Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Dee Dude]

I still don't understand this whole "Ivysaur is on the chopping block" thing because I would assume Pokemon Trainer would be the one on the project plan (because Sakurai brought them back as a package deal in Ultimate when he could've separated them like every other transformation character), and we can very clearly make that character work again, unlike in Smash 3DS, so you would presumably build Charizard who would have very high priority because it's ****ing Charizard with the ability to switch to Squirtle.

Even assuming Squirtle and Ivysaur aren't built immediately after to have the full functioning character for testing purposes, why on earth would Ivysaur be saved for SO LATE in development that they'd end up axed due to time constraints?

isn’t going anywhere in general, he’s about as important to Pokémon as is.

Besides, Ultimate pushed him a lot in the marketing, he’s on the boxart, showed up in trailers, has a very visible spot on the classic mode mural, had his own scene in World of Light, was in the cel-shaded commercial with a 3D model and even went out of their way to include his female counterpart.

He’s clearly seen as a Smash staple now by the dev team and I just don’t see the Trainer mechanic getting cut again because “le time constraints/limitations” when the Switch 2 will be ten times more powerful and there’s no 3DS version to hold it back.

 

[HyperSomari64]

There are 3 technically four mechs which are basically the "moogle", "Noppon" or "Anna" of the series

Anna is no cutesy Scrimblo creature.
She still has an adorable and marketable design thou (despite there not be too many merchandise of her unlike the other FE characters lol)

 

[Kirbeh]

PT won't get cut, in fact, they're treating them like the stages now. Next game we get Pokemon Trainer 2.

 

[Arcanir]

PT is a character I feel that if they decide to make them, they're going to be in a position of high priority and thus would be made too early for cuts to be considered. PT is a character that requires a lot of time and resources to make, so the developers likely wouldn't put themselves in a position where they'd have to cut a third of the set as that'd mean the rest of the work (aside from Charizard) would go to waste, they'd make sure they'd have enough to complete all three.

 

[Laniv]

PT won't get cut, in fact, they're treating them like the stages now. Next game we get Pokemon Trainer 2.

Which region are they based on? (pleasesayhoenn)

 

[Kirbeh]

Which region are they based on? (pleasesayhoenn)

Unfortunately, I have to disappoint you, as they'd be Gen 4 ( made to match the primarily Gen 4 oriented PS2.) Also falling in line with the PS2 types, the Pokemon are Pachirisu, Glaceon and Garchomp.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

isn’t going anywhere in general, he’s about as important to Pokémon as is.

Besides, Ultimate pushed him a lot in the marketing, he was on the boxart, shows up in trailers, cutscenes and commercials and even went out of their way to include his female counterpart.

He’s clearly seen as a Smash staple now by the dev team and I just don’t see the Trainer mechanic getting cut again because “le time constraints/limitations” when the Switch 2 will be ten times more powerful and there’s no 3DS version to hold it back.View attachment 398160View attachment 398161View attachment 398162View attachment 398163

My opinion is that they are very unlikely to be cut unless they get replaced by a different PT or the developers want to just keep Charizard.

 

[Kirbeh]

New theory. Next game we get solo Zard again but he's a three way Pythra. Base Zard/X/Y and Gigantamax for the FS. TPC just wanted to make sure you didn't forget about him.

 

[Opossum]

New theory. Next game we get solo Zard again but he's a three way Pythra. Base Zard/X/Y and Gigantamax for the FS. TPC just wanted to make sure you didn't forget about him.

I misunderstood the first sentence as I was reading this and thought you were suggesting being able to swap between Pyra, Mythra, and Charizard.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I misunderstood the first sentence as I was reading this and thought you were suggesting being able to swap between Pyra, Mythra, and Charizard.

They nicknamed it "Rex".

 

[Kirbeh]

I misunderstood the first sentence as I was reading this and thought you were suggesting being able to swap between Pyra, Mythra, and Charizard.

If you gave one of them Rock Smash I wouldn't even question it.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

If you gave one of them Rock Smash I wouldn't even question it.

Call it Superstrength and make it fail half the time because you don't have the right Blades to use that Field Skill.

 

[SubspaceJigglypuff]

Even assuming Squirtle and Ivysaur aren't built immediately after?

and I just don’t see the Trainer mechanic getting cut again because “le time constraints/limitations”

I already said this earlier, but a justification to develop Squirtle/Ivysaur later would be opportunity cost. A (likely) smaller roster and the knowledge he won't be able to bring everyone back, makes this scenario different than Brawl/Smash 4 where there wasn't much threat of displacing multiple other Pokemon vets with the 3-in-1 Trainer. Again, I think it just comes down to what you think the devs will prioritize in vets in a trimmed down roster.

I'm predicting they'll try to cast a wide net to keep as much of the fans satisfied as possible; under that mentality, I could see them prioritize bringing back the rest of the non-clone Pokemon vets (Greninja, Lucario, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, Incineroar) first, to cover those four fanbases instead of just the one Trainer fanbase; prioritizing all 3 of them from the start could easily endanger more of these than necessary. Then if there's time remaining, they'll do Squirtle and Ivysaur (+Trainer) for their fans.

Of course Sakurai could also have a different vision that doesn't focus as much on broad preservation, which would make the losses easier to stomach.

--

(as for the Solo Squirtle stuff, idk, forget it)

If you gave one of them Rock Smash I wouldn't even question it.

Thanks, now I've got the visual of Pyra randomly taking a rock out her pocket and smashing someone on the head with it

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I'm predicting they'll try to cast a wide net to keep as much of the fans satisfied as possible; under that mentality, I could see them prioritize bringing back the rest of the non-clone Pokemon vets (Greninja, Lucario, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, Incineroar) first, to cover those four fanbases instead of just the one Trainer fanbase; prioritizing all 3 of them from the start could easily endanger more of these than necessary. Then if there's time remaining, they'll do Squirtle and Ivysaur (+Trainer) for their fans.

I mean I just don't think this would make a ton of sense though. Like I said, I would assume Trainer would be on the plan and Charizard would be pretty high priority because it's Charizard, so are they just gonna leave Charizard without a Down Special for all that time while they wait and see what happens with the rest of the roster, since Jigglypuff is usually pretty late, and then build Squirtle and Ivysaur alongside Charizard's Down Special, plus testing and balancing AFTER Jigglypuff somehow? Even if they decide to cut the other two at that point, you still have to animate Rock Smash and make a different Final Smash than Triple Finish, so Charizard would technically become lowest priority at that point since he was unfinished until then lol

I would sooner assume Trainer is just made at around the same time to have a fully functioning character for testng and balancing purposes and a different Pokemon character may have to bite the bullet on that one (pleasegodletitbelucarioihatehimsomuch).

 

[Hadokeyblade]

This is cool, but I think if they did a trailer in the AA style, they'd want it to be a bait-and-switch so that it's not immediately obvious that the trailer is for Smash.

I imagine it would be exactly like the courtroom skits that Capcom makes when they reveal new Ace Attorney games in Japan. With the characters being brought to the courtroom to hear the announcement live as well.

I can imagine the conversation being something like

"I hear some characters from a certain videogame series will be making a big guest spot really soon"

"A guest spot? What do you think Mr Edgeworth is talking about, Nick?"

"I hope it's not one of those battle royale type deals, im not to fond of the idea of using random firearms in a friendly game"

And then as they talk one of them makes the remark that the detective is taking their time coming to the stand, but instead of Gumshoe it's one of the Detective club characters, making you think it's a crossover of the two or something.
Only for the Detective club character to yell "Objection!" and present the invite, handing it to Phoenix, Phoenix silently thinks about it for a second and then screams out "EEEEEEEEHHHHH???"

 

[SPEN18]

I think one of the points of confusion here is we don't know if they'd make one of Squirt/Ivy first, then make the other, or if they'd be developed concurrently. If the former, it might make sense in some niche scenario for one of them to be pretty finished but the other to lag far enough behind to not make it; if the latter (which to me seems more likely), then it probably wouldn't make sense to get one but not the other.

Thing is, in either scenario, while Charizard might be prioritized significantly higher in preparation for the possibility that the whole Trainer can't make it, I don't think they'll start significant work on either Squirt or Ivy unless they are very certain they'll be able to finish both.
I think some people are agreeing with that last bit and extrapolating from it that surely the whole Trainer will be prioritized highly so that they can be certain they'll finish the concept on time, but I don't think that's the right conclusion to draw. I think it's easily possible that Squirt/Ivy being tied to each other would be a detriment to their chances; when it comes to the point in development where characters in their tier are finalized or cut, at that point they'd need to be certain they can finish both, and the extra work required for that could stand against them. This is to say that Charizard and Squirt/Ivy could easily be in different tiers of priority from the start, and there's no guarantee that Charizard being a priority would drag the other two up with him. It's also possible, as I said earlier, that in a cutdown roster it's simply deemed not worth it from the start to include all three Kanto starter lines when other Pokémon fighters might make more sense to prioritize, and Squirt/Ivy consequently have no chance.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I think some people are agreeing with that last bit and extrapolating from it that surely the whole Trainer will be prioritized highly so that they can be certain they'll finish the concept on time, but I don't think that's the right conclusion to draw. I think it's easily possible that Squirt/Ivy being tied to each other would be a detriment to their chances; when it comes to the point in development where characters in their tier are finalized or cut, at that point they'd need to be certain they can finish both, and the extra work required for that could stand against them. This is to say that Charizard and Squirt/Ivy could easily be in different tiers of priority from the start, and there's no guarantee that Charizard being a priority would drag the other two up with him. It's also possible, as I said earlier, that in a cutdown roster it's simply deemed not worth it from the start to include all three Kanto starter lines when other Pokémon fighters might make more sense to prioritize, and Squirt/Ivy consequently have no chance.

It's been an assumption for a while that Charizard is in a different priority tier than Squirtle and Ivysaur, likely because of their circumstances in Smash 4 which were completely different, but if you put POKEMON TRAINER on the original plan (meaning their time and resource use is ALREADY accounted for) and there is no extenuating circumstance like being unable to create transformation characters due to technical limitations, I'm starting to join the opinion of "why would you not just create the entire character at once for testing and balance" because splitting them up and just leaving Charizard unfinished for who knows how long until NEAR THE END OF DEVELOPMENT when the plan was always for POKEMON TRAINER to be in the game just doesn't make any sense to me.

I would assume the decision on Pokemon Trainer in 4 was made very early on because Samus and Zelda are pretty guaranteed to be early on, and it may have come down to a decision on Pokemon Company's end, so of course they're gonna say to keep Charizard, but there are almost certainly fewer people in Squirtle or especially Ivysaur's court on that, especially when they're the only non-Pikachu/Jigglypuff outliers on being either a new Pokemon or having a Mega Evolution in Smash right as Gen 6 is coming out like Greninja, Charizard, Mewtwo, and Lucario.

 

[RileyXY1]

It's been an assumption for a while that Charizard is in a different priority tier than Squirtle and Ivysaur, likely because of their circumstances in Smash 4 which were completely different, but if you put POKEMON TRAINER on the original plan (meaning their time and resource use is ALREADY accounted for) and there is no extenuating circumstance like being unable to create transformation characters due to technical limitations, I'm starting to join the opinion of "why would you not just create the entire character at once for testing and balance" because splitting them up and just leaving Charizard unfinished for who knows how long until NEAR THE END OF DEVELOPMENT when the plan was always for POKEMON TRAINER to be in the game just doesn't make any sense to me.

I would assume the decision on Pokemon Trainer in 4 was made very early on because Samus and Zelda are pretty guaranteed to be early on, and it may have come down to a decision on Pokemon Company's end, so of course they're gonna say to keep Charizard, but there are almost certainly fewer people in Squirtle or especially Ivysaur's court on that, especially when they're the only non-Pikachu/Jigglypuff outliers on being either a new Pokemon or having a Mega Evolution in Smash right as Gen 6 is coming out like Greninja, Charizard, Mewtwo, and Lucario.

And Charizard has always gotten heavy favoritism by Game Freak over the other two Kanto starters. In XY Charizard got two Mega Evolutions while Venusaur and Blastoise got only one. And in Sword and Shield Charizard got to be in the base game, got a Gigantamax form, and was the ace of the game's Champion, Leon, while Venusaur and Blastoise had to wait until the Isle of Armor to get theirs.

 

[Perkilator]

If Charizard went solo again, then I hope he gets reworked so that his moveset works outside being confined to the Pokémon Trainer’s switching mechanic.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

If Charizard went solo again, then I hope he gets reworked so that his moveset works outside being confined to the Pokémon Trainer’s switching mechanic.

Maybe also a tweaked version of the glide from Brawl.

Same with Ridley since both characters don’t have issues flying freely in their home series but it’s kinda the opposite in Smash.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Also with the line of thought of other Pokemon characters missing the boat because of Pokemon Trainer's resource use (which again would already be taken into account if they're on the project plan), there's no way Charizard is missing out since he's Pokemon Company's golden boy, and you'd have a much easier time selling veteran DLC of characters like Lucario or Incineroar than a character like a solo Ivysaur.

 

[SPEN18]

It's been an assumption for a while that Charizard is in a different priority tier than Squirtle and Ivysaur, likely because of their circumstances in Smash 4 which were completely different, but if you put POKEMON TRAINER on the original plan (meaning their time and resource use is ALREADY accounted for) and there is no extenuating circumstance like being unable to create transformation characters due to technical limitations, I'm starting to join the opinion of "why would you not just create the entire character at once for testing and balance" because splitting them up and just leaving Charizard unfinished for who knows how long until NEAR THE END OF DEVELOPMENT when the plan was always for POKEMON TRAINER to be in the game just doesn't make any sense to me.

I would assume the decision on Pokemon Trainer in 4 was made very early on because Samus and Zelda are pretty guaranteed to be early on, and it may have come down to a decision on Pokemon Company's end, so of course they're gonna say to keep Charizard, but there are almost certainly fewer people in Squirtle or especially Ivysaur's court on that, especially when they're the only non-Pikachu/Jigglypuff outliers on being either a new Pokemon or having a Mega Evolution in Smash right as Gen 6 is coming out like Greninja, Charizard, Mewtwo, and Lucario.

But if you put just "Pokémon Trainer" as one character on the project plan, let's say above X,Y,Z others in priority, that is implicitly saying we're going to prioritize Squirtle and Ivysaur specifically over X,Y,Z. Are we ready to put Squirtle, Ivysaur, and the Trainer concept at large as a higher priority than the likes of Lucario, Greninja, Mewtwo, and etc.? That's the kind of question that would have to be answered, if they were to insist on putting "Pokémon Trainer" all together in one priority level. It seems problematic to do that because it avoids the reality that "Pokémon Trainer" is really three individual fighters worth of work, and we already know Charizard can switch to solo status mid-development if necessary.

Thing is, in my opinion, in most roster scenarios that try to include Pokemon Trainer but have to make other cuts to compensate, most of the time replacing Squirtle and Ivysaur with 1-2 other characters that just missed the cut tends to look better. Which makes me feel like "Pokémon Trainer," considered as one singular character, would probably not be a super-high priority because of how many slots that soaks up at a time when those are at an absolute premium.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

But if you put just "Pokémon Trainer" as one character on the project plan, let's say above X,Y,Z others in priority, that is implicitly saying we're going to prioritize Squirtle and Ivysaur specifically over X,Y,Z. Are we ready to put Squirtle, Ivysaur, and the Trainer concept at large as a higher priority than the likes of Lucario, Greninja, Mewtwo, and etc.? That's the kind of question that would have to be answered, if they were to insist on putting "Pokémon Trainer" all together in one priority level. It seems problematic to do that because it avoids the reality that "Pokémon Trainer" is really three individual fighters worth of work, and we already know Charizard can switch to solo status mid-development if necessary.

Thing is, in my opinion, in most roster scenarios that try to include Pokemon Trainer but have to make other cuts to compensate, most of the time replacing Squirtle and Ivysaur with 1-2 other characters that just missed the cut tends to look better. Which makes me feel like "Pokémon Trainer," considered as one singular character, would probably not be a super-high priority because of how many slots that soaks up at a time when those are at an absolute premium.

Well first off, Pokemon Trainer already beat out Mewtwo once in Brawl, so I could easily see that; as I've said, Charizard is Pokemon Company's golden boy. Secondly, like I said, if Pokemon Trainer is on the plan from the start, the team will already know the time and resources it would take to make that character since they've done it twice already. Third, as I said previously, Charizard probably didn't just change mid-development (at least not in a way that means "build one third of Pokemon Trainer and wait to see how the rest of the roster looks"), it would've been a shift very early on after finding out transformations aren't possible through Samus or Zelda, possibly before work on Charizard even started.

Lastly, I have no idea how speculative rosters that cut two thirds of Pokemon Trainer to increase the actual slot number of a roster means that Trainer would suddenly be lower priority. As you said, that's your opinion, but it doesn't make it a point against Pokemon Trainer or their priority.

 

[Dee Dude]

I’m starting to think people overestimate Mewtwo’s importance as far as Smash goes, he’s a very popular and prominent Pokémon in the series yes but Sakurai just doesn’t seem to treat him as a high priority the way we do when it comes the base roster of the next Smash game,

He was snubbed out of Brawl and Lucario got accused of replacing him, didn’t make it to 4 yet Charizard (who was part of PT) did and this time, Greninja was the accused replacer.

Mewtwo probably wouldn’t even be DLC if not for his fan outcry, I think he’ll clearly stay for 6 but I feel there’s a reason we haven’t been noticing in regards to his chances.

 

[DKing]

I don't want to spoil but I heard that from some rumors on 4chan that the game will come in 2026.

 

[fogbadge]

I don't want to spoil but I heard that from some rumors on 4chan that the game will come in 2026.

that’s been covered. twice

 

[CannonStreak]

I’m starting to think people overestimate Mewtwo’s importance as far as Smash goes, he’s a very popular and prominent Pokémon in the series yes but Sakurai just doesn’t seem to treat him as a high priority the way we do when it comes the base roster of the next Smash game,

He was snubbed out of Brawl and Lucario got accused of replacing him, didn’t make it to 4 yet Charizard (who was part of PT) did and this time, Greninja was the accused replacer.

Mewtwo probably wouldn’t even be DLC if not for his fan outcry, I think he’ll clearly stay for 6 but I feel there’s a reason we haven’t been noticing in regards to his chances.

Um, yeah, I am sure Sakurai had his reasons for removing Mewtwo in Brawl, and he seemed to have trouble porting Mewtwo’s memory from Melee and the GameCube to be used in Smash 4.

Even then, that was the past, and considering Mewtwo’s popularity and other things, I think chances are Mewtwo is less likely to be cut in future games.

 

[DKing]

that’s been covered. twice

Ok that's cool to know.

 

[dream1ng]

I don't want to spoil but I heard that from some rumors on 4chan that the game will come in 2026.

Who is this 4chan guy? Can we trust him?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Unfortunately, I have to disappoint you, as they'd be Gen 4 ( made to match the primarily Gen 4 oriented PS2.) Also falling in line with the PS2 types, the Pokemon are Pachirisu, Glaceon and Garchomp.

idk sounds fine to me

Who is this 4chan guy? Can we trust him?

It's the hacker known as 4chan. He used his 1337 h4x0r skills to get the totes legit Smash 6 roster.

 

[SPEN18]

Well first off, Pokemon Trainer already beat out Mewtwo once in Brawl, so I could easily see that;

I’m starting to think people overestimate Mewtwo’s importance as far as Smash goes, he’s a very popular and prominent Pokémon in the series yes but Sakurai just doesn’t seem to treat him as a high priority the way we do when it comes the base roster of the next Smash game,

Yeah Mewtwo's history has always been getting valued less by Sakurai/devs than by fans. We'll see if that changes based on the fan demand.
Wrt TheFirstPoppyBro I mean Mewtwo was only one out of a list, hardly changes my point if you think Mewtwo will be low priority.

Third, as I said previously, Charizard probably didn't just change mid-development (at least not in a way that means "build one third of Pokemon Trainer and wait to see how the rest of the roster looks"), it would've been a shift very early on after finding out transformations aren't possible through Samus or Zelda, possibly before work on Charizard even started.

It should be noted that ZSS, Sheik, and Charizard were all revealed in the same Direct for Smash 4. Which might be an indicator that the splits were finalized around the same time, but of course it's unknown. As is the amount of work done (if any) on Squirt/Ivy before the splits.
And just to be clear, I wouldn't describe it as a "wait and see" approach as much as I would say it just flat-out makes more sense to allow for Charizard to be prioritized higher than the rest of Trainer. There's no reason to force them all to be the same priority.

Lastly, I have no idea how speculative rosters that cut two thirds of Pokemon Trainer to increase the actual slot number of a roster means that Trainer would suddenly be lower priority. As you said, that's your opinion, but it doesn't make it a point against Pokemon Trainer or their priority.

The point I'm trying to illustrate there is that Squirtle and Ivysaur on their own probably aren't high-priority characters, and it makes a lot of sense IMO to ensure that some of the other Pokémon vets get in for sure before prioritizing the rest of the Kanto starters. Given this and that we're obviously working in a scenario where Squirt/Ivy aren't simply ruled out from the very start, it just makes a lot of sense to stay flexible.
If we're in any scenario where getting Charizard + X and/or Y is considered more desirable than having all of Trainer but cutting X and Y, and there is any reasonable chance that including Squirt/Ivy would prevent X/Y from happening, it just makes a ton of sense to build Charizard and X/Y, then see if Squirt/Ivy can be fit in later, i.e. prioritize Charizard and X/Y other stuff over Squirt/Ivy.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I don't want to spoil but I heard that from some rumors on 4chan that the game will come in 2026.

The leak is likely fake but 2026 isn't unlikely.

 

[Noipoi]

At the very very least, I think a new Smash will be announced in 2026. Maybe it'll be teased but it won't come out until 2027.

That's at the very least, though. I think a new Smash is coming next year straight up.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

At the very very least, I think a new Smash will be announced in 2026. Maybe it'll be teased but it won't come out until 2027.

That's at the very least, though. I think a new Smash is coming next year straight up.

I think it coooould be teased/announced this year? It depends on how they wanna do marketing, because the Wii U came out in November 2012 and then they announced Smash 4 at E3 2013, then marketing went on until it released in September 2014.

So like if we're doing the Dojo way for veterans and just marketing newcomers, I could see it taking longer than Ultimate especially if there's a more typical number of newcomers this time around? So I could see it announced this year just because of that. I wouldn't expect it until later in the year though.

watch me be wrong and the Switch 2 Direct or like the Summer Direct we usually have in June has something for it lol

 

[Dee Dude]

At the very very least, I think a new Smash will be announced in 2026. Maybe it'll be teased but it won't come out until 2027.

That's at the very least, though. I think a new Smash is coming next year straight up.

My prediction: It’ll get announced in the April Switch 2 Direct with a teaser and hinting the first newcomer ala

It won’t be released until Summer or Holiday of 2026 but we’ll see a full trailer at the earliest of that year, February to March-ish.

2027 is too far away and Nintendo will need something besides Mario Kart 9 to boost sales for their newest system, I obviously don’t expect it to be a launch title as that hasn’t been the case since Melee but Smash 6 should come sooner then expected.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

At the very very least, I think a new Smash will be announced in 2026. Maybe it'll be teased but it won't come out until 2027.

That's at the very least, though. I think a new Smash is coming next year straight up.

It will be the longest gap between Smash games at 8 to 9 years. It doesn't feel that long because of the DLC.

 

[Dukefire]

At the very very least, I think a new Smash will be announced in 2026. Maybe it'll be teased but it won't come out until 2027.

That's at the very least, though. I think a new Smash is coming next year straight up.

As Smash Bros Ultimate's main theme say anything. The fighting never dies as it continues for people to find their light while it calling to past unknown.....

For now, we have to keep embers steady until offical fuel arrives.

Also, do you believe the current Smash Bros rumor? It is a BIG REACH for speculation.....

 

[cashregister9]

Also, do you believe the current Smash Bros rumor? It is a BIG REACH for speculation.....

This leak has now been posted at least 4 separate times.

we really are back

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

How many times are we going to get the same damn 4chan fake leak from the 19th posted goddamn.

There's been like at least two more fakes from 4chan since and idiot news sites aren't covering those. .....at least not yet. But they might.

 

[Dee Dude]

Speaking of rumors, how likely do you guys think we’ll get another Grinch Leak?