Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Megadoomer]

Really?

Not that I am doubting you, but where was this said?

Anyways, I was just checking on that.

'I actually wanted to include Geno as far back as Brawl' - Sakurai spills the beans on one of the most requested Smash Bros. characters

Sakurai: Geno was actually a character I wanted to include as a fighter. He has a gun for an arm, and just seems like he'd fit absolutely perfectly into Smash.

I was hoping I'd be able to put him in as far back as Super Smash Bros. Brawl, but unfortunately that never ended up materializing.

There's also a link to the original magazine scan, since it's usually pretty easy to claim "the creator said it in an interview" without providing a source, especially if the interview would have been given in a foreign language. (though I'm only assuming that the translation is correct)

 

[Arcanir]

Brawl era was also very much a time of people not looking past their biases and only going off their own experiences. There was a small sect of Pac-Man supporters but they were very much drowned out until roughly two years after Brawl launched.

Brawl era was also a time where people unironically pushed Sigurd because he was Sakurai's favorite FE character (he isn't) and he used a lance (he doesn't, at least not usually).

The Sigurd thing is still one of the major examples of a false statement from Sakurai being paraded around to prop up a character that I remember. Many of us just bought into the idea that he was Sakurai's favorite, but never asked for any sources or proof of it being the case and just kind of accepted him as a potential candidate. Which made things funny when we got that interview where Sakurai said it was Navarre and shot that whole campaign down.

It really shows that it's way too easy to spread something as truth, and how we still fall into that trap considering how many times you'll see someone bring up an incorrect statement to prop up a character or shoot someone else down.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I wasn't including these because they were considered troll requests on par with Goku by the majority of the fanbase lol. Like, literally anime character levels of unlikely.

Could have fooled me on Sora, feels like every other fan roster had him on it.

Then again i was 9 at the time so i probably was fooled.

 

[CannonStreak]

This interview. It's what resurrected Geno support post-ballot.

Here is Sakurai's quote on the Geno costume: https://t.co/kHCQVZaETJ pic.twitter.com/OQbBz9gIDj

— Source Gaming (@AllSourceGaming) June 23, 2018

Oh, right.

Well, I can see that if Sakurai wanted Geno, he could have added him by now, but, there were other Square, no no...Square Enix characters to work on. I bet given how easy it is to make humanoid characters, and how many of them were in DLC of Smash Bros. Ultimate, I think that is one of the reasons why Geno probably was not DLC, other than things like Nintendo, who was picking the DLC at the time, not choosing him.

Another theory of mine, which is about why Geno was not even in the base game of Ultimate where he could have been more likely for that than DLC, is that if I heard correctly, Hero from Dragon Quest was planned for the base game of Smash Bros. Ultimate, but was moved to DLC. If this is true at all, I can see that they were focusing on other Square Enix characters at the time and not Geno, and given how many newcomers were in the base game, which were not much, I think Sakurai just did not have time to make Geno playable.

 

[Opossum]

The Sigurd thing is still one of the major examples of a false statement from Sakurai being paraded around to prop up a character that I remember. Many of us just bought into the idea that he was Sakurai's favorite, but never asked for any sources or proof of it being the case and just kind of accepted him as a potential candidate. Which made things funny when we got that interview where Sakurai said it was Navarre and shot that whole campaign down.

It really shows that it's way too easy to spread something as truth, and how we still fall into that trap considering how many times you'll see someone bring up an incorrect statement to prop up a character or shoot someone else down.

It's so funny looking back too because like...of course it would be Navarre. Of course the guy who made Meta Knight and Dark Pit, and whose favorite KOF character is Iori, would have Navarre as his favorite Fire Emblem character lol.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Didn't they solve this problem with assist trophies? Maybe you don't want to see Snagret from Pikmin relegated to a non playable assist, instead of a fighter with a fully fledged moveset, but it still counts as representation. And considering that "mooks" tend to do have very little to work with, as well as the roles they play in their games, it seems more fitting that they'd be assist trophies.

Not really since Assist Trophies don't do much other than be Limited CPU enemies. There is a reason why Assist Trophies bring a sense of dread and despair than something actually aspiring or worthy. If it was true representation then don't why more people advocate characters for assists then actual fighters.

ROB, Piranha Plant and technically Pokemon reps as a whole put that last statement to bed. Mooks do have a lot to work with especially you can incorporate the species entirely in one moveset like the Plant.

There should more variety in this so-proclaimed "celebration of gaming" then just safe-pick protags and main character.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Not really since Assist Trophies don't do much other than be Limited CPU enemies. There is a reason why Assist Trophies bring a sense of dread and despair than something actually aspiring or worthy. If it was true representation then don't why more people advocate characters for assists then actual fighters.

ROB, Piranha Plant and technically Pokemon reps as a whole put that last statement to bed. Mooks do have a lot to work with especially you can incorporate the species entirely in one moveset like the Plant.

There should more variety in this so-proclaimed "celebration of gaming" then just safe-pick protags and main character.

If that's the case, then Vert should be the Neptunia rep instead of Neptune.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

If it was true representation then don't why more people advocate characters for assists then actual fighters.

Probably because Smash has never taken any means to signify what's worth being an assist character. Plenty of good choices for fighters have been relegated to assist trophies for over a decade, with Ultimate being the most egregious of adding characters with decent potential as fighters. Only two of these assists throughout the franchise's history have ever upgraded to playable, in a pool of over 50. But this gets even worse if we include Pokémon assists, as Charizard is the only Pokémon assist to be relegated to playable in a pool of roughly 100. This puts the percentage of added assists upgrading into fighters to 2% (give or take).

And even if assists were able to be justified on their own, Smash has never bothered to ask what people want for assists in the same vein as the ballot. So, with Ultimate turning a new ballot cold, there's even less of a shot people will be happy with who gets relegated to the sidelines. This is made even worse by the fact that DLC has never added any new items, so the only shot of seeing the assist relegations is through the base game.

Even if your most wanted is prime assist material, there's no good chance they'll get added as one, and there's also that ugly shot they could add a different assist that basically does the exact same gimmick. There's no winning with being sidelined, I'm afraid.

 

[Opossum]

Probably because Smash has never taken any means to signify what's worth being an assist character. Plenty of good choices for fighters have been relegated to assist trophies for over a decade, with Ultimate being the most egregious of adding characters with decent potential as fighters. Only two of these assists throughout the franchise's history have ever upgraded to playable, in a pool of over 50. But this gets even worse if we include Pokémon assists, as Charizard is the only Pokémon assist to be relegated to playable in a pool of roughly 100. This puts the percentage of added assists upgrading into fighters to 2% (give or take).

And even if assists were able to be justified on their own, Smash has never bothered to ask what people want for assists in the same vein as the ballot. So, with Ultimate turning a new ballot cold, there's even less of a shot people will be happy with who gets relegated to the sidelines. This is made even worse by the fact that DLC has never added any new items, so the only shot of seeing the assist relegations is through the base game.

Even if your most wanted is prime assist material, there's no good chance they'll get added as one, and there's also that ugly shot they could add a different assist that basically does the exact same gimmick. There's no winning with being sidelined, I'm afraid.

Three plus Charizard, not two plus Charizard.

Charizard, Little Mac, Isabelle, Dark Samus.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Three plus Charizard, not two plus Charizard.

Charizard, Little Mac, Isabelle, Dark Samus.

OOPS, I forgot Dark Samus! Uh... fine, scratch the percentage. I meant more to focus on how unbalanced the assist choices were, anyway.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

They really need to consider adding more assist trophy characters via free updates in the next smash game, that seems like a reasonable request.

 

[Perkilator]

They really need to consider adding more assist trophy characters via free updates in the next smash game, that seems like a reasonable request.

Right? They could've at least done that for each Challenger Pack, with an AT relevant to the character (save maybe Spring Man since he was an AT in the base game already)

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Having been revived with Super Bomberman R, he would've had more of a presence in Ultimate speculation if he wasn't AT'd right at the beginning. :/

I don't think that Bomberman would have got much more support tbh. First off, Super Bomberman R released too late to get considered for Ultimate project plan (released in 2017, Ultimate project plan was in 2016), so at this time Bomberman was still a dormant franchise. And beside, the game got fairly bad reviews, I don't think it would have really been seriously considered even if the timing was right. Also, like Opposum said, Brawl third party discussion was mostly around Sonic, Mega Man, Bomberman, Simon Belmont and occasionnaly Travis Touchdown, with Cloud, Sora and Banjo sometimes being mentionned but there were seen as impossible. With Ultimate, the scope of possible third party was much bigger, which mean way bigger competition for Bomberman, and many younger players probably never played a Bomberman game. Honestly even if he wasn't announced as an AT I don't think he would have been on the top of popularity like he was back in the day.

 

[Ivander]

And beside, the game got fairly bad reviews, I don't think it would have really been seriously considered even if the timing was right

First off, Banjo and Kazooie's last game was Nuts & Bolts which is commonly torn apart by fans. So reviews or bad games hardly do anything for a characters' chances if they are wanted in the first place, especially when they can base a character off of their previous games like Pac-Man(World instead of Ghostly Adventures) and Banjo & Kazooie. Not to mention Samus getting her latest design from Other M, a game that is also torn apart constantly.

Second, as someone who has actually played the game:

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I remember people asking for Klonoa more than Pac-Man as the Namco mascot/Scrimblo rep.
(i was a small kid back then, don't judge me)

You were on the Internet at 3-4 years old?

My dude, it's clear you weren't there for Brawl speculation. Why make stuff up?

 

[Soy_Man]

Not really since Assist Trophies don't do much other than be Limited CPU enemies.

What is a mook if not a limited CPU enemy?

There is a reason why Assist Trophies bring a sense of dread and despair than something actually aspiring or worthy.

Well, some of us still appreciate them as neat additions to the game. And call me an ***hole, but I don't really care if someone, somewhere was devastated that the pacman ghosts were deconfirmed.

If it was true representation then don't why more people advocate characters for assists then actual fighters.

That has nothing to do with what constitutes representation.

ROB, Piranha Plant and technically Pokemon reps as a whole put that last statement to bed. Mooks do have a lot to work with especially you can incorporate the species entirely in one moveset like the Plant.

My point was that assist trophies serve as perfectly adequate representation for mooks, because generally speaking, assist trophies perform a very limited range of actions and the same can be said for mooks.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

First off, Banjo and Kazooie's last game was Nuts & Bolts which is commonly torn apart by fans. So reviews or bad games hardly do anything for a characters' chances if they are wanted in the first place, especially when they can base a character off of their previous games like Pac-Man(World instead of Ghostly Adventures) and Banjo & Kazooie. Not to mention Samus getting her latest design from Other M, a game that is also torn apart constantly.

Second, as someone who has actually played the game:

From what I recall, Super Bomberman R got, at worst, middling reviews. with critics and fans basically agreeing it was a decent comeback for the series, albeit not quite as strong as certain other previous releases when it came to single player content and multiplayer.

 

[fogbadge]

Xanatos!

 

[dream1ng]

One thing being left out of this Brawl-era third-party discussion is Geno. Probably because he's a third-party, but not like the other ones. He's not like the other girls.

But Brawl was Geno's original peak, popularity-wise. He was incredibly popular during Brawl, and after that really faded into the crowd until the costume brought him back, and the Sakurai statement helped compound his case.

Not that it's the best reflection of Brawl popularity, but go watch Smash Kingdom. I think that was what it was called.

The other huge thing that could help Isaac is that the other two first party characters who most rival his popularity level, Waluigi and Dee, may not need to get in via a dedicated "hardcore fan pick" slot. Both the Wah and Dee are very relevant (and probably will be for the foreseeable future) and both are from bigger series that may easily get newcomer slots dedicated specially to them.

This is perhaps the biggest hope for Isaac outside of getting a new game at some point: it seems reasonable to think that he would be at the top of the stack for a potential 1P fan pick slot.

Yeh, I don't think Waluigi would be added under the fanbase pick criteria, because of his general popularity. Like Inkling, he could be, but he won't be. He's one of the very few remaining first-parties that resonates in basically all demographics, and as a recurring Mario character, resonates widely.

On the other hand, I do think BWD would. Though he should be able to get in based on other qualities, I think the only way Sakurai relents on his whole preferential Kirby deal is if the fans are loud enough. To that end I don't agree with people rating BWD as a very likely addition. I think he's definitely possible, but I think getting past Sakurai himself prevents an easy path. Though this is a non-issue if someone else has taken over selection.

Though, even if BWD does get in, and does get in via the fanbase, I do think there would be room for more than one, especially if the next game has a normal-sized base instead of Ultimate basically having three unrestricted slots for original first-party newcomers.

I dont think Phoenix was a popular fan request during the days of Smashbros brawl.
Since people's priorities were getting Megaman into the game.

I actually remember very clearly that Lloyd was lumped in with Pacman as Namco characters who should get in, i dont remember ever seeing Phoenix's picture anywhere back then.

Well there's a distinction between third-parties who started getting requests during Brawl, and the third-parties that were actually quite popular.

Characters like Phoenix Wright, Pac-Man, Leon Kennedy, Travis Touchdown, Slime, Crono, and more Sonic characters (and probably a few others) all had their popularity start during Brawl, but the really popular ones were mostly just Sonic, Mega Man, Bomberman, Geno, and to a lesser extent Lloyd.

I have to imagine Simon was in there somewhere as well, though I don't remember seeing him requested much.

Sora was too, but I hesitate to class him since he was more popular than most of the former, but very very unexpected, unlike the latter group.

Same for Pac-Man with Lloyd.

No. Pac-Man was absolutely not a big Brawl request and Lloyd was definitely the favorite for a Bandai-Namco character at the time. Back during Brawl a LOT of people were on the "he's a pizza slice" train of thought like Sakurai was.

Well, unlike with Capcom, where it was obviously Mega Man above all others, the popularity for Lloyd didn't preclude Pac-Man. As in, it wasn't a foregone conclusion that it had to be Lloyd, he was just the more popular one.

Pac-Man had some demand back then, it's just that it wouldn't crystallize as something notable until Smash 4, when it was learned Namco was the dev. And yes, for a long time Pac-Man faced many criticisms of infeasibility.

From what I've been able to grasp of Brawl spec.....Bomberman's probably the biggest third-party request left from that era. I do really hope he gets in one day

Well in terms of the character that was most popular then, yes.

In terms of characters that had their popularity start then, he's probably not the most popular now. I would imagine Phoenix and Lloyd have more overall demand. But I also think being deconfirmed for most of Ultimate hurt Bomberman a lot.

Though I also think Phoenix isn't likely to get in over other characters from his company, like Dante, Chun Li, RE or MH. Lloyd and Bomberman may.

Having said that, even though that sales list was based on recency, it seems like Bomberman's costume did sell quite well. So that could help him.

I remember people asking for Klonoa more than Pac-Man as the Namco mascot/Scrimblo rep.
(i was a small kid back then, don't judge me)

Worth saying that these lists aren't exhaustive. Of course there were other third-parties suggested here and there, as there are now. Klonoa, being a character who looks like he just "fits" in Smash probably did come up sometimes. Especially since he had a game release around then.

We're just focusing on the major requests.

I feel like Phoenix Wright was pretty over but has since fallen a bit, I would still like to see Ace Attorney get it's due.

Those polls I posted have Phoenix actually doing fairly well, though again, granted, they have pretty mediocre sample size. The problem with Phoenix's popularity, which I think will continue, is it's notable, but not notable enough to be substantial enough to get him in.

Like, he's always on polls. But he's never the highest. And those are the characters that get in based on demand. Like, Sonic, Mega Man, Banjo, Sora... these were legitimately the top one and two characters. Phoenix isn't that.

Plus Capcom is really stiff competition.

Dont forget about Sora and "Cloud strife from final fantasy 7!"

I actually disagree with Opossum a little bit here. I agree Cloud's demand was rampant with memeing and ironic "Cloud Strife 4 Brawl lolzors" kinda energy. There was sincerity in there, but it was buried beneath trolling. Same with Waluigi. And Shadow. Even more so with Master Chief.

I mean Master Chief's wouldn't become sincere until basically Ultimate.

I do think Sora's was overall more sincere, since Sora did legitimately have several prominent Nintendo appearances and that very crucial Nintendo association thought critical in those days. Not that his was free from memeing and trolls, but I think his support was more idealistic than ironic. Like, people wanted him, just didn't really expect him.

One aspect that fed into that back then being Kingdom Hearts listed under the works on the composers page on the Dojo. I think under Yoko Shimomura's name. Anyway, people, of course, impulsively and optimistically took that for more than it was worth. Especially since the composer page was full of games that clearly wouldn't be represented in Brawl.

Brawl era was also very much a time of people not looking past their biases and only going off their own experiences. There was a small sect of Pac-Man supporters but they were very much drowned out until roughly two years after Brawl launched.

Brawl era was also a time where people unironically pushed Sigurd because he was Sakurai's favorite FE character (he isn't) and he used a lance (he doesn't, at least not usually).

I don't doubt that was part of Sigurd's deal as well, but I thought a lot of that support was because people incorrectly thought Sigurd was one of the characters either planned for 64 or Melee (can't remember which).

I might be misremembing, but I thought it was in that never-sourced allegation claimed to be from some old Japanese interview that Sakurai was also planning Trainer for Melee, but with Johto mons. One that people invoked for a while until they realized it had no real backing, eventually falling away.

I don't think that Bomberman would have got much more support tbh. First off, Super Bomberman R released too late to get considered for Ultimate project plan (released in 2017, Ultimate project plan was in 2016), so at this time Bomberman was still a dormant franchise.

Well, one, people didn't know those dates back then - Rex/Pyra were among the most expected for base at one point. And two, popularity was popularity, Banjo and Geno had popularity during base, even though a lot of people acknowledged they may not show up until DLC.

Like, next time Geno popularity is going to, presumably, start strong and just keep going, despite the fact that many people will probably believe his chances to be better for DLC than base. Popularity may rise for third-parties once in the DLC phase, but it often starts before then.

And beside, the game got fairly bad reviews, I don't think it would have really been seriously considered even if the timing was right.

If there's a game that revives a popular character and sells very well, especially for that series (as Super Bomberman R) did, its critical score is not going to be the decisive factor in the character getting reignited popularity.

The game wouldn't come to Smash, the character would. And the character is a cumulation of all their games.

Also, like Opposum said, Brawl third party discussion was mostly around Sonic, Mega Man, Bomberman, Simon Belmont and occasionnaly Travis Touchdown, with Cloud, Sora and Banjo sometimes being mentionned but there were seen as impossible. With Ultimate, the scope of possible third party was much bigger, which mean way bigger competition for Bomberman, and many younger players probably never played a Bomberman game. Honestly even if he wasn't announced as an AT I don't think he would have been on the top of popularity like he was back in the day.

I'm not saying his popularity would've gone toe-to-toe with Banjo and Geno.

But one thing that has seemingly been erased from the records is that leading into Ultimate, opinion and demand was split on Konami's next character between Castlevania and Bomberman. Remember Castlevania as a series also wasn't doing so hot then. Or now. Though also to remember is the doubt in Konami's presence at all. However, Bomberman was genuinely gaining traction since his game. You can go look at early Ultimate threads. It absolutely wasn't so high as to be chart-topping, but with more time, it would've picked up into something.

Also keep in mind, without being an AT, after Castlevania got in, Bomberman would've been the uncontested (for the most part) next in line for Konami, and would've really benefitted from that in DLC speculation. It's the wrong idea, but the "company rep" notion is still a big part of the discourse. Look at how people treated Namco and Capcom.

Demographic-wise, younger players may not help Bomberman, but look at who we ask for. Geno, Banjo, Simon, Ridley, K. Rool, Isaac. Since when do we give a **** about younger players. And inclusion-wise, none of the inclusions skewed more towards younger players than older ones except Steve. And that's Minecraft, that's ubiquitous. I mean, we got Terry, Simon and Banjo, not Fortnite, Roblox and Among Us.

Sure he wasn't Banjo popularity-wise, or Steve size-wise, but he was a character with a history of fanbase support, with growing support, with current successful game(s), with his company already present, and without any real competition from the rest of Konami. He would've been a part of the conversation, and much more popular than he ended up being.

 

[CannonStreak]

One thing being left out of this Brawl-era third-party discussion is Geno. Probably because he's a third-party, but not like the other ones. He's not like the other girls.

But Brawl was Geno's original peak, popularity-wise. He was incredibly popular during Brawl, and after that really faded into the crowd until the costume brought him back, and the Sakurai statement helped compound his case.

Not that it's the best reflection of Brawl popularity, but go watch Smash Kingdom. I think that was what it was called.

I remember that video. I was confused honestly on why Geno was in it, before learning about how wanted he was. I wonder if the remake will help induce an even bigger peak for popularity for Geno for the next Smash Bros. game?

 

[Ivander]

From what I recall, Super Bomberman R got, at worst, middling reviews. with critics and fans basically agreeing it was a decent comeback for the series, albeit not quite as strong as certain other previous releases when it came to single player content and multiplayer.

Me and my cousins have a ton of fun with Super Bomberman R. It's one of the few games where we can laugh at our mess-ups because of how chaotic it can be and how easy it is to catch another off-guard. And the Cameo characters add to replayability thanks to their Special abilities. Basically, alot of chaos & havoc and alot of laughs to go with it.
And while the Single player content is somewhat lackluster, it wasn't a pain to get max rank for the levels and it allowed me to get the hidden characters without issue. Story was corny, but it was a good corny IMO. Money and unlocking stuff with it was somewhat an issue at first, until I learned by experience with the World Prix Mode or whatever it was called, that if you do a 1v1 with the Red Bomberman COM, they will literally blow themselves up 99% of the time and you will win by doing absolutely nothing. You can repeat it endlessly and it gives you easy money.

But still, I had and still have a ton of fun with it, I liked the Single-player enough to max rank it and unlock all the hidden characters and honestly, I'm looking forward to Super Bomberman R 2.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Given Klonoa's abilities in his games i feel he's perfect for an assist trophy spot.

I'm a fan of the Klonoa series but i struggle to imagine him in a playable spot but as an assist He's perfect.

 

[dream1ng]

I remember that video. I was confused honestly on why Geno was in it, before learning about how wanted he was. I wonder if the remake will help induce an even bigger peak for popularity for Geno for the next Smash Bros. game?

Probably. So far all of Geno's popularity has existed while he was dormant (not counting M&L). Now that he's active, there's just more in his favor. Maybe the fanbase won't be louder than they were pre-Sephiroth, because that was pretty nuts, but I think this time that noise will have better logical grounding and more actual corroboration from the non-Geno supporters in terms of likelihood.

 

[CannonStreak]

Probably. So far all of Geno's popularity has existed while he was dormant (not counting M&L). Now that he's active, there's just more in his favor. Maybe the fanbase won't be louder than they were pre-Sephiroth, because that was pretty nuts, but I think this time that noise will have better logical grounding and more actual corroboration from the non-Geno supporters in terms of likelihood.

Ah, gotcha. I can imagine the backlash was big enough for Sakurai to hear some of it, though I could be wrong. Whatever happens, this will all be interesting to see unfold. Hopefully, it will turn out for the better.

 

[Speed Weed]

Well in terms of the character that was most popular then, yes.

yeah that's basically what I meant, sorry for the confusion

 

[dream1ng]

Ah, gotcha. I can imagine the backlash was big enough for Sakurai to hear some of it, though I could be wrong. Whatever happens, this will all be interesting to see unfold. Hopefully, it will turn out for the better.

Sakurai knows Geno is popular. He's known it since Brawl.

I imagine they expected the backlash. And it's probably the reason they showed the costumes first in the Sephiroth showcase rather than at the end like the others (bar Sora). I suspect the backlash that caught them the most off guard and may be likeliest to influence selection is Waluigi. Then maybe Isaac.

yeah that's basically what I meant, sorry for the confusion

Though that's also excluding Geno.

But Geno wasn't treated quite the same as the other third-parties back then. Which I guess is still the case to some extent. I think there was more contention on his ownership within the fanbase, though it's not like people didn't know about Square's role. I guess there had to be less consensus on his legal state if he could get so popular in an age where we hadn't even necessarily received Sonic yet, let alone have Square Enix get involved.

 

[CannonStreak]

Sakurai knows Geno is popular. He's known it since Brawl.

I imagine they expected the backlash. And it's probably the reason they showed the costumes first in the Sephiroth showcase rather than at the end like the others (bar Sora). I suspect the backlash that caught them the most off guard and may be likeliest to influence selection is Waluigi. Then maybe Isaac.

Ah I see. Anyway, that goes to show that anything is possible!

(Yeah, I just wanted to say that one last time as a means of annoyance, but I did not truly mean what I said about the anything is possible thing. What are you going to do? Sue me? LOL)

But seriously, on the topic of Isaac, I can see him get in since there was an outcry at one point. I wouldn't exactly call it a good leak, and not just because it was fake in the end, but maybe the Grinch leak (I hate that I am bringing this up) added to the backlash and helped get the attention of Sakurai when the fans were upset?

 

[SPEN18]

On the other hand, I do think BWD would. Though he should be able to get in based on other qualities, I think the only way Sakurai relents on his whole preferential Kirby deal is if the fans are loud enough. To that end I don't agree with people rating BWD as a very likely addition. I think he's definitely possible, but I think getting past Sakurai himself prevents an easy path. Though this is a non-issue if someone else has taken over selection.

Though, even if BWD does get in, and does get in via the fanbase, I do think there would be room for more than one, especially if the next game has a normal-sized base instead of Ultimate basically having three unrestricted slots for original first-party newcomers.

I'm personally thinking that "Sak bias" will be at least noticeably diminished next time. Though Sakurai will still have a great deal of influence, either direct or indirect, no matter his official title/role (if any).

With BWD in particular, it's been made pretty obvious how hard they're pushing him in the Kirby series, even to someone like me who was a longtime detractor. So it's possible Sakurai would receive resistance from more than just the fans for intentionally avoiding him, idk.

Though I agree that BWD is not without obstacles, especially if Sakurai has a sizeable role/influence in choosing characters. It's easily possible Sakurai is biased against him or thinks him uninteresting, even if I disagree with those being good reasons for exclusion. We've seen Sakurai be reluctant to add Kirby reps in general before, which could be a problem regardless of his thoughts on Dee in particular, and it's not like Sakurai-directed Kirby is devoid of alternative options, either.

But yeah with a regularly-sized crop of newcomers, multiple "fan pick" slots could easily be available. In that case, if even one of Waluigi and Dee could get in without taking up one of those dedicated slots, then Isaac would be in a vastly better position than if all three were restricted to the same path to the roster.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Sakurai knows Geno is popular. He's known it since Brawl.

I imagine they expected the backlash. And it's probably the reason they showed the costumes first in the Sephiroth showcase rather than at the end like the others (bar Sora). I suspect the backlash that caught them the most off guard and may be likeliest to influence selection is Waluigi. Then maybe Isaac.

I feel like the smash devs are 100% aware of how popular a request Isaac is, given how many Golden sun spirits we have in ultimate.

 

[Arcanir]

I might be misremembing, but I thought it was in that never-sourced allegation claimed to be from some old Japanese interview that Sakurai was also planning Trainer for Melee, but with Johto mons. One that people invoked for a while until they realized it had no real backing, eventually falling away.

It was Melee, IIRC the story went that Sigurd was intended for Melee because he was hos favorite, but Sakurai couldn't get him to work due to the horse and had to cut him. They then would say because it is a new game he was going to be in because now he could get him to work.

 

[SPEN18]

I feel like the smash devs are 100% aware of how popular a request Isaac is, given how many Golden sun spirits we have in ultimate.

IIRC there was a report at one point (can't remember if it was ultimately deemed reliable at all) that some at Nintendo were surprised by the reaction to the Isaac AT, being convinced that many of his fans would be content with simply getting his AT back. One could see how this could be falsely concluded, since I am pretty sure many GS fans mentioned explicitly on their ballot form how they were disappointed that Isaac didn't even get his AT back in 4.

Combine that possible misread with the fact that Nintendo obviously doesn't view ATs the same way fans do. Their attitude was probably that they were throwing the GS fans several bones by putting in any content at all, but with many people anything but the final goal of a playable rep is still a massive disappointment. Of course this applies to all ATs, but especially so with characters like Isaac whose series was excluded almost completely in the game before. Maybe Nintendo was taken aback by the amount of discontent with a character making what was in their eyes a rare and significant comeback.

Throw on top of this the fact that Isaac's AT got revealed in conjunction with the Grinch leak being definitively proven false. The Grinch was probably the biggest thing Isaac ever had going for him in terms of widely believed leaks or rumors. This certainly contributed to the loudness of the disappointment; playable Isaac had never before seemed as close as it did at some points during base Ult speculation. It all came crashing down at the very end of the line. And while all the Grinch leak characters save for Ken were disconfirmed for base in that same Direct, Isaac and Shadow were the ones to be shown in non-playable roles during the Direct, hence be able to illicit a live reaction (and possibly even dash hopes of their DLC chances for some people).

In all, it's entirely possible that the Isaac AT reaction caught them off guard. Quite possibly more than any other disconfirmation besides Waluigi.

 

[dream1ng]

Ah I see. Anyway, that goes to show that anything is possible!

(Yeah, I just wanted to say that one last time as a means of annoyance, but I did not truly mean what I said about the anything is possible thing. What are you going to do? Sue me? LOL)

But seriously, on the topic of Isaac, I can see him get in since there was an outcry at one point. I wouldn't exactly call it a good leak, and not just because it was fake in the end, but maybe the Grinch leak (I hate that I am bringing this up) added to the backlash and helped get the attention of Sakurai when the fans were upset?

The Grinch leak absolutely increased expectation, many people were convinced it was real until the Smash Direct that proved it wasn't.

That leak also got pretty major coverage as far as Smash leaks go, which increased eyes on those specific characters. And that increased backlash for Isaac since he was both already popular before the leak, and unlike Banjo and Geno, deconfirmed within the Direct.

Past this place and the few others that actually recognize Isaac as a popular character, I remember people reacting adversely to his deconfirmation who before never appeared to acknowledge that character. It seemed like really the only time people treated him as the genuinely popular character he was.

Though leading up to that, other things like Rathalos theory and the sprout item had brought more attention to Isaac so he was already in focus. Of course there was also the earthquake theory, which was ****ing embarrassing, but also disingenuously threw that whole fanbase under the bus despite only a minute contingent who actually entertained that idea.

In any case, it was built on the backs of incorrect theorizing, culminating in the Grinch leak and that backlash, but it did result in Isaac finally, if briefly, getting attention somewhat commensurate with his demand. Maybe that, with the ballot results preceding it, was enough to get relayed back to Nintendo/Sakurai.

I feel like the smash devs are 100% aware of how popular a request Isaac is, given how many Golden sun spirits we have in ultimate.

I feel like the ballot made them aware of Isaac's demand.

Regardless, I still think the backlash may have been additionally informative. At least, more so than Geno's, which I think they saw coming a mile away. A few years ago, there was an insider in the Isaac thread with NoA connections attesting they were surprised at the degree of backlash to the deconfirmation. If you search enough in there, you can probably see some of that conversation. Unfortunately it's fairly far back at this point.

Though I also understand questioning their credibility without knowing more about them.

It was Melee, IIRC the story went that Sigurd was intended for Melee because he was hos favorite, but Sakurai couldn't get him to work due to the horse and had to cut him. They then would say because it is a new game he was going to be in because now he could get him to work.

Oh, alright. I may have only heard this claim post-Brawl, then, because I have no memory of the trying again part.

 

[Stratos]

Ever since I learned that some sources consider Cranky Kong to be the grandfather of the current Donkey Kong and others consider him to be his father I have been confused. That is, there is a possibility that the current Donkey Kong is the son of Donkey Kong Jr. or that he is Donkey Kong Jr. himself as an adult. However, Baby Donkey Kong from Yoshi's Island DS is definitely Cranky Kong as a baby since he was the first Donkey Kong.

 

[dream1ng]

I'm personally thinking that "Sak bias" will be at least noticeably diminished next time. Though Sakurai will still have a great deal of influence, either direct or indirect, no matter his official title/role (if any).

Well I don't think the Sak bias will extend to the choices from Nintendo (though people do say the Sak bias is why we got Terry). Sakurai is already of the opinion there's too much FE, but defers to Nintendo's agenda on that one. It's just that Kirby doesn't fit under the type of series Nintendo uses for promo.

Ironically, even if Nintendo took greater overall control, I also think Kirby may be the one series Nintendo would still defer to Sakurai on, out of respect.

So unless someone else is choosing the characters Sakurai normally does, I don't see this changing much.

With BWD in particular, it's been made pretty obvious how hard they're pushing him in the Kirby series, even to someone like me who was a longtime detractor. So it's possible Sakurai would receive resistance from more than just the fans for intentionally avoiding him, idk.

Yeah, but BWD having a prominent place in Kirby isn't new at this point. While he's the obvious next in line, being fourth in line, with the other three bigger character already in, and Kirby not being a series Nintendo generally decides for, and it still kind of being Sakurai's series... I don't really see the hook there for them to intervene on his choices.

Not like how if Sakurai thought series like Animal Crossing or Minecraft wouldn't work, it could prompt someone coming to "persuade" him. That's excluding a very big, very popular series. This is just a supporting character (as in, not the lead) in a series that already has several bigger characters.

Not to say BWD doesn't merit inclusion, just that, of all the characters Nintendo could get on Sakurai's case about not including, I doubt it'd be this one. If they don't tell him how to handle Zelda, I doubt they'll tell him how to handle Kirby. Nor does HAL seem to care either.

Though I agree that BWD is not without obstacles, especially if Sakurai has a sizeable role/influence in choosing characters. It's easily possible Sakurai is biased against him or thinks him uninteresting, even if I disagree with those being good reasons for exclusion. We've seen Sakurai be reluctant to add Kirby reps in general before, which could be a problem regardless of his thoughts on Dee in particular, and it's not like Sakurai-directed Kirby is devoid of alternative options, either.

But yeah with a regularly-sized crop of newcomers, multiple "fan pick" slots could easily be available. In that case, if even one of Waluigi and Dee could get in without taking up one of those dedicated slots, then Isaac would be in a vastly better position than if all three were restricted to the same path to the roster.

If in the rollout of the next Smash, we see stuff like a Kirby stage based on a non-Sakurai game, a Kirby AT based on a non-Sak character, or basically just any indication that the bias is done, like him having a lesser role in selection, at that point I'd reevaluate my thoughts on BWD's chances.

At this point though, the pattern is still strong enough that I think BWD's shot is less promising and more restricted to specific routes than others do.

And again, ironically, as long as he's still somewhat involved in selection, I do think others may feel impelled to defer to him on Kirby. Like if, idk, Kojima was making the roster... people may just let him decide what to do with Metal Gear.

 

[fogbadge]

Ever since I learned that some sources consider Cranky Kong to be the grandfather of the current Donkey Kong and others consider him to be his father I have been confused. That is, there is a possibility that the current Donkey Kong is the son of Donkey Kong Jr. or that he is Donkey Kong Jr. himself as an adult. However, Baby Donkey Kong from Yoshi's Island DS is definitely Cranky Kong as a baby since he was the first Donkey Kong.

that is in part due to rare. at one point they intended the current DK to be the grown up dk jr as with cranky being the aged original. however they changed that and the current dk was said to be jr's son in dkc. however matters got conflated when in dk64 cranky calls dk his useless lazy son suggesting the original idea was canon. these days nintendo seem to ignore it all together though i think last we heard it was the grandson idea that was canon. the baby dk in yoshi's island ds is meant to be the modern dk as seen in his design.

matters are more confusing diddy was originally going to be a redesigned jr

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Geno’s whole thing was it just never seemed to be the “right time” I don’t mean that in a way that he wasn’t popular but aside from not getting a new game, Square-Enix just always had other priorities for characters. I’m sure Geno’s popularity reflected in the Smash ballot without a doubt but seeing as how Cloud, Hero, and Sephiroth all had respective developments of a new game around their announcements in Smash it seems like they secured priority.

With that being said we need to take into account that Geno is first and foremost a Square owned character despite being a Mario character. With that being said there seems to be an odd, yet understandable pattern with Square characters and that’s the fact that they all have been DLC in their respective games. I’m not sure if it’s some kind of profit split issue, licensing issue, or even just timing but it seems likely that Geno would follow suit next time around.

Meaning that Toad, Waluigi, or whoever else is just as likely to be the token base roster Mario character. It’s just a thought but it does seem like Square may have some kind of contingency on their characters.

 

[SPEN18]

Well I don't think the Sak bias will extend to the choices from Nintendo (though people do say the Sak bias is why we got Terry). Sakurai is already of the opinion there's too much FE, but defers to Nintendo's agenda on that one. It's just that Kirby doesn't fit under the type of series Nintendo uses for promo.

Ironically, even if Nintendo took greater overall control, I also think Kirby may be the one series Nintendo would still defer to Sakurai on, out of respect.

So unless someone else is choosing the characters Sakurai normally does, I don't see this changing much.

Yeah, "Sak bias" definitely gets shade for things it's not responsible for. That much is fair.

As for Nintendo and/or the new director deferring to Sakurai on Kirby specifically in the case that Sakurai is no longer the director...plausible but of course speculative (like most of this). Depends on the dynamic between Sakurai and the new director, and how much the new director wants to follow Sakurai's lead/suggestions vs. doing things their own way. I imagine at least that whoever is made the new director is going to have the final call on things.

When I say I expect "Sak bias" to diminish, I mean it more as the result of potentially having a new director, not as much that whoever is the director would lose creative control to Nintendo on the things that traditionally Sakurai had control over (though things skewing more towards Nintendo overall is a possibility).

Yeah, but BWD having a prominent place in Kirby isn't new at this point. While he's the obvious next in line, being fourth in line, with the other three bigger character already in, and Kirby not being a series Nintendo generally decides for, and it still kind of being Sakurai's series... I don't really see the hook there for them to intervene on his choices.

Not like how if Sakurai thought series like Animal Crossing or Minecraft wouldn't work, it could prompt someone coming to "persuade" him. That's excluding a very big, very popular series. This is just a supporting character (as in, not the lead) in a series that already has several bigger characters.

Not to say BWD doesn't merit inclusion, just that, of all the characters Nintendo could get on Sakurai's case about not including, I doubt it'd be this one. If they don't tell him how to handle Zelda, I doubt they'll tell him how to handle Kirby. Nor does HAL seem to care either.

Well I personally view BWD's role in FL as a step up from his previous "player 4" role. His prominence has only increased in recent years. I agree that nobody would likely "intervene" so overtly on BWD's behalf, but I could see it coming up in his discussions with staff if he's either (1) opting to add no new Kirby reps for the third straight game or (2) opting to specifically avoid the obvious next in line in favor of another Kirby rep. Don't know if that would be enough to change his mind, tho.

At this point though, the pattern is still strong enough that I think BWD's shot is less promising and more restricted to specific routes than others do.

To be honest, I get it. It actually feels weird for me to be arguing in favor of BWD's likelihood like this because for a long time I was in the boat thinking he was quite overvalued by the community. Now, well, it's still no secret that my dream Kirby rep would be Marx (funnily enough someone who would probably be branded as a "Sak bias" pick) but I don't deny that BWD has the credentials to make it in also.

 

[Wunderwaft]

On the other hand, I do think BWD would. Though he should be able to get in based on other qualities, I think the only way Sakurai relents on his whole preferential Kirby deal is if the fans are loud enough. To that end I don't agree with people rating BWD as a very likely addition. I think he's definitely possible, but I think getting past Sakurai himself prevents an easy path. Though this is a non-issue if someone else has taken over selection.

Though, even if BWD does get in, and does get in via the fanbase, I do think there would be room for more than one, especially if the next game has a normal-sized base instead of Ultimate basically having three unrestricted slots for original first-party newcomers.

I'm glad you brought up BWD and Sakurai because on paper BWD is a character that realisticially would've been added as far back as Smash 4, but hasn't. It's not even just BWD, but Sakurai in general seems to be allergic to putting in Kirby content from games he didn't work on.

With that said, one can always make the argument that Ultimate wasn't the right time because of the nature of that game and whatnot. In the next game however there won't really be any excuses. If Forgotten Land doesn't get represented in the next game despite being a big milestone for the series then Sakurai's just trolling at this point.

 

[dream1ng]

Geno’s whole thing was it just never seemed to be the “right time” I don’t mean that in a way that he wasn’t popular but aside from not getting a new game, Square-Enix just always had other priorities for characters. I’m sure Geno’s popularity reflected in the Smash ballot without a doubt but seeing as how Cloud, Hero, and Sephiroth all had respective developments of a new game around their announcements in Smash it seems like they secured priority.

With that being said we need to take into account that Geno is first and foremost a Square owned character despite being a Mario character. With that being said there seems to be an odd, yet understandable pattern with Square characters and that’s the fact that they all have been DLC in their respective games. I’m not sure if it’s some kind of profit split issue, licensing issue, or even just timing but it seems likely that Geno would follow suit next time around.

Meaning that Toad, Waluigi, or whoever else is just as likely to be the token base roster Mario character. It’s just a thought but it does seem like Square may have some kind of contingency on their characters.

I think most third-parties prefer being DLC because the back-end profit deals are better than the likely lump sum of base (with possible but probably worse back-end). That's why you saw even the returning third-party costumes remain DLC while the first-parties showed up in base.

My theory is that also informed Castlevania's inclusion, in tandem with their demand. Because Simon was requested, but not... the most requested. Sakurai did imply there were other factors as to why Castlevania was chosen past the ballot, and I think Konami just doesn't give a **** as long as there's money, so it made them more amenable to base than some others.

Who obviously all were amenable with the vets, but for some may have come contingent with also receiving a character via DLC. I suspect, at least, this happened with Square, specifically with Cloud and Sephiroth. Which, in retrospect, could be why the FF7 content arrived as it did.

Yeah, "Sak bias" definitely gets shade for things it's not responsible for. That much is fair.

As for Nintendo and/or the new director deferring to Sakurai on Kirby specifically in the case that Sakurai is no longer the director...plausible but of course speculative (like most of this). Depends on the dynamic between Sakurai and the new director, and how much the new director wants to follow Sakurai's lead/suggestions vs. doing things their own way. I imagine at least that whoever is made the new director is going to have the final call on things.

When I say I expect "Sak bias" to diminish, I mean it more as the result of potentially having a new director, not as much that whoever is the director would lose creative control to Nintendo on the things that traditionally Sakurai had control over (though things skewing more towards Nintendo overall is a possibility).

Yeah, it comes down to how the roster selection differs from in the past. If Sakurai retains pretty much the same control of the same aspects, I don't think it will much. If someone else takes lead, it comes down to how they handle Kirby. While I don't think Sakurai would add BWD without being compelled by high demand, I also don't think he'd veto the idea from the new potential director. So it depends on the structure of the selection process.

But given we don't know how that will manifest... I'm just going with the current paradigm for now.

Well I personally view BWD's role in FL as a step up from his previous "player 4" role. His prominence has only increased in recent years. I agree that nobody would likely "intervene" so overtly on BWD's behalf, but I could see it coming up in his discussions with staff if he's either (1) opting to add no new Kirby reps for the third straight game or (2) opting to specifically avoid the obvious next in line in favor of another Kirby rep. Don't know if that would be enough to change his mind, tho.

Well I also imagine that the topic of including content from more than three old Kirby games from the 90s (and Air Ride) has come up in the past as well, and that has resulted in very little so far in terms of major content.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the character was presented to Sakurai during the selection process. But if Sakurai opts against the character, I don't think anyone there will override that decision. And I think what makes him opt against that character isn't impacted much by BWD's role in the series, because I don't think he really cares what happens in the non-Sakurai Kirby games. But I do think he cares about fan demand.

So I think the selection process will either have to involve Sakurai less, or present a case for BWD outside of achievement from within the games.

To be honest, I get it. It actually feels weird for me to be arguing in favor of BWD's likelihood like this because for a long time I was in the boat thinking he was quite overvalued by the community. Now, well, it's still no secret that my dream Kirby rep would be Marx (funnily enough someone who would probably be branded as a "Sak bias" pick) but I don't deny that BWD has the credentials to make it in also.

Nor do I deny BWD's credentials. I think, on paper, he would have a very good shot.

But I think Sakurai presents an obstacle that palpably undercuts his chances. Certainly not eliminates them, certainly doesn't make him a pipe dream, but just makes things more difficult to the point I don't think he can be considered an obvious choice.

I'm glad you brought up BWD and Sakurai because on paper BWD is a character that realisticially would've been added as far back as Smash 4, but hasn't. It's not even just BWD, but Sakurai in general seems to be allergic to putting in Kirby content from games he didn't work on.

With that said, one can always make the argument that Ultimate wasn't the right time because of the nature of that game and whatnot.

Smash 4... might be a little early, considering when the roster was being chosen that guy really only had RtDL. And yes, given how few spots there actually were for original first-parties in Ultimate, even if there was no bias at play, BWD not getting in would've been explainable.

But that wouldn't be looking at all the info we have available. Past the fact that up until now, the Kirby bias seems alive and real, apart from potentially understandably not being playable, BWD is barely anything. In 4, he was nothing. Not even a trophy. Then the ballot happens and BWD probably does well considering he has no role in the game. He did well on exit polls.

But then Ultimate comes and he's just an upgraded spirit. There's no proof here that BWD isn't subject to the same things that keeps the rest of the series restricted, in terms of major content, almost exclusively to the four Sakurai games. Because yeah, maybe there were excuses for BWD. What is the excuse for every Kirby stage, AT, boss and item coming from one of four games in a 30+ game series? I think the answer to that informs BWD as well.

In the next game however there won't really be any excuses. If Forgotten Land doesn't get represented in the next game despite being a big milestone for the series then Sakurai's just trolling at this point.

I agree excluding FL from major content would be wild. But something else that is wild is, excluding remakes, and other than the one Air Ride item, the newest Kirby game with major content (character/stage/AT/boss/item) is from the SNES.

I think 3D Kirby may buck the trend. But, representing FL doesn't necessarily extend to character inclusion. Look at Zelda games.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

[QUOTE="Soy_Man, post: 24857838, member: 401827"
Well, some of us still appreciate them as neat additions to the game. And call me an ***hole, but I don't really care if someone, somewhere was devastated that the pacman ghosts were deconfirmed.
[/QUOTE]

That sentiment goes both ways. What are those "neat additions" that warrant the effort in the first place?

My point was that assist trophies serve as perfectly adequate representation for mooks, because generally speaking, assist trophies perform a very limited range of actions and the same can be said for mooks.

They are limited as you wanted to be. My listed examples prove they can be much more.