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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Swamp Sensei

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I'd understand that Camelot excuse if they were the only ones who used Waluigi.

Waluigi is in a variety of games that don't have Camelot involved whatsoever. It's a silly notion.

That said, no one actually argued this right? Wasn't this a silly hypothetical of something silly someone COULD say?
 

Captain Shwampy

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I'd understand that Camelot excuse if they were the only ones who used Waluigi.

Waluigi is in a variety of games that don't have Camelot involved whatsoever. It's a silly notion.

That said, no one actually argued this right? Wasn't this a silly hypothetical of something silly someone COULD say?
Its wasn't about Smash, it was about getting his own spin off/appearing in a mainline mario.
Which Nintendo in-house studios have no interest cause he's not an in-house creation.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Its wasn't about Smash, it was about getting his own spin off/appearing in a mainline mario.
Which Nintendo in-house studios have no interest cause he's not an in-house creation.
I thought it was brought up before that conversation started.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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The Wario and Waluigi combos are also quite specific to some Sports games(and Olympics... which is Sports in practice). It's not really a thing for Mario Kart or Mario Party. That's pretty much the thing too; they aren't partners in crimes by default. It entirely depends if it's sports-related or not that they go that route. Mario Party doesn't much acknowledge any of this even during Story Modes. It's minorly noted with some Team names, at least.

Hell, DDR doesn't even have him related to Wario in the plot. At all. Which is saying something. He's also not combo'd with Wario in all the Tennis games either. But the overall point is... yes, he's teamed up with Wario, but it's only in certain contexts. Not just simply spin-offs(as they only team up in one Mario Kart game. Likewise, while Waluigi was originally envisioned as Wario's brothers, later materials reveal they're just sports partners. They're not related, nor are they actually friends(Waluigi doesn't really appear to have any).
As far as I know, anytime a game pairs characters together, these two are one of those pairs. To be fair, pairing systems are kinda rare in the spin-offs, especially factoring in Kart and Party. However, I don't think that's enough to say that they aren't related at all, just that the relationship isn't explored most of the time because the characters only appear in spin-offs that don't care to explore anyone's relationship with anyone.

Also considering his design is so similar to Wario that retconning their relationship to him being a random, unaffiliated guy who just so happens to look like Wario, but otherwise has nothing to do with him. I could definitely see him only getting along with Wario during team games and adopting an "every man for himself" mindset in everything else though.

But even then, his "cheating" is kept to sports too. It's not really the normal thing in Mario Party(though a manga adaption does go with that). So party games he's more likely to play fair. Besides that, the types of mini-games that WarioWare does is completely different from Mario Party.
To be fair, he doesn't ever actually cheat in the sports gameplay, and it kinda makes sense to nix the idea if you aren't ever going to follow through with it (because it would break the game if they did).

I'd also say it's another reason why he should be in literally any game that has room to flesh him out. What little characterization he has beyond "very kooky, attention hungry, and kind of a loser" entirely depends on the game's vibe and mechanics.
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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Even if Nintendo had some sort of aversion towards using Waluigi in "important" games (which I don't think they do), Smash is never 100% on brand with everything. See K. Rool: they've been distancing him from the DK series, yet Smash is not only allowed to use him, but also to give him a significant redesign that has never appeared in an actual DK game.
But that happens fairly often: Villager still uses his old proportions, "Young" Link was never really a thing before he was added to Melee, Ridley also got an original design...
If they want Waluigi, they can add Waluigi. What the original Mario series does with him doesn't really matter.

To me it makes sense why he's never been a priority. There's just not much that Waluigi and only Waluigi can do, and he can't be a clone of Wario/Luigi either due to his proportions.
 
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KneeOfJustice99

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Even if Nintendo had some sort of aversion towards using Waluigi in "important" games (which I don't think they do), Smash is never 100% on brand with everything. See K. Rool: they've been distancing him from the DK series, yet Smash is not only allowed to use him, but also to give him a significant redesign that has never appeared in an actual DK game.
But that happens fairly often: Villager still uses his old proportions, "Young" Link was never really a thing before he was added to Melee, Ridley also got an original design...
If they want Waluigi, they can add Waluigi. What the original Mario series does with him doesn't really matter.

To me it makes sense why he's never been a priority. There's just not much that Waluigi and only Waluigi can do.
the real answer to this is to give wario banjo's f-smash and have him use waluigi as a disjointed weapon
 

Diddy Kong

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I wouldn't go with the slow runner thing personally. I mean, he has freaking long legs. He may not end up as the fastest Smasher out there, but with those legs, he has to have some speed.
Know who got long legs too?

Ganondorf. :ultganondorf:

Not exactly the best argument. Especially since he got into Melee due to having a similar body type to Captain Falcon, who also has long legs and is actually fast.

Then there's Mario, Diddy Kong and Pikachu with short legs, and they're fast.

Waluigi should probably not be much faster than either Wario or Luigi I feel.
 

dream1ng

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There's just not much that Waluigi and only Waluigi can do, and he can't be a clone of Wario/Luigi either due to his proportions.
It doesn't matter if only Waluigi can do it so long as Waluigi can do it. If he's an original character, he'll be the only one doing it on the roster.

Bowser Jr wasn't the only one who could ride around in the clown car to the extent they added the seven Koopalings as alts. They could've given him the paintbrush and Shadow Mario as more than his FS if they wanted something more unique, especially pre-Inkling. Hell, even Bowser could have his moveset, he'd just be bigger. But it's still very unique because no one else has that vehicle motif.

They added Palutena and literally every single one of her special moves, including all the customs, is something Pit does in Uprising, while she does almost none of them herself. But, for Smash 4, it was a unique gimmick (well, excluding the Miis).

Waluigi has plenty to work with that is untouched by the other fighters in his series. If we disregarded moveset potential because another Mario character could theoretically do that thing, that would just prohibit that thing from actually ever being used. But if no one is doing it... it's fine.
 

DarthEnderX

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Waluigi's biggest hurdle will probably always be, until proven otherwise, that he was made by Camelot rather than Nintendo themselves.
I don't see how that's an issue. I mean, Diddy and KRool were made by Rare.

No one said that. Nintendo owns the characters, but just because you own a character doesn't mean you have absolute free reign on them.
I...think that's literally what it means to own something.

Waluigi will be in the next game. He's the most recognizable Nintendo character who hasn't been added yet
Toad.

I'd be super down for that.

...going into the next generation, I really hope Nintendo doesn't keep doing the model of "release incredibly bare-bones games at launch and then drip-feed additional content through updates that people ignore, before looking shocked at why people aren't buying games at launch".
I much prefer the MK8 model of:
Release game
5 years later, release update that doubles the size of the game.
 

KingofPhantoms

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...Okay, I didn't expect my comment about Waluigi being made by Camelot being a possible reason why Waluigi hasn't made a major appearance outside of spin-offs or a playable role in Smash (which for the record, is something I've seen expressed many times over the years. It's absolutely not something new, but it's also not something I wholly agree with) to kickstart this long of a discussion.

With that said, looking back on my last post here, I do think I could have worded it better or elaborated on the matter better. I rewrote that post several times, saved at least one or two separate drafts of it before writing the final version, and I think the end result ended up not actually accurately conveying my thoughts on the argument.

IIRC, the general sentiment of the argument was that either Nintendo had some (either a legal or outright arbitrary) reason for not wanting him to appear outside of spin-offs or otherwise deciding against. I don't fully agree with nor disagree with this argument, and I don';t think it's at least necessarily why he hasn't gotten into Smash yet when he's clearly still allowed to be an Assist Trophy. But I do think it's rather strange (and frankly a bit of a sad waste of potential) that after so much time and so much fan support, the man in purple still has yet to appear outside of spin-off games or get a game to his own name like the Mario brothers and Wario himself, and I'll find it stranger still if he doesn't make an appearance outside of spin-offs in more recent years.

In hindsight, writing that Waluigi's biggest hurdle was him being created by Camelot until it was outright proven otherwise was about the worst possible way I could've made that argument. I honestly have no idea if it's that or just a general lack of interest or belief in moveset potential on Sakurai's part. And I'm not trying to start some new bizarre argument as to why he can't or shouldn't be in Smash, either. This is far from the first time I've heard of the argument, even as just speculation, and the dude's also been among my more wanted characters for years! Even more so in light of more of my most wanted characters like K. Rool and Isabelle joining the battle as well. I still think it's a shame he missed out on both 4 and Ultimate and would really like to see him finally make the cut in the next game.

With that said, while I'm starting to think that the idea of this being a roadblock for Waluigi is sillier and more improbable the deeper I think about it (which I'll openly admit is only because of the posts and arguments against it that I've read from a number of you here today lmao), I do still think it may be a potential reason why he hasn't gotten his own game or appeared outside of spin-offs yet. Emphasis on "potential" there, but more bizarre legal and rights issues have and still do happen. Regardless, I'm sorry if making the argument at all in the first place offended or frustrated anyone.
 
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Scrimblo Bimblo

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It doesn't matter if only Waluigi can do it so long as Waluigi can do it. If he's an original character, he'll be the only one doing it on the roster.

Bowser Jr wasn't the only one who could ride around in the clown car to the extent they added the seven Koopalings as alts. They could've given him the paintbrush and Shadow Mario as more than his FS if they wanted something more unique, especially pre-Inkling. Hell, even Bowser could have his moveset, he'd just be bigger. But it's still very unique because no one else has that vehicle motif.

They added Palutena and literally every single one of her special moves, including all the customs, is something Pit does in Uprising, while she does almost none of them herself. But, for Smash 4, it was a unique gimmick (well, excluding the Miis).

Waluigi has plenty to work with that is untouched by the other fighters in his series. If we disregarded moveset potential because another Mario character could theoretically do that thing, that would just prohibit that thing from actually ever being used. But if no one is doing it... it's fine.
Yes. That's why I used the past tense "he's never been a priority" as in, up until now. Bowser Jr. and many other characters just had more stuff to work with so they got in first.
But that's the core problem. Since Waluigi only appears in spin-offs where all the characters mostly share the same abilities, there's always going to be some Bowser Jr. who immediately offers a more unique or more striking skillset. And this isn't just limited to Mario characters, since Smash is a large crossover.

Palutena may not have used her abilities directly before Smash, but she had a whole game to pull unique abilities from, and it made sense to give them to her due to lore reasons.
Waluigi doesn't really have that, unless you make him swing a tennis racket around, which is not a very exciting idea.

I feel like the best way to make him interesting is by weaponizing some of his weirder animations, like the air swim or the pirouette. But even that doesn't sound entirely convincing to me, since, again, Smash can actually look outside of the Mario series and there's so many characters that are just able to slot in more naturally.
I can only see them doing something like that if they feel like Waluigi is so incredibly popular to outprioritize a ton of characters with actual history to pull a unique moveset out of.
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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With that said, while I'm starting to think that the idea of this being a roadblock for Waluigi is sillier and more improbable the deeper I think about it (which I'll openly admit is only because of the posts and arguments against it that I've read from a number of you here today lmao), I do still think it may be a potential reason why he hasn't gotten his own game or appeared outside of spin-offs yet. Emphasis on "potential" there, but more bizarre legal and rights issues have and still do happen. Regardless, I'm sorry if making the argument at all in the first place offended or frustrated anyone.
I do think a lot of it boils down to Waluigi just not being an original Nintendo creation, in terms of getting his own game anyway. Definitely not a legal or rights issue, but sort of just a side character that's not really integral to the series per se, like he was created to fill the void of Wario not having a tennis partner. Iconic and recognizable still, obviously, but he's one of the only characters on spin-off game rosters and the like to have originated from those titles rather than the main series, unless you count things like Pink Gold Peach (which is a version of Peach technically, so I don't personally lol). The other example is Toadette who first appeared in a similar position as Toad's partner in Double Dash, but obviously that was made by Nintendo themselves, so her appearing in things like Odyssey and Mario Maker 2 may honestly lend credence to this idea lol

I do think it's theoretically possible they could just make something up for Waluigi to do in a solo game, like how they made Wario suddenly start making video games in his off time as a treasure hunter, but I'd assume nobody's had a real good idea where to take him, if they've considered it at all.

And I may not especially care about Waluigi in Smash, but I do think he's basically an inevitability of sorts, though when that pin will drop all depends on Sakurai and Nintendo, particularly Sakurai having a flash of inspiration for him. I think normals would be easy enough considering you can use his strange physiology and personality to make some pretty good and expressive normals, but specials may be a bit tougher with his spin-off only attendance.
 

Captain Shwampy

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I...think that's literally what it means to own something.
Sega owns Lalah the ghost girl from Night of the Werehog, however she was made by the animators at Marza who are under TMS animation a studio Sega Sammy owns. In order to use her you would have to through the process of contacting TMS, getting a hold of Marza staff, getting permission to use her, having them supervise her expression, designs, etc than Sega will finally sign off on allowing you use her character in a game, comic, etc.

Same rules applies to Waluigi, this is a normal procedure a majority of Japanese companies do. They do it as a sign of respect to the creator and to keep good terms with them otherwise it will look bad if they start burning bridges.
 

Royaru

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The latest rumors suggest that the Switch successor's joy-cons could be used as a mouse. And that could be incredibly interesting for IPs like Kid Icarus, Star Fox, and Sin and Punishment. Especially in the case of Kid Icarus and Sakurai's project that has been in development since 2022.

I don't rule out Smash, but knowing how hard Sakurai works, at this point I don't rule out him being involved in a new Kid Icarus for 2025, while supervising and working on the new Smash for 2026-2027.
 

fogbadge

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...going into the next generation, I really hope Nintendo doesn't keep doing the model of "release incredibly bare-bones games at launch and then drip-feed additional content through updates that people ignore, before looking shocked at why people aren't buying games at launch".
I think you just described splatoon 4
 

DarthEnderX

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Sega owns Lalah the ghost girl from Night of the Werehog, however she was made by the animators at Marza who are under TMS animation a studio Sega Sammy owns. In order to use her you would have to through the process of contacting TMS, getting a hold of Marza staff, getting permission to use her, having them supervise her expression, designs, etc than Sega will finally sign off on allowing you use her character in a game, comic, etc.
If you have to get someone else's permission to use something, you don't actually own that thing. You have partial ownership at best.
 

NonSpecificGuy

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Its wasn't about Smash, it was about getting his own spin off/appearing in a mainline mario.
Which Nintendo in-house studios have no interest cause he's not an in-house creation.
Waluigi was created 25 Years ago. The people working on Nintendo games now likely weren’t even around when Waluigi was created and I doubt they give a damn that he wasn’t an in-house creation when he’s been in the zeitgeist of Mario games for so long now.
 

KneeOfJustice99

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The latest rumors suggest that the Switch successor's joy-cons could be used as a mouse. And that could be incredibly interesting for IPs like Kid Icarus, Star Fox, and Sin and Punishment. Especially in the case of Kid Icarus and Sakurai's project that has been in development since 2022.

I don't rule out Smash, but knowing how hard Sakurai works, at this point I don't rule out him being involved in a new Kid Icarus for 2025, while supervising and working on the new Smash for 2026-2027.
I've heard some stuff about this actually, some kind of unknown "C" button that could be anything from "C"ursor to "C"ast to Super "C", CONTRA 6 IS BUILT IN TO THE SWITCH 2 MIYAMOTO IS MY DAD

A cursor-based rail shooter of some kind could actually be pretty interesting, but I think a point I'd consider with this is how that'd end up being done, because that'll significantly influence the experience of something like that. If it'd be handled with accelerometers or something of the sort, I really don't like the idea of having to constantly recalibrate my Joy-Con-2's every time the Switch 2's dock is moved even slightly. Then again, the Joy-Con's motion controls were admittedly not entirely awful as is, so there might be something in that.

...I guess there's also a question of form factor. If you'd have to continually point the top of the Joy-Con at the screen as though holding a remote, it's a slightly awkward position when trying to feel like you're piloting a spaceship. You also wouldn't really want to have to have both Joy-Cons in front of you like flight controls - I think that'd be better-suited for a Pilotwings game, actually, and I think there'd be a lot of appeal in solo Joy-Con play to allow for multiplayer. But... when you think of it more like holding a gun or a bow, it might make more sense.

Idk. Obviously I'm just clutching at straws like everyone else.
 

pitchfulprocessing

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If you have to get someone else's permission to use something, you don't actually own that thing. You have partial ownership at best.
This is how it works in general, it's something the Capcom devs frequently talk about. If the team developing Marvel VS Capcom wants to use Dante, they have to actively get permission from the Devil May Cry team, both for legal reasons and simply for good-will and as a systemic thing, and the team in question can easily just say no and that's that. Especially massive companies like Nintendo and Capcom aren't monoliths, they have tons of moving parts made up of individual people and those teams won't always have a lot of overlap. Legally that gets even more complicated when other companies are involved, and it ends up not as simple as "X owns them so they can use them whenever". Nintendo owns Vaati but there's probably a reason you don't tend to see him again because he's from a Capcom game.
 

Perkilator

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Quoting from the Unpopular Smash Opinions thread:
This post I saw on BlueSky further emphasizes something I’ve always kind of insisted: that SSBU’s DLC run was a very important litmus test for which parts of the Smash fanbase actually plays video games other than Smash.
 

KneeOfJustice99

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This is how it works in general, it's something the Capcom devs frequently talk about. If the team developing Marvel VS Capcom wants to use Dante, they have to actively get permission from the Devil May Cry team, both for legal reasons and simply for good-will and as a systemic thing, and the team in question can easily just say no and that's that. Especially massive companies like Nintendo and Capcom aren't monoliths, they have tons of moving parts made up of individual people and those teams won't always have a lot of overlap. Legally that gets even more complicated when other companies are involved, and it ends up not as simple as "X owns them so they can use them whenever". Nintendo owns Vaati but there's probably a reason you don't tend to see him again because he's from a Capcom game.
Interesting you specifically mention Capcom, because the example of this that sprang to my mind was how Monster Hunter - a character considered for UMVC3 - was canned, apparently due to the producer not allowing them to use an ordinary Monster Hunter and suggesting that using one of the series' actual monsters would be more fitting and characterful. (Obviously the Hunter was added as DLC to Infinite later, but still.)
 

BuckleyTim

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Quoting from the Unpopular Smash Opinions thread:

I feel like Terry annoyance is overstated, though then again what I remember from the period was Sans Undertale drowning out Terry's announcement and then smash fans, followed by smash fans getting far more annoyed by characters they did in fact know (byleth, pyra and mythra, etc.)
 

Guynamednelson

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The entirety of Smash is a litmus test for which parts of the Smash fanbase actually plays video games.
Judging by how some people wince at the idea of Smash doing things other games do all the time, I think that's a big fat NO.

Even the ones that say Smash fans need to play more games are guilty of that.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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As far as I know, anytime a game pairs characters together, these two are one of those pairs. To be fair, pairing systems are kinda rare in the spin-offs, especially factoring in Kart and Party. However, I don't think that's enough to say that they aren't related at all, just that the relationship isn't explored most of the time because the characters only appear in spin-offs that don't care to explore anyone's relationship with anyone.

Also considering his design is so similar to Wario that retconning their relationship to him being a random, unaffiliated guy who just so happens to look like Wario, but otherwise has nothing to do with him. I could definitely see him only getting along with Wario during team games and adopting an "every man for himself" mindset in everything else though.
It's not a retcon. Their entire relationship is "they're just a guy who plays together in sports and both enjoy being underhanded." That's actually what happens.

Party has pairings actually for a small chunk of games, and even then, they're just team names. Wario and Waluigi are just one of many and it's not specialized or emphasized that it matters. Double Dash is their only notable one that isn't just regular Sports(naturally Soccer doesn't bother with this, but that's cause they're both Captains. Of course they can't team up in the gameplay itself).

This is what I meant by people overstating their partnership too. It's a small thing meant for the Sports games that is given little attention outside of it(Party slightly acknowledges it, but it's not an important thing to them. Everybody can team up anyway. Kart is still a Sport, as is Olympics, so they don't count as standing out either). That's also why there is no retcon. Waluigi was originally envisioned as Wario's brother, but that was a thought that was never actually brought to fruition. I might've typed that poorly in the earlier post, though, so apologies for that.

To be fair, he doesn't ever actually cheat in the sports gameplay, and it kinda makes sense to nix the idea if you aren't ever going to follow through with it (because it would break the game if they did).
It's just a fun cutscene thing anyway. No reason to get rid of it. It's about showing his personality. And as said, it would break the game if it did. The thing is, it shouldn't matter anyway if these are cutscene things made to flesh out a character or not. Applying everything to gameplay is bad design. You can have both separated fine without any issues.

I'd also say it's another reason why he should be in literally any game that has room to flesh him out. What little characterization he has beyond "very kooky, attention hungry, and kind of a loser" entirely depends on the game's vibe and mechanics.
And a suave person, who doesn't mind underhanded tactics, has a crush on Daisy, isn't adverse to teaming up with anyone(in competitive sports only). He also represents Mischief in Mario Party 3, so even then they have a clear defining point for who he is. He has more than is being given credit for. It's just that this is Mario, where they aren't going to have big stories often outside of the RPG's(usually in those. Paper Mario had two games with some far lesser stories than the rest of it). There's nowhere to properly flesh him out(as he was simply created for Sports stuff, and isn't really privy to other genres much beyond some fun competition very often). DDR was as close to a unique genre as he ever got, and it actually fit his personality well within the story. He's not greedy either, which is a fairly key theme to WarioWare(everybody is in it for the money to begin with. That's the purpose behind it). So throwing him in just cause it has some kind of competition doesn't make much sense on it alone. If he was first introduced in Mario Party, that'd be one thing. He'd be built more around the idea of various mini-games. But he wasn't.

Overall, he's kept to an area that emphasizes his characterization. That makes sense. He has enough personality that he's not some boring or blank slate character. He's more defined than some wish they were. You know who he is. He doesn't need to appear in Wario's games to be already quite fun and interesting. It's why he's already a very popular character. He's already iconic with what he has. Besides that, when he got a game where he was the starter villain and he's not actually involved with Wario specifically? ...That says a lot. He doesn't revolve around Wario only. It also shows quite well that their "teaming up' is context-dependent. Which is the point I'm making; that their relationship is very specific and isn't "everywhere" either. So why isn't Waluigi involved with Wario more in the Wario games(or at all present in the games beyond a mention)? Cause he doesn't only revolve around Wario and people are ultimately putting them more together than they really are to justify it.

I'm all for fleshing him out, but I'm not going to pretend he's a missing thing in WarioWare either. They can focus on Waluigi as a character and not involve Wario just fine to justify it too. They already did in the DDR game, after all. Yes, he was created to be partially involved with Wario(in Sports, generally). No, it's not his only defining aspect either.
 

Ivander

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The latest rumors suggest that the Switch successor's joy-cons could be used as a mouse. And that could be incredibly interesting for IPs like Kid Icarus, Star Fox, and Sin and Punishment. Especially in the case of Kid Icarus and Sakurai's project that has been in development since 2022.
1736266171061.png

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Kinda interested in the concept though. If the precision is anything close to a mouse, besides heavily benefiting FPS/3PS games, we could also see a rise in Top-Down mouse heavy games like RTS games and whatnot.
 

Guynamednelson

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Well Nintendo has Pikmin for that, but as for third-parties I can probably see them being interested in RTS's that aren't Age of Empires II again if console controls aren't a problem anymore for traditional ones.

Just gotta figure out how they'd handle control groups.
 

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Messages
8,422
View attachment 397522
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Kinda interested in the concept though. If the precision is anything close to a mouse, besides heavily benefiting FPS/3PS games, we could also see a rise in Top-Down mouse heavy games like RTS games and whatnot.
You joke, but imagine if this is how we get those games on NSO...
 

Perkilator

Smash Legend
Writing Team
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11,470
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The perpetual trash fire known as Planet Earth(tm)
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SW-3204-0809-5605
View attachment 397522
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Kinda interested in the concept though. If the precision is anything close to a mouse, besides heavily benefiting FPS/3PS games, we could also see a rise in Top-Down mouse heavy games like RTS games and whatnot.
Maybe the mouse function could also benefit ports of Wii games that emphasize motion controls. Maybe some Switch 2 games could also utilize motion controls with the mouse function?
 
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