Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[TCT~Phantom]

I honestly don’t get why people need so many veterans reworked entirely. I know it is one of the cruxes for a reboot but to be honest, we don’t really need it. I think the idea of a hard nuclear reboot alone is not gonna happen, just due to how well Ultimate did. Nintendo is not going to rock the boat hard when Smash Ultimate sold over 30 million copies. It sold more than Brawl, Melee, and Smash Wii U combined IIRC. They are not going to decide now is the time to start from scratch, especially when Ultimate could be used as a base to ease development.

Having basic characters is a good thing. An easy to understand Mario or Donkey Kong or Kirby is a good thing. If every character was some sort of complex character, that would be alienating to new players. Those simple characters help people learn the ropes in the game. It also is alienating to older players if you completely rework a character from the ground up. It’s easier for returning players to pick up and get back into things with someone they played as in the past. I can’t count the number of times I played with people not as into smash as I was, ecstatic that Lucas or Kirby or Ganon “felt” like their Braw incarnation. I also brought up earlier how these basic characters, like in the original 8 characters, show off many different archetypes and serve as a solid backbone to learn from or divorce from. From a gameplay perspective, we do not need a hard reboot or to revamp two dozen veterans.

I know some people also want some veterans to get a bit of an overhaul to “feel” more like their canon games. I think part of this is just due to how modern Smash has plenty of characters who are love letters to their games. But even in Ultimate, the vast majority of characters still have workhouse moves. Not every move is going to be a one to one direct interpretation. The important thing is getting the flavor or the fantasy of a character in their moveset. Mario is the all rounder. Ridley is a vicious monster. Sephiroth feels like a boss character. Steve and Mega Man feel like fighting game interpretations of their games. Marth is a swordsman who focuses on finesse. Pokémon Trainer prioritizes flexibility. Joker is a nimble phantom thief. I could go on. Even some of the more maligned examples for movesets that could be polished up fit this motif. Ganon is the pure embodiment of power, while Sonic is the fastest thing alive. Do I think you could and should touch up on these movesets for a variety of reasons? Sure, but it moreso illustrates the point that be big concern with Smash is not just direct representation but the spirit of the character or their game/games of origin. Even then, you don’t need a hard reboot for there to be some reworks. Ultimate had partial reworks for Ganon, Zelda, Link, Pichu, and Pokémon Trainer. If you want a more canonical Samus, Ganondorf, and Sonic, you don’t need a hard reboot.

I doubt a hard reboot would do much balance wise. Ultimate is the best balanced game in the series. Almost the entire cast is viable in some way shape or form. If anything, reinventing the wheel could just as easily make balance harder and worse early on. Smash has refined the balance of most of the veterans from Brawl and earlier. Sure, some like Ganon or Kirby have seen better days, but for the most part Smash already has a good idea on how to make as many characters as possible useable.

I get why people might want a hard reboot: it would be different. People would want a game that is exactly how they would like it, perfect movesets, perfect rosters, etc. But people let perfect be the enemy of good so much in this community. Is Ultimate perfect? No, for a variety of reasons. But a hard reboot is not the answer. It’s a solution that is harder on the development team because it constrains their ability to use past resources. It needlessly rocks the boat when Smash has sold so well. It alienates the casual fandom and makes it harder for them to get back into Smash. Throwing out so much from Ultimate when it is such a good resource to pull from for the next Smash is just not the answer.

 

[Sid-cada]

I get why people might want a hard reboot: it would be different. People would want a game that is exactly how they would like it, perfect movesets, perfect rosters, etc. But people let perfect be the enemy of good so much in this community. Is Ultimate perfect? No, for a variety of reasons. But a hard reboot is not the answer. It’s a solution that is harder on the development team because it constrains their ability to use past resources. It needlessly rocks the boat when Smash has sold so well. It alienates the casual fandom and makes it harder for them to get back into Smash. Throwing out so much from Ultimate when it is such a good resource to pull from for the next Smash is just not the answer.

Personally, I think a reboot is going to be an eventuality we will have to accept. At some point, there will be a time when the roster becomes unsustainable. While you might argue if Ultimate has reached that point or not, simply porting the game with add-ons is kicking the can down the road, not actually solving the problem.

Ultimate has become so big, many see it as too big to top. So they're forced to come to one of two things if Smash were to truly continue: either port the game to the next system, or reboot it so it can try to stand on it's own. If they're going to do it, now's probably as good a time to do it as ever, as Ultimate makes a good last hurrah before we say goodbye to this style.

Now, what that reboot entails is something of a matter of debate. It could be something wild, like going for a 3D fighter. It could be something smaller, like a complete refurbishment of the roster. Personally, I advocate for making it so using a tilt while pressing the special button causes a different special move to occur when you perform a smash while pressing the button. It's a simple, easy to understand change that feels like a natural extension from what Smash already does, while being flashy enough to get attention. That's approximately a 15% increase in moves across the board, roughly a little over the work of 12 characters, assuming no cuts and a Special takes as much work to make as a more standard move (and lets face it, that's not quite true). That's probably not the only good way to handle it, but it's just my pet proposal.

That said, take this with a grain of salt. I'll admit, Ultimate wasn't quite as griping to me as most people; I'm probably the only person on this board who never fully unlocked the default roster. As such, the thought of "Ultimate, but again" isn't very appealing to me, and I'd rather see something new.

 

[dream1ng]

Honestly i think they'll probably just do what they did with 4, which was just trimming the fat from Brawls roster and then adding some new faces.

Cut the more redundant characters out, or as you said the ones they couldn't license again.

Who knows maybe they'll even cut some of the Marth's.

No game completely throws the previous one away and starts 100% fresh, but 4 rebuilt its characters, as Brawl did from Melee. It didn't take Brawl and was just like "Wolf? Lucas? Squirtle? Nah". If it had there would've been no reason to cut those characters.

It wouldn't be feasible to do what they did for 4, because they only rebuilt, what? 30-something characters? That's feasible. Triple that, even double that, and you're looking at completely different picture.

The only one that just picked up where it left off was Ultimate from 4.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Plus, Ivysaur, Squirtle etc. weren't "trimming the fat". That's severely misleading. It was impossible to use all of Pokemon Trainer, and separating them would take a very long time to outright balance them out with all new moves. Charizard escaped the cuts by being the most popular of the three. Lucas or Ness was getting cut, but Ness won out in the end. Wolf was a very missed cut overall, but with no new games coming out, it's not like DLC was an easy reasoning. Zero got pushed outward too far to justify a return. Falco was also way easier to make. IC's of course didn't make it in for 3DS problems. The same issue that reduced Pikmin & Olimar to three summons. Oof.

Snake is the only cut that we have no real clue why(just a guess that Konami was causing issues), while the rest were due to things like no new new games coming out or programming problems. The 3DS got most characters cut overall. There's no "fat" to trim, because every character is popular and returning everyone would be the inherent goal under Sakurai if overall possible. The most we got is a one-time replacement(Young Link was used to create Toon Link), and we already know he doesn't view it as a pure replacement so much as just another character at the time.

As for my thoughts on FE while we're at it;

• Marth: Not leaving.
  • Lucina: Probably staying, due to easy Echo.
• Roy: Could go either way.
  • Chrom: Is an Echo. Why cut him if Roy's there? So same as Lucina, just more dependent on Roy staying.
• Ike: Easy stay.
• Robin: Could go either way as well. I do expect one Awakening member to stay, but I'd say the order is most likely Lucina > Robin > Chrom.
• Corrin: Could go either way.
• Byleth: Could go either way.

I do agree we aren't going to get many cuts, but we have effectively six unique characters overall(the two Echoes are still pretty different from their base counterparts). I could easily see all staying, though. They all have their own niche. It's kind of awkward, due to who is an Echo and who isn't. With Awakening being easy to represent, you either have one of two Echoes(of which the second Echo pretty much is based upon Roy staying), or the fully unique character. Marth isn't leaving, so Lucina has a minor one-up over Robin. Robin is just that unique and really interesting to represent too. Corrin and Byleth are fun characters in their own right, but their DLC positions got them some unnecessary vitriol.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I always just kinda ssumed that they didnt bring Snake back at the time because Konami was a ****ing minefield of controversies in the early 2010's that nobody wanted to touch. So Nintendo just chose to avoid the headache.
They've never said anything tothat effect but that makes sense in my head.

This is probably something that only matters to me but if the next Smash also has Mii costumes i hope they include the music used in trailers for mii's that have no real representation in game, it kinda bothers me that the Tales of Symphonia fight music for example was something they paid to use but didn't put in the actual game.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I always just kinda ssumed that they didnt bring Snake back at the time because Konami was a ****ing minefield of controversies in the early 2010's that nobody wanted to touch. So Nintendo just chose to avoid the headache.
They've never said anything tothat effect but that makes sense in my head.

It could have also been Konami's quickly deteriorating relationship with Kojima left them hesitant to have the latter's most famous creation be spotlighted in something outside their strongest control. Depending on how long they planned to let him go, having Snake in a majorly spotlighted title while firing the one that conceived of him could have been seen as bringing them even worse PR than they got.

 

[dream1ng]

I always just kinda ssumed that they didnt bring Snake back at the time because Konami was a ****ing minefield of controversies in the early 2010's that nobody wanted to touch. So Nintendo just chose to avoid the headache.
They've never said anything tothat effect but that makes sense in my head.

The impression is that they didn't even try to get Snake back until 4's DLC, whereupon they failed to do so (which is attested, though I don't have the source onhand). For Konami ****ery reasons, I guess. It is strange that in such short order they acquired him for Ultimate then, considering how overlapping 4's DLC and Ultimate's base were in creation.

Maybe it was easier to buy in bulk from Konami, get yourself some Castlevania and Bomberman while you're at it. lol

This is probably something that only matters to me but if the next Smash also has Mii costumes i hope they include the music used in trailers for mii's that have no real representation in game, it kinda bothers me that the Tales of Symphonia fight music for example was something they paid to use but didn't put in the actual game.

It would certainly be great to get all that music, but the cost of licensing a snippet of a song for the trailer and licensing the song for the game are almost definitely a good distance from each other.

It's no coincidence that the only costumes that came with music were the indies, who are, presumably, significantly cheaper to license.

 

[MomijiInubashiri630]

In regards to Konami, seeing how in Smash Ultimate they are the company with the second most content by a 3rd party in Smash, they obviously weren't the issue in Smash 4. Nintendo just didn't bother. Konami basically gave tons of **** away for free in Ultimate lol. I wouldn't be surprised if we got even more next time.

This is probably something that only matters to me but if the next Smash also has Mii costumes i hope they include the music used in trailers for mii's that have no real representation in game, it kinda bothers me that the Tales of Symphonia fight music for example was something they paid to use but didn't put in the actual game.

Completely different license fees, trailers =/= game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Keep in mind it's not the licensing fees, it's just that it sucks we didn't get the music from the trailers in the final game. The reasoning why isn't the point. That's a lot of cool music that would've been nice to listen to outside of the trailer.

But yeah, it probably cost more beyond a trailer because the item is being sold(DLC). I don't know enough about licensing, but that's just my guess on why it's not in the actual game.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Its also worth noting that Japanese video game music rights RE: companies and composers have tended to be tricky, more often than Western ones.

Nintendo having virtually no issues in reusing their in house soundtracks makes them the exception in comparison to Sega or Square Enix.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

Plus, Ivysaur, Squirtle etc. weren't "trimming the fat". That's severely misleading. It was impossible to use all of Pokemon Trainer, and separating them would take a very long time to outright balance them out with all new moves. Charizard escaped the cuts by being the most popular of the three. Lucas or Ness was getting cut, but Ness won out in the end. Wolf was a very missed cut overall, but with no new games coming out, it's not like DLC was an easy reasoning. Zero got pushed outward too far to justify a return. Falco was also way easier to make. IC's of course didn't make it in for 3DS problems. The same issue that reduced Pikmin & Olimar to three summons. Oof.

Snake is the only cut that we have no real clue why(just a guess that Konami was causing issues), while the rest were due to things like no new new games coming out or programming problems. The 3DS got most characters cut overall. There's no "fat" to trim, because every character is popular and returning everyone would be the inherent goal under Sakurai if overall possible. The most we got is a one-time replacement(Young Link was used to create Toon Link), and we already know he doesn't view it as a pure replacement so much as just another character at the time.

As for my thoughts on FE while we're at it;

• Marth: Not leaving.
  • Lucina: Probably staying, due to easy Echo.
• Roy: Could go either way.
  • Chrom: Is an Echo. Why cut him if Roy's there? So same as Lucina, just more dependent on Roy staying.
• Ike: Easy stay.
• Robin: Could go either way as well. I do expect one Awakening member to stay, but I'd say the order is most likely Lucina > Robin > Chrom.
• Corrin: Could go either way.
• Byleth: Could go either way.

I do agree we aren't going to get many cuts, but we have effectively six unique characters overall(the two Echoes are still pretty different from their base counterparts). I could easily see all staying, though. They all have their own niche. It's kind of awkward, due to who is an Echo and who isn't. With Awakening being easy to represent, you either have one of two Echoes(of which the second Echo pretty much is based upon Roy staying), or the fully unique character. Marth isn't leaving, so Lucina has a minor one-up over Robin. Robin is just that unique and really interesting to represent too. Corrin and Byleth are fun characters in their own right, but their DLC positions got them some unnecessary vitriol.

Here's what I chose. Marth, Lucina, Ike, Robin, and Byleth will stay. The rest won't return. Chrom will be in Robin's FS

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Its also worth noting that Japanese video game music rights RE: companies and composers have tended to be tricky, more often than Western ones.

Nintendo having virtually no issues in reusing their in house soundtracks makes them the exception in comparison to Sega or Square Enix.

It's why some games tend to not leave Japan.

 

[dream1ng]

In regards to Konami, seeing how in Smash Ultimate they are the company with the second most content by a 3rd party in Smash, they obviously weren't the issue in Smash 4. Nintendo just didn't bother. Konami basically gave tons of **** away for free in Ultimate lol. I wouldn't be surprised if we got even more next time.

Fine, I'll go find the source.

Official - Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

The only thing I hope out of this pass is that there's a character from a game I actually play.

smashboards.com

Beyonetta was the first pick among realisable characters. Above her, there were old veterans like Snake and other characters that were already tried negotiating but got rejected. (p63)

What I'll give you is that this seems like both a rough translation and the second sentence seems to imply Snake was negotiated for and rejected, though it is technically semantically ambiguous.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I thought Snake was pretty clearly negotiated for and rejected with those details(but only for DLC). It's just not clear if that happened during the base game at all.

I forgot that about the DLC stuff. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

[Sucumbio]

Here's what I chose. Marth, Lucina, Ike, Robin, and Byleth will stay. The rest won't return. Chrom will be in Robin's FS

This eliminates Roy's movement style and still duplicates marths... Wouldn't it make more sense to keep one of each?

 

[Gengar84]

This eliminates Roy's movement style and still duplicates marths... Wouldn't it make more sense to keep one of each?

It’s probably a lot less work and development time to keep Lucina over Roy. Since Lucina is almost identical to Marth without the topper mechanic, it should be very easy to include her and no real reason to remove her. Roy has a lot more variation so at least there’s a feasible reason he could be cut for lack of development time.

 

[SPEN18]

I honestly don’t get why people need so many veterans reworked entirely. I know it is one of the cruxes for a reboot but to be honest, we don’t really need it. I think the idea of a hard nuclear reboot alone is not gonna happen, just due to how well Ultimate did. Nintendo is not going to rock the boat hard when Smash Ultimate sold over 30 million copies. It sold more than Brawl, Melee, and Smash Wii U combined IIRC. They are not going to decide now is the time to start from scratch, especially when Ultimate could be used as a base to ease development.

"We don't really need it" doesn't feel like a substantive argument here; that can apply to so many things that it hardly says anything beyond the (admittedly sometimes useful) reminder that "Smash is a video game that is largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of your life."
And having stellar sales is not in itself an excuse to stop reimagining, reinventing, evolving a product. Otherwise I could just say, "Sword and Shield sold amazingly well, so let's not change that formula for Pokémon ever again."

--

Having basic characters is a good thing. An easy to understand Mario or Donkey Kong or Kirby is a good thing. If every character was some sort of complex character, that would be alienating to new players. Those simple characters help people learn the ropes in the game. It also is alienating to older players if you completely rework a character from the ground up. It’s easier for returning players to pick up and get back into things with someone they played as in the past. I can’t count the number of times I played with people not as into smash as I was, ecstatic that Lucas or Kirby or Ganon “felt” like their Braw incarnation. I also brought up earlier how these basic characters, like in the original 8 characters, show off many different archetypes and serve as a solid backbone to learn from or divorce from. From a gameplay perspective, we do not need a hard reboot or to revamp two dozen veterans.

Well, I agree with having sufficiently many newbie-friendly movesets on the roster but I don't think reworking a handful of vets is going to shatter that. For one, a reworked moveset is not necessarily a substantially more complex moveset; you can make changes and alter the feel of a character without sacrificing accessibility. Second, I'm really not worried about the quantity of newbie-friendly movesets on the roster to begin with, even if a few vets did become more complex, as we have plenty of them right now that I don't think need that much changing. And third, if you are worried about said quantity of newbie-friendly PCs, then you can always make newcomers with newbie-friendly movesets; besides Ult, we have always had newcomers on the starting roster and those can be filled with simpler sets if necessary.

As for people potentially being disappointed about changes, I can understand that to an extent but I feel the worry for that effect is way overblown. Sure, some people will be a bit disappointed but as long as the game has holistically good gameplay and enough fun content in it, for the vast majority of people that will be only a minor knock and not a roadblock to enjoyment of the game. In any case I don't see it having any tangible effects on sales. And, lastly, for all the people disappointed about a particular change, it is just as likely that there would be an equal or great number of people excited about the change, and still others will come to enjoy the changes after trying them out. I feel very similarly about backlash from cuts; the effect is way overblown and in any case not likely at all to negatively impact the overall financial and critical success of the game, even ignoring any potential new content that can gain priority at the expense of the cut content.

--

I do agree though that not every move has to be a direct translation of the source material. But even with that agreement I still think there are some vets' movesets which could benefit from some changes.

And, yes, you can revamp movesets without doing a hard reboot. Probably a lot of people rooting for revamps would even prefer that. However, Sakurai-led Smash has been so resistant to significant moveset revamps that I think a lot of people perceive a reboot to be the best chance of actually getting them.

--

I doubt a hard reboot would do much balance wise. Ultimate is the best balanced game in the series. Almost the entire cast is viable in some way shape or form. If anything, reinventing the wheel could just as easily make balance harder and worse early on. Smash has refined the balance of most of the veterans from Brawl and earlier. Sure, some like Ganon or Kirby have seen better days, but for the most part Smash already has a good idea on how to make as many characters as possible useable.

They have to rebalance all the characters in each new installment, even in a heavy-asset-reuse scenario like 4 to Ult. So I don't think changing movesets would necessarily make the balance harder, certainly not any more than adding completely unique newcomers does. But if a reboot means giving us a smaller roster size, then yes that smaller roster could be beneficial to the balancing.

--

But a hard reboot is not the answer. It’s a solution that is harder on the development team because it constrains their ability to use past resources.

Er, if anything is going to be harder on the development team, it would be trying to bring back everyone in the next fully new game...part of the point of rebooting over simply making cuts would be to give them an even better excuse to not bring everyone back, and to not make the next game look like Ultimate Lite.

 

[Sucumbio]

It’s probably a lot less work and development time to keep Lucina over Roy. Since Lucina is almost identical to Marth without the topper mechanic, it should be very easy to include her and no real reason to remove her. Roy has a lot more variation so at least there’s a feasible reason he could be cut for lack of development time.

I guess I'd rather lose echoes but it's true just eliminating the Roy / Chrom design altogether would free up resources. That is of course if the next game doesn't reuse Ultimate's designs.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

So i just wanna say, i dont see why they should update the movesets for the older characters, aside from maybe Samus, they all seem perfectly fine to me.

 

[CannonStreak]

I get why people might want a hard reboot: it would be different. People would want a game that is exactly how they would like it, perfect movesets, perfect rosters, etc. But people let perfect be the enemy of good so much in this community. Is Ultimate perfect? No, for a variety of reasons. But a hard reboot is not the answer. It’s a solution that is harder on the development team because it constrains their ability to use past resources. It needlessly rocks the boat when Smash has sold so well. It alienates the casual fandom and makes it harder for them to get back into Smash. Throwing out so much from Ultimate when it is such a good resource to pull from for the next Smash is just not the answer.

I do see what you mean. I mean, a reboot, let alone a hard reboot, is not easy to do as some may think it is. I mean, the developers already have enough trouble with their resources in making future games and making things for it like characters. If anything, a reboot makes it so that it takes more time to bring back characters and other things in later games after the reboot, and it may make making new things harder, in terms of rebooting the gameplay and other things, I mean, some things are better kept the same, and if a reboot were to change the gameplay, it may make it harder to appeal to those more familiar with the Smash games before.

It is not like a reboot would fix thing overnight, or even longer than that. A reboot may isolate some or even many fans, and it is not worth rebooting to try and appeal to any smaller group of people who are just tired with the current Smash games. Plus, the appeal of Smash may not be the same in a reboot, meaning that appeal may be lost by rebooting and doing everything over again. Like you said, it would constrain the developers' ability to use past resources, and come to think of it, using past resources in some ways may be more difficult if you have to reboot something, as a reboot may make it hard to reuse past resources, in the reboot game or in future games after.

But anyway, I do not think a reboot is the answer. I know there would be fans who would be upset, let alone potentially be unhappy with what the reboot gives them, and it is normally better to stick with and go with what one currently has. Plus, giving Smash Bros. a reboot has to have a good reason, and I do not think there is a good enough reason, nor do I think fans who do want a reboot may have a good enough reason to want one, no offense to them of course. Smash does sell well already, and a reboot, if it does any good, also has the potential to damage the ability for Smash Bros. games from the reboot to make money easily, even if it is done well.

 

[Sucumbio]

So i just wanna say, i dont see why they should update the movesets for the older characters, aside from maybe Samus, they all seem perfectly fine to me.

Mac needs some help, he is kinda kneecapped in the vertical sense which is murder on plat stages...

Ganondorf could use some help too.

 

[MBRedboy31]

I do have to admit, I’m rather curious about how they’d handle a reboot. It’s likely not the best idea for them to do that, but it certainly sounds like it could be interesting.

 

[dream1ng]

I would like an updated Samus and I would like a fully distinct Ganondorf, and other than that, I'm fine.

Though I wouldn't turn down a more Wario Land-inspired Wario either.

And maybe make Sonic a little more interesting.

So I guess I do have a list.

But it really is mostly just Samus and Ganondorf.

 

[HyperSomari64]

They get their reworks, but...

• Ganondorf is even worser and is Rock Bottom Tier
• Samus is now Male (an unattractive one)
• Wario's mouth is closed
• Sonic has the 2019 Movie Design, while having the voice from Sonic Schoolhouse

What character needs a "Monkey's Paw" rework?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Oh yeah they need to change Sonic's side B.

The rest of his moveset is fine but i cant remember what his side B is supposed to be.

 

[Perkilator]

Oh yeah they need to change Sonic's side B.

The rest of his moveset is fine but i cant remember what his side B is supposed to be.

Just a Spin Dash…again.

I’d say make it the Boost, but make it a brief burst of speed that deals moderate damage but has dangerous knockback

 

[SpecterFlower]

I mean...

Why wouldn't Min Min be included?

ARMS still exists.

so does Eternal Darkness.

So i just wanna say, i dont see why they should update the movesets for the older characters, aside from maybe Samus, they all seem perfectly fine to me.

I's very clear that old characters are old characters, kirby has the most varied moveset of any video game character and his moveset in smash is: hit down, hit up, hit neutral, hit forwards, hit backwards.

Roy is also extremely egregious, i've talked about this before but he is nothing like the actual roy, first thing they should do is actually make him 15 by shrinking his model, giving him his actual fighting style instead of the made up back hand one, and actually give him his personality instead of him screeching. not as much a moveset update but a personality one

what im trying to say is, play villager, look at how many references to his games are in his moves, play mario, look at how almost nothing does. i can understand that form characters like fox and captain falcon who have nothing to work with. but link, samus, mario, dk, kirby, marth, roy, luigi, bowser, peach, zelda and ganandorf all ery visibly have dated move sets both in terms of game play and in terms of their actual characters.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

so does Eternal Darkness.

How does that affect my point?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Something people forget is that Roy wasn't based upon his own game. He was literally put in the game to advertise his game, debuting in Melee as a character outright. He was a moveset clone of Marth because it was all he could take from. All that happened is he got updated in 4 to have more of a unique style so he doesn't play that similar to Marth anymore. He was never based upon his own game(nor could he really be in the first place). Changing him that severely doesn't work. Completely changing his size means he's an entirely different character. He's always been essentially a Smash OC, and that's fine. That's why he's popular too, because he does his own thing.

He's one of four characters who aren't remotely based upon anything from their own games(Mii Fighters, as each one is more meant to represent a Class system specific to Smash Bros.) and Roy himself. Even Ganondorf takes multiple animations or artworks from OOT and utilizes it as early as Melee. Brawl and later gave him parts from his games(including a Tech Demo in Ultimate). It's hard to find a character who doesn't have a move unique to Smash. The Fighting Game Characters do take this route, though there might be a few things not from the games(or any other media, mind you).

MegaMan focuses on a similar thing, too. Villager/Isabelle at most having a random stick usage, but otherwise are pretty good at this, only lightly modifying the function of a move. Wii Fit Trainer barely changes her techniques for Smash(mostly because her attacks are all specific moves that technically can hurt a person if done with enough force. A lot of odd moves exist because we look at them as purely passive, but in reality, there's the ability to turn nearly anything into a fighting style if someone tries). Which is kind of the point of how they're able to pull a move out. Either by using animations and make them battle-capable or just making a move up on the spot that fits a character's design.

It's not really till 4 that characters try to heavily focus on being more canon. And that can have balance issues too. MegaMan is great, but his arsenal can become awkward(not to say it's a bad moveset. It's pretty cool and fun how it works). On the other hand, we have the opposite in Pac-Man who doesn't focus on canon abilities so much as Arcade-related moves that make him a far more unique character that works rather well. Bayonetta is so canon she wiped the floor with others, same with Cloud. Both got nerfed over time(and the next game). Pichu got damage to itself to reference a lack of control over its abilities(not a specific ability from the game, but more related to the anime design), and that made it a very bad character till its return in Ultimate. Then you have Jigglypuff instantly popped like a ballooon and can auto-KO on top of the screen if its shield is broken, simply to have it be a joke character(this didn't work in Smash 64, but it did happen to be lower tier in Brawl and 4 at least, funnily enough).

 

[osby]

How does that affect my point?

"ARMS is dead just like Eternal Darkness because it didn't get a game for a few years now but don't worry about Donkey Kong or Star Fox."

 

[Oracle Link]

While we're on the subject, I made a roster for what I think the next game's roster might look like. It's so far out it's impossible to say for certain how it'll look, but this is an option I think plausible.
View attachment 367617
the reason i mostly used smash 4 renders? i felt nostalgic for them, nothing more or less.

Considering how much i tried pleasing everyone with 60 spots and with everyone wanting diffrent things im gonna decide Screw this Poop im never gonna do that again! Anyways your Roster Let me take a look! You did cut the 3 less liked MArio Chars, Added Waluigi, Ashley and Dixie Okay
Than you added Ganon? Okay I ususally dont do this but i guess Ganon keeps his CAptain Falcon moveset than? Bandana Dee Im Happy That everyone seems to agree to add him! A New Pokemon, A new FE Char and KK SLider i guess he could have a music based Moveset! I guess we get a new Xenoblade Char Oh You Cutted Everyone From Kid Icarus Interesting! Akira is from Astral chain Right? Chibi Robo Cute Isaac also cool! Is The Octoling the Enemy Version or the Protagonist Version? Phoenix Wright Cool i hope he is slightly easier to play in smash! IORI WEird how Fatal fury/ King of Fighters is the only one with a second char! Also Kris Will Be Fun Controling him like a Meat Puppet in Smash!

 

[Dinoman96]

so does Eternal Darkness.

Alexandra Roivas is already a playable character?

 

[Opossum]

For the record i dont mind Fire emblem having so many characters, i just find it annoying that four of them play exactly the same.

It's 2023 and people still think Roy is a carbon copy of Marth in Ultimate.

"Tell me you don't play the characters in question without explicitly saying it."

 

[Geno Boost]

Most fire emblem reps are for advertisement but why other series such as Zelda and Kirby mainly don’t get the same treatment despite having bigger audience and new games coming that can be advertised?
The minimum can at least be having Dark Link or Galacta Knight or Dark Meta Knight as an echo fighters that would at least better than nothing since brawl

 

[fogbadge]

Most fire emblem reps are for advertisement but why other series such as Zelda and Kirby mainly don’t get the same treatment despite having bigger audience and new games coming that can be advertised?
The minimum can at least be having Dark Link or Galacta Knight or Dark Meta Knight as an echo fighters that would at least better than nothing since brawl

kirby is probably cause sakurai wanted to focus on his own trio

 

[Aligo]

"ARMS is dead just like Eternal Darkness because it didn't get a game for a few years now but don't worry about Donkey Kong or Star Fox."

Isn't the big issue that ARMS is tied to joy con controls?

Also couldn't they have a mii style custom fire emblem character that you change the tilts, appearance and specials of? I mean all the characters in three houses are based off of around 5 sets of animations for battle and non battle, with a few extra for unique classes.

It could be a way of allowing for a very large number of potential fe characters while also cutting down the CSS.

 

[chocolatejr9]

"ARMS is dead just like Eternal Darkness because it didn't get a game for a few years now but don't worry about Donkey Kong or Star Fox."

Okay, TBF, we're not entirely sure what Nintendo's plan is for ARMS at this point. The fact they added Min Min at all would suggest they wanna do SOMETHING with the IP, but...

 

[SpecterFlower]

Something people forget is that Roy wasn't based upon his own game. He was literally put in the game to advertise his game, debuting in Melee as a character outright. He was a moveset clone of Marth because it was all he could take from. All that happened is he got updated in 4 to have more of a unique style so he doesn't play that similar to Marth anymore. He was never based upon his own game(nor could he really be in the first place). Changing him that severely doesn't work. Completely changing his size means he's an entirely different character. He's always been essentially a Smash OC, and that's fine. That's why he's popular too, because he does his own thing.

He's one of four characters who aren't remotely based upon anything from their own games(Mii Fighters, as each one is more meant to represent a Class system specific to Smash Bros.) and Roy himself. Even Ganondorf takes multiple animations or artworks from OOT and utilizes it as early as Melee. Brawl and later gave him parts from his games(including a Tech Demo in Ultimate). It's hard to find a character who doesn't have a move unique to Smash. The Fighting Game Characters do take this route, though there might be a few things not from the games(or any other media, mind you).

MegaMan focuses on a similar thing, too. Villager/Isabelle at most having a random stick usage, but otherwise are pretty good at this, only lightly modifying the function of a move. Wii Fit Trainer barely changes her techniques for Smash(mostly because her attacks are all specific moves that technically can hurt a person if done with enough force. A lot of odd moves exist because we look at them as purely passive, but in reality, there's the ability to turn nearly anything into a fighting style if someone tries). Which is kind of the point of how they're able to pull a move out. Either by using animations and make them battle-capable or just making a move up on the spot that fits a character's design.

It's not really till 4 that characters try to heavily focus on being more canon. And that can have balance issues too. MegaMan is great, but his arsenal can become awkward(not to say it's a bad moveset. It's pretty cool and fun how it works). On the other hand, we have the opposite in Pac-Man who doesn't focus on canon abilities so much as Arcade-related moves that make him a far more unique character that works rather well. Bayonetta is so canon she wiped the floor with others, same with Cloud. Both got nerfed over time(and the next game). Pichu got damage to itself to reference a lack of control over its abilities(not a specific ability from the game, but more related to the anime design), and that made it a very bad character till its return in Ultimate. Then you have Jigglypuff instantly popped like a ballooon and can auto-KO on top of the screen if its shield is broken, simply to have it be a joke character(this didn't work in Smash 64, but it did happen to be lower tier in Brawl and 4 at least, funnily enough).

which is why most character pre 4 could use touching up, smash 4 newcomers should be the standard going forwards

"ARMS is dead just like Eternal Darkness because it didn't get a game for a few years now but don't worry about Donkey Kong or Star Fox."

I’m not even gonna bother arguing this cause this is the stupidest comparison you could make, yes ARMS sold pretty well, however Nintendo canceled everything to do with the series after like 2019.

maybe a more apt comparison from my end is sushi strikers.

 

[Aligo]

I suppose that there is also the point that DK and star fox are series's rather than an individual game like ARMS.

 

[fogbadge]

Isn't the big issue that ARMS is tied to joy con controls?

no you can use button controls