Smash Tour being notable examples, while Smash Run was limited to the 3DS), Ultimate set out to try and fix a lot of 4's problems... and the lasting image of 4 is . Sure, Meta Knight is forever linked to Brawl (TerminalMontage, Alpharad and Heew have helped to perpetuate this), but Brawl's additional content does distract quite a bit from that.

Bottom line, if this was conducted in an American site I wouldn't be surprised if Ultimate / Melee makes it into the top 100. Brawl could make it in thanks to the content, but I'm not sure if its chances would be a slam dunk since Brawl's identity is not just tied to the content - Brawl's identity is also like Melee heavily tied to its mechanics. For good and ill (sure, Brawl's a broken mess mechanically - but Melee is also a beautiful disaster. And while I favor Melee I also enjoy the stuff Brawl brought to the table. This was the game where , and could fly after all).

Also worth noting even before that, he was on the gameplan list(due to being easier to create) where Krystal was not.

So he was already intended to be in well before the delays happened. Would Krystal have been in over him in this scenario? Probably, but he'd still be easier to make, so it's not impossible we'd have both. Just not likely.

Krystal's a kinda weird case in that one could make the case that her workload would never be huge compare to say an original character - a staff wielder is not all that much different from say Marth if we are to base her off of her AT - but she might have taken just enough work to make her difficult to justify.

FWIW I definetely think she's not impossible even now, but she's assuredly in a steep uphill position partly "thanks" to Star Fox as a series not even bothering to move the story beyond 64 territory. The AT did improve her chances quite a lot for the future if you ask me, not least since one can see the basis of a full moveset within her already existing attacks.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Krystal's a kinda weird case in that one could make the case that her workload would never be huge compare to say an original character - a staff wielder is not all that much different from say Marth if we are to base her off of her AT - but she might have taken just enough work to make her difficult to justify.

I think it's the tail that made it so she wasn't as cheap to make as Wolf. I guess she could use ZSS as a similar base but any minor animations being reused from ZSS still need to be modified to accommodate her tail.

And I've said it before but it'd be funny if Krystal did eventually make it in on the basis of reusing animations, as asset reuse is what helped Wolf get in but not her back in Brawl.

 

[Perkilator]

I was bored, so here are the reasons for wanting some of the characters I want:

• Meowth: Its anime relevancy
• Scizor: Natural fir for a fighting game and would be a better Gen 2 rep than Pichu (IMO)
• Ayumi: Just for another obscure character
• Azura: A more unique Fates character
• Crash Bandicoot: To complete the circle of rivalry between him and Sonic I only wish he weren't owned by Activision

 

[chocolatejr9]

I was bored, so here are the reasons for wanting some of the characters I want:

• Meowth: Its anime relevancy
• Scizor: Natural fir for a fighting game and would be a better Gen 2 rep than Pichu (IMO)
• Ayumi: Just for another obscure character
• Azura: A more unique Fates character
• Crash Bandicoot: To complete the circle of rivalry between him and Sonic I only wish he weren't owned by Activision

Rest assured, we all wish he wasn't owned by Activision...

 

[Gengar84]

I was bored, so here are the reasons for wanting some of the characters I want:

• Meowth: Its anime relevancy
• Scizor: Natural fir for a fighting game and would be a better Gen 2 rep than Pichu (IMO)
• Ayumi: Just for another obscure character
• Azura: A more unique Fates character
• Crash Bandicoot: To complete the circle of rivalry between him and Sonic I only wish he weren't owned by Activision

There are a ton of characters I’d love to see that it’s hard to narrow it down to a short list. Pretty much everything past my top three is constantly shifting around. Here are my top 10 currently:

1) Zegram Ghart (Rogue Galaxy): He’s my personal favorite video game character but is partially owned by Sony so basically has no chance.

2) Magus (Chrono Trigger): Another personal favorite from a beloved SNES RPG. Crono is probably far more likely but I’ve always loved Magus.

3) Rash/Pimple/Zitz (Battletoads): My brother’s favorite game characters and RARE’s first breakout characters. They have had a bit of a resurgence in recent times with cameos in Shovel Knight and Killer Instinct as well as a new game.

4) Fulgore (Killer Instinct): Another RARE character from my favorite fighting game series. This was basically Nintendo’s Fighting game during the SNES and N64 eras.

5) Alphen and Shionne (Tales of Arise): I just beat this game and it was a ton of fun. I feel like the two can be a fun transform style character and their play styles compliment each other really well.

6) Gengar (Pokémon): My favorite Pokémon who has a ton of personality and moveset potential.

7) Sub-Zero (Mortal Kombat): We don’t have many ice themed characters and MK is the biggest fighting game not yet in Smash. I’ve always been a big Sub-Zero fan.

8) Xemnas (Kingdom Hearts): Xemnas’ design has always been so cool and it would be great to get a villain for the ballot winner.

9) Bill Rizer (Contra): One of my first gaming memories was beating Contra with my mother as a kid. Bill has a ton of potential and would be a great retro character.

10) Sarah Kerrigan or Illidan Stormrage (StarCraft/WarCraft): These two have dropped a bit due to the ActiVision controversy but I’ve always loved Blizzard’s characters. Kerrigan has the best potential for an RTS based moveset but Illidan was always a personal favorite and has a ton of potential of his own.

 

[ForsakenM]

What makes it probably not worth it to Nintendo is that the part that makes those games successful commercially is already owned by them. What they could acquire from Square is likely not seen to make an appreciable impact financially to be worthwhile.

You can argue otherwise but Geno has been popular for like fifteen years and they've seemingly made negligible effort in that time to bring Square content into their RPGs. It very clearly doesn't seem worth it to them.

Not the least of which may be because people don't actually ask for Geno to appear in anything other than Smash in any substantial way.

'Oh man, the Geno fan started talking about Mario RPGs without mentioning Geno...HE'S TOTALLY MAKING IT ABOUT GENO! BETTER BRING UP GENO!'

Also, you can't really argue that very well now can you. Remember, Geno isn't just a Square character: He's a playable party member from the FIRST Mario RPG, which makes him an honorary Nintendo character. Then you have to consider the business relationship as far back as the Wii era still was pretty freakin bad...and then the WiiU was REALLY freakin bad. You also have to consider that Paper Mario was turned into it's own thing instead of SMRPG 2 because of the fallout of the relationships, thus they don't share universes until there is a crossover like with M&L.

In other words, prior to now, there were plenty of reasons to let the OG SMRPG characters rot and die...some personal, some strictly business. However, the relationship between these two titans is frankly at an all time high, and the only issue for Square is if they can make money off of this and do they have the manpower and time to put the love into their craft when they are busy making 10 different games for FF7R.

Also, that last part is flat-out incorrect. Geno fans are SMRPG fans, and we want Geno to return and comeback in everything Mario, but for the longest time it was seen as a Megaman situation: we can't get a new game, so we need to get him in Smash and hope the IP holder gets the memo. Personally, I would be in tatters more over a remake or sequel to SMRPG than Geno in Smash, and I would love to see characters from SMRPG join Mario Party, Mario Kart, Mario Sports games, etc. Once again, Geno in Smash was seen as the last bastion to make things move...but we very well may see him and the rest of the gang return before then.

You also aren't considering things outside of your Geno-focused lenses, like how there is a distinct lack of true Mario RPG gameplay for years and that Origami King did not scratch that itch, how long-time requests are happening on Switch but going rather slowly, and that the Switch is primed to reach a massive audience for both those familiar with a Mario RPG and those who are not. Wow, that felt a bit weird to say to someone AS a Geno fan, but we are in that age where those who focus more of their energy than those who do.

I somehow doubt Sakurai yearns for more creative control, given what he said earlier this month.
For all we know, Sakurai didn't even want total control of the roster.

This community's obsession with 'shilling' is tiring, and it's presumptuous to think that the roster would've turned out so much better in the hands of one person.

Okay...and when will we learn to not look too deep into Sakurai's words when he goes against them more often than not?

Wasn't Melee the last Smash game? Wasn't Brawl? Wasn't Smash 4? Hasn't he thought about retiring like seven times at least? Wasn't he not working on a Smash game when he was already drafting Smash Ultimate? The only time it was worth taking him on his word was about no more fighters after FP2, and even then his legacy of never standing by his words left people thinking he was full of it. This was actually the exception to the rule of 'Sakurai never sticks to what he says'.

Also, it's not tiring, it's a fact of life that companies will force things that make them profit over what people are asking for, up until it stops making them more money than it does angry social media posts. Let me Direct (haha) your attention to the prior DLC that Sakurai, as far as we know, had full or mostly full creative control over: . Huh, crazy: we got three veterans when it was clear there was demand for them and Mewtwo was essentially the face of veteran returns demands at the time, Mr. Fighting Games, Mr. Final Fantasy, the one shill pick that he gave into but originally didn't wish to include, and Too Sexy For Her Invite.

Now, move over to Ultimate, where Sakurai openly stated more than once that it's basically out of his hands and into corporate Nintendo's...and what did we get? A legacy fighting game character Smash-only nerds weren't even cultured enough to know who he was (and thus never asked for him), literally the last thing anyone would have asked for and is clearly shilling their most recent success in the FE series, Noodlegirl from her dead first party game, pressured by his peers to include the block man from the most-played game on the planet (that's not shilling at all, and the sales of Ultimate DEFINITELY don't reflect that), sexy waifus to push our newest hit RPG, and OPENLY ADMITING TO PRESSURE FROM NINTENDO TO INCLUDE TEKKEN. Hell, even Joker, Hero, Sephiroth and Sora all pop big N-shaped dollar signs into the investors' eyeballs, but among these there was various amounts of support for extended periods...and yes, I know Steve got REAL support during Ultimate's run, but none of it matters because he was always gonna happen even if no one talked about it or supported it...and Sephy is damn close to that level as well.

One of these DLC sessions is much more in tune than the other, and there is clear evidence that one had more corporate fingers in the pot than the other. Is it really presumptuous when we have evidence that suggests it as truth? Also, that's wild that you would think that you wouldn't want control over something you created that millions of people love, regardless of the workload and stress that comes from it, ESPECIALLY when you feel as though you are the only one who can do it right and the fans think the same way. Smash has just gotten as big as it was always destined to be, and Sakurai was likely rushed for most of Ultimate. He loved the journey throughout, and he's likely just decompressing vocally.

It's like when you love your family or job that you invest your very being into, but vent to someone close about all the hardships you go through due to it, yet you wouldn't change a thing. Just replace that with a game series that sold 25 million units as of September and someone close with reporters coming through the woodwork.

Agreed.

People act like giving Sakurai total free reigns will make it soo all their favorite Brawl-era speculation characters will be in and everything will be right in the world. It won't, and there's no guarantee that if Sakurai were given free reign that he'd even do that.


Times change, people change. An idea that Sakurai may have found cool ages ago, he may not even care about anymore. Like, look at Rhythm Heaven. They probably were gonna get a character in Smash 4, but in Ult? Nothing.

Huh...could that be because Nintendo didn't see it as profitable and thus didn't allow it to happen, something that wouldn't have stopped Sakurai? Merhaps. Sakurai really doesn't seem to be the kind of guy to toss away an idea because it's 'not cool anymore' and more because 'it's not currently feasible.'

Also, while NOTHING is a guarantee outside of death and taxes, for the reasons I stated above and likely more it's incredibly likely that many of the not-so-profitable fan picks of old would likely have been included if Sakurai had the majority of creative control. Every time, Sakurai seems to lose out due to time or circumstances beyond his ability at the time...and most of those hinge on a lack of time anyway.

You know, like Ultimate as a whole! I wonder how much more content we would have gotten over the years if Ultimate got delayed to 2019...for sure, many of the DLC updates would have been base game features. Welp, it's highly likely that anyone who wanted on Ultimate until now will find out at a massive price decrease sometime next year. And no, not because some bimbo said so: it's because Ultimate is following the footsteps of many other fighting games and, while I said this before in favor of a third pass (which likely was brought up, but turned down), when it costs $120 just complete your game you will get more buyers who hold out if you drop all of it in a bundle for only $80.

 

[Shroob]

Huh...could that be because Nintendo didn't see it as profitable and thus didn't allow it to happen, something that wouldn't have stopped Sakurai? Merhaps. Sakurai really doesn't seem to be the kind of guy to toss away an idea because it's 'not cool anymore' and more because 'it's not currently feasible.'

Or, the probably more likely scenario being that remember, the character was, according to Gematsu, the Chorus Men, most definitely a duo/trio character.

And Smash 4 was the game which cut Ice Climbers, Transformations, and Pokemon Trainer as a whole because the 3DS had to have a roster on parity with the WiiU version. The 3DS couldn't handle having that many "high quality" models on screen at once.


We had the Sneaky Spirit from Rhythm Heaven included in Smash Run, and outside of a couple Namco enemies like the Pooka, that was the only enemy in the entire Smash Run rogues gallery without a playable representative, unless you count the Subspace enemies. There'd be basically no logical reason why this one random enemy would be included otherwise. Between the leak basically spelling out that RH was considered, and this enemy actually making it to the final product, yeah. Can't even argue that it was promotion for a new game at the time, because adding an obscure enemy to a mode that most people won't even play, let alone see due to it being a random spawn, is a kinda poor method of advertisement.


Rhythm Heaven was almost assuredly deep into consideration for the Roster, it still had leftover data in the final game, but was cut due to the 3DS having to tag along and being a much weaker system than the WiiU.

You know, like Ultimate as a whole! I wonder how much more content we would have gotten over the years if Ultimate got delayed to 2019...for sure, many of the DLC updates would have been base game features. Welp, it's highly likely that anyone who wanted on Ultimate until now will find out at a massive price decrease sometime next year. And no, not because some bimbo said so: it's because Ultimate is following the footsteps of many other fighting games and, while I said this before in favor of a third pass (which likely was brought up, but turned down), when it costs $120 just complete your game you will get more buyers who hold out if you drop all of it in a bundle for only $80.

Yeah, I don't buy it. This is a Nintendo game. Name me one 1st party major series title that they've price cut. Other companies would cut their games prices to like 20-30 bucks now, Mario Odyssey, Mario Kart 8DX, BotW, they're all the same price as they were day 1, and I don't think Ultimate's DLC will change anything in that regard.

 

[dream1ng]

'Oh man, the Geno fan started talking about Mario RPGs without mentioning Geno...HE'S TOTALLY MAKING IT ABOUT GENO! BETTER BRING UP GENO!'

First of all, if it weren't for Geno, the cries for any SMRPG content would be so intermittent that no one would be surprised Nintendo hadn't bothered to acquire any. Second, let's not pretend that if a character like, I don't know, Boshi appeared in any context in any Mario game, people in the Geno fanbase wouldn't lose their minds relating it to an eventual Geno appearance in something.

We can dance around the root of it, or we can stop kidding ourselves. If it wasn't for Geno, you wouldn't be here talking about this.

Also, you can't really argue that very well now can you. Remember, Geno isn't just a Square character: He's a playable party member from the FIRST Mario RPG, which makes him an honorary Nintendo character. Then you have to consider the business relationship as far back as the Wii era still was pretty freakin bad...and then the WiiU was REALLY freakin bad. You also have to consider that Paper Mario was turned into it's own thing instead of SMRPG 2 because of the fallout of the relationships, thus they don't share universes until there is a crossover like with M&L.

In other words, prior to now, there were plenty of reasons to let the OG SMRPG characters rot and die...some personal, some strictly business. However, the relationship between these two titans is frankly at an all time high, and the only issue for Square is if they can make money off of this and do they have the manpower and time to put the love into their craft when they are busy making 10 different games for FF7R.

The relationship between Square and Nintendo was ameliorated sooner than you're indicating. By the DS/Wii era they were actively developing Mario games and putting their own characters in them. In the Wii U era, Geno and Cloud were in Smash. Business relationships are more multifaceted than companies porting their newest titles to Nintendo's hardware or not. Your distinction of what makes for good and bad terms are rather myopic.

There have been ample opportunities for SMRPG in Mario RPGs, but Nintendo doesn't care enough to license the content.

Also, that last part is flat-out incorrect. Geno fans are SMRPG fans, and we want Geno to return and comeback in everything Mario, but for the longest time it was seen as a Megaman situation: we can't get a new game, so we need to get him in Smash and hope the IP holder gets the memo. Personally, I would be in tatters more over a remake or sequel to SMRPG than Geno in Smash, and I would love to see characters from SMRPG join Mario Party, Mario Kart, Mario Sports games, etc. Once again, Geno in Smash was seen as the last bastion to make things move...but we very well may see him and the rest of the gang return before then.

The majority of Geno fans in this day and age become Geno fans before actually playing SMRPG. Becoming SMRPG fans is a by-product, and it's already done having the character in mind.

Go make noise about him in those games if you want him in those games. Smash isn't a requisite stepping stone, and I think you know that, because none of these points you've raised about more SMRPG have been contingent on actually getting Geno in Smash.

You might as well try, because it's been three Smash games of Geno demand and it's accomplished not a lot. And in fact, more well-rounded demand might actually help Nintendo hear things instead of being some strange Smash anomaly that probably confuses licensor and licensee alike.

Also that wasn't the impetus of Mega Man's popularity since his popularity dated back to years before the series was buried alive. Plus people were very unmistakably asking for Mega Man games, not just Mega Man in Smash.

You also aren't considering things outside of your Geno-focused lenses, like how there is a distinct lack of true Mario RPG gameplay for years and that Origami King did not scratch that itch, how long-time requests are happening on Switch but going rather slowly, and that the Switch is primed to reach a massive audience for both those familiar with a Mario RPG and those who are not. Wow, that felt a bit weird to say to someone AS a Geno fan, but we are in that age where those who focus more of their energy than those who do.

I'm acutely aware of that, but for that to matter, Nintendo would have to care. Paper Mario has deliberately not been that for a while, and Nintendo didn't throw AlphaDream a lifesaver. The evidence for them wanting a traditional Mario RPG isn't palpable, and "but Furukawa" and "but Square" isn't it.

Especially with OK being the best selling Mario ""RPG"" in a long time.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Especially with OK being the best selling Mario ""RPG"" in a long time.

To be fair, it's a Switch game. Being a Nintendo-published game on it means you're guaranteed to be a much bigger commercial success than on the Wii U by default.

 

[Slime Scholar]

Okay...and when will we learn to not look too deep into Sakurai's words when he goes against them more often than not?

Wasn't Melee the last Smash game? Wasn't Brawl? Wasn't Smash 4? Hasn't he thought about retiring like seven times at least? Wasn't he not working on a Smash game when he was already drafting Smash Ultimate? The only time it was worth taking him on his word was about no more fighters after FP2, and even then his legacy of never standing by his words left people thinking he was full of it. This was actually the exception to the rule of 'Sakurai never sticks to what he says'.

You're not asking people to "not look too deep into Sakurai's words," you're asking people to ignore his words. And I'm not sure why we're here if that's what we're going to do.

Dunno about Melee, but in the cases of Brawl and Smash 4, the games were designed as if they were the last in the series, not explicitly said to be the last, although during Smash 4's development, Sakurai did believe that to be the case. But that's not "going back on his word," it's a reality of game development. Whether or not Nintendo would want to continue the series or would approach him for it, or if he'd even want to or be able to accept isn't something he could've known. But all of that is moot anyway, because my original point was that Sakurai, generally speaking doesn't seem to want more creative control and believes that's detrimental to the long-term health of the series.

I don't really want to debate character choices and believe I've already made my case. But...

Now, move over to Ultimate, where Sakurai openly stated more than once that it's basically out of his hands and into corporate Nintendo's...and what did we get? A legacy fighting game character Smash-only nerds weren't even cultured enough to know who he was (and thus never asked for him), literally the last thing anyone would have asked for and is clearly shilling their most recent success in the FE series, Noodlegirl from her dead first party game, pressured by his peers to include the block man from the most-played game on the planet (that's not shilling at all, and the sales of Ultimate DEFINITELY don't reflect that), sexy waifus to push our newest hit RPG, and OPENLY ADMITING TO PRESSURE FROM NINTENDO TO INCLUDE TEKKEN.

People literally expected characters from ARMS and Xenoblade 2 at launch, before we knew Sakurai wasn't handpicking fighters, because they seemed like such obvious choices. This is actually a perfect example of what I said earlier-- if Sakurai hadn't flat-out stated that Nintendo picked them, nobody would bat an eye.

Also, Sakurai was "pressured by his peers to add Steve"? That's a pretty negative spin on what was otherwise a humorous story he shared about an executive not having any idea how challenging it would be to adapt Minecraft to Smash. He didn't seem pressured necessarily-- he was asked, which was, of course, part of the selection process this time around.

But like I said, I think I've made my point. A fighter being picked by someone else, with the expectation that they will be popular and make money, doesn't make them inherently worse. We can agree to disagree about whether or not this is shilling or bad or whatever.

 

[Guynamednelson]

with the expectation that they will be popular and make money

Here's the thing though: They didn't need to be as safe as they were with FP2's newcomers overall for SSBU to be a much better success than Smash 4. Look at Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, how was it able to vastly outsell the Wii U game? By basically being an all-new game entirely to the uninformed masses who knew what Mario Kart was but not the Wii U. Similarly, Ultimate already outsold Brawl in December 2018, and that was before FP2 threw "fun to play, not just recognizable" out the window.

 

[osby]

Okay...and when will we learn to not look too deep into Sakurai's words when he goes against them more often than not?

Wasn't Melee the last Smash game? Wasn't Brawl? Wasn't Smash 4? Hasn't he thought about retiring like seven times at least? Wasn't he not working on a Smash game when he was already drafting Smash Ultimate? The only time it was worth taking him on his word was about no more fighters after FP2, and even then his legacy of never standing by his words left people thinking he was full of it. This was actually the exception to the rule of 'Sakurai never sticks to what he says'.

Also, it's not tiring, it's a fact of life that companies will force things that make them profit over what people are asking for, up until it stops making them more money than it does angry social media posts. Let me Direct (haha) your attention to the prior DLC that Sakurai, as far as we know, had full or mostly full creative control over: . Huh, crazy: we got three veterans when it was clear there was demand for them and Mewtwo was essentially the face of veteran returns demands at the time, Mr. Fighting Games, Mr. Final Fantasy, the one shill pick that he gave into but originally didn't wish to include, and Too Sexy For Her Invite.

Now, move over to Ultimate, where Sakurai openly stated more than once that it's basically out of his hands and into corporate Nintendo's...and what did we get? A legacy fighting game character Smash-only nerds weren't even cultured enough to know who he was (and thus never asked for him), literally the last thing anyone would have asked for and is clearly shilling their most recent success in the FE series, Noodlegirl from her dead first party game, pressured by his peers to include the block man from the most-played game on the planet (that's not shilling at all, and the sales of Ultimate DEFINITELY don't reflect that), sexy waifus to push our newest hit RPG, and OPENLY ADMITING TO PRESSURE FROM NINTENDO TO INCLUDE TEKKEN. Hell, even Joker, Hero, Sephiroth and Sora all pop big N-shaped dollar signs into the investors' eyeballs, but among these there was various amounts of support for extended periods...and yes, I know Steve got REAL support during Ultimate's run, but none of it matters because he was always gonna happen even if no one talked about it or supported it...and Sephy is damn close to that level as well.

One of these DLC sessions is much more in tune than the other, and there is clear evidence that one had more corporate fingers in the pot than the other. Is it really presumptuous when we have evidence that suggests it as truth? Also, that's wild that you would think that you wouldn't want control over something you created that millions of people love, regardless of the workload and stress that comes from it, ESPECIALLY when you feel as though you are the only one who can do it right and the fans think the same way. Smash has just gotten as big as it was always destined to be, and Sakurai was likely rushed for most of Ultimate. He loved the journey throughout, and he's likely just decompressing vocally.

It's like when you love your family or job that you invest your very being into, but vent to someone close about all the hardships you go through due to it, yet you wouldn't change a thing. Just replace that with a game series that sold 25 million units as of September and someone close with reporters coming through the woodwork.

Dude, we get it, you're a Geno fan.

You don't need to keep making low-effort jabs at all DLC characters other than Banjo to prove it.

 

[dream1ng]

To be fair, it's a Switch game. Being a Nintendo-published game on it means you're guaranteed to be a much bigger commercial success than on the Wii U by default.

Of course, but the point is more that Paper Mario is not suffering commercially under its change of direction, which won't exactly ignite a fire under Nintendo to return to its original formula.

 

[Yamat08]

To be honest, I think an individual game with Subspace's gameplay would be more likely at this point, given how many characters there are to focus on, but I'd be more than content with having a mode like it with another Smash game.

Like someone pointed out in another thread, Brawl probably would've received more content overall and most of the scrapped characters (forbidden 7, Krystal, and maybe Mega Man) would likely be playable.

Subspace certainly had enough content that it could be a full game in its own right, so this doesn't seem unfeasible. I could especially see it working if this separate game is able to share the DLC with Ultimate, and possibly share the save files as well (particularly if Spirits replace Stickers, they could just let us use the ones we already got in Ultimate).

 

[Geno Boost]

Rest assured, we all wish he wasn't owned by Activision...

it’s kinda weird when some people no longer want Crash in smash due to horrible things happening in Activision because the reality is many companies are corrupt like Disney and Ubisoft and Konami but people didn’t give up on supporting Sora and Rayman and Bomberman for smash.
Majority of people just move on and most people who play video games don’t care about companies problems they just want to enjoy their games and want to see more.

 

[Dinoman96]

it’s kinda weird when some people no longer want Crash in smash due to horrible things happening in Activision because the reality is many companies are corrupt like Disney and Ubisoft and Konami but people didn’t give up on supporting Sora and Rayman and Bomberman for smash.
Majority of people just move on and most people who play video games don’t care about companies problems they just want to enjoy their games and want to see more.

All corporations are bad, but the **** Activision Blizzard has done is way, way worse.

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

All corporations are bad, but the **** Activision Blizzard has done is way, way worse.

EA is basically Underworld of Gaming.
EA is so bad that it wasn't Represented in Smash.

 

[Geno Boost]

EA is basically Underworld of Gaming.
EA is so bad that it wasn't Represented in Smash.

We already have 2 EA reps in smash and it’s basically
Vs

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

We already have 2 EA reps in smash and it’s basically
Vs

Dude, those are not EA Reps.
Piranha Plant is Nintendo.
Zombie is Mojang/Microsoft.

 

[Butters Stotch]

We already have 2 EA reps in smash and it’s basically
Vs

Am I the only one here that dislikes the choice of Piranha Plant. I get that it was included as a bonus DLC fighter and its main purpose is the shock factor from its reveal, but, outside of that, I don't think it has much going for it and I think someone else could've taken its place, joke character or not. Sorry if this sounds salty or whatever, I just wanted to get this off of my chest.

 

[Guynamednelson]

it’s kinda weird when some people no longer want Crash in smash due to horrible things happening in Activision because the reality is many companies are corrupt like Disney and Ubisoft and Konami but people didn’t give up on supporting Sora and Rayman and Bomberman for smash.
Majority of people just move on and most people who play video games don’t care about companies problems they just want to enjoy their games and want to see more.

Having accidentally gave my money to Disney is actually one of many things that irritates me about Sora's inclusion.

 

[Geno Boost]

Am I the only one here that dislikes the choice of Piranha Plant. I get that it was included as a bonus DLC fighter and its main purpose is the shock factor from its reveal, but, outside of that, I don't think it has much going for it and I think someone else could've taken its place, joke character or not. Sorry if this sounds salty or whatever, I just wanted to get this off of my chest.

I don’t like it too I feel that takes the place of retro rep which is the shocking factor that people are looking for a character such as Sukapon, Mach Rider, Harry (teleroboxer), Lip, Takamaru, Hakkun should have taken that “shocking factor” spot instead we haven’t got any new retro rep in ultimate

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

I don’t like it too I feel that takes the place of retro rep which is the shocking factor that people are looking for a character such as Sukapon, Mach Rider, Harry (teleroboxer), Lip, Takamaru, Hakkun should have taken that “shocking factor” spot instead we haven’t got any new retro rep in ultimate

We could get ExciteBiker instead of Boring Plant!
ExciteBiker is far more iconic to join Smash.

 

[Dinoman96]

Am I the only one here that dislikes the choice of Piranha Plant. I get that it was included as a bonus DLC fighter and its main purpose is the shock factor from its reveal, but, outside of that, I don't think it has much going for it and I think someone else could've taken its place, joke character or not. Sorry if this sounds salty or whatever, I just wanted to get this off of my chest.

My one problem with it is that it's just another Mario character. The other surprise/"shock value" characters like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B and Duck Hunt were more interesting to me because they were from new and unrepresented universes and thus brought in new stages (well besides R.O.B. lmao) and music.

 

[Butters Stotch]

My one problem with it is that it's just another Mario character. The other surprise/"shock value" characters like Game & Watch, R.O.B and Duck Hunt were more interesting to me because they were from new and unrepresented universes and thus brought in new stages (well besides R.O.B. lmao) and music.

Personally, I think Toad/Captain Toad would've been a better choice for an extra Mario character. I would've added him before Rosalina if I'm gonna be honest.