Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

That would be sweet, honestly. Maybe they could also add that tabletop world from Epic Mickey that he lived in, along with the other forgotten Disney characters. It would be cool to see them all in a Kingdom Hearts game.

bearing in mind that some of the forgotten characters were in KH before EM

 

[HyperSomari64]

View attachment 376614
Welcome to the Zoid brigade. Join or be vanquished to the Void(berg).

Aw man! not MY Zoid.

(I blame my country's free-to-air television for making me discovering the franchise through the anime)

 

[CannonStreak]

bearing in mind that some of the forgotten characters were in KH before EM

Yeah, I figured that. I should have brought that up while I still could.

But yeah, seeing even more (including Oswald if they change their mind) would be sweet!

 

[chocolatejr9]

Tetsuya Nomura would put Oswald the Lucky Rabbit in Kingdom Hearts 3, but Disney said it's too difficult without clarification from the same. I would like to see how Sora would work with him or what Oswald's role would be in general. I don't understand why Disney thought it was difficult, I think he would fit in really well, this should normally be explained to us because it was "difficult" to use him in Kingdom Hearts 3, but I hope Disney reconsiders and adds him to the series Kingdom Hearts.

Considering one of the first things Bob Iger did after coming back as CEO of Disney was make a BRAND NEW Oswald the Lucky Rabbit short, I'd say it's more possible now than it was back then...

 

[Ivander]

Well lets throw in 6 for the other two then.

Okay:
Bandai Namco:

1. Pac-Man
2. Kazuya
3. Tales of rep. Likeliest chance is Lloyd Irving. Personal choice is Yuri Lowell.
4. Chosen Undead
5. KOS-MOS
6. Nightmare

Square Enix:

1. Cloud Strife
2. Hero
3. Sephiroth
4. 2B
5. Crono
6. Bub and Bob
7. *Sora
8. *Geno

* = Joint character with another company. Sora with Disney and Geno with Nintendo. As such, they are in their own spots compared to the other six.

 

[Arcadenik]

Oh, of course. If I may ask, does this mean that Urban Champ would be the 'main' character of NES Remix here?

More or less. Urban Champion, Balloon Fighter, and Excitebiker would be alts of “NES Remix”. I guess you mean default character, it could be any one of them.

 

[smashkirby]

More or less. Urban Champion, Balloon Fighter, and Excitebiker would be alts of “NES Remix”. I guess you mean default character, it could be any one of them.

Ah, I see. Wait, so what NES games would be featured within NES Remix's moveset? Like, would it just be Urban Champion, Balloon Fight, and Excitebike?

 

[TheQuester]

I wonder if Smash will have a retro slot again?
Ultimate didn't have one, but we can excuse that because of the limited amount of newcomers they could add base game, i hope we have a retro character next game, it was cool to have forgotten characters revived in Smash.
I think Takamaru or Bubbles would be cool to see.

 

[Stratos]

Considering one of the first things Bob Iger did after coming back as CEO of Disney was make a BRAND NEW Oswald the Lucky Rabbit short, I'd say it's more possible now than it was back then...

Do you mean there is a chance that Oswald will eventually come to the Kingdom Hearts series?

 

[fogbadge]

Do you mean there is a chance that Oswald will eventually come to the Kingdom Hearts series?

theres always a chance but it’s like there’s always a chance that chibi-robo will be in smash. best not get your hopes up

 

[Geno Boost]

Well lets throw in 6 for the other two then.


Bandai Namco:

Pac-man
Kazuya
Agumon (Digimon)
Cybuster (Super Robot Wars Original Generation)
Kos-Mos (Xenosaga)
Klonoa (Klonoa)

Square Enix:

Cloud
Sephiroth
Hero
Sora
Neku (The world ends with you)
Agnes (Bravely Default)

well here is my picks for those

Namco	Square-Enix
Agumon
Taizo Hori
Nightmare	Space Invaders
Lloyd	2B

 

[Opossum]

Considering one of the first things Bob Iger did after coming back as CEO of Disney was make a BRAND NEW Oswald the Lucky Rabbit short, I'd say it's more possible now than it was back then...

The short was released literally ten days after Chapek was ousted. Iger literally had nothing to do with the production of the short.

 

[CannonStreak]

My list, in response to a post from the last two pages are.

Capcom:

• Mega Man
• Ryu
• Ken
• Zero
• Chun-Li
• Jill Valentine

Konami:

• Simon Belmont
• Solid Snake
• Bomberman
• Richer
• Master Higgins (From Adventure Island)
• Goemon

Microsoft:

• Banjo & Kazooie
• Steve
• Master Chief
• Spyro
• Crash Bandicoot
• Doomslayer

Sega:

• Sonic
• Bayonetta
• Joker
• NiGHTS
• Dr. Eggman
• Vectorman

Bandai Namco:

• Pac-Man
• Kazuya
• Jin
• Nightmare
• Taizo Hori
• The Prince (Katamari)

Square Enix:

1. Cloud Strife
2. Hero
3. Sephiroth
4. Geno
5. Bub and Bob
6. Crono (Chrono Trigger)

That is pretty much my list.

 

[Sucumbio]

I wonder if Smash will have a retro slot again?

Do you or anyone know when a Retro slot was in the game and who filled it? I get confused over this cause ppl say different stuff.

Imho yes. Could be filled with anything from Pitfall Harry to the ghosts n goblins dude to shoot crash bandicoot. I'm guessing the issue with wording is that these characters would also fulfill a slot label such as 3rd party rep or in the case of Arthur, yeah...

Mostly I've seen Retro to mean specifically NES characters so... sigh Takamaru bc everyone else likes him lol never heard of the him before Ultimate and to me Tiger Heli is more "iconic".

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Do you or anyone know when a Retro slot was in the game and who filled it? I get confused over this cause ppl say different stuff.

Imho yes. Could be filled with anything from Pitfall Harry to the ghosts n goblins dude to shoot crash bandicoot. I'm guessing the issue with wording is that these characters would also fulfill a slot label such as 3rd party rep or in the case of Arthur, yeah...

Mostly I've seen Retro to mean specifically NES characters so... sigh Takamaru bc everyone else likes him lol never heard of the him before Ultimate and to me Tiger Heli is more "iconic".

The only time it got used was for Ice Climbers. Which was purely NES characters. Anyone on the same list would be Retro at least, but anyone else besides an NES character(which is at least a decent guide for its time) are questionable due to a massive lack of information.

A lot that look like it are more "surprise" characters(I.E. Duck Hunt, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B.) or are notable 3rd parites(Simon Belmont, MegaMan, Pac-Man).

Being an NES character isn't an actual straight criterium. We don't know what Sakurai means by Retro since it never came up again. Retro Design and "Retro by time" also are different things, making it more confusing. It could mean NES characters, those who are sprite-style 2D characters(3D style sprites do exist. Closely related to pixelart), or just "character from a certain set of generations back"(which the last one has no real set definition. I personally go with 2 back as the bare minimum, heh).

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I would not remove existing reps so:
Sega: Eggman, Ichiban Kasuga and Amigo
Capcom: Dante, Phoenix Wright and Amaterasu
Konami: Bomberman, Pyramid head and Raiden
Microsoft: Ori, Chai (from Hifi rush), Doom slayer and Dovahkiin (if you count Activision stuff, replace Dovahkiin with Crash)

And why not Square?: 2B, Tidus and Bub from Bubble Bobble

Since other users are doing it with Namco too and I forgot about them, I would add Lloyd Irving, Donchan, Haruka Amami and KosMos.

I wonder if Smash will have a retro slot again?
Ultimate didn't have one, but we can excuse that because of the limited amount of newcomers they could add base game, i hope we have a retro character next game, it was cool to have forgotten characters revived in Smash.
I think Takamaru or Bubbles would be cool to see.

You mean Bubbles from Bubble bobble? The name of the characters are Bub and Bob. Honestly even if they're old, I wouldn't really count them as retro rep, because the franchise is still getting game at a very decent rate, with even one that released on Switch a couple months ago. For me the "retro slot" must be not only a old character, but someone that had no game from a long time. As an example, Duck hunt is a retro rep because not counting re-release, ports and cameos, is last game was on the NES, but you wouldn't count Mario as a retro rep despite being older than Duck hunt.

As for other retro rep, I think Takamaru is a great choice. At this point Isaac from Golden sun would pretty much count as a retro rep because last Golden sun was 13 years ago, assuming next Smash released in like 2025 and there's no new Golden sun that would be a 15 years gap, which is almost the same gap as Ice climbers game and Melee release (17 years). Another retro rep that I would like is Mach rider.

 

[TheQuester]

Do you or anyone know when a Retro slot was in the game and who filled it? I get confused over this cause ppl say different stuff.

Characters like Ice Climbers, Pit and Duck Hunt Dog are considered the "retro" picks of the game they've introduced in, Melee, Brawl and 4 respectively, so people used to think there was a retro slot back then, aka a slot reserved for a retro character until Ultimate, the first game since Melee that didn't have a new retro rep.

CapitaineCrash I meant Bubbles from Clu Clu Land.

 

[Opossum]

Once again, a daily reminder that "retro" is not just something that was designated for the Ice Climbers exclusively.

"But that's an English Only thing!"

Doesn't matter. It's still an official source so I don't care. : D

 

[Pacack]

Once again, a daily reminder that "retro" is not just something that was designated for the Ice Climbers exclusively.View attachment 376624
"But that's an English Only thing!"

Doesn't matter. It's still an official source so I don't care. : D

Sakurai's only real statements on these groups seem to be about their surprise factor rather than their retro nature.

I’m actually not paying too much focus on the surprise element when we introduce a new fighter. The surprise element quickly fades once the announcement has been made. Rather, I believe it’s important to have a good balance as a game. In the past titles in the series, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B. and Duck Hunt Dog were some of the examples we offered outside of people’s typical expectations. However, if we don’t have these types of fighters, and we only had typical “hero/heroine” type fighters in the lineup, there’s not much difference. It’s probably not very interesting. Correct?

In his project plan slides for Smash 4, he also described Duck Hunt as that game's "surprise character." I used to argue before Piranha Plant's inclusion that these characters were added as historical representatives, but since that happened, I think the better interpretation is simply that Sakurai likes to add a character that goes against people's expectations sometimes, and that character is often an older character with some sort of legacy.

The designation of retro is only ever overtly stated in his selection process in Melee. While you used to be able to argue that Pit and Little Mac were the retros of Brawl and 4, I think it's a stretch to say that we had one in Ultimate, unless we combine the "retro" and "surprise" character into one for Plant, but even then Plant isn't limited to its oldest appearances. It's just a surprise because it's a grunt enemy. I don't think it's retro, really.

(Also, long time no see Opossum.)

 

[Arcanir]

The problem with the "Retro Rep" point is that there's how Sakurai defines it and how fans define it, and there's only one character that we know overlaps.

When it comes to fans, it's any character from the NES era, so Duck Hunt, Mr. Game and Watch, Pit, Ice Climbers, etc. All of those count under that umbrella based on fan criteria. Sakurai however has only referred to it with one particular character: IC, and any other character who's listed in that category is grouped under a different one (usually 'Surprise Character') and is never referred to as a retro rep in any capacity when he's talked about them. We have his words on DH, Pit (before Uprising), and Mr. Game and Watch, and none of them have used "retro" as a defining descriptor for the characters or a major reason for their inclusions like ICs, so we don't have any confirmation by his own words. So officially, there's only one known retro rep, we don't know if Sakurai considers the others retro reps or just characters who happen to be retro.

And no, the Amiibo box set is not Sakurai's interpretation. Marketing has done its own thing separate of the developer's thoughts and feelings before as they're trying to sell a product first (remember, K. Rool's Mii Costume from Smash 4 was also called 'retro', but the character's last appearance was the Wii era, which most fans wouldn't consider retro), and there's no Japanese equivalent or developer input that we know about and/or can refer back to for us to be certain Sakurai intended it that way. We can't use it as a point to speak certainly on the matter, and at best it's just loose speculation with a little bias mixed in.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I was beaten to saying the factors. And ah, I wasn't sure if Pit was referred to as that, but I couldn't remember either way.

The amiibo things is best to put as a marketing ploy, and accurate in a completely different context. Not a bad ploy, either, mind you.

In terms of "being selected", the amiibo are absolutely not an official statement by Sakurai. Retro-Picked and "can be considered Retro by fans" are completely different situations. Even if Sakurai also thinks they can fall under Retro, it's in terminology of "this is how the character is clearly created as", but has nothing to do with why they were picked. Ultimately, Ice Climbers is the only official one, and it was specifically among other NES characters. Basically, the only criteria we really had was NES Representative, and it's never been a case of another legitimate Retro Pick again. It absolutely could happen again, but it has yet to.

 

[Speed Weed]

All I'm saying is if I were Sakurai I would hype up a guessing game for a brand new retro rep and then drop a trailer where the first thing you hear is this

Spoiler

Takeshi's Challenge - Stage music

youtu.be

 

[HyperSomari64]

Spoiler: Cringey question

Will the 3DS may be considered """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""Retro"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" enough by the time Smash 6 releases to warrant a character?

All I'm saying is if I were Sakurai I would hype up a guessing game for a brand new retro rep and then drop a trailer where the first thing you hear is this

Spoiler

Takeshi's Challenge - Stage music

youtu.be

You have a good taste bro, but I can't take off my mind the fact of Shaq being Retro with your logic

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think Lip would be a really fun retro character. Takamaru too.

 

[chocolatejr9]

The short was released literally ten days after Chapek was ousted. Iger literally had nothing to do with the production of the short.

Spoiler: Off-Topic

Oh yeah, I didn't think of that. Still though, wasn't Iger always a bit passionate about Oswald? Not saying that will help or anything, just an observation.

Anyway, back to Smash, um... should I mention the fact that Gamecube is apparently considered "retro" now? Or will that just make people feel old?

 

[Pacack]

If I had to interpret everything Sakurai has said about "retro" characters:

: Actually were chosen to be a throwback character from the NES era for people who grew up with NES games.
: Surprise character, probably added for the historical significance of the Game and Watch to Nintendo's history (first product line to sell more than 10 million copies. First runaway commercial success for the company.)
: Was added because he wanted to do a modern reimagining of the character, in a similar vein to how Link has changed over time. He probably was already flirting with a Kid Icarus revival at this point.
: Surprise character. Probably added since it arguable saved the North American video game industry.
: Could be argued as a retro from a Japanese perspective, but had recently gotten a modestly successful Wii revival and was a popular request in the West. Sakurai focused more on the arcade "retro" elements of Mac over the NES version too, which goes against the supposed "retro" theory.
: Surprise character. Massively iconic character from a hugely popular game that came bundled with the NES in North America and Europe. Helps that the light gun and Nintendo go way, way back. (Nintendo developed the light gun for the Magnavox Odyssey in Japan, and had several light gun electromechanical toys/games starting from 1970, including a 1976 Duck Hunt eletromechanical home toy/game. This makes the Duck Hunt series the oldest series represented by a character in Smash Bros., though Wild Gunman as a series was started with a toy in 1972 and an arcade game in 1974, making it older.)
: Surprise character. Not really retro, since it references New Super Mario Bros. games in its moveset. Likely just a surprise because of its role not being a major hero or villain, just a regular enemy. Still iconic, of course.

Then there's all the third parties, of course, but Sakurai views them differently and values the legacy of their franchises, often honoring them by making them faithful to their best-known games.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Anyway, back to Smash, um... should I mention the fact that Gamecube is apparently considered "retro" now? Or will that just make people feel old?

Is the Wii Retro too?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Is the Wii Retro too?

Not yet, thankfully. I think it was said a console had to be 15-20 years old before it could be considered "retro", but that was awhile ago, and I might be remembering wrong.

 

[Noipoi]

The next retro fighter is the Virtual Boy

 

[HyperSomari64]

Not yet, thankfully. I think it was said a console had to be 15-20 years old before it could be considered "retro", but that was awhile ago, and I might be remembering wrong.

The Wii was 15 in 2021, the console is now 17 years old, so it counts
Sorry for repeating this, by the time Smash 6 is released, the 3DS will be Retro.

 

[Geno Boost]

Captain Falcon is technically a retro rep now which is sad honestly
If I had to pick another retro rep for smash it will be Sukapon he just seem funny and perfect and his game did age well plus adds another Robot fighter to the roster
Another choice is Harry from teleroboxer he can finally bring virtual boy content to smash

 

[Sucumbio]

All I'm saying is if I were Sakurai I would hype up a guessing game for a brand new retro rep and then drop a trailer where the first thing you hear is this

Spoiler

Takeshi's Challenge - Stage music

youtu.be

"The game placed first in Famitsu magazine's kusoge (crap game) ranking, and is often referred to as one of the worst video games of all time."

Lol!

 

[CannonStreak]

The next retro fighter is the Virtual Boy

Um, I don't know if it can work without possessing a fighter. I mean, it does need someone's eyes, after all.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Do you or anyone know when a Retro slot was in the game and who filled it? I get confused over this cause ppl say different stuff.

Imho yes. Could be filled with anything from Pitfall Harry to the ghosts n goblins dude to shoot crash bandicoot. I'm guessing the issue with wording is that these characters would also fulfill a slot label such as 3rd party rep or in the case of Arthur, yeah...

Mostly I've seen Retro to mean specifically NES characters so... sigh Takamaru bc everyone else likes him lol never heard of the him before Ultimate and to me Tiger Heli is more "iconic".

Ice Climbers filled in the Retro slot for Melee, Pit for Brawl, and Duck Hunt for 4.

Retro characters don't have to only be NES characters. They're just the only kind of characters that's been filling that slot so far, so people just bring them up.

Aside from Takamaru, there's also Bubbles from Clu Clu Land.

Pitfall Harry is retro but Arthur and Crash continue to appear in games in their series (something neither the Ice Climbers or Duck Hunt does), so they're definitely not retro.

If you want go outside of NES games, there's also characters like Muddy Mole and Prince of Sable, both who each only appeared in a Game Boy game.

 

[TheQuester]

In his project plan slides for Smash 4, he also described Duck Hunt as that game's "surprise character." I used to argue before Piranha Plant's inclusion that these characters were added as historical representatives, but since that happened, I think the better interpretation is simply that Sakurai likes to add a character that goes against people's expectations sometimes, and that character is often an older character with some sort of legacy.

I wonder who will be Smash 6 "surprise character" then.
Sheldon from Splatoon? Lol xD

 

[Pacack]

I wonder who will be Smash 6 "surprise character" then.
Sheldon from Splatoon? Lol xD

I don't think there's any guarantee we're going to get another one, honestly. Another enemy grunt is probably too predictable now, but maybe an octorok or something?

I used to be the guy arguing for the Napoleon featured on Nintendo's daitoryo hanafuda cards that's their first mascot from their founding in the 1800s, but that's too deep a cut for even Sakurai.

Spoiler: Context images/History Lesson

See left:

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I like how most of us are in agreement that Street fighter is just big enough as a franchise where it deserves a third character in smash.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I don't think there's any guarantee we're going to get another one, honestly. Another enemy grunt is probably too predictable now, but maybe an octorok or something?

I used to be the guy arguing for the Napoleon featured on Nintendo's daitoryo hanafuda cards that's their first mascot from their founding in the 1800s, but that's too deep a cut for even Sakurai.

Spoiler: Context images/History Lesson

View attachment 376629
View attachment 376631
See left:
View attachment 376628

Bro forgot the fact that Nintendo did a Napoleon Bonaparte strategy game for the GBA. It was exclusive though.
Edit: Wait! The game did release in .

 

[Pacack]

Bro forgot the fact that Nintendo did a Napoleon Bonaparte strategy game for the GBA. It was exclusive though.

Alessandro Inzaghi from that game is a Spirit in Ultimate, actually. Nintendo remembers.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I like how most of us are in agreement that Street fighter is just big enough as a franchise where it deserves a third character in smash.

But are we in agreement on who said character should be?