No, I meant Ultimate specifically. Seriously; imagine not only what potential new custom specials you could give the veterans (even if you had to reuse the old ones) but the potential custom moves for the newcomers.
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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread
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DarthEnderX
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It's not actually a good idea, but when being forced to add 3 more Mega Man characters, it would be weird to ignore the entire EXE subseries.
Mega Man got picked over MonHun and Resi.
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Or just the Echoes alone. Like, that would've gone a long way for some. Daisy especially would've been perfect with some alternate moves.
Although at least Palutena had a few moves combined, so it was slightly used outside of the Mii Fighters. Possibly a few other ones here or there?
YeppersPeppers
Smash Journeyman
Mega Man had all those really cool unique customs in Smash 4 and now they're all just...gone.
Could've given one or two of those to an echo. Would've been nice.
Could've given one or two of those to an echo. Would've been nice.
Hadokeyblade
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Thats what smash already does lol
Ivander
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It has a music track and a Mii costume, things neither Legends or Star Force have in Smash.
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dream1ng
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Third-parties don't get picked based on recency anyway, they're not first-parties.
They get picked based on the impact of them or their series. Not influence, impact. So the size/success, visibility, familiarity, popularity, etc.
In Japan this may not be the case but in the west I don't think any other KT character has an overall impact on par with Ryu Hayabusa. In fact I think Hayabusa is the only KT character that isn't quite the longshot. Apart from perhaps Kasumi, the others just don't have the wide recognizability.
But Dead or Alive just doesn't strike me as a series Smash would opt for, both ahead of Ninja Gaiden, and as the next fighting game IP it wanted to include. Fortunately it is connected to Ninja Gaiden, and Ryu could come with DoA content as well.
They get picked based on the impact of them or their series. Not influence, impact. So the size/success, visibility, familiarity, popularity, etc.
In Japan this may not be the case but in the west I don't think any other KT character has an overall impact on par with Ryu Hayabusa. In fact I think Hayabusa is the only KT character that isn't quite the longshot. Apart from perhaps Kasumi, the others just don't have the wide recognizability.
But Dead or Alive just doesn't strike me as a series Smash would opt for, both ahead of Ninja Gaiden, and as the next fighting game IP it wanted to include. Fortunately it is connected to Ninja Gaiden, and Ryu could come with DoA content as well.
Hadokeyblade
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You have one thing confused, EXE has no music in smash, your thinking of Star force, which has its main theme.
Gengar84
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I was pretty hyped to see the new Contra in the recent Direct and it’s good to see the series is still kicking. I feel like that can only help in terms of Bill and Lance’s chances for Smash. The fact that we also got two League of Legends universe games makes me more confident in getting a LoL character as well. Finally, I just saw that we are also getting Tales of Arise DLC that I wasn’t expecting at all. I was beginning to lose hope in seeing Alphen and Shionne in Smash since the game would have been so old already by the time we see the next Smash but the DLC helps to keep the characters relevant.
Ivander
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Yes and no. It's the Star Force main theme, but it's the version arranged for Megaman.EXE Operation Shooting Star. The percussion is louder for the OSS version while the Star Force version is lighter. And when comparing the Smash version, it is the OSS version. Therefore, it counts.
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Noipoi
Howdy!
Okay.
Speaking completely realistically-
How good are Waluigi's chances next time around?
Speaking completely realistically-
How good are Waluigi's chances next time around?
Garteam
Smash Master
I'd honestly be shocked if he wasn't in. He's basically been the most requested first party by a country mile since Ultimate was formally announced and he was deconfirmed. Someone at the Washington Post was paid to write an article on his exclusion and the corresponding fan demand for his inclusion. He's got far too much popularity to not be included at this point.
I agree that Ninja Gaiden would likely out-prioritize Dead or Alive for getting a newcomer, but I still think Dead or Alive would certainly be on the table if there's an extended DLC period. DoA has a history going back to the Golden Era of Arcade Fightan' Games in the '90s, DoA 2, 3, and 4 were iconic titles in the Dreamcast, Xbox, and 360's libraries respectively, the series' frenetic, combo-oriented gameplay would give a DoA character a really distinct playstyle relative to the other Fighting game reps we've seen in Smash, and Ryu Hayabusa's popularity as a Smash request increases the possibility of Koei Tecmo characters generally for the next Smash. I know the series' sexualization would need to be turned down, but I don't think anything is too inherently risque when Bayonetta is a fighter. While I don't think DoA is necessarily a shoo-in, I still think it's in the running with the likes of Samurai Showdown, Soul Calibur, Mortal Kombat, and Guilty Gear as far as fighting game franchises go.
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MegaMan Volnutt does appear in MegaMan's Final Smash, if it matters. It has some notes(though few).
I'm not sure if you meant Legends had no representation or not, though.
Ivander
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We were talking about content outside of the Final Smash. Like music, Mii costumes, Assist Trophies, etc.
Spirits wise, aside from Classic and X, Megaman Legends has the most spirits if one doesn't count ZX alongside Megaman Zero. Battle Network and Star Force have two each.
Pretty good due to his widespread recognizability and popular appeal to both hardcores and casuals.
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dream1ng
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Depends how extended, and depends what Ryu Hayabusa came with. If he came with DoA content... I think that would really be an inauspicious sign. Though at the same time, I do think that's the likeliest way DoA actually gets content.
I think it would also be the first time that two connected (third-party) series newly got in during the same game. Obv there's no rule against that, but I wonder if it's something they'd be more likely to avoid for the sake of variety.
That's true, but there are a lot of series out there one can aptly sing the praises for. Yet it doesn't make them all top choices.
I agree most characters who would need some alterations for the good girls and boys aren't hugely hindered by that, and I don't think it would prohibit DoA either, but I do wonder if the more characters that need censorship (or omission), the more unlikely inclusion becomes.
Probably not for a series they'd be highly intent on including. Perhaps for one that seems less pressing. But who knows.
I agree it's on par with some of those in terms of likelihood, but mostly because I think some of those are also pretty unlikely. These might be the most notable remaining (original) fighting game series, but the genre itself really only has a few "big" IPs, with the rest being pretty niche. When you look at all the series out there, something like SamSho seems pretty small.
And I don't think we'll be seeing Mortal Kombat on the roster simply because of how it barely exists in Japan. Smash doesn't go for series like that.
I think the next most likely series in the genre are SoulCalibur and Guilty Gear, in part due to size, or popularity (including of characters therein), or standing. But even then I don't exactly see them leading the pack for next time. Though I think GG has an edge in that if they brought ASW into the fold, I think it's the likeliest choice.
I think Waluigi has a strong chance.
DarthEnderX
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Yeah, but ignoring EXE when you only have one Fighter makes sense. Even with up to 3 Fighters you could still justify it. But at 4, even EXE would deserve a bone.
Geno Boost
Smash Master
Recency isn’t everything
But the thing is Ryza and other tecmo characters barley has smash support compared to Ryu Hayabusa which I think Nintendo and Sakurai would be aware of
Oracle Link
Smash Master
Here a video showing you why (Bandana) Waddle Dees Are absolutly Great and deserve to be in smash!
toonito
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narrowed it down a bit
Here's a thought experiment. Give every third-party franchise in Smash (with a playable character) three more playable characters. You can draw from KoF for Terry and Namco's larger arcade catalog for Pac-Man due to the fact Pac-Man and Fatal Fury's representation in Smash already draws so much from these sources.
- Big Boss (echo), Raiden (Revengence), Gray Fox
i dunno, i think getting rejected three times in a row says something
dream1ng
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Recency isn't everything
But Smash support isn't either
Most third-parties don't get in due to Smash support. These days, at least. Most get in just due to big notable characters/series.
If you get in via Smash support, you usually have to be basically right at the very top, unless you meet and overlap with some other criteria being sought after. Ryu Hayabusa is popular, but not that popular. I think he'd get in just through being generally notable, which is he much more so than Ryza.
Says fourth time's the charm
I think he was only rejected twiceRecency isn't everything
But Smash support isn't either
Most third-parties don't get in due to Smash support. These days, at least. Most get in just due to big notable characters/series.
If you get in via Smash support, you usually have to be basically right at the very top, unless you meet and overlap with some other criteria being sought after. Ryu Hayabusa is popular, but not that popular. I think he'd get in just through being generally notable, which is he much more so than Ryza.
Says fourth time's the charm
dream1ng
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He was popular since Melee
chocolatejr9
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I think he's... likely. But I also think people are overestimating his chances. Yes, he's popular, but Nintendo themselves don't seem to care much for him. The fact that a character like Ridley, who at LEAST had a somewhat-valid explaination for why he wasn't playable, got in before him despite a) Waluigi NOT having an explaination for why he's not in, and b) Waluigi being from a much more popular and beloved franchise (no offense Metroid) probably says a few things.
Oh, and the whole "Sakurai added a potted plant before an actual character" thing. You could probably fit that in somewhere, too.
ok what i mean is them being give a deliberately different role from playable
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MasterCheef
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hmm , official , Switch 2 , leaks ?
www.notebookcheck.net
Nintendo Switch 2 console with camera possibly teased in Another Code remake screenshots
The Nintendo Switch 2 console may have actually been teased in some screenshots taken from the upcoming Switch remake of Another Code: Two Memories, which will be released as part of Another Code: Recollection in January 2024. The game’s protagonist has use of a mysterious device during the game...
www.notebookcheck.net
Attachments
Actually, this weekend my wife and I were playing when...
"Why is Daisy playable," she asked incredulously while scanning the select screen.
"I don't know."
"Well, where's Waluigi?"
"I don't know."
"You know nothing, Jon Snow."
But yeah I mean I really don't actually know why but I am guessing it's because Daisy was "easy" to make and Waluigi wouldn't be but still... kinda lame actually.
"Why is Daisy playable," she asked incredulously while scanning the select screen.
"I don't know."
"Well, where's Waluigi?"
"I don't know."
"You know nothing, Jon Snow."
But yeah I mean I really don't actually know why but I am guessing it's because Daisy was "easy" to make and Waluigi wouldn't be but still... kinda lame actually.
reminds me of when people thought the switch was leaked in a starfox animationhmm , official , Switch 2 , leaks ?
Nintendo Switch 2 console with camera possibly teased in Another Code remake screenshots
The Nintendo Switch 2 console may have actually been teased in some screenshots taken from the upcoming Switch remake of Another Code: Two Memories, which will be released as part of Another Code: Recollection in January 2024. The game’s protagonist has use of a mysterious device during the game...
Gengar84
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I think that’s exactly why. I think Daisy took significantly less development time being an echo than a completely original character like Waluigi. I personally view the echoes as bonus characters that don’t really take away any original character slots.
That said, I’m strongly in favor of echoes that likely never would have gotten in on their own anyways or their playstyles are very similar to their source character. I feel that characters that have unique gameplay potential and are important enough to make it in as their own should be unique (characters like Dixie and Impa). I’m also fine if these characters make it in initially as echoes due to time constraints as long as they are fleshed out in later games.
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dream1ng
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Ridley is Metroid's main antagonist, he's not some random. And he would've gotten in much earlier, probably as far back as Brawl, if his feasibility had not been an issue to Sakurai. Him getting in before Waluigi isn't weird, he never would've gotten as popular as he did if he wasn't seen as overdue.
Waluigi is from a more popular and beloved franchise... which is why that franchise has nine characters. Eleven if you count Wario and Yoshi. And at least ten of those eleven are pretty understandable for why they'd get in first, either importance-wise, or because they were easy clones.
The role that PP got was never going to go to Waluigi. Sakurai was deliberately looking for a surprise character. It's like saying "Sakurai added Ice Climbers before Wario". Because the slot ICs went for was allocated towards something Wario didn't fit.
The spot Waluigi could've had went to either Inkling, Isabelle, Ridley or K. Rool. It makes sense to me why Inkling and Isabelle took the spots they did. Waluigi is big, but they're big and central to their series. And Ridley and K. Rool got in due to fanbase popularity, of which they had more than Waluigi did.
Well but that gauge is a little flawed then if it only starts counting with Brawl, characters got passed over before then. Plus, I think Ridley got about as much as one could get in Melee if they weren't playable, which was a trophy and a role in the intro.
Daisy is playable for a very similar reason to why Dr. Mario is playable. They work as clones. Waluigi, not so much.
Yes, I agree. But as
Gengar84
points out clones should not "take slots away" because they're easy. Or easier at the very least. There's more to this story but what? Why is Wario stuck by himself? D:
Gengar84
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I’m pretty confident that we’ll see Waluigi in the next Smash game. The constant fan support really helped in getting both K. Rool and Ridley and I think Sakurai is aware of how many people would love to see Waluigi as well. Even if, for some reason, he misses again in the next game, he is almost guaranteed to be playable at some point in the future. He’s near the top of the list as far as Mario characters go and each character that makes it in before him is one less he has to compete with.Yes, I agree. But as
dream1ng
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Clones don't take slots away, they add slots. If a clone got in, an original character was never going to have that spot.Yes, I agree. But as
The rest of the story is this: Rosalina and Bowser Jr get in in 4 because they're also popular and prolific but actually present in the mainline games, which matters to Smash. Daisy gets in because she's a clone. PP gets in because Sakurai wanted to fill the surprise character spot, which Waluigi wouldn't have been eligible for.
Other than that, Ultimate had four (possibly only three, considering Isabelle isn't an echo, but she's not totally original either) spots in which Waluigi could've showed up, but was outclassed by the characters who received them. And his popularity didn't put him in the lead for first-parties until during Ultimate. Leading up to it, there were other characters more requested within the fanbase.
That's the story. There's no conspiracy. Waluigi is popular, but he's not clone material, and he's not present in the mainline games, which, based on how Smash treats spin-offs, gives the characters who do have mainline attendance an edge.
If he doesn't get in next time, then something might be up.
chocolatejr9
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Completely random, but does anybody have any thoughts on this?
There are many things I like about Phil Spencer, but his obsession with acquisitions isn't one of them.
— Stealth (@Stealth40k) September 19, 2023
This email was sent at the height of Switch's popularity. Nintendo would have laughed them out the room again. pic.twitter.com/MQhHerV4An
Lol yeah I read an article about that, just the thought of Nintendo being bought by anybody least of all Microsoft is frankly nauseating.
dream1ng
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The audacity to suggest Nintendo, at one of their most successful points at one of their most successful consoles, will eventually cave, leave the hardware sector, and be bought by a company that, gaming-wise, hasn't really had their **** together since (or before) the 360 is both insulting and impressive.
I think Microsoft needs to learn how to successfully put out good games at a regular clip before they concern themselves with any more acquisitions.
Gengar84
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Yeah, I agree. I do think it’s fair to point out that clones and echoes still take at least a little development time so it’s not entirely a bonus like I said before. I’m not sure exactly the comparison in dev time between an echo and a unique character but I would guess that we could probably get around five echoes for every one unique. Again, I could be way off but I that would be my guess.
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Though the irony is that in Ultimate, they were all intended from the start, never being a Bonus Character. Their development time is still like one, though(as in how little it takes, not exactly when each one is made. Richter was created with Simon, though any other Echo may have been during the tail end of development too).
Brawl was also like this, where all the characters were intended from the start(Seven didn't make it in. With Dixie being the only one explained). However, we only got new regular clones that were last minute in 64, Melee, and 4. So usually these Model Swaps are last minute. Though I guess 3 times out of 5 isn't that often to really mean much, heh.
At least with Brawl, even some of those just barely got finished in time cause of Sonic coming in late, which messed with development. Only Toon Link and Wolf were finished by that point among the newcomers, with Jigglypuff being a last second veteran. Notably only two of these are more straight clones(Toon Link is one to Young Link, using his data. And Jigglypuff is of course still one to Kirby to a pretty big degree. Wolf is the only one to be highly different among those).