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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

SPEN18

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Am I the only one who could see both EarthBound boys being cut? The series isn't a mainstay, and while the original 8 is sacred, I don't think the same about the original 12.
Mm, I could see the argument just because if they end up having to remove another smaller franchise, it's an inactive and more niche one. The fact that there's two of them probably makes it seem like Ness (the presumed higher-priority one) has a bit of a cushion, but on the other hand, you could say that in a significant cutdown at least one of the two (most likely Lucas) is just straight gone regardless and it's simply a matter of getting one or zero Mother reps.
However, I don't expect Mother to be cut completely from the playable roster, no. I think they're going to try to avoid cutting entire first party franchises from the roster if possible. There's enough auxiliary reps from larger franchises and third parties who could be cut that probably they will be able to keep most first party franchises, and if we do lose a few I don't see Mother at the absolute bottom of the priority list.
 

Louie G.

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Am I the only one who could see both EarthBound boys being cut? The series isn't a mainstay, and while the original 8 is sacred, I don't think the same about the original 12.
I've spoken on this before but like... let's exempt Ness from the legacy points and Original 12 status for a second.

Mother still has a wealth of content in Smash. It has two characters, four stages, classic items in Mr. Saturn and Franklin Badge. Lots of beloved music, a couple Assist Trophies, you get the picture. Every Smash has made a deliberate attempt to retain content from the previous entries... if the entire Mother series was cut from the game, this loss would be catastrophic. Maybe this is just by circumstance - they've had over 20 years to build up this amount of content. But to clear the board on all of this would be absolutely jarring. I truly truly cannot see it happening even withholding my bias toward the series, unless Smash truly sees a full on, scorched earth reboot.

(And yeah I mean, you could bring back a lot of that stuff without Ness but... why?)

Ness is also an extremely popular fighter. While there isn't an official statistic I can point to outside of fan cultivated graphs, I can say with relative confidence that Ness sits among the most played characters in both Smash 4 and Ultimate through my own observation. Largely devoid of any meta influence, he just is a very common pick up and play character with presumably a base of players who are very dedicated to him. He's also arguably the first mage character in the series, and while I said I was going to judge him separately from legacy I will say Smash has a tendency to keep its more foundational, archetypical fighters that others are built upon. How many fighters have some derivative of PK Fire? Lucas, Robin and Joker at least.

And then frankly, I straight up don't think Earthbound is an irrelevant game or series. It's a complete, "retired" series yes - so what has been done since Mother 3 to keep it afloat? Honestly, quite a lot. All three Mother titles are on NSO and were met with sufficient fanfare and promotion. The series has been receiving an unprecedented amount of official merchandise. Its influence lives on through a number of widely successful indie titles. I feel like there is barely anything further that can be done here. Earthbound is a bigger deal today than it was 25 years ago when Ness first joined Smash... it is the figurehead of Nintendo cult classics. A path that Smash certainly helped pave the way for, but a success brought about by Smash Bros is still a success at the end of the day.
 
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DarthEnderX

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It's easy to be pessimistic about Ultimate DX/2/whatever having barely any newcomers when Sakurai himself said Ultimate would barely have any base game newcomers, and he was right.
I don't understand the pessimism though. Ultimate DID have fewer base game newcomers.

...but so what? By the time it was DONE, it had just as many newcomers as any other Smash game.

So the price for EiH was more characters ended up as DLC. A small price to pay, really.

Just watch Sakurai pull some more magic programming BS out of his ass again for the next Smash and we get over 100 characters AND EiH AGAIN.
If by "magic programming BS" you mean "Smash gets the budget that Nintendo's 2nd best selling game should reasonably have".

It sure will have the netcode of one though
Even Virtua Fighter is getting rollback!

You're the only holdout, Smash!

I tried to limit each series' fighter count to only four tops, I still lost some fighters I'd much rather keep.
Amateur hour!

One character per series!

40.png


People just want to experience new things and not just play the exact same game over and over for all eternity.
You don't speak for everyone.

If Smash 6 decides to build upon Ultimate the easy slogan would be: Everyone Is Back!
1732506346232.png


They will never pull a Street Fighter 3 lol
Nobody should ever pull a SF3.

I'm pretty sure you'll play the version that has Ryu Hayabusa and a Metal Slug character as part of the roster.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Assuming you mean unique characters, actually, it's not....base Ult had 69 unique fighters by the official count. So that would be about the same as Ult had at base.

Part of the problem with the reactions to the numbers being thrown out for next game is people comparing it to Ult's final count of 82, which took years after release to realize.
Yeah no not all unique and newcomers accounted for. I honestly don't think we'll end up with something smaller in size than Smash 4, DLC included.

I mean sure all is not realisable but Ultimate laid heavy ground work for a foundation already. Veterans won't be the problem to include.

I just think they're gonna be more selective in what characters they want to include. And to be safe, I bet the bigger and famous names are gonna be included in favor over the gimmicky inclusions.

Whatever was once popular and has a namesake outside of Smash, that's a safe bet. I don't think for example we indeed will end up with a "I can't believe they ****ing cut Meta Knight" situation. Wii Fit Trainer, Ice Climbers, Sheik, Lucas, Young Link, Dr.Mario, Pichu, a big slew of third party characters... these guys am looking at.
 

Kirbeh

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I always find it somewhat interesting how whenever scaling back does come into the discussion, there's always some push for culling franchises like Mother, F-Zero or even Star Fox.

I just find it a bit ironic that the series that's supposed to be celebrating Nintendo's history is then turned into more of a vehicle for marketing first, being a cool crossover game coming second.

It's the sort of thing I'd expect from a suit/investor trying to push whatever's new for cross promotion and sales. That's absolutely part of Smash too, and I want more contemporary picks but it does read a bit like an out of touch suit when you see "x doesn't have an upcoming release we can market, therefore it's not worth including anymore."

In a heavy cuts scenario you definitely have to make some hard choices but again, Smash is a game about the company's history. I'm sure you could argue that smaller/dormant series can make due with cameos and smaller roles but at that point I feel like you've lost part of what makes Smash, well- Smash.

I can see some franchises getting scaled back to single reps, but I don't see them removing all of their characters outright. Only exceptions I feel would be retro/joke/surprise characters if they're considered to be part of their own collective pool based on that criteria specifically.
 

Jave

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Yeah, realistically speaking I think a base roster the size of Smash 4's base roster is the absolute lowest we could get. Smash 4 was made from scratch (new team coming from Brawl) and for TWO systems, and they still managed to make a roster that big.

I believe Sakurai's MO for the next game is that he will try to bring back as many characters as possible, but he will prioritize newcomers this time around, unlike Ultimate where the priority was to bring back all veterans.
 

ninjahmos

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Honestly, I don't see why you would cut any of the franchises that were in Smash 64, especially Mother/EarthBound, F-Zero and Star Fox, because they were there since the beginning and they're all a part of Nintendo's legacy.

Smash is mainly a celebration of Nintendo, and by having Smash without any of these franchises, it probably wouldn't even feel like Smash at all.
 

Diddy Kong

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Fox, Captain Falcon and Ness are staying. That's honestly no debate. Wether secondary characters of Star Fox and Mother stay is another discussion, but a point can be made in favor of them. For example Lucas being picked as DLC Fighter for 4, and Wolf being one of the most popular returning veterans.

This very reason is part of why I want to fuse Ness and Lucas into one character honestly. And make Lucas a straight Echo of Ness. Give Ness all the PSI Smash attacks and make the Yo Yo part of his tilts. Differentiate them by PK Flash / PK Freeze. And done.

Same reason I'd make Falco a Melee style clone again. Preservation. That would maybe allow them to keep Wolf.

Decisions like that can also lead to more characters in the end.

Probably not all too likely however. I'll admit that. But it is an argument to keep them over more complicated and gimmicky characters who aren't all too popular or famous outside of Smash.
 

Idon

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Fox, Captain Falcon and Ness are staying. That's honestly no debate. Wether secondary characters of Star Fox and Mother stay is another discussion, but a point can be made in favor of them. For example Lucas being picked as DLC Fighter for 4, and Wolf being one of the most popular returning veterans.

This very reason is part of why I want to fuse Ness and Lucas into one character honestly. And make Lucas a straight Echo of Ness. Give Ness all the PSI Smash attacks and make the Yo Yo part of his tilts. Differentiate them by PK Flash / PK Freeze. And done.

Same reason I'd make Falco a Melee style clone again. Preservation. That would maybe allow them to keep Wolf.

Decisions like that can also lead to more characters in the end.

Probably not all too likely however. I'll admit that. But it is an argument to keep them over more complicated and gimmicky characters who aren't all too popular or famous outside of Smash.
Diluting character uniqueness in order to bloat the roster does not seem a good tradeoff. I'd rather my favorites not make it in at all than be butchered like that lol.
 

dream1ng

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People here are too unambitious. You don't simply go back after something like Ultimate.
Sure you can. Pokemon games no longer launch with the full dex. Splatoon games launch with less content than the previous built up to. Mario Kart next will not have as much content as MK8DX has now. Ultimate is very impressive but it's not sacrosanct.

A lot of games launch with less content than the previous one accumulated. They build themselves back up over time with DLC. Perhaps they eventually top out higher, perhaps not - it depends on what the game aims to accomplish - but by then, the game has already sold its millions.

Ambition is perennially checked by logistics, namely budget.

No I don't. As far as I know, they made the choice to bring all the old characters back because it's what the fans asked for.

And that has no effect on development time in any case. For Ultimate they ported/enhanced 50-something characters from the previous game and created 13 characters mostly from scratch. That's... not really something you can dispute.
Ultimate heavily leaned on reuse, whether directly with 4's assets or just with returning previous content, which does indeed have an effect on development time. Even with completely rebuilt veterans - though some did exist to some extent in 4's data, like ICs.

Had the game instead added unique newcomers in the place of the cut vets they brought back, it would've increased the development time and budget. Which is probably part of the reason they went the route they went for, knowing they'd be able to use DLC to round out newcomers.

I’m sure a lot more work had to be done with those characters to bring them up to modern gameplay that it’s reasonable we had less newcomers.
More than a character they literally already had the complete data for from Smash 4... but a lot less than a unique newcomer.

Just watch Sakurai pull some more magic programming BS out of his ass again for the next Smash and we get over 100 characters AND EiH AGAIN.
Magic is indeed the best defence when faced with the practicalities of what going bigger than Ultimate would entail, unless they continue using 4's base; which is itself untenable.

I mean, if the good AI(Basically, not generative AI) of making work simpler and easier for developers gets better, I wouldn't be surprised if at the least, we don't need to worry about cuts for Nintendo characters. 3rd Party characters are still a different matter since licensing and whatnot.
I don't think we're at that point for a game that is likely already a couple years into development. I also don't see someone like Sakurai being at the forefront of embracing a tool that decreases micromanaging. I mean it took until 4 for him to just let other people help balance the game.

You don't speak for everyone.
Sales indicate this is generally true though, as, all else being equal, new titles more often than not sell better than re-releases. So he doesn't speak for everyone, but he does speak for the majority.
 
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Garteam

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Am I the only one who could see both EarthBound boys being cut? The series isn't a mainstay, and while the original 8 is sacred, I don't think the same about the original 12.
To be fully honest, just knowing this about the roster would be a massive red flag. It would basically confirm that at least 65% of the roster has been cut (probably closer to 75% if Ness of all characters is gone) and the roster would basically only consist of modern characters thrown in to sell a product.

Sure you can. Pokemon games no longer launch with the full dex.
Modern Pokemon is basically the exact direction I don't want Smash to go. Judging by Scarlet and Violet having absolutely zero legs in terms of sales, I can't imagine it's the direction Nintendo wants Smash to go in, either.
 
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Gengar84

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To be fully honest, just knowing this about the roster would be a massive red flag. It would basically confirm that at least 65% of the roster has been cut (probably closer to 75% if Ness of all characters is gone) and the roster would basically only consist of modern characters thrown in to sell a product.


Modern Pokemon is basically the exact direction I don't want Smash to go. Judging by Scarlet and Violet having absolutely zero legs in terms of sales, I can't imagine it's the direction Nintendo wants Smash to go in, either.
I think a lot of Pokémon’s current problems could be solved with a new Pokemon Stadium game. The Stadium game could just be purely about battling and random mini games where the core games could focus more on the Champaign itself. They could let another developer make the Stadium games like they did for the originals and Battle Revolution so they could include all the Pokémon with optional toggles for gimmicks like Megas, Dynamax, Z moves, and Terrastalizatiom. The core games could even have a much smaller dex than they do now. I think i could be satisfied with a 200ish sized dex for the main games with half new Pokémon and half returning Pokemon. As long as I can still play them all somewhere in the same game, that’s cool with me.

Smash doesn’t really have that option because battling is almost all there is. Unless we get Subspace Emissary back, there’s no grand story like Pokemon that would stand on its own. Even Subspace would have struggled as its own game without the greater focus on the roster and normal battles.
 
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Noipoi

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Modern Pokemon is basically the exact direction I don't want Smash to go. Judging by Scarlet and Violet having absolutely zero legs in terms of sales, I can't imagine it's the direction Nintendo wants Smash to go in, either.
Scarlet and Violet is in the top ten best selling games in the franchise. I think it’s one of the best selling games in Japan period rn.

I’m not trying to be Gen 9’s greatest defender or anything, the game has massive issues. I’m genuinely intrigued as to what you mean by this. By all accounts the game is a success financially.
 

Arcanir

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Modern Pokemon is basically the exact direction I don't want Smash to go. Judging by Scarlet and Violet having absolutely zero legs in terms of sales, I can't imagine it's the direction Nintendo wants Smash to go in, either.
SV is currently the third best selling game in the franchise and is on track to outsell SwSh by next year, making it the second only to RB. Additionally, it outselling SwSh would be a first for the franchise as usually the second set of games does worse than the first on their respective systems (GS sold less then RBG, BW sold worse then DP).

There are definitely complaints to have and lessons for GF/TCPi to learn (namely about giving proper development time), but having no legs is not one of them.
 
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Guynamednelson

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Diluting character uniqueness in order to bloat the roster does not seem a good tradeoff. I'd rather my favorites not make it in at all than be butchered like that lol.
Sakurai thought it would be a bad idea to make Dr. Mario a costume because Doc already had gameplay differences made for him for Melee.

And if Dr. Mario being stronger-but-slower-oops-we-forgot-the-slower-part in Melee was too different to become a costume, Lucas, being a semiclone, certainly is too.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Sakurai thought it would be a bad idea to make Dr. Mario a costume because Doc already had gameplay differences made for him for Melee.

And if Dr. Mario being stronger-but-slower-oops-we-forgot-the-slower-part in Melee was too different to become a costume, Lucas, being a semiclone, certainly is too.
Also, cause Sakurai didn't want to disappoint the Dr. Mario fans from Melee by reducing him to a measly costume.

Which should say a lot about why he only separates characters from alts. Simply because they have different gameplay programming(even if it's something you'll never really notice at all, like Daisy's animations having slightly different hurtboxes. The fact her gameplay is different is enough to get her a slot).
 

Pupp135

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For the sake of conversation, here's how I may roughly organize where I see priorities falling next time for first parties. Notably I didn't include every character here, not because I think anyone I excluded would be cut but moreso because I don't know how to categorize like... specifically Rosalina or Bowser Jr? I think at least one of those guys is very likely to return but they're in kind of a limbo area. Don't read into anyone's absence too hard, in other words.

:ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultfox::ultpikachu: - Original 8
:ultmarth::ultwario::ultolimar::ultvillager::ultshulk::ultinkling::ultminmin - "Active" IP with notable current / last gen releases
:ultness::ultfalcon::ultpit::ultlittlemac: - Character-driven Legacy IP

All of the character-driven staple series. I emphasize this point - character driven - because the only ones I believe are in significant danger of being cut altogether are the more abstract fighter concepts and retro pulls. Feel free to debate with me on what this entails but I see a pretty stark difference in representing a series like Punch-Out, with several games spanning a 15-20 year interval, vs Ice Climber or Gyromite.

:ultluigi::ultpeach::ultbowser::ultdiddy::ultzelda::ultganondorf::ultridley::ultkingdedede::ultmetaknight::ultisabelle::ultpyra::ultmythra: - Major Supporting
:ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard::ultmewtwo::ultlucario::ultgreninja::ultincineroar: / :ultike::ultrobin::ultbyleth: - Fairweather Cast

Self explanatory. I didn't feel like singling out the Pokemon very much so it's just a matter of picking and choosing who gets dibs. Fire Emblem... same thing I guess, but I think these three stand a cut above the others.

:ultkrool::ultsheik::ultzss::ultfalco::ultjigglypuff::ulticeclimbers::ultroy::ultgnw::ultpalutena: - "Smash Core"

The most abstract category, and one that is notably not accounting for every candidate, because it's hard to say exactly what this means. But to me it's characters whose merits fall outside these discernable categories and exist within a more vague assessment of Smash's own identity, gameplay or community. These may not be the most popular or recurring characters in their own series, or their respective series may not be an active part of the Nintendo brand, but they offer something or another that may be seen as valuable.

Feel free to throw ROB in here, Wii Fit Trainer, Toon Link, whoever. This is a sample selection, not the be all end all.
I’ll make another attempt at a priority list

Priorities (I’m not going to order them within tiers)

Nintendo
Top Priority

:ultmario::ultdk::ultlink::ultsamus::ultyoshi::ultkirby::ultfox::ultpikachu::ultluigi::ultfalcon::ultness:
:ultbowser::ultpeach::ultzelda::ultmarth::ultganondorf::ultgnw:
:ultmetaknight::ultpit::ultwario::ultpokemontrainer::ultdiddy::ultkingdedede::ultolimar:
:ultvillager::ultmiifighters::ultshulk:
:ultinkling::ultridley::ultisabelle:
These feel like the most prominent Nintendo characters, and the only cut that wouldn’t completely shock me is Pokemon Trainer where time constraints lead to a last resort cut. The original 8 are dubbed as the true perfect attendees, Captain Falcon is the Falcon Punch Guy, Mother and Kid Icarus are important to SSB, Fire Emblem, Wario, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Xenoblade, and Splatoon are relevant, Mr. Game & Watch seems to be the poster child of surprise fighters, Mii costumes are a part of the DLC cycle, and the other fighters are prominent characters in their respective franchise.

Highish priority
:ulticeclimbers::ultsheik::ultfalco::ultzss::ultike::ultlucario::ultrob::ulttoonlink:
:ultrosalina::ultlittlemac::ultgreninja::ultpalutena::ultrobin::ultkrool::ultincineroar::ultbyleth::ultminmin:ultmythra:

These are fighters that I think would be in consideration at least during the initial planning stages, and these would be tougher cuts caused depending on how strict the time constraints are. These characters fall into one of these bins: long term veterans who seem to have priority based on prior entries (top row pretty much barring Icies’ 3DS limitation cut), characters with movesets that stand put (Icies, Rosalina, Robin, and potentially Incinoroar), popular requests (Little Mac, Palutena, K. Rool), contemporary picks (Ultimate’s Nintendo Challenger Pass characters), and supplemental Pokemon/Fire Emblem fighters.

Toss-Up?
:ultjigglypuff::ultmewtwo::ultwiifittrainer::ultbowserjr::ultduckhunt:
While these aren’t the first fighters on the chopping block, I think these fighters would be the first ones to drop with tighter time constraints. Jigglypuff is typically low priority but sneaks it way back. I’d like to put Mewtwo up a tier, but it was cut in Brawl and held off until DLC for For. The other three are just a case where I think the characters above would be treated as a higher priority based on my reasoning above.

Low Priority
:ultdoc::ultpichu::ultyounglink::ultroy::ultlucas::ultwolf::ultcorrin::ultpiranha:
Pretty much these are the fighters that have been historically low priority or in Corrin’s case, competing with a ton of other fighters.

Third Party
Top Priority

:ultsonic::ultmegaman::ultpacman::ultryu::ultbayonetta:
Sonic, Mega Man, and Bayonetta were requested fighters, and it seems that Sega and Capcom are easier to work with. Pac-Man and Ryu are easy enough to license in terms of additional major third party fighters.
Highish Priority
:ultcloud::ulthero2::ultbanjokazooie::ultsteve::ultsora:
I think most of the Square/Microsoft fighters would be important to eventually add, but licensing concerns are probably larger with them compared to Sega, Capcom, and Namco. Also, Banjo & Kazooie and Sora were major requests.
Toss-Up?
:ultsnake::ultsimon::ultsephiroth:
My doubts towards Snake and Simon more or less lie with having to also compete with Sega, Namco, Capcom, Square, and Microsoft, but these fighters were requested, which could be a motivator to keep them. Sephiroth is more or less a case of how Square wants to handle Final Fantasy (VII) content.
Low Priority
:ultjoker::ult_terry::ultkazuya:
I have nothing against these fighters, and I think it’s just a case where Nintendo/Sakurai would prioritize the other ones specified above.
 

Opossum

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Modern Pokemon is basically the exact direction I don't want Smash to go. Judging by Scarlet and Violet having absolutely zero legs in terms of sales, I can't imagine it's the direction Nintendo wants Smash to go in, either.
????
This is blatantly false. The games are on track to outsell Sword and Shield within the next half year, which is basically unheard of for the second pair of mainline games on a console, and even now it's the third highest selling pair in the series over all. I don't know what reality exists out there where they didn't have legs, but it sure as hell isn't this one.
 

BritishGuy54

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????
This is blatantly false. The games are on track to outsell Sword and Shield within the next half year, which is basically unheard of for the second pair of mainline games on a console, and even now it's the third highest selling pair in the series over all. I don't know what reality exists out there where they didn't have legs, but it sure as hell isn't this one.
Don’t forget that Scarlet and Violet just became the highest selling Pokémon games in Japan.
 

Gengar84

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It is weird how amazingly Scarlet and Violet sold when the general reception of the game was as negative as it was. Was it really just due to name recognition and it was always going to sell that well regardless just because it’s Pokemon? I enjoyed the game for what it was but I’m a bit frustrated that it could have been so much more. The fact that it sold as well as it did even with its flaws and reception makes me less hopeful they’ll ever go all out in the future. It might just be me but I get the impression that they know what is needed to sell the game and put the bare minimum amount of time and effort in to get to that point.
 

Noipoi

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It is weird how amazingly Scarlet and Violet sold when the general reception of the game was as negative as it was. Was it really just due to name recognition and it was always going to sell that well regardless just because it’s Pokemon? I enjoyed the game for what it was but I’m a bit frustrated that it could have been so much more. The fact that it sold as well as it did even with its flaws and reception makes me less hopeful they’ll ever go all out in the future. It might just be me but I get the impression that they know what is needed to sell the game and put the bare minimum amount of time and effort in to get to that point.
I understand the concern, but I dunno. For as good as the game sold the outcry was very prominent. The state the game released in was embarrassing quite frankly, and it’s not much better now. Everyone saw that. Hell, Nintendo made an official statement about it.

Everyone likes to say that Gamefreak never listens but that’s not really true. They definitely know that people were not pleased about S/V’s performance, and while this is speculation, I feel like they know they couldn’t really get away with it again.

I think that’s why they delayed ZA from 2024 to next year. Partially to line up with the Switch 2, but also to give the game some extra time in the oven.
 

BritishGuy54

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I’m going to predict that Pokémon Legends Z-A doesn’t release on the Switch 2. Sure, it might get graphical upgrades. But I don’t think it’ll straight up release as a Switch 2 game.

Pokémon has historically been late to the party on basically every system, starting with Gen 2’s Pokémon Crystal, then Emerald, Black 2/White 2, Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon…

Pretty much, while Mario and Zelda tend to kick off a new system, Pokémon typically closes off a system’s first party line up.

And considering what other games are likely in the pipeline, perhaps it allows Pokémon to have room to breathe in 2026 with Gen 10 instead of being cramped in 2025 with what will likely be a ton of Mario titles for his 40th anniversary, and even more crunch time for the mainline Pokémon games.
 

Diddy Kong

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Diluting character uniqueness in order to bloat the roster does not seem a good tradeoff. I'd rather my favorites not make it in at all than be butchered like that lol.
Well bloating is a big word. I said preserve. And honestly the uniqueness of both Falco and Lucas can still be kept in tact, just to a lesser degree. 😅

But yeah the fact they're not fully unique already could actually be a positive factor for them.
 

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I understand the concern, but I dunno. For as good as the game sold the outcry was very prominent. The state the game released in was embarrassing quite frankly, and it’s not much better now. Everyone saw that. Hell, Nintendo made an official statement about it.

Everyone likes to say that Gamefreak never listens but that’s not really true. They definitely know that people were not pleased about S/V’s performance, and while this is speculation, I feel like they know they couldn’t really get away with it again.

I think that’s why they delayed ZA from 2024 to next year. Partially to line up with the Switch 2, but also to give the game some extra time in the oven.
Yeah this is the thing. A lot of people don't realize it but Game Freak is very, very conscious of fan reception. If the complete backpedaling they did around Black and White when it didn't have past Pokémon available in the main story wasn't indicative of that, then the leaked memo notes from the tera leak absolutely is.

You can see conscious efforts being made each time to specifically target the biggest issues from the last generation.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Yeah this is the thing. A lot of people don't realize it but Game Freak is very, very conscious of fan reception. If the complete backpedaling they did around Black and White when it didn't have past Pokémon available in the main story wasn't indicative of that, then the leaked memo notes from the tera leak absolutely is.

You can see conscious efforts being made each time to specifically target the biggest issues from the last generation.
I suppose to be fair, a lot of the issues people have had with the past two generations are structural:
  • Dexit: Despite Gamefreak straight up lying about why they did this, it was going to be necessary at some point, so whether they were ripping the band-aid off or just literally couldn't swing it, it couldn't be helped.
  • Pokémon Scarlet/Violet being a glitchy mess: Due to not having done so before, Gamefreak has no idea how to optimize a fully 3D game, and are learning it themselves while also trying to go fast.
    • Ugly assets like the trees are a symptom of this issue.
  • Unfinished/over-saturation of games: This is caused entirely by the production pipeline.
With that last point, none of these issues can be fixed very quickly/at all.
 

Gengar84

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I suppose to be fair, a lot of the issues people have had with the past two generations are structural:
  • Dexit: Despite Gamefreak straight up lying about why they did this, it was going to be necessary at some point, so whether they were ripping the band-aid off or just literally couldn't swing it, it couldn't be helped.
  • Pokémon Scarlet/Violet being a glitchy mess: Due to not having done so before, Gamefreak has no idea how to optimize a fully 3D game, and are learning it themselves while also trying to go fast.
    • Ugly assets like the trees are a symptom of this issue.
  • Unfinished/over-saturation of games: This is caused entirely by the production pipeline.
With that last point, none of these issues can be fixed very quickly/at all.
Yeah, that’s why I feel like they should break the series up and give them to different development studios like they did back then. GameFreak can just focus on the one mainline game every four or so years. Another studio could create the Legends series like how Genis Sonority did with Colloseum and XD. They can outsource the remakes and remasters and another could make the Stadium games like they used to do with Hal and Genius Sonority. That way, GameFreak wouldn’t have to include as many Pokemon in the main games and focus more on the world, story and new Pokemon. It also would t hurt for them to hire people that actually know what they’re doing.
 
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fogbadge

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Yeah this is the thing. A lot of people don't realize it but Game Freak is very, very conscious of fan reception. If the complete backpedaling they did around Black and White when it didn't have past Pokémon available in the main story wasn't indicative of that, then the leaked memo notes from the tera leak absolutely is.

You can see conscious efforts being made each time to specifically target the biggest issues from the last generation.
I'm curious, what did this memo say? for future reference
 

ninjahmos

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OK, hypothetical question…

If Melee was the first Smash game instead of 64, do you think it would have third-party characters, like Sonic or Cloud?
 

Gengar84

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OK, hypothetical question…

If Melee was the first Smash game instead of 64, do you think it would have third-party characters, like Sonic or Cloud?
I don’t think so. Melee was released so close to 64 that I doubt the core decisions on the roster would have changed all that much. That’s a shame because I think the timing was the best to potentially get some of my most wanted RARE characters since I believe they were still partially owned by Nintendo during Melee.
 
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Opossum

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I'm curious, what did this memo say? for future reference
It wasn't one specific instance, but multiple instances of taking feedback into account. Not even just the games either; there were a LOT of talks about what to do with the anime after different major moments.
 

Wonder Smash

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OK, hypothetical question…

If Melee was the first Smash game instead of 64, do you think it would have third-party characters, like Sonic or Cloud?
I don't think so. I think it'll still be Nintendo characters only. And I really don't think Cloud have even been considered during that.
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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OK, hypothetical question…

If Melee was the first Smash game instead of 64, do you think it would have third-party characters, like Sonic or Cloud?
Nothing would change.

If anything, Melee would've probably had less content since Nintendo wouldn't have grown some trust on the idea with 64's success.
 
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fogbadge

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It wasn't one specific instance, but multiple instances of taking feedback into account. Not even just the games either; there were a LOT of talks about what to do with the anime after different major moments.
interesting. thanks
 

Gengar84

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Do you think there’s any particular third party characters that might be more likely now that they have increased relevance during the time the next Smash’s roster would have been selected? The large majority of my most wanted characters haven’t had anything particularly interesting going on for the last few years. The one character on my list who has is Jinx but I’m not sure the likelihood of a pc focused western character. Battletoads got a reboot in 2020 but I’m not sure if that’s too old by now to have a big impact. We just got a new Contra game recently so that never hurts even if it wasn’t exactly mainstream. I could see Shadow the Hedgehog being particularly relevant around the time the game might get revealed.
 
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Pupp135

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OK, hypothetical question…

If Melee was the first Smash game instead of 64, do you think it would have third-party characters, like Sonic or Cloud?
This would probably not happen given that Sakurai never reached out to a third party company before Melee, and Kojima and Sega probably would have made a request too late in the development cycle.
 
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