Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

Welp!
Time to start campaigning on Dorin from Dragon Hooper for Smash.

by all means

I swear I’ve seen people suggest the guy from project hammer so there’s a precedent

 

[Kirbeh]

Welp!
Time to start campaigning on Dorin from Dragon Hooper for Smash.

Honestly, I'd be down for that. Treat it like Brawl Pit/Kid Icarus and bring it back with Smash in mind. Sort of like Smash's version of a Ruby Heart or Amingo in MvC2.

 

[HyperSomari64]

What other canceled video games or unused character you all want represented in Smash?

 

[RileyXY1]

Also, Sheik's entire design for Brawl and Smash 4 was based on a scrapped concept for Twilight Princess, where she was originally supposed to appear before getting cut during development.

 

[Kirbeh]

What other canceled video games or unused character you all want represented in Smash?

They should dig up Fire Emblem 64 and give us the lord from that game.

Uh, maybe stuff from Luna Blaze or Battland. Both were cancelled RPGs by HAL. Problem with asking for content from a canceled game is we don't even know what content there even is. It'd probably be easier to go with stuff with more details available. So probably cut content from games that did get released.

 

[Ivander]

how about farore the oracle?

I mean, she's not really cut content since she still appears in the other 2 Oracle games and Minish Cap.

I mean you could probably fill a book with cut content from any given game series, possibly several volumes for something like Mario. What should be given another shot, will depend on who you ask. If you want to go with a specific franchise to start with, we could do some digging around, or did you have something in mind already?

I mean, the Metroid Prime 1.5 stuff sounds like a really interesting concept and I think it'd work for a game. That one aside, if there was any cut content I was not happy about getting cut and not happening, it was Link's father and sister in the concept for Breath of the Wild. Man, I'm so unhappy about that one getting cut because of the amount of potential and characterization for Link it could've brought.

 

[HyperSomari64]

So probably cut content from games that did get released.

Spoiler

The human girl from Super Mario Sunshine's SpaceWorld 2001 build.

 

[Kirbeh]

Spoiler

The human girl from Super Mario Sunshine's SpaceWorld 2001 build.

As a background cameo for the Delfino Plaza stage or as a playable fighter?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As far as canceled characters go, with all due respect to Miyamoto's wishes... its time for WaPeach.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I still think Eggman should get in as a proper stance fighter, switching between a moveset with him in his Egg Mobile and a moveset with him on-foot, summoning Badniks to do his dirty work.

I'd rather see him as Boss in the Death Egg Robot.

so anyone wanna talk mallow?

He's lame.

 

[HyperSomari64]

As a background cameo for the Delfino Plaza stage or as a playable fighter?

The latter :v

Out of jokes, my MW for now will be Kotora from the Capsule Monsters prototype.

 

[Ivander]

As far as canceled characters go, with all due respect to Miyamoto's wishes... its time for WaPeach.

If she's anything like Miyamoto was expecting her to be like, considering Waluigi's resemblance to another notable character, I don't think we need her. Really, if we get an evil princess or opposite of Peach, I would like her to have some uniqueness and not be so similar to some other evil princess archetypes, let alone some other character archetypes like Doronjo, the wealthy rich Oh ho ho ho lady, etc.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

It look likes Geno's chances are looking up. Also quite surprising that Mario RPG is still the most popular Mario RPG to this day in Japan looking at launch sales.

Retail launch sales of the Mario RPG remake in Japan are the highest for any Mario RPG since the original game, and should be the highest of the series with digital. pic.twitter.com/eRquIsIobO

— Game Data Library (@GameDataLibrary) November 23, 2023

 

[smashkirby]

After the E3/Beta logo of Yoshi's Woolly World in Smash 4's Stage Selection Screen, I don't think Smash would ever represent scrapped content (this also includes canceled video games).

Well, there is Kirby GCN. No really. Apparently, digging into Brawl's files tell us that every Kirby character who appears as a trophy in Brawl was set to appear in that game, and supposedly, the Halberd's model is ripped straight from that game as well.

Which begs the question, what the heck kind of game was GCN set to be???

 

[Kirbeh]

If she's anything like Miyamoto was expecting her to be like, considering Waluigi's resemblance to another notable character, I don't think we need her. Really, if we get an evil princess or opposite of Peach, I would like her to have some uniqueness and not be so similar to some other evil princess archetypes, let alone some other character archetypes like Doronjo, the wealthy rich Oh ho ho ho lady, etc.

Waluigi wound up unique enough despite the clear inspiration so i don't really see the issue. Not like the other Mario characters aren't derived from existing archetypes. Dainty princess , spunky/sporty girl , heroic coward , and greedy scoundrel aren't exactly new but they're still their own characters just the same. Taking inspiration isn't the same as just copying, plus a character like Doronjo or the general oujo-sama trope would be something new for a main line/regular Mario cast member. If you think such a character should go in a different direction, I think that's fair, but any "unique" trait could be just as easily tied to an existing character or trope.

Well, there is Kirby GCN. No really. Apparently, digging into Brawl's files tell us that every Kirby character who appears as a trophy in Brawl was set to appear in that game, and supposedly, the Halberd's model is ripped straight from that game as well.

Which begs the question, what the heck kind of game was GCN set to be???

inb4 SSE really was just a retooled Kirby game all along, but stripped of the Kirby stuff and replaced with more generic locales

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If she's anything like Miyamoto was expecting her to be like, considering Waluigi's resemblance to another notable character, I don't think we need her. Really, if we get an evil princess or opposite of Peach, I would like her to have some uniqueness and not be so similar to some other evil princess archetypes, let alone some other character archetypes like Doronjo, the wealthy rich Oh ho ho ho lady, etc.

But i love oh ho ho ho ladies. Those are the best.

 

[Ivander]

Waluigi wound up unique enough despite the clear inspiration so i don't really see the issue. Not like the other Mario characters aren't derived from existing archetypes. Dainty princess , spunky/sporty girl , heroic coward , and greedy scoundrel aren't exactly new but they're still their own characters just the same. Taking inspiration isn't the same as just copying, plus a character like Doronjo or the general oujo-sama trope would be something new for a main line/regular Mario cast member. If you think such a character should go in a different direction, I think that's fair, but any "unique" trait could be just as easily tied to an existing character or trope.

Because in the case of Waluigi and Daisy, they had time to become more unique. When they first happened, Waluigi was....just Wario's partner in crime. Nothing really else stood out about him. And Daisy was practically Peach 2.0. Then the Gamecube games happened and they became much more unique as time went by. The same goes for Luigi too. A reminder that Luigi was also going through different personalities during the N64 era. Heck, in the same game as Waluigi's first, Luigi was taunting and about to go mano-a-mano with Waluigi. Far different from the Luigi we have today.
We have the characters we have today because of time and development. A WaPeach right now wouldn't have that, only what she is given for her time to shine. Which makes her first impressions much more important today compared to Daisy and Waluigi's first impressions back then.

And Archetypes aren't bad and obviously, they can be expanded upon to differentiate themselves from others of the same Archetype. But for one, just because something wouldn't have worked then doesn't guarantee that doing the same thing will work today. And two, having a character bring a new trope to the series doesn't mean it's going to be good or favourable.
Simply making a character and giving it a simple trope isn't going to suddenly make them appealing. Character design, character development, first and later impressions, connectivity, interaction, nowadays so much is expected from characters than just repeating something players are familiar with. It's not that I don't get why people want to see an opposite of Peach, between people wanting to see new Mario characters that are notably different from the main cast and especially after Bowsette.
But if they are going to make an opposite of Peach, rather than sticking to the basic books, this would be more the perfect time to twist and subvert expectations. Play with the players' expectations when they first see this "WaPeach" only to completely blindside them with more to this "WaPeach" than meets the eye.

 

[Kirbeh]

Because in the case of Waluigi and Daisy, they had time to become more unique. When they first happened, Waluigi was....just Wario's partner in crime. Nothing really else stood out about him. And Daisy was practically Peach 2.0. Then the Gamecube games happened and they became much more unique as time went by. The same goes for Luigi too. A reminder that Luigi was also going through different personalities during the N64 era. Heck, in the same game as Waluigi's first, Luigi was taunting and about to go mano-a-mano with Waluigi. Far different from the Luigi we have today.
We have the characters we have today because of time and development. A WaPeach right now wouldn't have that, only what she is given for her time to shine. Which makes her first impressions much more important today compared to Daisy and Waluigi's first impressions back then.

And Archetypes aren't bad and obviously, they can be expanded upon to differentiate themselves from others of the same Archetype. But for one, just because something wouldn't have worked then doesn't guarantee that doing the same thing will work today. And two, having a character bring a new trope to the series doesn't mean it's going to be good or favourable.
Simply making a character and giving it a simple trope isn't going to suddenly make them appealing. Character design, character development, first and later impressions, connectivity, interaction, nowadays so much is expected from characters than just repeating something players are familiar with. It's not that I don't get why people want to see an opposite of Peach, between people wanting to see new Mario characters that are notably different from the main cast and especially after Bowsette.
But if they are going to make an opposite of Peach, rather than sticking to the basic books, this would be more the perfect time to twist and subvert expectations. Play with the players' expectations when they first see this "WaPeach" only to completely blindside them with more to this "WaPeach" than meets the eye.

If you'd prefer a different direction that's all well and good, I was saying that the original concept is not inherently bad or worse than alternatives.

In regard to people's expectations, you also have to bear in mind that most people playing Mario don't know all the dev trivia like Wapeach having been a thing that was considered, let alone know who Doronjo even is, (or what the oujo-sama trope is either.) People's expectations for what a "Wapeach" would even be, are going to be wildly different, if they're even aware to have the expectation at all.

Plus, you could even do both the oujo route mixed with something else at the same time. She seems one way on the surface/when first introduced and you learn more about her character as time goes on. Well, as much as character background as Mario games allow anyway.

Personally, I'd like to see what they would've gone with. I also happen to like a few oujo/oujo-esque characters like Tron Bonne or Karin Kanzuki, so that would be fine for me.

That said, I'm not opposed to the concept being taken in a different direction or having a second character on top to do something different. I'm curious to know what you have in mind if you're willing to share.

 

[Ivander]

If you'd prefer a different direction that's all well and good, I was saying that the original concept is not inherently bad or worse than alternatives.

In regard to people's expectations, you also have to bear in mind that most people playing Mario don't know all the dev trivia like Wapeach having been a thing that was considered, let alone know who Doronjo even is, (or what the oujo-sama trope is either.) People's expectations for what a "Wapeach" would even be, are going to be wildly different, if they're even aware to have the expectation at all.

Plus, you could even do both the oujo route mixed with something else at the same time. She seems one way on the surface/when first introduced and you learn more about her character as time goes on. Well, as much as character background as Mario games allow anyway.

Personally, I'd like to see what they would've gone with. I also happen to like a few oujo/oujo-esque characters like Tron Bonne or Karin Kanzuki, so that would be fine for me.

That said, I'm not opposed to the concept being taken in a different direction or having a second character on top to do something different. I'm curious to know what you have in mind if you're willing to share.

Well, I don't exactly have anything particular in mind, since I'm more a "surprise me" person. But I think at the least, rather than going full "Peach, but not good." or "Instead of Bowser, it's this character, but it's straightforward, pretty much like if they were going after Bowser.", I'd just like to see an attempt at a more expanded character, much like what they tried to do with Rosalina before Miyamoto found out.
Although....ironically on the subject, I wouldn't be against a Mario game pulling a "Dedede in Kirby's Adventure" or even the game pulling an outright "Marx/Magalor". But then again, a 2D or 3D Mario game doing any plot that isn't Bowser up to his old tricks again would probably get good attention from people.

Probably why while I joke about a Super Mario Verse game, I wouldn't be against a "Mario-verse" game and how it'd allow a Bowser to still be the bad guy, but for once, the Bowser we know isn't the main antagonist and heck, could even play a helper role similar to Paper Mario and the Thousand Year Door.
Although the real twist of a Super Mario Verse wouldn't be Mario fighting an alternate Bowser or even the Council of Bowsers, it be that they were forced and commanded by an alternate version of the original Donkey Kong from the original Donkey Kong Arcade game.

 

[Kirbeh]

Well, I don't exactly have anything particular in mind, since I'm more a "surprise me" person. But I think at the least, rather than going full "Peach, but not good." or "Instead of Bowser, it's this character, but it's straightforward, pretty much like if they were going after Bowser.", I'd just like to see an attempt at a more expanded character, much like what they tried to do with Rosalina before Miyamoto found out.
Although....ironically on the subject, I wouldn't be against a Mario game pulling a "Dedede in Kirby's Adventure" or even the game pulling an outright "Marx/Magalor". But then again, a 2D or 3D Mario game doing any plot that isn't Bowser up to his old tricks again would probably get good attention from people.

Probably why while I joke about a Super Mario Verse game, I wouldn't be against a "Mario-verse" game and how it'd allow a Bowser to still be the bad guy, but for once, the Bowser we know isn't the main antagonist and heck, could even play a helper role similar to Paper Mario and the Thousand Year Door.
Although the real twist of a Super Mario Verse wouldn't be Mario fighting an alternate Bowser or even the Council of Bowsers, it be that they were forced and commanded by an alternate version of the original Donkey Kong from the original Donkey Kong Arcade game.

That's a neat idea, but I think that'd be an entirely separate matter from adding a more straightforward "Wapeach" concept. I wasn't thinking of a major Mario title to feature her in. It really was as basic as introducing her in a spin off as originally intended and then work on things from there.

Though your idea sounds like it'd be great for a Mario & Luigi game in particular imo. I suppose it could work in a platformer as well, but that sort of off the wall, crazy scenario feels more like something they'd do in one of the RPGs.

I had an idea in a similar vein, though not quite as ambitious as going through multiple universes. Just one bizarre "remixed" version in an M&L sequel or successor.

 

[fogbadge]

Also, Sheik's entire design for Brawl and Smash 4 was based on a scrapped concept for Twilight Princess, where she was originally supposed to appear before getting cut during development.

no. the design was made for brawl by the TP team. they never intended to use her in the game

 

[Perkilator]

Quoting from a new thread I just started, what bosses do you want in Smash?

For me, a few:

• Akuma as a rare example,of a fighter-sized boss
• Magician Type-0 where you’d have to hit him in his weak points
• Grima where you fight the hooded Robin on the dragon’s back

 

[Oracle Link]

how about farore the oracle?

Hey Farore is used she just got downgraded to racle of secrets!
she also appears in Minishcap filling the same role as din and Nayru!

I do wonder with the godesses, the draconified Zonai and the oracles there are 3 seemingly either reincarnated or unrelated character groups of the same name!

no. the design was made for brawl by the TP team. they never intended to use her in the game

Yeah i think it sucks that nopt only do we have a one off zelda transformation in smash she appears in 3 out of 4 games with a design which isnt even her own!
#Justice for Impa

 

[F^P]

Roughly speaking, what's the expected newcomers at this point? I figure Geno is up there (finally), some gen 9 pokemon unless gen 10 comes around first, I figure that Ogerpon is a good fit, and like that's all I can really come up with. Is there any others legitimately looking like locks this time around?

 

[UserKev]

Roughly speaking, what's the expected newcomers at this point? I figure Geno is up there (finally), some gen 9 pokemon unless gen 10 comes around first, I figure that Ogerpon is a good fit, and like that's all I can really come up with. Is there any others legitimately looking like locks this time around?

Waluigi is believably the major newcomer for Mario. Bandana Dee, Ashley and the Chorus Kids will probably be in the running. And Dixie Kong. The most likely bunch. Takamaru is seemly in the running for next retro, which this is honestly a pretty boring newcomer high probability for me personally.

 

[Dinoman96]

Waluigi is believably the major newcomer for Mario. Bandana Dee, Ashley and the Chorus Kids will probably be in the running. And Dixie Kong. The most likely bunch. Takamaru is seemly in the running for next retro, which this is honestly a pretty boring newcomer high probability for me personally.

What exactly makes Takamaru in the running for the next retro character?

 

[UserKev]

What exactly makes Takamaru in the running for the next retro character?

I said seemly in the running. He was noticeably popular in the speculation scene not too long ago and is basically the only retro topic I remember the most from that period. If not him, I would easily take Sukapon.

 

[Opossum]

Not gonna lie, pushing for representation of cut, unused, or cancelled content seems VERY outside of Smash's MO. That's less like a celebration of games and what people love about them, and more like pandering to fan wiki editors.

The absolute furthest I could see them go with it is like, making a reference to games that were cancelled, but then released much later on. In other words...just Star Fox 2 and Sky Skipper. That's the reasonable extent of it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Quoting from a new thread I just started, what bosses do you want in Smash?

rubs hands together

Mother Brain [Metroid]
Andross [Star Fox]
Arceus [Pokemon]
Porky [Earthbound]
Medusa [Kid Icarus]
Liquid Snake piloting Metal Gear REX [Metal Gear]
Eggman piloting Death Egg Robot [Sonic the Hedgehog]
Dr. Wily piloting Wily Machine [Mega Man]
Safer∙Sephiroth [Final Fantasy]
Astaroth [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]

 

[fogbadge]

Quoting from a new thread I just started, what bosses do you want in Smash?

oh you know, Fury Bowser, Dragon Ganon, Eternamax Eternatus, Death Egg Robo, World of Nothing, Ancient Sirehound, Hag 1, 02

 

[Will]

What exactly makes Takamaru in the running for the next retro character?

The process of elimination?

 

[Gengar84]

rubs hands together

Mother Brain [Metroid]
Andross [Star Fox]
Arceus [Pokemon]
Porky [Earthbound]
Medusa [Kid Icarus]
Liquid Snake piloting Metal Gear REX [Metal Gear]
Eggman piloting Death Egg Robot [Sonic the Hedgehog]
Dr. Wily piloting Wily Machine [Mega Man]
Safer∙Sephiroth [Final Fantasy]
Astaroth [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]

I think Eternatus would be another fun option for a Pokemon boss with its different forms and stages of the fight. If we only get one Astral Chain playable character, I think Henna Anderson would at least make an awesome boss fight in Smash.

 

[DarthEnderX]

oh you know, Fury Bowser

Fury Bowser should definitely replace Giga Bowser.

I think Eternatus would be another fun option for a Pokemon boss with its different forms and stages of the fight.

I'd still prefer Arceus. The final boss of the game bearing his name. And the god that created the Pokemon world. No other Pokemon can compete with that.

 

[Gengar84]

Fury Bowser should definitely replace Giga Bowser.

I'd still prefer Arceus. The final boss of the game bearing his name. And the god that created the Pokemon world. No other Pokemon can compete with that.

True, Arceus could be pretty fun too. It could potentially shift its type to a different plate throughout the fight and use a different corresponding elemental attack. Being the god of Pokémon and just jabbing as its own spinoff definitely helps.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Quoting from a new thread I just started, what bosses do you want in Smash?

Dr Eggman (Sonic the hedgehog)
Rayquaza (Pokemon)
Gilgamesh (Final fantasy)
Dr Wily (Megaman)

I find it kinda weird Wily wasnt a boss in Ultimate, they already had the model.

 

[Noipoi]

Quoting from a new thread I just started, what bosses do you want in Smash?

Arceus, Ultra Necrozma, Eternamax Eternatus (Pokemon)
Death Egg Robot, Giganto (Sonic)
Fury Bowser (Mario)

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Not gonna lie, pushing for representation of cut, unused, or cancelled content seems VERY outside of Smash's MO. That's less like a celebration of games and what people love about them, and more like pandering to fan wiki editors.

The absolute furthest I could see them go with it is like, making a reference to games that were cancelled, but then released much later on. In other words...just Star Fox 2 and Sky Skipper. That's the reasonable extent of it.

The fact that Star fox 2 got no content at all in Ultimate (no music and not even a Fay spirits) despite releasing in 2017 (the same year of Mario odyssey and Botw who got plenty of content in the game) makes me think that even those type of games they would be hesitant to give them representation in Smash.

 

[Sucumbio]

Alright Pokemon experts why is Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres together in a single legendary spirit? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[fogbadge]

Alright Pokemon experts why is Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres together in a single legendary spirit? Inquiring minds want to know!

by all accounts there is no reason. some might suggest it’s a reference to the manga when they were fused together but that’s a stretch

 

[Will]

Alright Pokemon experts why is Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres together in a single legendary spirit? Inquiring minds want to know!

I was going to say it was because of a themed Spirit fight but it’s literally just three ****ing Lucases.