Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[ninjahmos]

It'll probably never happen, but I kind of want Beat from Jet Set Radio to join Smash just so I can hear Hideki Naganuma's music in Smash.

 

[BuckleyTim]

Hideki doesn't want anything to do with Sega anymore. It's reportedly the reason why Right There, Ride On never returned after Brawl.

 

[SPEN18]

I'd rather not have another Gen 1 Pokemon because we already have more than half of the Pokemon roster consisting of Gen 1 Pokemon (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Mewtwo, compared to the others being Pichu, Lucario, Greninja, and Incineroar).

Cross-series balance is a fair concern, though note also that Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Mewtwo have all been cut before, and Jiggs very nearly cut. But even without cuts, some of the gen 1 Pokes are just so iconic and well-known amongst all categories of fans that it's not too hard to justify a bit of a skew that way.

Eevee, as I've said, could be argued as a kind of secondary mascot type, and its evolutions' debuts span multiple generations. Someone like Gengar would be a slightly deeper cut into the gen 1 pool, but if Gengar were picked I'd assume it'd be a case of specifically going for a fan-favorite choice, with Gengar being a longstanding holder of one of the top 10 or so spots of most popular mons ever.

 

[Guynamednelson]

It'd be cool if we got a playable Pokémon from every generation. Currently it's 3, 5, 8 and 9 that are unrepresented. If we get two Pokémon newcomers at the same time, it'd be nice if we got one from the most recent Gen and then a popular one from an unrepresented older Gen.

I say this as a big Gen 5 fan.

I don't even care about "repping all the gens" anymore so much as wanting a Pokemon newcomer to cater to my tastes in creatures from the franchise.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Cross-series balance is a fair concern, though note also that Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Mewtwo have all been cut before, and Jiggs very nearly cut. But even without cuts, some of the gen 1 Pokes are just so iconic and well-known amongst all categories of fans that it's not too hard to justify a bit of a skew that way.

I get that the 6 Gen 1 mons we have are iconic and justified so I'm okay with some skew, I just don't want the skew to get even worse when Pichu leaves alongside a lot of people thinking Incineroar is in danger.

Basically, if I lose my hypeman wrestler for more Gen 1 "favoritism" (especially in the form of Eevee, because I personally feel like without massive creative liberties that basically make Eevee a Digimon or using Partner Eevee's elemental attacks that don't exist outside of Let's Go, Eevee would be very basic and kinda boring), I'm gonna be really ticked off lmao

 

[Guynamednelson]

I just don't want the skew to get even worse when Pichu leaves alongside a lot of people thinking Incineroar is in danger.

Well it's not going to in that case, the mons people think are on the chopping block INCLUDE half of those Gen 1 mons.

Maybe even more since Mewtwo has been cut before

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Well it's not going to in that case, the mons people think are on the chopping block INCLUDE half of those Gen 1 mons.

Maybe even more since Mewtwo has been cut before

I mean I get that but like Pikachu's not going anywhere, Jigglypuff has been close but has outprioritized characters like Mewtwo twice so I think she just starts late since she's easier to make (like "we're getting kinda far into development, so we have to start working on Jigglypuff pretty soon"), and considering there are no 3DS limitations anymore, I'm expecting Trainer back rather than Solozard, so really the only one I think MIGHT be at risk is Mewtwo lol

 

[Guynamednelson]

and considering there are no 3DS limitations anymore

No, but there are concerns like how many assets they will want to remake. Part of the reason EIH happened was that the Switch was close enough to the Wii U to warrant tweaking Smash 4's models rather than building new ones from the ground up, but the Switch was successful enough that its successor should be powerful enough to warrant making new fighter models except in cases where they reused 30k poly ones from Switch games.

Also, if we got rid of that "gen 1 bias", the Pokemon reps would still be repetitive for different reasons. At least the gen 1 bias results in them actually having different body shapes.

 

[Shinuto]

Blame the fandom for always trying to connect specifically to the previous addition(s).

Zoroark was "the most likely" because of being a promotional movie star.
Sceptile was "the most likely" because and happened and we needed a Grass Starter to complete the set to coincide with upcoming Gen 3 remakes.
Decidueye was "the most likely" for a similar reason; we needed a Grass Starter and the Rowlet line was "the popular pick" like .
Rillaboom started to be "the most likely" for the same reason back when it was an unknown "Grookey Final Evo", but then Cinderace drowned that out and became "the most likely" because and were "shilled Starters" just like Cinderace was.

So naturally we have that same exact trap being fallen into with Meowscarada. Because Greninja and Incineroar happened, it's "the most likely" because it's a "popular and shilled Starter" that happens to be the Grass one.


EDIT: And again, I'm not trying to say Meowscarada doesn't have a chance. The point is that it's not the only one that does, and people being laser focused on it for superfluous reasons has a very high chance to backfire like it had done before several times over.

Tinkaton deserves it by breaking the mold (ha mold breaker) and being popular on it's own merits

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

No, but there are concerns like how many assets they will want to remake. Part of the reason EIH happened was that the Switch was close enough to the Wii U to warrant tweaking Smash 4's models rather than building new ones from the ground up, but the Switch was successful enough that its successor should be powerful enough to warrant making new fighter models except in cases where they reused 30k poly ones from Switch games.

Also, if we got rid of that "gen 1 bias", the Pokemon reps would still be repetitive for different reasons. At least the gen 1 bias results in them actually having different body shapes.

It does depend on how many assets they want to remake, but Charizard is definitely coming back one way or another and Trainer is the original intention of the character, so I have no reason to believe the full concept wouldn't come back again on a more powerful system with a very large budget, potentially even more than Ultimate since it was the third highest selling game on the Switch and the highest selling fighting game of all time, not even mentioning the assistance Bandai Namco could give in streamlining the process with assets and manpower since there's a dedicated studio for this now. It's not like any of the Pokemon designs have drastically changed; Charizard might get a slight update to look more like his model in SV, but that's really about it for design alterations minus any universal art style shifts.

I also have no idea why you're telling me this point about Gen 1 bias as if I'm clamoring for the eradication of every Gen 1 Pokemon on the roster, I just think Eevee would be boring as **** and Mewtwo might be at risk for a third time lmao

 

[Guynamednelson]

as if I'm clamoring for the eradication of every Gen 1 Pokemon on the roster

I know you're not, I'm just saying there would be a different kind of repetition among the Pokemon reps if we got rid of most of them.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Charizard might get a slight update to look more like his model in SV, but that's really about it for design alterations minus any universal art style shifts.

Come to think of it, I don't think I actually looked at a ScaVio Charizard up close. Did they give it some detailed scales like they did Seviper?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I say this as a big Gen 5 fan.

I don't even care about "repping all the gens" anymore so much as wanting a Pokemon newcomer to cater to my tastes in creatures from the franchise.

I get that. My two most wanted Pokémon both happen to be from Gen 8, and other than being from an unrepresented generation, I always liked their designs and I think they'd have unique gameplay. Meanwhile, there are some other Pokémon I like more than them but don't support for Smash because I don't think they'd work as well. Every generation still has at least a couple Pokémon that would be cool in Smash, which is why I try to look at the franchise as a whole.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Come to think of it, I don't think I actually looked at a ScaVio Charizard up close. Did they give it some detailed scales like they did Seviper?

Not really? It's really slight, but I do like the vibe it gives off more. Not really sure how to quantify the changes, but here's the model comparison I can find.

Spoiler: Big image

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Not really? It's really slight, but I do like the vibe it gives off more. Not really sure how to quantify the changes, but here's the model comparison I can find.

Spoiler: Big image

I can at least see a more sculpted face if that makes sense.

But yeah, I see what you mean in it being hard to explain the changes while having a better "vibe".

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I can at least see a more sculpted face if that makes sense.

But yeah, I see what you mean in it being hard to explain the changes while having a better "vibe".

Yeah, I can see that, that makes sense.

My best way that I can describe it is that SV Charizard feels more "angular" I guess? Like the more sculpted face with the nose and the jawline, his arms are a bit thinner to make his elbows a little more pronounced, his knees are more pointed, the big yellow spot on the stomach looks a bit smaller. It makes him look thinner and more angular and I really like the new model.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

So how do you guys think it’s going to be the graphical improvements on the next smash game? If the switch 2 supposedly is meant to be as powerful as like a PS4 pro or slightly stronger then I think there is a good chance for the next smash game to look quite impressive.

Really curious how battlefield and Final destination are gonna look in the next smash game with the new graphics engine. And also maybe Fountain of dreams if it comes back again. I can barely imagine that stage looking better than it already does lol.

 

[Zerp]

I gotta say I disagree with the consensus leaning towards Eevee probably not using evolutions as a mechanic if added. That's like the whole point of the character and the Eeveelutions are all among the most popular Pokémon individually too. I get that it'd be a lot of work, but we literally have a character who's a three-in-one already. And Pokémon Trainer's mons have no reason to share attacks to cut down on work. Meanwhile the Eeveelutions have a similar enough body that you could make them all echoes of each other (not Eevee obviously) and trim development time. No reason they couldn't just share normals + animations for those and then just have different specials and stat attributes.

I refuse to believe they'd add Eevee the bland way and not like, let you evolve into your choice of say Jolteon, Vaporeon, Sylveon, etc in a match. Smash isn't perfect at representing characters but Eevee without evolving would be the most grossly misrepresented character in the roster by far. Like, at that point why even go with Eevee over Mew, Clefairy, Gengar, a current gen mon, etc? I think we'd either get Eevee with the evolutions or it just wouldn't happen at all.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I gotta say I disagree with the consensus leaning towards Eevee probably not using evolutions as a mechanic if added. That's like the whole point of the character and the Eeveelutions are all among the most popular Pokémon individually too. I get that it'd be a lot of work, but we literally have a character who's a three-in-one already. And Pokémon Trainer's mons have no reason to share attacks to cut down on work. Meanwhile the Eeveelutions have a similar enough body that you could make them all echoes of each other (not Eevee obviously) and trim development time. No reason they couldn't just share normals + animations for those and then just have different specials and stat attributes.

I refuse to believe they'd add Eevee the bland way and not like, let you evolve into your choice of say Jolteon, Vaporeon, Sylveon, etc in a match. Smash isn't perfect at representing characters but Eevee without evolving would be the most grossly misrepresented character in the roster by far. Like, at that point why even go with Eevee over Mew, Clefairy, Gengar, a current gen mon, etc? I think we'd either get Eevee with the evolutions or it just wouldn't happen at all.

So it wouldn't happen at all, then.

Regardless of whether or not they "share normals" or using only one evolution per match, that's still nine effing characters that have to be designed, balanced, and bug tested.

Completely unreasonable of a concept.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think Eevee can have a perfectly fun moveset just using the unique moves from his starting role from Let's Go Eevee!!

I mean, just imagine using Baddy Bad on your enemies. Fun stuff.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I think Eevee can have a perfectly fun moveset just using the unique moves from his starting role from Let's Go Eevee!!

I mean, just imagine using Baddy Bad on your enemies. Fun stuff.

If Eevee must be added, this is probably the best way to go about it.


That being said, probably just update the Poké Ball summon to allow Eevee to evolve into one of its evolutions and do a different attack, and you got everything covered.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think Eevee can have a perfectly fun moveset just using the unique moves from his starting role from Let's Go Eevee!!

I mean, just imagine using Baddy Bad on your enemies. Fun stuff.

I've always thought that in the event they use the Partner Eevee moves, they should only use the ones that cover the types it can evolve into

...without considering that besides Veevee Volley that covers all of its exclusive moves.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I've always thought that in the event they use the Partner Eevee moves, they should only use the ones that cover the types it can evolve into
View attachment 396238
...without considering that besides Veevee Volley that covers all of its exclusive moves.

Bouncy Bubble Up B writes itself.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I gotta say I disagree with the consensus leaning towards Eevee probably not using evolutions as a mechanic if added. That's like the whole point of the character and the Eeveelutions are all among the most popular Pokémon individually too. I get that it'd be a lot of work, but we literally have a character who's a three-in-one already. And Pokémon Trainer's mons have no reason to share attacks to cut down on work. Meanwhile the Eeveelutions have a similar enough body that you could make them all echoes of each other (not Eevee obviously) and trim development time. No reason they couldn't just share normals + animations for those and then just have different specials and stat attributes.

I refuse to believe they'd add Eevee the bland way and not like, let you evolve into your choice of say Jolteon, Vaporeon, Sylveon, etc in a match. Smash isn't perfect at representing characters but Eevee without evolving would be the most grossly misrepresented character in the roster by far. Like, at that point why even go with Eevee over Mew, Clefairy, Gengar, a current gen mon, etc? I think we'd either get Eevee with the evolutions or it just wouldn't happen at all.

When people keep telling me resources being limited means Trainer might not come back in full and characters like Incineroar, Puff, and Mewtwo might be at risk, if I saw this actually happen, I'd be genuinely kind of annoyed I think lol

Like using those resources to put NINE characters together in one character slot when they could've been used to bring back any Pokemon characters that get cut and maybe some other characters too because nine characters is a LOT of work regardless of if they share normals (which I don't know how you'd do that without standardizing Pokemon like Vaporeon and Sylveon who have unique physical features compared to the others).

I feel like all I would think if that actually happened is "damn, imagine how many unique newcomers we could've gotten if they didn't add nine characters in one slot" lmao

 

[Zerp]

So it wouldn't happen at all, then.

Regardless of whether or not they "share normals" or using only one evolution per match, that's still nine effing characters

Oh I don't think they'd ever go with all nine evolutions, nor was I trying to imply that. Seriously, that would be lunacy even with how much cloning you could do with them, I'd expect three. Only reason I didn't say "Vaporeon, Jolteon and Flareon" specifically is because I'd unironically expect them to axe Flareon for a more popular one. Not even saying that as a bias thing, Flareon's my second favorite of the bunch but it polls noticeably worse than Espeon, Umbreon and Sylveon.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I gotta say I disagree with the consensus leaning towards Eevee probably not using evolutions as a mechanic if added. That's like the whole point of the character and the Eeveelutions are all among the most popular Pokémon individually too. I get that it'd be a lot of work, but we literally have a character who's a three-in-one already. And Pokémon Trainer's mons have no reason to share attacks to cut down on work. Meanwhile the Eeveelutions have a similar enough body that you could make them all echoes of each other (not Eevee obviously) and trim development time. No reason they couldn't just share normals + animations for those and then just have different specials and stat attributes.

I refuse to believe they'd add Eevee the bland way and not like, let you evolve into your choice of say Jolteon, Vaporeon, Sylveon, etc in a match. Smash isn't perfect at representing characters but Eevee without evolving would be the most grossly misrepresented character in the roster by far. Like, at that point why even go with Eevee over Mew, Clefairy, Gengar, a current gen mon, etc? I think we'd either get Eevee with the evolutions or it just wouldn't happen at all.

Look at it this way.

Even with the normal animations kept around, they would still been to be balanced a lot to properly fit each form since the unique specials would still lead to unique playstyles. Not to mention the specials themselves often being the most important part of a character since we've seen the devs be no strangers to the idea of reusing normals if needed (Hero getting a lot of Link's stuff comes to mind)

And with Smash historically never going above 15 newcomers for base game, that means Eevee with how you want to see it would on their own take well over half the possible slots, leaving very little for everything else. And if it's for DLC, that's more content than any Fighter Pass...

Using only the Gen 1 trio is a little better since it's only four characters... but that's still a lot more work than just "oh, keep the same normals, it'll be fine"

Eevee with an Eeveelution mechanic is fun to speculate about but the sheer amount of work required to pull it off and the amount of resources required sounds far too much to be worth the investment.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Oh I don't think they'd ever go with all nine evolutions, nor was I trying to imply that. Seriously, that would be lunacy even with how much cloning you could do with them, I'd expect three. Only reason I didn't say "Vaporeon, Jolteon and Flareon" specifically is because I'd unironically expect them to axe Flareon for a more popular one. Not even saying that as a bias thing, Flareon's my second favorite of the bunch but it polls noticeably worse than Espeon, Umbreon and Sylveon.

I mean even if you just use Eevee and its Gen 1 evolutions, that still means Pokemon Trainer and Eevee alone are like 7 characters lol

Would still rather use those resources for a Gen 9 Pokemon and like at least part of another unique newcomer over Eevee.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Eevee with an Eeveelution mechanic is fun to speculate about

Not when you have to deal with people being hyperfocused on its debut game over all its other merits

 

[Gengar84]

I think the best way to do Eevee is to base its moveset of of Let’s Go Eevee. In that game, it had a different unique elemental attack referencing each of its evolutions. You could have a spectral version of each corresponding Eeveelution behind Eevee as it performs those attacks. The Final Smash could be Eevee’s Z move, Max Eevoboost. That way, you’re representing all the Eeveelutions without needing some hugely complicated transform character.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

Quick update, they've added the F-Zero X ost to Nintendo Music. Weird selection so far post launch:

• Mario Wonder
• DKC2
• Wii Sports
• F-Zero X

Nice to see a previously unrepresented series added.

 

[Ivander]

Quick update, they've added the F-Zero X ost to Nintendo Music. Weird selection so far post launch:

• Mario Wonder
• DKC2
• Wii Sports
• F-Zero X

Nice to see a previously unrepresented series added.

Well interestingly so far, each title has been from a different console, starting with Switch, then SNES, then Wii, then N64. NES, Gameboy, GBA, GameCube and NDS haven't gotten a new soundtrack yet. And who knows when Wii U and 3DS will be added, especially when some titles, they can choose the Switch version over the Wii U version like Mario Kart 8.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

Well interestingly so far, each title has been from a different console, starting with Switch, then SNES, then Wii, then N64. NES, Gameboy, GBA, GameCube and NDS haven't gotten a new soundtrack yet. And who knows when Wii U and 3DS will be added, especially when some titles, they can choose the Switch version over the Wii U version like Mario Kart 8.

For Mario Kart it makes sense since it includes all the switch tracks as well, so it really is the Mario Kart 8 deluxe soundtrack specifically. BOTW is a different matter however, I think if they can mention the switch they will (especially over the wii u).

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Quick update, they've added the F-Zero X ost to Nintendo Music. Weird selection so far post launch:

• Mario Wonder
• DKC2
• Wii Sports
• F-Zero X

Nice to see a previously unrepresented series added.

The streak continues, so definitely feels like this app is gonna update every Monday night. The only one that hasn't so far is Mario Wonder.

 

[Zerp]

When people keep telling me resources being limited means Trainer might not come back in full and characters like Incineroar, Puff, and Mewtwo might be at risk, if I saw this actually happen, I'd be genuinely kind of annoyed I think lol

Same actually, I wouldn't even be kind of annoyed, I'd be outright mad at it lol. If we got a reboot type thing and then suddenly one character has like three times the work as everyone else, yeeeaaahhh that'd be infuriating.
Unless it's something I'm super biased for in which case they can waste all the dev time in the world to make it happen lol

standardizing Pokemon like Vaporeon and Sylveon who have unique physical features compared to the others

They totally could standardize most things but yeah not literally everything. Like, it'd be fine for Sylveon and Jolteon to both swipe forward with their foreleg for a jab, but them sharing a grab would make no sense. Because, you know, Sylveon would almost certainly use the feelers and Jolteon uh, doesn't have those lol.

Using only the Gen 1 trio is a little better since it's only four characters... but that's still a lot more work than just "oh, keep the same normals, it'll be fine"

Eevee with an Eeveelution mechanic is fun to speculate about but the sheer amount of work required to pull it off and the amount of resources required sounds far too much to be worth the investment.

I mean, I actually completely agree that it's not worth the investment but I'm also not ruling it* out as a thing they could do. I think you're all (very reasonably) misinterpreting me as thinking this'd be easy or not that hard. I should've clarified this a bit better but when I'm bringing up that PT exists I'm not doing so as a "That was easy they can do it again ez pz" thing. I'm bringing it up because quite frankly PT in Brawl was absolutely INSANE and it shows they're willing to implement absurdly hard things regardless of how much resources it takes sometimes. Like, PT in Brawl wasn't even just three normal characters like people think. It's three completely unique characters + a unique type mechanic + ANOTHER unique mechanic in the form of stamina. That's a ridiculous amount of work to bugtest and design, yet it still happened regardless. I really think the most likely outcome is just that we won't get Eevee at all. But like, I wouldn't put it past them to spend literally three characters-worth of devtime on "one" character after PT and Steve if they reaaaallllyyy wanted to for whatever reason. Should also note that I don't think it'd be a good idea for them to do it lol.

*The "Nintendo goes with any three of the evolutions" version I originally intended. All of them at once is like genuinely the most impossible sounding thing ever. Literally everything you said about it earlier is 100% true it'd be like a fighters pass 3 + 4 all on it's own lmao

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I just hope the next Pokémon isn’t another “cool” final evolution humanoid, I’m happy with the ones we have gotten, but Pokémon has too many interesting weirdos to continue down this path. I would especially like to see some types unrepresented in the roster.

We don’t have a single character on the roster that can manipulate earth, a ground/rock type can cover that, a ghost type could have a tricky moveset that specializes in playing mind games with your opponent, a lot of bugs types would be interesting based on their body type alone.

I would love it if the next “surprise” character is a weirdo Pokémon almost no one is asking for.

Quick update, they've added the F-Zero X ost to Nintendo Music. Weird selection so far post launch:

• Mario Wonder
• DKC2
• Wii Sports
• F-Zero X

Nice to see a previously unrepresented series added.

They didn’t add the expansion kit music, so that means no F-Zero Rainbow Road remix.

Big L on Nintendo’s part.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

I just hope the next Pokémon isn’t another “cool” final evolution humanoid, I’m happy with the ones we have gotten, but Pokémon has too many interesting weirdos to continue down this path. I would especially like to see some types unrepresented in the roster.

We don’t have a single character on the roster that can manipulate earth, a ground/rock type can cover that, a ghost type could have a tricky moveset that specializes in playing mind games with your opponent, a lot of bugs types would be interesting based on their body type alone.

I would love it if the next “surprise” character is a weirdo Pokémon almost no one is asking for.



They didn’t add the expansion kit music, so that means no F-Zero Rainbow Road remix.

Big L on Nintendo’s part.

I'm curious if that would be in the japanese release? I'd assume not since we got tomodachi collection worldwide.

 

[Guynamednelson]

They didn’t add the expansion kit music, so that means no F-Zero Rainbow Road remix.
Big L on Nintendo’s part.

Nintendo refusing to acknowledge the expansion is a big L in general, they don't even need to translate any of the menus to localize it for English speakers.

Not that any former JP-exclusive games actually get translated on NSO besides translations that already existed like Mother 1.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Pokémon in general is extremely difficult to judge: is safe because duh. is safe because its easy to make and has been here forever. is gone. R.I.P. is kinda safe because it always makes the base roster project plan, but kinda not because it keeps being so low priority that it doesn't actually make the base roster. is safe because he's the series protagonist, and they only went Solozard because they couldn't do switching on the 3Ds. is safe because it's extremely popular, and has yet to miss a game as a result. is safe because its also super popular, and reps some of the newer gens. is kinda safe because it has become a staple in the competitive scene, and kinda not because everyone else hates him. Problem found: I've convinced myself that too many characters have good odds.

How about newcomers? Where are they coming from? Probably Pokémon Scarlet/Violet. Who are they picking? Well precedence says a starter, but circumstances are different, so it could be just about anything. The only thing I think it can't be is Koraidon/Miraidon since they'd have to add both, and they can't Echo each other because their body plans are too different.

 

[Laniv]

is kinda safe because it has become a staple in the competitive scene, and kinda not because everyone else hates him.

I appreciate your optimism towards incineroar

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Problem found: I've convinced myself that too many characters have good odds.

This is the issue I have with like every character in Ultimate except for like Pichu and Young Link (sorry guys, but you were missing for 17 years for a reason) lol

Every character pretty much has something going for them that makes me like "oooh, i dunno, i could see them sticking around".