Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Idon]

Speaking of potential new Sega characters how likely do you think Akira is now that Virtua Fighter is getting a newish game, and if he were to be playable do you think he would retain his VF1 design?View attachment 396655

Not really no.

It would be pretty unbelievable to just have an intentionally ****ty low poly model when quite literally every other 3rd party character, including ones older and more "historic" than Virtua Fighter getting fully realized modern interpretations.

 

[Speed Weed]

Promise me you'll include Illbleed and I'll let you add everything and the kitchen sink.

Oh I am absolutely including Illbleed. The children need to know of Zodick the Hellhog

 

[AlRex]

Not really no.

It would be pretty unbelievable to just have an intentionally ****ty low poly model when quite literally every other 3rd party character, including ones older and more "historic" than Virtua Fighter getting fully realized modern interpretations.

I would like if characters got low poly model costumes + sprite color costumes, though. Partially want Lara Croft and Crash Bandicoot in for that reason, aside from their merits in general.

 

[NintenRob]

The stage list got snapped. Now our only stages are Flat Zone, Flat Zone 2 (yeah they got separated for some reason), Icicle Mountain, Jungle Hijinxs, Miiverse, Mushroom Kingdom (Melee), Mute City, Orbital Gate Assault, Pac-Maze, PictoChat, Planet Zebes, Poké Floats, Pyrosphere, Rainbow Road, Rumble Falls, Sector Z, and Woolly World.

...

Ya know, I was doing a bit, but the result is oddly reasonable. Like, it's not good, but it's somehow not terrible either.

I mean, it completely lacks Zelda and Kirby stages. Feels kinda terrible to me lol

 

[BritishGuy54]

Here's my prediction list for the next Smash game.
View attachment 396644

15 Nintendo characters and 15 third party characters. And 3 of the picks are echo fighters

A Mio echo of Noah just doesn’t work. Different physique, different weapon, even. Yes, Mio can be a swordfighter class in XC3, but in execution here, she’s just going to be a less interesting Noah.

 

[NintenRob]

I actually wouldn't mind Noah and Mio and echoes or Alts of each other. Obviously you'd have to adjust heights, but I like the idea of the Xenoblade 3 moveset that pulls from the different classes in the game, almost like Byleth.

Standards uses the sword
Aerials uses the rings
And then each special could be one of the main party classes.

 

[Perkilator]

I actually wouldn't mind Noah and Mio and echoes or Alts of each other. Obviously you'd have to adjust heights, but I like the idea of the Xenoblade 3 moveset that pulls from the different classes in the game, almost like Byleth.

Standards uses the sword
Aerials uses the rings
And then each special could be one of the main party classes.

I think it would be more worth it to have Noah’s moveset utilizing the Swordfighter, Heavy Guard and Medic Gunner classes, while Mio’s moveset utilizes the Zephyr, Ogre and Tactician classes.

 

[Speed Weed]

I can understand Power Stone due to both games being on the Dreamcast before they came to the PSP and then Capcom Fighting Collection 2, but why Frogger? The only games that came to Sega consoles were Frogger for the Mega Drive and one Frogger title for the Dreamcast.

Otherwise, I don't really see any characters being honorary Sega characters, although a shout-out to Rick Taylor from Splatterhouse for Splatterhouse 2 and 3 being only on the Genesis/Mega Drive. Now put them on the Sega Genesis NSO, Namco.

SEGA distributed the original arcade Frogger in some regions

As for "honorary" SEGA characters, the most obvious one is probably Hatsune Miku - no, she's not actually a SEGA character. From there, I think Kenshiro would also be a good candidate considering FotNS is SEGA-associated enough to show up in their official reports (between the mobile game, the Sammy pachinko joints, Lost Paradise, the Master System game.....) And if we're including manga/anime stuff in this, might as well go ahead and throw in any of the major TMS properties since that company is quite literally owned by SEGA - that would include Lupin III, Detective Conan, and the like. Getting back to games, Cotton might also count since SEGA co-published her original arcade game and she kept showing up on SEGA consoles since then. People have already mentioned plenty of third-parties associated with SEGA consoles in the West, so I'll balance things out by giving the Japanese perspective on that matter, which would probably include stuff like Game Arts games (Lunar, Grandia, etc), Battle Mania/Trouble Shooter (which quite literally showed up in Segagaga despite not even being SEGA-owned) and some others.

 

[NintenRob]

I think it would be more worth it to have Noah’s moveset utilizing the Swordfighter, Heavy Guard and Medic Gunner classes, while Mio’s moveset utilizes the Zephyr, Ogre and Tactician classes.

Sure, but I don't exactly see Xenoblade 3 getting two fully unique fighters

 

[Gengar84]

I think it would be more worth it to have Noah’s moveset utilizing the Swordfighter, Heavy Guard and Medic Gunner classes, while Mio’s moveset utilizes the Zephyr, Ogre and Tactician classes.

Yeah, that could work. If Noah used just the Swordfighter class alone, I don’t think he’d really offer too much in terms of unique and interesting gameplay but bringing in other classes would definitely help. Lanz’s Heavy Guard class in particular has some really cool moves like the shield turret. I could potentially see both Noah and Mio getting in as a transform duo but we just did that for Xenoblade 2 so I’m not sure they’ll want to do that again so soon as much as I like Mio.

 

[Garteam]

Akira could be the one exception to playable characters having HD models for the sole reason that Virtua Fighter is essentially the progenitor of modern 3-D gaming (games like DooM and StarFox are impressive and important, but having fully rigged, 3-D, human models was such a game changer). He would also likely have his VF2 model, as VF2 is the most famous game in the series, the Saturn's most iconic title in Japan, and a good way to immediately distinguish him from the Akira assist trophy.

...That being said, I kind of think Sakurai put Akira as an assist and Kazuya as a fighter for a reason. Virtua Fighter is a really cool series and it was absurdly popular in Japan in the mid-90s, which is right in Smash's wheelhouse for character picks. However, unlike the other fighting games with playable characters, VF has never been popular internationally and the franchise has been spinning its wheels since 2010.

Maybe if the VF5 re-release does gangbusters and the franchise revives from the dead overnight, Akira could get the final push he needs. Alternatively, Sakurai could be more open to the idea of having a Third Party that essentially doubles as retro character that much of the international audience wouldn't know after the two Fighter's Passes.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think at most Akira would get a low poly alt. Virtua Fighter might be known for the blocky aesthetic, but it doesn't have that now.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Don't worry, guy, Akira will be a hard lock after VF6 is announced at the Game Awards this year! Just like how Sega announced all those other titles in development there last year! Quote me on this! This is not copium!

 

[Speed Weed]

I've said this before, but I think all you really need to do with Akira is give him his red and blue gi. That's already an easy enough way to make him look cool and distinctive from the other fighting game boys

 

[Wonder Smash]

Looking at Segagaga and Astro Bot, I'm thinking maybe the next Smash Bros game should have the end credits where you're not only shooting the names but also shooting all the Nintendo consoles too...with a Thunder Force theme as an option.

 

[Gengar84]

I haven’t really played Virtua Fighter at all besides when it was new in arcades for a bit. Still not much, but enough to get a general appreciation for how revolutionary it was at the time. I don’t really have any memory of Akira’s moveset or who any of the other characters are. Does Akira have any cool flashy moves that would translate well to Smash and make him stand out from other fighting game characters like Ryu and Kazuya?

 

[HyperSomari64]

Looking at Segagaga and Astro Bot, I'm thinking maybe the next Smash Bros game should have the end credits where you're not only shooting the names but also shooting all the Nintendo consoles too...with a Thunder Force theme as an option.

Now I know about that scene from Sonic 2: Special Edition.

Spoiler: Joke-Explainer 7000

Sonic 2 Special Edition is an old internet series about a fake playthrough of a non-existent expansion of Sonic 2 for Sega CD + 32X.

 

[Guynamednelson]

cool flashy moves

That isn't VF's thing. It's supposed to be a lot more realistic than other fighters, with its only unrealistic elements being more subtle than fireballs and teleporting. Like how Wolf Hawkfield uses a composite of various WWE wrestlers' movesets in a fight that isn't scripted.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I haven’t really played Virtua Fighter at all besides when it was new in arcades for a bit. Still not much, but enough to get a general appreciation for how revolutionary it was at the time. I don’t really have any memory of Akira’s moveset or who any of the other characters are. Does Akira have any cool flashy moves that would translate well to Smash and make him stand out from other fighting game characters like Ryu and Kazuya?

Flashy? No*. Mechanically though he does seem to have a lot of multi-part moves that can be changed depending on the input given, so if they leaned into that, he definitely would be distinct.


*My tastes when it comes to flash seem to be a bit wonky compared to others, and part of that could be Virtua Fighter 5's animations not the best compared to modern games, which wouldn't be a problem in Smash. Also keep in mind that I'm just looking at a movelist here, so it could be cooler in a real match.

 

[Gengar84]

Hmm… interesting. I’m curious if they’d run into the same hurdles that prevented them from going with Heihachi for Smash given that he’s more of a realistic and grounded fighter without an obvious recovery or attacks that really stand out visually. Not saying they can’t make it work but it would be interesting to see how they’d pull it off.

 

[SharkLord]

Hmm… interesting. I’m curious if they’d run into the same hurdles that prevented them from going with Heihachi for Smash given that he’s more of a realistic and grounded fighter without an obvious recovery or attacks that really stand out visually. Not saying they can’t make it work but it would be interesting to see how they’d pull it off.

I think Heihachi was also impacted by the presence of Kazuya, who shared many Mishima-style techniques on top of his Devil Gene giving him a distinct edge. Tekken's a big fighting game series, and if Kazuya/the Devil Gene wasn't an option for whatever reason, I think Sakurai would've tried to spin something out of Heihachi regardless. But Kazuya was there, he was the first main protagonist and oftentimes the main villain, and he had the Devil Gene to set him apart. So, why not?

With Virtua Fighter, there doesn't seem to be an "easy out" in the same way, so translating Akira directly might be a bit tricky. I don't know enough about the series to say, though

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Looking a look at his moveset and some gameplay footage, here's a moveset prediction from someone who has never played Virtua Fighter. Feel free to tell me of the likely many oddly placed or missing moves. lol:

Spoiler: Unique Properties

Like Kazuya, Akira has no hit stop on any of his attacks. Unlike Kazua, Akira can wall jump. Also, while I expect his overall mobility to be low with a slow move speed and a low set of jumps, I think a lot of this will be offset by the sheer number of advancing attacks he has.

EDIT: Also I think his throws would have special camera angles like Kazuya.

Spoiler: Ground Normals:

Neural Attack (Chusui): A punch. Pressing the attack button again performs Hachimon Kaida: Another punch. Pressing the special attack button during Chusui performs Kansuitai: A high kick. This attack has a bigger hitbox compared to Hachimon Kaida, but is otherwise functionally identical. Both act as a standard 1-2 jab. I think Akira can also do this while advancing in Virtua Fighter, but I don’t want to overlap with forward tilt.

Forward Tilt (Souto): A palm thrust with both hands. I believe this is a pressure tool that can combo at the wall in Virtua Fighter, so I imagine that in Smash it will be fairly safe on shield when spaced correctly, and do good damage when it hits.

Up Tilt (Shoutai): A high kick that works as an anti-air.

Down Tilt (Houtei): A knee strike. Pressing the attack button again performs Chouda Chouchu: An elbow strike that ends the combo. Essentially this attack is a crouching jab, perhaps with higher damage in exchange for being a little slower.

Dash Attack: Tetsuzankou: Akira’s signature shoulder check. I'd imagine it works a lot like Terry's Power Charge.

Spoiler: Command Normals:

Crouching Attack (Youzentai): A sweep kick that acts as a more normal forward tilt.
(Rimon Chouchu): An advancing elbow strike. Great for whiff punishes.
(Yakuho Chouchu): A strike with the other elbow that has a bit more startup, but advances farther. A bit more committal, but allows you to jumpscare opponents with deceptive range.
(Hekishou): A downward punch. I think this is a pressure tool, but don't quote me on that.
(Youhou): An advancing uppercut that pops opponents up for combos.
(Geimon Tessen): An advancing side hammerfist. This is another move for making your opponent deal with your deceptive range, with this move either being safer on shield.

Spoiler: Air Normals

Neutral Aerial (Touku Rakushou): A palm strike. It’s aimed at the opponent’s head in Virtua Fighter, so in Smash it will probably be a very difficult to hit on small and crouching opponents.

Forward Aerial (Jouho Toushou): A palm strike. Technically not an aerial attack, but a move Akira performs upon landing. I’ll take a small creative liberty here and just have the attack not end if you land with it, even gaining more power if you hit while on the ground.

Back Aerial (Hekiyakutai): A low kick aimed behind Akira. This attack requires a wall in Virtua Fighter, but doing it without one here really isn't a stretch.

Up Aerial (Tankyaku): A high kick. Pretty standard for an FGC up air.

Down Aerial (Gekihousui): A downward punch. If Akira lands during the move, he will punch the ground. The aerial punch spikes, and the grounded one jab locks opponents.

Spoiler: Smash Attacks:

Forward Smash: Chouzan Housui: Akira strikes with both fists.
Up Smash: Renkantai: Two jumping kicks.
Down Smash: Koboku: An overhead chop with both hands.

Spoiler: Throws:

Forward Throw (Kaikusei): A punch that launches the opponent forward.

Back Throw (Youshi Senrin): A shoulder check.

Up Throw (Tenhou Senkintsui): Akira lifts the opponent onto his shoulder, and tosses them. I kinda modified the throw on this one because this one causes a knockdown in Virtua Fighter.

Down Throw (Houko Kizan): A gut punch that puts the opponent on the ground, setting up a tech chase.

Spoiler: Special Moves:

Neutral Special (Senzankou): A shoulder check. Pressing the special move button again performs Tenshi Souhousou and Tierou Kanpo, a command grab that pushes the opponent forward, locking them in hitstun (kind of like Sora’s counter), followed up by a forward dash. From there, you can either do nothing, allowing you to use other moves to pressure your opponent, or choose one of the following follow-ups:

• Mouko Kouhazan: An advancing punch that launches the opponent away.
• Hyousatai: A foot stomp that keeps them close.

Side Special (Jouho Touken): Akira steps forward as he throws a punch. Flicking the stick backward after the punch has him perform Jouho Touken~Tanheitou, a hop backward. From there, you can input the following techniques:

• Anshou: Akira lunges forward and delivers another punch. Pressing A again has him perform Anshou Chouchu, finishing the combo with an elbow strike.
• Jahin Hisei: Akira lunges forward and does a sweep kick. Pressing B again has him perform Hakkaku Chuten, grabbing the opponent and throwing them onto the floor behind him.

Up Special (Zensoutai~Hakkaku Chuten): This one requires the most creative liberties, and is probably what will keep him from joining the roster. I’ve decided to modify Zensoutai for this one, as it’s the most interesting of his jump attacks. Instead of activating on landing however, this is a jumping hit grab where Akira kicks the opponent’s legs, and uses the momentum of the kick to toss them behind him. This sends opponents at a really disadvantageous angle, but is difficult to capitalize on at low percents due to the move putting you in free fall.

Down Special (Tsutenhou): A counter that stuns an opponent quite literally like Sora’s Counter. This is immediately followed up by Mouko Kouhazan, a move where Akira jabs the opponent in the gut, causing them to drop to the ground. This move doesn’t deal extra damage depending on the damage of the countered move, but rather, causes the opponent to fall to the ground more slowly, making the opponent easier to tech chase, or straight up allowing you to follow up with whatever you want.

Assuming something like this is what they come up with, I think Akira would be a character that plays just outside of close range, using his advancing attacks to catch people overextending in neutral and jumpscaring them when they aren't prepared.

 

[ninjahmos]

If Heihachi ever got into Smash, they'd have to incorporate his Spinning Demon Kick somehow.

Also, I think we know what his neutral special should be:

EDIT: Furthermore, they should not only use his iconic dark green gi with the Tiger on the back, but also his Tekken 3 design and his business suit. And remix his Tekken 2 theme.

 

[Gengar84]

As far as fighting game characters go, my top three most wanted are Fulgore (Killer Instinct), Sun-Zero (Mortal Kombat), and Nightmare (Soul Calibur). I’m not sure how much a chance any of them have since they all face their own hurdles. Killer Instinct is probably the smallest of the three series and hasn’t had a new game in over 10 years. Mortal Kombat is by far the biggest of the three but has a lack of presence in Japan due to its overly violent nature. Soul Calibur 6 didn’t meet sales expectations and it seems like the series is on hiatus for now. I don’t think any of them are impossible though and I’d be really excited to see any one of them at some point. If I could only pick one, I’d go with Fulgore partly due to the amazing Killer Instinct soundtracks.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I think a second Sonic character is the only likely Sega character right now. And I think Shadow is the likeliest option.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think a second Sonic character is the only likely Sega character right now. And I think Shadow is the likeliest option.

I don't know if they would go that route, considering how poorly Sonic is represented in the game.

 

[ninjahmos]

If Shadow ever does get into Smash, they should give him sound effects from Sonic Adventure 2, especially when he jumps. Also, I think I found a (hopefully) better moveset for him, but it's from Project M.

 

[Gengar84]

I’m curious if Shadow’s Venom symbiote powers are going to be a permanent thing going forward or if they were just for that one specific game. That would definitely make for an interesting Smash character.

 

[fogbadge]

Soul Calibur 6 didn’t meet sales expectations and it seems like the series is on hiatus for now.

well there go my hopes for a switch 2 port

I’m curious if Shadow’s Venom symbiote powers are going to be a permanent thing going forward or if they were just for that one specific game. That would definitely make for an interesting Smash character.

spoiler warning he loses the powers so probably not

 

[Gengar84]

well there go my hopes for a switch 2 port



spoiler warning he loses the powers so probably not

I actually just bought Soul Calibur 6 on sale on PS4 for $10 and all the DLC for around $24 for a total of $34. Now I can say I’ve bought every game in the series. I mostly just wanted to create characters again and there’s limited games I enjoy that allow for that. I’ll play around with the story mode too though.

Regarding Shadow: That’s a shame. Those powers looked really cool and I’d have loved to see what they could do with them in a Smash character. I definitely prefer the symbiote powers to his guns and motorcycle and I feel like it fits better in the Sonic universe. I’m probably biased because I’m a huge Venom fan though.

 

[fogbadge]

I actually just bought Soul Calibur 6 on sale on PS4 for $10 and all the DLC for around $24 for a total of $34. Now I can say I’ve bought every game in the series. I mostly just wanted to create characters again and there’s limited games I enjoy that allow for that. I’ll play around with the story mode too though.

Regarding Shadow: That’s a shame. Those powers looked really cool and I’d have loved to see what they could do with them in a Smash character. I definitely prefer the symbiote powers to his guns and motorcycle and I feel like it fits better in the Sonic universe. I’m probably biased because I’m a huge Venom fan though.

well most of the most venom esc abilities may have been a bit too tricky to put in smash. not impossible just difficult

anyway I hope you enjoy your time with SC6

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

I know the Dr Eggman discussion was a few pages ago but is there seriously an argument that Bowser Jr and the Koopa Clown Car makes Robotnik redundant? As if we don't have and on the same roster? Genuinely asking here.

 

[Guynamednelson]

As if we don't have and on the same roster?

To be fair there were people saying Banjo-Kazooie would be a Duck Hunt clone. With varying levels of seriousness.

 

[Gengar84]

well most of the most venom esc abilities may have been a bit too tricky to put in smash. not impossible just difficult

anyway I hope you enjoy your time with SC6

Thanks. Just creating our own characters from our story in the game for now and messing around with them in mock battles. It looks like they added a one button super to the game that does a cool cinematic attack. I’m guessing outside of the mock battle, you need to build up some kind of meter to use it. Cool looking attacks though.

 

[fogbadge]

Thanks. Just creating our own characters from our story in the game for now and messing around with them in mock battles. It looks like they added a one button super to the game that does a cool cinematic attack. I’m guessing outside of the mock battle, you need to build up some kind of meter to use it. Cool looking attacks though.

yeah I used to have fun with the soul calibur character creator. I remember I managed to make an eggman

 

[Louie G.]

I know the Dr Eggman discussion was a few pages ago but is there seriously an argument that Bowser Jr and the Koopa Clown Car makes Robotnik redundant?

Honestly I didn't see anyone say this the other day, just some people like myself alluding to the fact that Junior is the closest thing to a mech character we have right now. None of the arguments against Eggman were founded in the idea that he would be too similar to Bowser Jr, because he probably wouldn't.

I actually mentioned him to suggest I don't think Bowser Jr goes far enough with the "mech" concept, and that I'd like to see someone join who is designed with more commitment toward the idea like Dr. Eggman, or Porky or something.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Honestly I didn't see anyone say this the other day, just some people like myself alluding to the fact that Junior is the closest thing to a mech character we have right now. None of the arguments against Eggman were founded in the idea that he would be too similar to Bowser Jr, because he probably wouldn't.

I actually mentioned him to suggest I don't think Bowser Jr goes far enough with the "mech" concept, and that I'd like to see someone join who is designed with more commitment toward the idea like Dr. Eggman, or Porky or something.

I think the closest thing was me saying there'd be thematic overlap with Dr. Eggman in the Eggmobile specifically, and I wasn't saying that it couldn't happen because of it.

 

[SharkLord]

I actually just bought Soul Calibur 6 on sale on PS4 for $10 and all the DLC for around $24 for a total of $34. Now I can say I’ve bought every game in the series. I mostly just wanted to create characters again and there’s limited games I enjoy that allow for that. I’ll play around with the story mode too though.

Regarding Shadow: That’s a shame. Those powers looked really cool and I’d have loved to see what they could do with them in a Smash character. I definitely prefer the symbiote powers to his guns and motorcycle and I feel like it fits better in the Sonic universe. I’m probably biased because I’m a huge Venom fan though.

SxSG plot spoilers Actually it's unclear if Shadow lost his powers for good. The mutations were brought on by his link with Black Doom, but Shadow emphasizes that he's made the powers his own. When Black Doom died, it could have taken the Doom Powers with him, but I don't think it's ever explicitly stated if that was the case. Furthermore, Black Doom is explained to be a hive mind controlling the Black Arms, and can manifest in any Black Arms in the case of his old body dying (Except Shadow, who has enough willpower to resist); Rouge outright states that killing Black Doom in White Space might not be enough, because he might have some extra Black Arms parked somewhere else in the galaxy. It's entirely possible that Shadow was just tired after the big fight and couldn't keep up the Doom Wings.

As for the Doom Powers in Smash, the Wings are the only ones that would A: Be prominently eldritch, and B: Actually practical to use. Doom Spears and Doom Blast are just Chaos Spears and physical attacks but stronger, Doom Morph would be a bit clunky to implement as a full move, and Doom Surf is, uh... In what situation would he get to use that?

So essentially, they can have the Doom Wings as a cool recovery move, and easily sneak in the Spears and Blast without too much issue

 

[fogbadge]

Doom Surf is, uh... In what situation would he get to use that?

a side special ramming attack?

 

[PersonAngelo53]

SxSG plot spoilers Actually it's unclear if Shadow lost his powers for good. The mutations were brought on by his link with Black Doom, but Shadow emphasizes that he's made the powers his own. When Black Doom died, it could have taken the Doom Powers with him, but I don't think it's ever explicitly stated if that was the case. Furthermore, Black Doom is explained to be a hive mind controlling the Black Arms, and can manifest in any Black Arms in the case of his old body dying (Except Shadow, who has enough willpower to resist); Rouge outright states that killing Black Doom in White Space might not be enough, because he might have some extra Black Arms parked somewhere else in the galaxy. It's entirely possible that Shadow was just tired after the big fight and couldn't keep up the Doom Wings.

As for the Doom Powers in Smash, the Wings are the only ones that would A: Be prominently eldritch, and B: Actually practical to use. Doom Spears and Doom Blast are just Chaos Spears and physical attacks but stronger, Doom Morph would be a bit clunky to implement as a full move, and Doom Surf is, uh... In what situation would he get to use that?

So essentially, they can have the Doom Wings as a cool recovery move, and easily sneak in the Spears and Blast without too much issue

Shadow would be the only character that cannot drown in stages where you can fall on water. He would start surfing immediately when he touches water.

lol just sharing a silly idea.