Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Oracle Link]

It actually gets under my skin seeing someone who plays a fighting game and doesnt have all the DLC characters at the ready. I get that some people just dont do that or dont have the money for it but man does it trigger something in me to see the roster of a game incomplete.

I play online with my cousin sometimes and i know for a fact that the only DLC characters he ever got are Joker, Sephiroth and Sora and it bothers me.

Granted there are cases like xenoverse were you have to pay over 100 Dollars for all the dlc!

Also heres two lego links:

 

[fogbadge]

Fun fact: The tip in Smash 4 that claims there's only 4 Zelda games with Link in their name?

They were NOT counting Link: The Faces of Evil. That should tell you all about the chances of CDI representation.

that and the fact that Nintendo have never counted them

 

[Louie G.]

that’s based on the thinking only sakurai knows

Not really, it's simply true that Sakurai doesn't have the authority to make those calls. He's not the omnipotent god who gets to strike down on any Smash project he doesn't like, that is something Nintendo's legal team is in charge of and Sakurai doesn't even work there.

 

[osby]

that’s based on the thinking only sakurai knows

You can't just accuse someone of destroying mod projects with zero proof and then go "who knows, it might be true" when confronted about it.

 

[fogbadge]

Not really, it's simply true that Sakurai doesn't have the authority to make those calls. He's not the omnipotent god who gets to strike down on any Smash project he doesn't like, that is something Nintendo's legal team is in charge of and Sakurai doesn't even work there.

You can't just accuse someone of destroying mod projects with zero proof and then go "who knows, it might be true" when confronted about it.

Guys I’m not saying sakurai is the one who’d do it. I’m saying if he knows the people who send the cease and desists do as well

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Clown characters in Smash are weird because a lot of them are already silly.
Aside from Plant, Ultimate also added Steve who uses TNT and literally drops anvils on your head, Banjo and K. Rool who do all kinds of slapstick stuff, and Isabelle also looks pretty hilarious. This cute smiling dog who just perfect shielded Sephiroth's sword slash.

I love silly characters but I'm not sure who I'd like to see next. Maybe Cranky if they go full old man gags, like if he mumbles to himself, hits you with folded newspapers and gets back pain.
Waluigi is funny, though I'm not sure how much Waluigi in an official Smash will be allowed to lean into his meme personality, with the air swim, the WAAA and all that stuff. He could also just get a sports-based moveset and that would be kinda meh in my opinion.

 

[Louie G.]

Waluigi is funny, though I'm not sure how much Waluigi in an official Smash will be allowed to lean into his meme personality, with the air swim, the WAAA and all that stuff. He could also just get a sports moveset and that would be kinda meh in my opinion.

Well the air swim is a pretty well established character thing, one of his consistent abilities in Mario Tennis. I agree that I'm not very keen on the sports moveset idea, I'd rather not have Waluigi at all if that's all they were going to do with him. So I think he really just needs to lean into his established personality as a scheming cheater with all sorts of wonky, goofy and "unfair" attacks. His lankiness allows him to contort into cartoonish poses, while also balancing with that odd gracefulness that he's displayed in many of his appearances. I think he's just an inherently funny character, and one who wears his very animated influences on his sleeves, so it's not hard to make a silly moveset based on those pre-existing elements without the fan-oriented "meme" part.

Maybe Cranky if they go full old man gags, like if he mumbles to himself, hits you with folded newspapers and gets back pain.

I meant to bring this up too, I'd love that. They already have him spitting out his dentures in Tropical Freeze, maybe lean into Cranky Kong as sort of an "old master" archetype of this seasoned fighter (think Oro from Street Fighter) while also playing into that silly old man element and having him stumble around like Mr. Magoo.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

#FreethePrincesses

 

[smashkirby]

#FreethePrincesses

View attachment 382548View attachment 382549View attachment 382550

Ngl, I'm a bit surprised that none of them (ESPECIALLY Princess Peach) haven't been added yet.

 

[osby]

Ngl, I'm a bit surprised that none of them (ESPECIALLY Princess Peach) haven't been added yet.

Wasn't there some talk about those characters' dresses being hard to animate/heavy on polygons, making them harder to implement?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Ngl, I'm a bit surprised that none of them (ESPECIALLY Princess Peach) haven't been added yet.

Only Melee characters (Peach and Zelda, not Daisy, I made a poster for her since she would be an easy echo/clone), that have never been cut from Smash and still have actively running franchises that haven't been added yet. Absence is starting to get really glaring.

 

[Dinoman96]

I suppose my hot take there is that I honestly prefer to keep seeing more original characters like Conker, Goemon and Marina in Smash Remix as opposed to more veteran backports, even if the likes of Peach, Zelda, Diddy, etc ought to be included. I remember being really annoyed how much of a dry spell going from Update 1.0.0 to 1.3.0 was because of there being no newcomers between Conker and Marina.

Funny enough we just got another veteran in the form of Banjo & Kazooie, but to give the Smash Remix team some credit, they seemed to have made many modifications to their moveset to make them feel more distinct from their Ultimate selves.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Wasn't there some talk about those characters' dresses being hard to animate/heavy on polygons, making them harder to implement?

Perhaps they could get creative....

Spoiler

If the dress exceeding polygon limits is what's preventing Peach, Zelda, Daisy, etc. from being added, maybe they could go with incarnations that wear either short skirts or trouser type outfits instead of the full length dress. (Basically any models that have legs instead of dress, just like the trouser wearing Mario, Luigi, Link, etc).

Now the most famous examples would be the Mario Kart biker suits for Peach and Daisy and the BOTW/TOTK trouser outfit for Zelda.

But this would obviously be way off period and after the N64 era, so in order to look for more period appropriate incarnations/costumes, we could go for the Mario Tennis/Mario Golf sports outfits for Peach and Daisy, which even have N64 models already. I'm presuming the short skirts wouldn't exceed the polygon limits like the full length dress would for the N64.

Zelda's a little more difficult since there aren't really any sports titles for the series, and very few mainline games have her without the full length dress during the N64 era or before, so we would have to look a little further into the spinoffs or cartoon shows. I've found that probably the most well known incarnations of her with either trousers or short skirts would either be the CD-I Zelda or the DIC Cartoon Zelda. (It would not only be a funny meme addition, but the CD-I games and DIC cartoon both had Zelda in a more active role than the mainline games at the time, so it would be fitting too).

Obviously at the end of the day, I would prefer their traditional full dress incarnations from Super Mario 64/Mario Party/Mario Kart and Ocarina of Time, but if they really can't get around the polygon limitations, these would be acceptable alternatives to not having them in the game at all, considering their importance.

 

[Will]

Assist Trophy idea:

 

[Louie G.]

I suppose my hot take there is that I honestly prefer to keep seeing more original characters like Conker, Goemon and Marina in Smash Remix as opposed to more veteran backports, even if the likes of Peach, Zelda, Diddy, etc ought to be included.

I think they nailed this balance when they revealed Marina / Dedede where you're getting one brand new character, and then another new take on a familiar face. I'm biased because those happen to be literally the two characters I wanted them to add the most, but I digress. Not saying how they should direct their project since it's free and I'm glad it exists at all, but this was the right way to do it IMO.

Because part of the fun is absolutely seeing how these established characters could have looked and played in Smash 64, something I had dreamed about for as long as I've been a fan of the series, really. But I love the way the Remix team has embraced the era that the game released in and takes it to another level, celebrating some of the N64's best titles through new characters who will likely only ever get this kind of love here. I'm not sure if they're completely finished yet, that last presentation certainly felt like it had some finality to it, but the available selection is pretty vast despite how specific of a criteria it is. And they went for some less obvious picks in the process, which I really really appreciate. The people behind this know their stuff.

---
To tie this back to the main series though, I suppose I'll ask this. Is there anything you guys think Smash Bros proper could learn from Smash Remix or other mods? Something that stuck out to me this time around is seeing that Ebisumaru can attack right out of Up B, which is something I really really wish more fighters could do in Ultimate since those combos look like so much fun. Certain fighters' whole gameplans would change if they had this extra approach tool and I personally think it would make the combat a lot more engaging.

I think I saw a mod recently that allowed Pit or Dark Pit to act out of theirs? Making an angled Up B a new approach tool and giving them way more movement, making them a threat that can chase you down in the air... for fairly "honest" and simple characters like the Pits I think this would give them some well needed spice, especially since as is that move really doesn't serve any other function than recovery. Not saying everyone should have it, but I can think of a few fighters who should.

 

[SPEN18]

One thing I'd like to see but don't think will actually happen is new up-specials for the heavy fliers Charizard and Ridley. Obviously, when implementing flying characters like these into Smash, concessions need to be made for balancing purposes, but I'd love to see these two use their up-specials to show off their flight capabilities a bit more. Just something with a little more visual flair is all I mean; I'm not arguing in favor of giving these heavyweights broken recoveries.

Kind of difficult to describe exactly what I have in mind with text only, but say for Charizard maybe a more sinuous, sidewinder-like action with greater back-and-forth lateral movement as he's bursting upwards, perhaps a menacing look with a short burst of fire if you reach the end of the move without grabbing a ledge, idk.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Ngl, I'm a bit surprised that none of them (ESPECIALLY Princess Peach) haven't been added yet.

I mean...Sheik is in the game.

 

[dream1ng]

I suppose my hot take there is that I honestly prefer to keep seeing more original characters like Conker, Goemon and Marina in Smash Remix as opposed to more veteran backports, even if the likes of Peach, Zelda, Diddy, etc ought to be included. I remember being really annoyed how much of a dry spell going from Update 1.0.0 to 1.3.0 was because of there being no newcomers between Conker and Marina.

Funny enough we just got another veteran in the form of Banjo & Kazooie, but to give the Smash Remix team some credit, they seemed to have made many modifications to their moveset to make them feel more distinct from their Ultimate selves.

I don't think that's that hot a take tbh. Newcomers just garner more attention and interest.

It's not that the newcomer is inherently a bigger character, but it's why a character like K. Rool being revealed for Ultimate would get more attention than Diddy being revealed for Ultimate. And why Diddy being revealed for Brawl would get more attention than Donkey Kong being revealed for Brawl. That's the reverse order in terms of who is "bigger", but newcomers drive engagement.

And, incidentally, as great as the EiH reveal was, I think I personally prefer the other method of more regular reveals facilitated by alternating between newcomers and veterans. It's maybe less likely these days considering one big trailer is more shareable, but the consistency that, like, the Dojo had was very successful in keeping people hooked.

I imagine for the next game, there may be some mix of the two, since I suspect they want to maintain the virality, but also since there probably will be cuts, veteran reveals probably will be interspersed throughout the schedule rather than all at the beginning. Maybe vets will get like PP-level trailers, while newcomers still get the big CG ones. And maybe sometimes they can mix the two for a dual reveal, sort of like how Greninja's trailer handled Charizard.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I mean...Sheik is in the game.

Sheik and Zelda are separate characters from a gameplay/moveset standpoint.

 

[SPEN18]

Yep, I'm a big fan of drip-feed vet reveals leading up to launch. It helps a lot in spicing up speculation between the newcomer reveals, and gives a better impression of the roster as this massive puzzle that's gradually coming into focus. Also a big fan of working vets into newcomer trailers, like the aforementioned Charizard or like Captain Falcon.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yep, I'm a big fan of drip-feed vet reveals leading up to launch. It helps a lot in spicing up speculation between the newcomer reveals, and gives a better impression of the roster as this massive puzzle that's gradually coming into focus. Also a big fan of working vets into newcomer trailers, like the aforementioned Charizard or like Captain Falcon.

It also makes each vet coming back seem like a big deal.

I remember the night we got Olimar revealed for Smash 4 and we all lost our minds. (He was the first character revealed after the initial trailer.)


I don't miss people ****ting on vets though. That wasn't fun.

 

[fogbadge]

I remember the night we got Olimar revealed for Smash 4 and we all lost our minds. (He was the first character revealed after the initial trailer.)

In a positive or negative way?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

In a positive or negative way?

We were super hyped that we got an (at the time) completely unexpected reveal. We knew Olimar was coming back. We just didn't expect a reveal so soon.

 

[Louie G.]

It also makes each vet coming back seem like a big deal.

It was funny when we got Luigi revealed in a Direct. We all knew he was coming back, but I couldn't help but be excited about it.

Sonic too, I wonder if we're going to see small showcase trailers for third parties next game like that one? It's kind of unprecedented at the moment, Sonic is the only third party character so far who has returned for a second game without EIH so I'm curious if that might be the standard for more spaced out reveals while still giving our guests a proper fanfare.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Sheik and Zelda are separate characters from a gameplay/moveset standpoint.

The hashtag is #FreeThePrincesses, not #FreeThePrincesses'Gameplay/Movesets

 

[Mushroomguy12]

The hashtag is #FreeThePrincesses, not #FreeThePrincesses'Gameplay/Movesets

Sheik isn't a Princess in her alter ego, she's only a Princess as Zelda. She's not called Princess Sheik.

Also, yes, I called the hashtag #FreeThePrincesses and not #FreeThePrincesses'Gameplay/Movesets, because the former is a lot more succinct and to the point while the latter is a really weird way to phrase it. A big reason being that the gameplay and movesets are naturally assumed to come with the character because they're a pretty important reason why you would want a character in the game to begin with, yes?

I could have called the hashtag #FreeThePrincesses'PolygonalTextures or #FreeThePrincesses'VoiceClips as well, but I didn't because why would I when its assumed to be part of the character already?

 

[dream1ng]

It was funny when we got Luigi revealed in a Direct. We all knew he was coming back, but I couldn't help but be excited about it.

Sonic too, I wonder if we're going to see small showcase trailers for third parties next game like that one? It's kind of unprecedented at the moment, Sonic is the only third party character so far who has returned for a second game without EIH so I'm curious if that might be the standard for more spaced out reveals while still giving our guests a proper fanfare.

I think the difference now is there are going to be lots of third-party vets (assuming most don't get shuffled to DLC, though some presumably will), more than they likely have spare Directs within the pre-release buildup. Especially because Directs are less common now than they were then.

Not that they'll need an excuse to just drop a trailer for a veteran, but I also don't think they'll have enough excuses if they're going to be spreading out the veteran reveals, which I think is probable. Any Smash Directs will knock out a handful of veteran reveals, as could regular Directs, but I think you may still have a surplus, especially should they be selective about crowding vets in events with newcomer reveals. I think they may have some sort of regular, timed updates (though less frequently than the daily Dojo and Miiverse) which sometimes just drops a veteran trailer.

The question is whether it will only be for third-parties. I doubt it. They already made short showcase trailers for every Ultimate character, and I think even many returning veterans would cause decent hype if and when the realization that not everyone will return sinks in. Especially if they have some change (even a minor one) to showcase.

 

[Gorgonzales]

As much stock as I have in old school YTP culture, I don't think Morshu or Harkinian have even a smidge of a chance of being acknowledged in Smash of all things. That influence only really exists in a vacuum, and one I'm unsure Sakurai is even aware of. Tingle is an obvious choice however - and hell, I think Beedle would be a fantastic choice too. Zelda has a few solid candidates for this.

Lanky Kong would be pretty hilarious, contorting and stretching into all sorts of unnatural shapes. Will toss my hat in the ring for Glass Joe as well, who we talked about recently and I'd still kinda love but I just need them to make Little Mac more capable before adding a second bad Punch-Out character.

And maybe even by some metric Waluigi could be interpreted this way. At least as a character with the amount of zaniness and unpredictability we see from someone like Ebisumaru, leaning harder into that gag anime villain / Wile E. Coyote sort of fold. That's my ideal route for him anyway.

For the record, I myself only thought that Harkinian and Morshu would merely fit the criteria of "the funny" character picks, not that they had any legitimate shot. I agree with you in that they almost certainly wouldn't happen and that Tingle is altogether the more relevant choice.

I also appreciate how you liked my Lanky Kong idea, which actually did get me thinking today... I threw out that character suggestion as a joke because he's the first character that came to mind, but unironically I think he'd be a fantastic character the more I think about it??

Sure, there are characters in Smash with lots of range. The Belmonts, Sephiroth, Min Min, etcetera, and one could argue Min Min already has the whole "long arms" thing going on for her. However, nobody on the Smash roster has Lanky's build. The way he moves and attacks is unlike most other Smash characters, and there are a lot more ways to utilize long arms as a method of attack than what Min Min does, which I feel could really OH FORGET IT LET ME JUST SAY IT OUT LOUD

MAKE HIM A LUFFY STAND-IN

ok maybe not that literally, but there is a lot of room to explore this idea. Look at how Luffy moves in Super Smash Flash 2 (if you don't know, then look up footage of him in that game). The ways he uses his arms is so much more expressive than Min Min, even considering that he doesn't use his arms for that many moves! I love his forward air in particular where he spins clockwise with his outstretched arms clasped and trailing behind him, before his fists finally rocket downward from the momentum and make for the nastiest spike animation you've ever seen in your LIFE. His side special where he reaches his long arms to an opponent before grabbing them as the rest of his body rockets forward to slam them is also a really fun move.

I'm not saying Lanky should have these moves exactly, but I think that Luffy serves as a proof-of-concept of what kind of fun a playable Lanky could bring to the table... and that's not even mentioning the many moves he can preform in DK64 to begin with. Combine that with original moves for Smash (I'm envisioning an F-Smash where he grabs the ground and builds tension by walking backward, anchoring every step his dexterous feet... before finally letting go and using his arms to slinghsot himself forward, delivering a devastating and satisfyingly-animated drop kick attack) and I really feel like Lanky Kong can be Smash's first true rubberhose character (sorry, Cuphead).

So, yeah. This will probably never happen, but it'd be cool if it did. Smash could use more playable Orangutans.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Sheik isn't a Princess in her alter ego, she's only a Princess as Zelda.

So when a cop goes undercover as a criminal, they aren't a cop anymore?

 

[dream1ng]

View attachment 382590

So when a cop goes undercover as a criminal, they aren't a cop anymore?

Well if they were undercover they certainly wouldn't want to be grouped with them

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I wouldn't like drip-feed reveals for veterans at all. Waiting two years to see Ness and to discover Lucas got cut was pure pain in Smash 4.

 

[fogbadge]

We were super hyped that we got an (at the time) completely unexpected reveal. We knew Olimar was coming back. We just didn't expect a reveal so soon.

hmm i do not remember that at all. i must have been in another part of the forum

 

[RileyXY1]

I wouldn't like drip-feed reveals for veterans at all. Waiting two years to see Ness and to discover Lucas got cut was pure pain in Smash 4.

Although that's probably what they're gonna do unless they decide to do Everyone is Here again.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Although that's probably what they're gonna do unless they decide to do Everyone is Here again.

I'm not so sure... Even with heavy cuts we're probably looking at 40-60 characters to announce + the newcomers. It really is a lot, you either announce a character every two weeks for two years or you kinda need to at least announce them in batches.

 

[Lionfranky]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/18zx9lv/microsoft_leaker_seemingly_confirm_hifi_rush_is/

Hi-fi Rush Switch port... It's interesting that MS is pushing its first party title on Switch. I don't know how much this would hint toward Master Chief Collection Switch or its successor port.... I actually thought about Chai in Smash. But, this actually boosts his chance. Chai would be rad in Smash. His specials would be summoning his friends just like in the original. I'm not sure how rythm timing mechanic would translate, but it would be interesting.

 

[fogbadge]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/18zx9lv/microsoft_leaker_seemingly_confirm_hifi_rush_is/

Hi-fi Rush Switch port... It's interesting that MS is pushing its first party title on Switch. I don't know how much this would hint toward Master Chief Collection Switch or its successor port.... I actually thought about Chai in Smash. But, this actually boosts his chance. Chai would be rad in Smash. His specials would be summoning his friends just like in the original. I'm not sure how rythm timing mechanic would translate, but it would be interesting.

intriguing. I liked the sound of that game. although I’m not sure I’d be able to get into the rhythm of the licensed music

 

[Dinoman96]

tbh I'm not really convinced Microsoft's gonna dump their actual AAA stuff like Halo onto other platforms like that. Right now, their support for Nintendo platforms (outside of the obvious Minecraft) has been smaller stuff like Ori and allowing Nintendo to distribute ROMs of old Rare games on NSO, and something like Hi-Fi Rush fits perfectly into that. A "case by case basis" as Phil Spencer or somebody else at Microsoft said some years ago.

Nate the Hate, the guy who kickstarted this rumor, even said as such here:

Xbox Game Studios + Bethesda + ABK | OTXVIII | Some Marketers Are Always Trying To Ice Skate Uphill OT

I wouldn't put it on the same tier as Halo/Gears but I'd put it higher than ADF. I wouldn't use the game in question as a barometer for MS' multiplat strategy, as it remains a case by case basis.

www.resetera.com

I wouldn't put it on the same tier as Halo/Gears but I'd put it higher than ADF. I wouldn't use the game in question as a barometer for MS' multiplat strategy, as it remains a case by case basis.

 

[dream1ng]

I'm not so sure... Even with heavy cuts we're probably looking at 40-60 characters to announce + the newcomers. It really is a lot, you either announce a character every two weeks for two years or you kinda need to at least announce them in batches.

Yeah, with an initial reveal trailer that will knock out probably like a dozen or so, a few Smash Directs that will each have a handful, routine vet reveals and probably at least as many years of DLC as Ultimate, if not more (but w/ more frequent reveals if vets are part of it), that will about cover it.

tbh I'm not really convinced Microsoft's gonna dump their actual AAA stuff like Halo onto other platforms like that. Right now, their support for Nintendo platforms (outside of the obvious Minecraft) has been smaller stuff like Ori and allowing Nintendo to distribute ROMs of old Rare games on NSO, and something like Hi-Fi Rush fits perfectly into that. A "case by case basis" as Phil Spencer or somebody else at Microsoft said some years ago.

Nate the Hate, the guy who kickstarted this rumor, even said as such here:

Xbox Game Studios + Bethesda + ABK | OTXVIII | Some Marketers Are Always Trying To Ice Skate Uphill OT

I wouldn't put it on the same tier as Halo/Gears but I'd put it higher than ADF. I wouldn't use the game in question as a barometer for MS' multiplat strategy, as it remains a case by case basis.

www.resetera.com

It is a case by case basis, but independently of this transpiring, it did seem like at one point they had the intention to at least look into putting Halo on the Switch. If fairly credible sources are correct. So any continued and increased support, while not meaningful enough to jump to conclusions, is at least auspicious in terms of possible... continued and increased support.

Every bit of growing patronage helps strengthen the hope of something bigger. But it is still just a hope. And should be treated as such.

 

[Oracle Link]

Nah this "true fan" bull**** is toxic as hell.
No one is a lesser fan just because they didn't buy a character that doesn't appeal to them.

Welp when it comes to the concept of true fan im like this about that!
Try To Be a true fan and you can be one!
Dont try and youre only the fan of 1 instalment or group of instalments! Aka Open World Zelda Fan still a fan just not a full/ True one!
Insult older fans while pushing an agenda aka if .... doesnt become a dog this Franchise is Dogistic makes you a fake fan!

I hope i could explain my stand on this topic without offending anyone!

 

[BuckleyTim]

This is aside from anything else, but I'm a bit saddened that Phoenix Wright's slim chances to be in smash kinda evaporated as it became clear that Smash could get pretty much any IP it set its mind out to get, Nintendo relevance be ignored. He's my most wanted Capcom rep but there's no way he gets anything more than a mii costume when we still have monster hunter, dmc, and resident evil on the shortlist. I mean, that's exactly what happened with Ultimate unfortunately. Here's hoping that the series gets to be AT'd or spirit evented in whatever the next iteration of Smash is.