nah joker’s great
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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread
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Gengar84
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I have a few ideas for some of mine. Keep in mind, I’m strictly a casual player so I don’t have a ton of mechanical knowledge how to properly balance a character for competitive play but I love coming up with general concepts for movesets for my favorite characters. I try to think at least a bit on each character’s strengths, weaknesses, and overall gameplay style but I’m sure they could all be fleshed out with proper stats and percentages. For most of these, I’ve written a pretty extensive moveset for each attack, taunt, and victory animation as well as things like outfits, music, and stage selection if anyone is interested in seeing more but this is a general overview regarding weaknesses.
One idea for the Battletoads is to limit their powerful limb transformations only at targets over 100% damage. In some games, they only transform their limbs as finishing blows so their standard Smash attacks before that point could be in the weaker side but get hugely powered up once the opponent reaches that threshold. The transformation attacks would be a bit slower to come out but have crazy damage and knock back potential which can easily finish off any opponent at that health. The toads are strictly melee based so none have any projectiles. Their closest option is a speeder bike that functions similarly to Wario’s motorcycle.
Zegram is a slower more powerful swordsman like Ike so he would share many of the same weaknesses. Unlike Ike, Zegram has a shuriken projectile that would follow a similar homing trajectory as Palutena’s attack. However, the drawback with this one is that there’s a cooldown after using the projectile after a certain amount. The cooldown can be sped up by shielding.
For Illidan, he could be a very large target with relatively low defensive stats. Despite his large size comparable to Ganondorf, he is surprisingly agile. He’s still a massive target and is susceptible to combo attacks. He could make up for this with his powered up state that drains a portion of the opponents health when connecting with attacks. The powered up state could trigger automatically in a similar way to Sephiroth’s and Joker’s and he’d gain an extra jump like Sephiroth due to spawning wings. This form is an even larger target though.
Similarly, Raziel could constantly lose a small amount of health but be able to heal himself a large amount when knocking out an opponent. This would mirror the gameplay in Soul Reaver but would need to be balanced properly so he isn’t useless or overpowered. It would be tricky but would make for a really interesting character gameplay wise.
Kerrigan would have a resource management system similar to Hero’s MP that she can use to summon various Zerg units for her specials. The only special that would be able to be used without needing the resource is her recovery. Since she specializes in traps and summoned units to fight, her actual fighting potential herself would be on the weaker side. She still has good options using her own abilities but she’ll need to fall back on summoned units to compete at a higher level.
Magus would specialize in long range magical and scythe attacks. To balance this, he could be very similar to Sephiroth having poor defensive stats and close range options. His elemental magic attacks would cycle like Sora’s so you’d have to plan out when to use each attack to get the one you want at the right time.
Bill Rizer could have similar poor defenses as he pretty much exclusively fights with projectiles and you die in one hit in Contra. He could switch his guns like Shulk does for his buffs which all have different strengths and weaknesses, but they affect all of his A moves. Most guns just rack up damage so he’d have to rely on Smash attacks for KOs. All jabs, tilts, and aerials use his selected gun as a projectile that can be fired in eight directions but the only gun with any knockout potential is his Crush gun. His Smash attacks would include a few melee strikes which could pick up KOs and some of his specials can as well.
Alphen would be a very powerful sword user but many of his attacks would have an option to hold the button to drain his own health for increased damage and knock back. He could swap in to Shionne once his health gets low who is a quick long ranged fighter who excels in healing magic. Shionne has very few KO options and is mostly great at dealing quick damage and healing. She’ll need to switch back to Alphen for reliable KO’s. This would need to be balanced correctly but the two really play well ofc each other.
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MasterCheef
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chocolatejr9
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Weak points? Hm... I guess for some of mine, that would depend on how exactly the character is incorporated into Smash. For example, my idea for Billy Hatcher (sorry for bringing him up again) revolves a LOT around the egg rolling mechanics. In the original game, Billy is largely useless without an egg, so maybe incorporate that somehow?
Also, for some reason this reminded me of BrawlFan1's moveset for Monokuma, where all his specials are randomised as a reference to his overall random nature... including him randomly exploding if you attack him. I doubt they'd go THAT far, but the thought is weirdly funny to me.
Hadokeyblade
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Laniv
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Toad: Toad is a quick, hard-hitting character who is very good at closing the gap and dealing high amounts of damage. However, he struggles against zoners (especially swordfighters), resulting in an over-reliance on his Poison Mushroom to cover his approach. In addition, he has low jumps and some of his most potent finishers have a fair amount of endlag.
King Boo: The Mewtwo Dilemma to the extreme: he'd be a big target (say around the size of Bowser or Dedede), but would be one of the lightest characters around, forcing him to rely on his intangibility mechanic to survive. Think like an inverse of K. Rool.
Bandana Dee: Long thin hitboxes, combined with poor range compared to other swordfighters, makes for a character that's deceptively difficult to kill with.
Tom Nook: The way I imagined him, he would have a Bell mechanic, where he gains Bells the more he attacks foes, growing more powerful as a result. The obvious drawback is that he'd be much weaker without any Bells; as such, while he's very good at keeping momentum should he gain the advantage, he quickly falls apart should he fall behind.
seems pretty ordinary for high school to me
Gengar84
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You know who I’d love in Smash but I can’t come up with a good way to balance? Lu Bu from Dynasty Warriors. In his game, Lu Bu is very fast and powerful with a huge halberd weapon and specializes in crazy combos. I’m not sure how to tone that down for Smash while still feeling true to character.
smashkirby
Smash Hero
Ngl, this selection of characters really speaks to me. Like, if I'm being TOTALLY honest? I can't say that I would mind any of these folks making it into Smash one day.Yeah, with all due respect, the likes of Layton, Rayman, Phoenix Wright, Lloyd, etc definitely feel like relics from an era where we thought the only third parties that had a shot were Nintendo adjacent ones, with Snake being the only exception due to the Kojima thing, who got cut anyways.
Lest we forget:
Two days before my Birthday, I'll take it.January 17 Nintendo direct date prediction
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Oracle Link
Smash Master
Im still wondering if indie characters that were designed for videogames but repurposed for a comic Because the Creator couldnt make a game count as videogame characters to you guys?
I mean im fine with VSM Never joining smash i just think he definitly counts as a videogame Character heck his name is literally VIDEOGAME-MAN in german! (than again hes an AU Version of me so maybe thats the issue?) He was 100% Designed for a videogame!
Okay technically i first inventedhim for the playground but so much of the finer Details were planned for games! His Abilitys Level Enemys and co. All Designed for a videogame! I dunno saying he isnt a game character (if i ever make a game) Because i werent able to programm seems pretty dumb!
And yeah this whole blurb applys to every indie case like this!
I mean imagine if toby fox for example couldnt program so he had to make undertale a comic! (it still has most of the gamey elements)
Than People say "ITS NOT A VIDEOGAME FRANCHISE" After a game was made? Like dude the entire premise is based on videogame mechanics why would a desparation move nullify that?
Again i have no real hopes for vsm joining smash nor really any desire (although the mii swordfighters have a really cool vsm Preset) I think of this more as just on principal!
On a diffrent topic...
Any non Character or stage wishes for the next game?
I mean im fine with VSM Never joining smash i just think he definitly counts as a videogame Character heck his name is literally VIDEOGAME-MAN in german! (than again hes an AU Version of me so maybe thats the issue?) He was 100% Designed for a videogame!
Okay technically i first inventedhim for the playground but so much of the finer Details were planned for games! His Abilitys Level Enemys and co. All Designed for a videogame! I dunno saying he isnt a game character (if i ever make a game) Because i werent able to programm seems pretty dumb!
And yeah this whole blurb applys to every indie case like this!
I mean imagine if toby fox for example couldnt program so he had to make undertale a comic! (it still has most of the gamey elements)
Than People say "ITS NOT A VIDEOGAME FRANCHISE" After a game was made? Like dude the entire premise is based on videogame mechanics why would a desparation move nullify that?
Again i have no real hopes for vsm joining smash nor really any desire (although the mii swordfighters have a really cool vsm Preset) I think of this more as just on principal!
On a diffrent topic...
Any non Character or stage wishes for the next game?
RileyXY1
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It's weird how we're soon going to be entering the final stage of the Switch's lifespan.January 17 Nintendo direct date prediction
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That's...still not a video game. It's a webcomic. That's pretty damn cut and dry, "not eligible."
If the creator wanted to make a game, couldn't, and made a comic...they made a comic. Not a video game.
Gengar84
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My main two wishes are another big co-op adventure like Subspace Emissary with actual platforming which World of Light lacked and an improved stage builder. I had a lot of fun with the one we have but there’s still a ton of room for improvement.
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osby
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That doesn't sound hard to me.
For starters, give him a weak air game so even if he has strong combos, he can't use them everywhere. Then make him a heavy fighter with a subpar recovery so that he's not invisible. Or you can make his moves slow to come out so he has to take advantage of their low endlag or some kind of cancel/chain mechanic.
chocolatejr9
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So basically have him play like he does in Dynasty Warriors?
(I say as somebody whose never played Dynasty Warriors...)
Louie G.
Smash Hero
Chorus Kids - Seeing that there are three of them and they copy one another's actions, they would be a relatively big long target susceptible for catching strays and being combo food. Additionally, their strongest attacks have specific timing that needs to be executed so that may become predictable for those who are used to fighting against them. Essentially to beat them you need to be in tune with their rhythm, and start playing their game along with them. Once you learn how to do that many of the attacks become fairly easy to manage. Probably one of the slowest characters in the game too.
Arle - Arle would be a character who prioritizes verticality, something a bit unorthodox in Smash. As such her projectiles may have less horizontal range than your typical zoner, and she has some trouble killing off the sides unless she goes deep offstage. Her Puyos have good gimping potential but are not kill moves. She is much more focused on stage control and setup than simple kill power, so her juggling and silly tactics are counterbalanced by low KO potential outside of her central finishing move, a Garbage Puyo which can only be summoned after particular conditions are met (making chains / combos).
A lot of them are very fun, eclectic choices so for that matter I kind of miss the era where our (self-inflicted) limitations made us more creative. On the other hand, it's just a little embarrassing that Little King Story and Plok were getting a nod here over Dragon Quest, Shin Megami Tensei, Puyo Puyo or Minecraft. Strange omissions seeing how all of these did have a tight relationship with Nintendo already, among others with more dubious connection.
Genuinely all of those are pretty cool picks, and granted none of these SUPER weird ones were ever really a popular point of conversation, but I think it says something about the fanbase's neglect and short-sightedness. Like all those are here just because they were Nintendo exclusive at some point, that's the kind of logic many of us were operating on. But in a vacuum, give me Plok music in Smash please.
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Gengar84
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That’s a good idea and it makes a lot of sense. Dynasty Warriors is mostly ground based though the characters do have a few aerial attacks. Giving him a weaker air game and recovery could help with balancing him. Hopefully they’d do a better job than with Little Mac but I think Lu Bu’s strengths probably outweigh Mac’s. Hope that wouldn’t mean he’s even more unbalanced between ground and air.
If anyone is curious how he fights (or just Warriors characters in general), here’s a good video showing off his attacks:
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Scrimblo Bimblo
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I was thinking that Zelda might finally get a new character next game in the form of Rauru.
To be honest, I wouldn't jump out of my chair for him or anything (I want Skull Kid dammit), but it just feels like the stars are aligning for him.
-Link's powers in TotK come from his arm, so pulling a Rosalina here feels very natural,
-Adding him lets you represent TotK while keeping Link in his BotW version (which I think is always going to be more iconic),
-The TotK powers lend themselves decently well to a Smash moveset, and are the most important and appreciated part of the game.
I think Rewind would be a counter of sorts, but it reverses the opponent's animation, leaving them open. Ascend is clearly an up B, maybe make it so it only lets you go a tiny bit into the air if you're not under a platform, and make it slightly angleable so it's not completely useless in most competitive stages. It could also lets you go through walls, why not?
Ultrahand and Fuse are a little harder to work with, Ultrahand I think could work similarly to Rosalina's Gravitational Pull but at a longer range, and Fuse I dunno maybe you could attach an item, or even a projectile, to your arm and its hitbox gets added to that of your moves? So if you use it on a beam sword you just get a slight range increase, and if you use it on a hammer it's GG... I'm sure the Smash team can come up with something better.
Plus he could fill his A moves with all those crazy Zonai devices you find in the game. Laser shooter, fan, wheel, fire emitter, there's just a ton of stuff to use.
But anyways, yeah implementing Rauru like this seems like a no brainer to me.
I haven't really liked TotK that much, to me it felt like BotW again but with a ton more busywork, though the game has been generally well-received and I think seeing those abilities in a more action-oriented context could be cool.
Maybe pair him with a more classic character and it's perfect!
To be honest, I wouldn't jump out of my chair for him or anything (I want Skull Kid dammit), but it just feels like the stars are aligning for him.
-Link's powers in TotK come from his arm, so pulling a Rosalina here feels very natural,
-Adding him lets you represent TotK while keeping Link in his BotW version (which I think is always going to be more iconic),
-The TotK powers lend themselves decently well to a Smash moveset, and are the most important and appreciated part of the game.
I think Rewind would be a counter of sorts, but it reverses the opponent's animation, leaving them open. Ascend is clearly an up B, maybe make it so it only lets you go a tiny bit into the air if you're not under a platform, and make it slightly angleable so it's not completely useless in most competitive stages. It could also lets you go through walls, why not?
Ultrahand and Fuse are a little harder to work with, Ultrahand I think could work similarly to Rosalina's Gravitational Pull but at a longer range, and Fuse I dunno maybe you could attach an item, or even a projectile, to your arm and its hitbox gets added to that of your moves? So if you use it on a beam sword you just get a slight range increase, and if you use it on a hammer it's GG... I'm sure the Smash team can come up with something better.
Plus he could fill his A moves with all those crazy Zonai devices you find in the game. Laser shooter, fan, wheel, fire emitter, there's just a ton of stuff to use.
But anyways, yeah implementing Rauru like this seems like a no brainer to me.
I haven't really liked TotK that much, to me it felt like BotW again but with a ton more busywork, though the game has been generally well-received and I think seeing those abilities in a more action-oriented context could be cool.
Maybe pair him with a more classic character and it's perfect!
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Gengar84
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I agree, Rauru makes a lot of sense as a newcomer. He’d be a great way to show off multiple Tears of the Kingdom abilities without having to completely remake Link. He’s also very important to the story of the game and has a really unique design. Maybe Link could go back to his classic moveset if Rauru has the newer abilities covered (I mostly just really miss his hookshot and OoT inspired design).
It’s been so long since we’ve had a truly unique Zelda newcomer that I don’t think it’s totally out of the question to get two brand new characters in the next Smash. My other pick would be Impa’s incarnation from the original Hyrule Warriors which was based on her appearance from Skyward Sword. I love her design in that game and she’s a ton of fun to play as. It would also give us some character representation from two unrepresented games in the series with HW and SS. I’d love it if she came with a bunch of music from HW as well since that game had an awesome soundtrack.
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DarthEnderX
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Gengar84
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I’ve heard rumors of a Final Fantasy IX remake and cartoon for a while now. That’s possibly my favorite game ever so that would be awesome if true. If that does end up happening, do you think we might see a FFIX character in the next Smash? Who would you choose if we did get one? You can’t really go wrong but I’d go with Garnet since she and Amarant were my favorites and we don’t have a summoner class in Smash yet.
id pick quina
Gengar84
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Quina could be a lot of fun. I imagine she’d have a copy ability very similar to Kirby but with a frame and weapon much closer to Dedede. Almost like a hybrid between the two characters.
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Noipoi
Howdy!
Sans only has one HP
And with Rayman, the lack of a neck seems like it’d be a hassle…
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Gorgonzales
Smash Lord
Bulborb is one of my most wanted characters, and I'd imagine it to be a super-heavyweight fighter with deceptively good frame data and combo ability for its weight class. Multiple factors would keep this character in check: its hurtbox is massive (probably the biggest in the game, slightly bigger than DK), and this is accentuated by the fact that most of its attacks aren't disjointed, putting its body front and center (bites, lunging chomps, head swings, stomps, etc). It also lacks any form of projectile, and its recovery is pretty lackluster too.
I recently drafted a moveset for Lanky Kong too, in which he's a skirmisher-type character. He excels most in the mid-range courtesy of his long arms, although he can hold his own in close range too (albeit it's not ideal for him). Even though he definitely has options for approaching (neutral B is a stretchy grab that pulls Lanky toward whatever his hands grasp, whether it's terrain or an opponent, and side special is a handstand-toggle that shifts his hurtbox to be much higher up despite him technically being grounded), his base movement stats are below-average, with sluggish ground movement and bad air drift making him rely on his specials to help bridge the gap. He can easily be overwhelmed against rushdown-type fighters too, and the fact that most moves that use his arms aren't disjoints makes it easy to punish him for missing an attack.
Roadhog is a unique long-range grappler that has multiple ways of forcing approaches. He can wrangle in far-away opponents with a well-timed use of his Chain Hook neutral special, or he can force camping opponents to engage by using his up-special, which makes him pull out his gas container and inhale from it, giving himself small heals that gradually ramp up the longer the button is held. His weaknesses lie in his recovery; as you may have noticed, Roadhog's up special doesn't grant him any height; it's his Chain Hook that's his primary recovery option since it can be angled in 8 directions and function as a tether. The move itself is very committal too, meaning a missed hook can make for a hard punish. He's also big combo fodder due to his large frame and high weight, and while his movement stats aren't bad, they aren't doing him any favors.
Please get rid of FS meter, because I'm certain that it's to blame for ruining Final Smashes as a whole in Ultimate. Brawl Final Smashes were so cool because so many of them were wildly different and actually took advantage of being in a platform fighter by affecting the battlefield itself and/or have areas-of-effects. Transformations were the coolest thing ever too, and while not all of them stuck the landing, the ones that did were extremely fun to use (I miss Wario Man, bros). I'm guessing to make FS meter work they had to cut back drastically on the variety of Final Smashes, which is absolutely not worth it since FS Meter is a fundamentally flawed idea to begin with for numerous reasons that I don't have the time to get into right now.
Everyone across both fighter passes might as well have the same exact finishing move, and this goes for a lot of returning veterans as well. Gone is all the dynamic interaction Final Smashes used to have, replaced with everyone in the match being forced to stop everything they're doing to watch the same exact 6 second cutscene that they've seen a thousand times before.... even moreso if you're playing with FS meter on.
My signature says what it says because I strongly believe Ultimate's Final Smashes betray what made them special in the first place; they were wildly different in concept and execution from moves typically seen in traditional fighters. Now, they've devolved into exactly that (or even worse, one could argue). A few cinematics like in Smash 4 are fine, but over half the cast has them now and it just makes me want to disable Smash Balls entirely.
Smash devs... If you want to make a cutscene, please dedicate that energy toward making the opening movie of the next game a completely original cinematic like what Melee had. That would be nice.
magiciandude
Smash Journeyman
Source: ZippoJanuary 17 Nintendo direct date prediction
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Nope
MrMcNuts
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Only for Snake's grab lol
HyperSomari64
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Okay. Easy.
Dixie: semi predictable recovery and not too strong KO power, maybe floaty even
Isaac: laggy. Specials might be slow, gimmicky or situational too even if true to source. Probably semi heavy and not too fast in the air.
Impa: Depends on what they go with? Probably close to Sheik, one way or another.
Monster Hunter: Lag worse than their online play
Who else I even wanted? I have a hard time with that as of late lol
DarthEnderX
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Vivi seems like the obvious pick. A fan favorite, who sports the look of the series iconic Black Mage.
Couldn't disagree more. The simplified FSs are the reason half of them are no longer annoying garbage.
There are still a couple terrible ones, like Peach/Daisy and Zelda. But overall, Ultimate greatly improved FSes.
As opposed to before, where you were forced to stop what you were doing and just run away from a transformation FS for 15 seconds.
The over-and-done-with FS cutscenes are WAY less tedious.
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Gengar84
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Yeah, I think Vivi is the most popular and is a great character but I’m not sure whether he’d be the most interesting from a gameplay perspective compared to other options. Although he wouldn’t be exactly the same, Robin, Lucas, Hero, and Sora all have various elemental magic, which is the black mage’s gimmick. I’d still be hyped to see anyone from that game including Vivi and it would be interesting to see what Smash does to make him stand out compared to other mages on the roster.
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MasterCheef
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How is this a source without a link ?
more importantly I expect a Nintendo direct in January & one in February
similar to 2017
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Zippo is just incredibly unreliable when it comes to leaks. Most of his predictions don't end up true.
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Guynamednelson
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Even disregarding the leaker, it's an alleged January Direct. We haven't actually had a major Direct in January for a long time.
I still wonder how the heck Zippo is credited as a leaker when they are a failure of one.
I wonder where they get their "leaks", anyway? The local weed smoker?
I wonder where they get their "leaks", anyway? The local weed smoker?
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HyperSomari64
Smash Master
Can't wait the day Zippo "leaks" about something ridiculous like SML: the Video Game.
Just ignore them.
Just ignore them.
LiveStudioAudience
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This Zippo leak seems somewhat opportunistic; were it not for the likelihood of the next console releasing this year (and the assumed potential shakeup of Direct schedules as a result) I doubt as many people would give him the time of day for suggesting a January presentation.
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At the very least, I could see one of the more popular skins as a Mii Costume.
Something like Peely, Fishstick, or Meowscles could work, or maybe the Cuddle Team Leader.