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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Megadoomer

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Here's an interesting question
What Ultimate Mii Costume characters do y'all think have a good shot of getting the upgrade?
I feel like one of the characters that was included with Kazuya's Mii was has a good shot, since they were singled out as being popular characters who they weren't able to include this time. (unless I'm misremembering what was said)

Not sure about Lloyd (since that could have just as easily been the result of him being the last returning Mii costume and being from the same company as Kazuya), but Shantae, the Dragonborn, or Dante seem plausible, at least.

Maybe Doomguy or Octoling; I'm not sure if they fall into the same category. (since they were seemingly made into Mii costumes at the last possible minute - it could have been for similar reasons as Kazuya's wave, or it could have been because they were easy Mii costumes to include on such a short notice)
 
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Gengar84

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That might be just me but I wouldn't be surprised if we see Akira as a playable character in the case Smash keeps checking the list of prominent classic Japanese fighting games.
Akira would be cool to see eventually but I’d like to see Nightmare or Sol Badguy get in for new Japanese Fighting game IP reps first. I really want Fulgore and Sub-Zero as well but they’re western.
 

GilTheGreat19

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Akira would be cool to see eventually but I’d like to see Nightmare or Sol Badguy get in for new Japanese Fighting game IP reps first. I really want Fulgore and Sub-Zero as well but they’re western.
Yea I was gonna say, I feel like there aren't a lot of prominent Japanese fighting games left I can think of that can get playable character representation
Virtua Fighter, Guilty Gear, IDK if we count KOF or not given Terry

But yea, going the Western route, you easily get Mortal Kombat and Killer Instinct
 
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NonSpecificGuy

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I feel like one of the characters that was included with Kazuya's Mii was has a good shot, since they were singled out as being popular characters who they weren't able to include this time. (unless I'm misremembering what was said)

Not sure about Lloyd (since that could have just as easily been the result of him being the last returning Mii costume and being from the same company as Kazuya), but Shantae, the Dragonborn, or Dante seem plausible, at least.

Maybe Doomguy or Octoling; I'm not sure if they fall into the same category. (since they were seemingly made into Mii costumes at the last possible minute - it could have been for similar reasons as Kazuya's wave, or it could have been because they were easy Mii costumes to include on such a short notice)
Most of the new Mii costumes added in Ultimate were made with the knowledge that these characters were popular but without enough time to develop fully we’re created as Mii characters. It seems like the K. Rool costume in Smash For was a similar case and maybe more that I’m forgetting.

Unfortunately Hayabusa didn’t even get a Mii so that worries me but at least Doom Slayer did.
 

Ivander

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Here's an interesting question
What Ultimate Mii Costume characters do y'all think have a good shot of getting the upgrade?
Dante, Shantae and Dragonborn seem likely considering Sakurai said they were highly requested. The same would go for Lloyd, but with Tales of Arise doing very well and the Tales of games still not getting a rep, it's hard to tell which character they will choose to be the first Tales of rep.

Sans is also another likely possibility, considering how very popular his Mii Costume was. And Monster Hunter is always a possibility with Monster Hunter's popularity with Nintendo fans and in general. If they somehow keep the FFVII train going with characters, Tifa would be pretty likely too.
 

Yamat08

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You clearly aren't a tournament player, because otherwise you'd know tournaments don't utilize BF/FD forms and stick to the default BF/FD.
Any particular reason why? That seems like it kind of defeats the point of adding those forms in the first place if they still aren’t going to get played. Not that I’ll ever complain about more options.
It's probably easier to indicate you are definitely playing on BF or FD if your cursor goes to the real BF/FD.
I think it was also because the Final Destination forms of different stages have slight gameplay variations, namely with the upper blast zone being lower or higher depending. Though it's a wonder why such differences were even programmed if all these stages were meant to function identically in terms of gameplay.

Whatever the case, I think it really just further shows that competitive Smash-players can never be satisfied and they only want the game to be as sterilized as possible. I'm just glad the roster's as remarkably balanced as it is, as I'm sure they would've gladly chucked away those 80+ characters just to once again have Fox and Falco with a little bit of Shiek and Marth if they had the chance.
 

ZeldaFan01

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Iori Yagami.

I think FF/KOF is actually reasonably likely to get another rep. Iori is the fan favorite and Sakurai at least likes him.
Alvis chatting w/ :4shulk:.! "Thatt is to be expected. Itt is a... happy truth but-"
 

Guynamednelson

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I think it was also because the Final Destination forms of different stages have slight gameplay variations, namely with the upper blast zone being lower or higher depending. Though it's a wonder why such differences were even programmed if all these stages were meant to function identically in terms of gameplay.
Ultimate made sure they're homogenous. Garreg Mach Monastery temporarily had different blastzones but that was a mistake that was quickly fixed.

And no, competitive players don't want the game to be sterile, they just want depth out of the game even if it started out being unintentional. After all, there are many, many cases of gameplay mechanics starting out as glitches:

(ironically, I think Sakurai's fear of Smash only being played competitively applies now more than it did in 2005, since casuals now only care about gawking at a super huge roster than actually playing the game the roster is for)
 
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Gengar84

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I feel like one of the characters that was included with Kazuya's Mii was has a good shot, since they were singled out as being popular characters who they weren't able to include this time. (unless I'm misremembering what was said)

Not sure about Lloyd (since that could have just as easily been the result of him being the last returning Mii costume and being from the same company as Kazuya), but Shantae, the Dragonborn, or Dante seem plausible, at least.

Maybe Doomguy or Octoling; I'm not sure if they fall into the same category. (since they were seemingly made into Mii costumes at the last possible minute - it could have been for similar reasons as Kazuya's wave, or it could have been because they were easy Mii costumes to include on such a short notice)
Alright, I’m going to change my vote. I forgot about Octoling being a Mii costume. I think a second Splatoon character is as close to a sure thing as you can get at this point with how successful that series has become and Octoling makes perfect sense for an easy echo or semiclone.
 

GilTheGreat19

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Most of the new Mii costumes added in Ultimate were made with the knowledge that these characters were popular but without enough time to develop fully we’re created as Mii characters. It seems like the K. Rool costume in Smash For was a similar case and maybe more that I’m forgetting.

Unfortunately Hayabusa didn’t even get a Mii so that worries me but at least Doom Slayer did.
This makes me wonder..
Did Nintendo kinda rush to get Ultimate out ASAP? If so, they could've delayed release to get some extra characters and content in the game, and heck, some of the DLC character we got could've been base game (best example is PP since Sakurai himself said they needed some extra time on him, in which said time frame included a month and a half post-release).

Also, regarding Dragonborn and Doomguy, I'm curious to see which of the two we will get first. If Dragonborn was indeed a more popular request by Ballot demands, and then if we assume Sakurai has noticed how popular of a request Doomguy's become during Ultimate DLC Speculation, things could go either way.
 

Guynamednelson

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Did Nintendo kinda rush to get Ultimate out ASAP?
Not exactly. The game was in development for almost three years, longer than any previous Smash game, and had to compromise on newcomers and side content for the base game because they didn't have unlimited money or manpower either.
 

Yamat08

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Most of the new Mii costumes added in Ultimate were made with the knowledge that these characters were popular but without enough time to develop fully we’re created as Mii characters. It seems like the K. Rool costume in Smash For was a similar case and maybe more that I’m forgetting.

Unfortunately Hayabusa didn’t even get a Mii so that worries me but at least Doom Slayer did.
But remember, none of the 3rd party Miis from Smash4 got an upgrade to a playable character. Until we see otherwise, I'd take it more as a sign that, if anything, characters that became Miis squandered their chance at being a true character. Of course, this is by no means set in stone, and I expect it could be subject to change as early as the next Smash (especially given how many popular characters have been made into Miis by this point). But still, if Terry and Steve can make it in despite not having a single hint of their games' content in Smash4, or if Kazuya can get the playable position over Heihachi, then you probably don't need to worry about Hayabusa that much.

Not exactly. The game was in development for almost three years, longer than any previous Smash game, and had to compromise on newcomers and side content for the base game because they didn't have unlimited money or manpower either.
Longer than any previous Smash game? I'd say that Smash4's development (started early 2012, released late 2014) and Brawl's development (started somewhere in 2005 and possibly earlier, released early 2008) also fall into the realm of almost three years. I guess you could factor in DLC, but otherwise, the only one you could really make a case for is Melee (which is infamous for being rushed) and maybe the original N64 title.
 

GilTheGreat19

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Not exactly. The game was in development for almost three years, longer than any previous Smash game, and had to compromise on newcomers and side content for the base game because they didn't have unlimited money or manpower either.
That sort of makes sense.
Sakurai has said from time to time they have a limited budget after all.
Nintendo can't give them too much because they have other projects to spend money on
 

Guynamednelson

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Longer than any previous Smash game?
Yes, yes it is.

4 started development in Spring 2012 and its 3DS version released in Japan in the first half of September, with copies being leaked a week before that, so it wouldn't even be two and a half years. Brawl started development in October 2005 and was released in Japan in January 2008, so again, not even 2 and a half years.
 

Wonder Smash

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Here's an interesting question
What Ultimate Mii Costume characters do y'all think have a good shot of getting the upgrade?
Bomberman definitely has a chance. As a Mii costume, not only does he have alternate colors but Sakurai also gave people an idea of how he would play if he was a regular character.

Dante is another possibility since Sakurai said that he was highly requested.

Doom Slayer has a good shot (no pun intended) at getting the upgrade too. Sakurai has twice mentioned DOOM's impact on video games and id Software seemed to work well with Nintendo even before they were bought by Microsoft.


I just completed the survey myself. I didn’t vote for my number one most wanted because he has literally 0% chance (Zegram Ghart from Rogue Galaxy) and I felt like I’d just be throwing my vote away. I voted for three that are still unlikely but at least have some tiny chance.

1) Rash/Pimple/Zitz (Battletoads)
2) Magus (Chrono Trigger)
3) Illidan Stormrage (WarCraft)

View attachment 347118
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View attachment 347120

It’s really hard to narrow my list down to just three characters since there are so many characters I’d love to see. Sadly, as you can probably tell from above, most of my favorites aren’t particularly likely.
That's kind of why I don't want to have too many MWs. In fact, I want to be done with them completely. No matter how much sense they make, there's always a good chance that they won't make it in, which can really be heartbreaking.

Simon Belmont was originally my last MW and after he was finally in Ultimate, I thought I was done with that. But the idea of Ryu Hayabusa being in Smash was just too good to ignore and finally, I just decided that he would be my last MW. Of course, that didn't last long either because eventually the same thing happened with Billy and Jimmy Lee and Doom Slayer. But I think I MIGHT be done after them. There's a good chance that Bill and Lance could be next but as of right now, Hayabusa, the Double Dragons, and Doom Slayer are truly my three MW characters for Smash. Hopefully, I'll be done after them.
 
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Yamat08

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Earlier in the thread, I was talking about the possibility of all Nintendo consoles from here on out featuring backwards compatibility, something that consoles in general may wanna consider given the viability of PC gaming and its vast library of games. The announcement of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Cowabunga Collection made me remember that the Switch has been getting a LOT of classic game collections, as well as a pretty massive catalogue of indie titles which (for a console, at least) is very ambitious. I also remember a few years back, a lot of people were even joking about everything coming to the Switch.

I dunno, just feels like all the more reason to keep this train going, rather than abandoning it all just as soon as the next console comes around. Plus, with digital store fronts becoming more standardized, it seems like there's really no reason not to keep backwards compatibility around anymore (in fact, I'd argue that Nintendo was trying to keep things backwards compatible with the Wii to WiiU, but the gimmicky hardware and the abandonment of optical discs made that difficult to maintain.... which is a better excuse than Sony has, at least). Though, if the Switch really does turn out to be Nintendo's future, I just hope they can bring back Virtual Console (or Nintendo Classics Collections, I'd buy those).
 

Guynamednelson

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Though, if the Switch really does turn out to be Nintendo's future
There's never going to be one single system that lasts forever and ever. Just because the Wii and DS were equally huge didn't mean Nintendo and its partners wanted to stay on that dated hardware forever, and the same would be true with the Switch. In fact it's probably going to be even worse with the Switch because its hardware is more dated than the Wii's was in 2009.
 

Yamat08

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Let me rephrase that: "if backwards compatibility with the Switch really does turn out to be Nintendo's future".
 

NonSpecificGuy

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Yeah backwards compatibility has quickly become a hot topic since the PS4 was avid about not having it and Nintendo is always changing their software distribution. Xbox is the closest thing we have to a legacy console at this point with most of the 360 games and a lot of classic Xbox games being BC, and upgraded in some cases, all the way up to Series X 4 generations later.

Even then, since the drive itself isn’t natively BC, specific Classics like Jet Set Radio Future are forever locked onto an older system because of unforeseen issues. Game preservation is a big problem and people are starting to realize it.
 

dream1ng

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Getting a sea of internet votes from people that don't even buy Smash is pretty counterproductive too.
This isn't an official ballot promoted in a Direct, it's a poll on Sourcegaming in 2022. I think you overestimate how far-reaching this thing will proliferate.

Though even on that highly circulated ballot, we still wound up with characters like Sora, Banjo, Snake and K. Rool charting at or near the top. Which doesn't seem that bad to me.
 

PeridotGX

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Earlier in the thread, I was talking about the possibility of all Nintendo consoles from here on out featuring backwards compatibility, something that consoles in general may wanna consider given the viability of PC gaming and its vast library of games. The announcement of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Cowabunga Collection made me remember that the Switch has been getting a LOT of classic game collections, as well as a pretty massive catalogue of indie titles which (for a console, at least) is very ambitious. I also remember a few years back, a lot of people were even joking about everything coming to the Switch.

I dunno, just feels like all the more reason to keep this train going, rather than abandoning it all just as soon as the next console comes around. Plus, with digital store fronts becoming more standardized, it seems like there's really no reason not to keep backwards compatibility around anymore (in fact, I'd argue that Nintendo was trying to keep things backwards compatible with the Wii to WiiU, but the gimmicky hardware and the abandonment of optical discs made that difficult to maintain.... which is a better excuse than Sony has, at least). Though, if the Switch really does turn out to be Nintendo's future, I just hope they can bring back Virtual Console (or Nintendo Classics Collections, I'd buy those).
Knock on wood, but I would be shocked if the next Nintendo system wasn't backwards compatible. All of Nintendo's handhelds were backwards compatible, and every home console since the Wii was as well. The only reason the switch wasn't is because it's a single screen system that can't have a disc drive without ruining the form factor. There's no such excuse for the Switch 2.
 

Gengar84

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Bomberman definitely has a chance. As a Mii costume, not only does he have alternate colors but Sakurai also gave people an idea of how he would play if he was a regular character.

Dante is another possibility since Sakurai said that he was highly requested.

Doom Slayer has a good shot (no pun intended) at getting the upgrade too. Sakurai has twice mentioned DOOM's impact on video games and id Software seemed to work well with Nintendo even before they were bought by Microsoft.




That's kind of why I don't want to have too many MWs. In fact, I want to be done with them completely. No matter how much sense they make, there's always a good chance that they won't make it in, which can really be heartbreaking.

Simon Belmont was originally my last MW and after he was finally in Ultimate, I thought I was done with that. But the idea of Ryu Hayabusa being in Smash was just too good to ignore and finally, I just decided that he would be my last MW. Of course, that didn't last long either because eventually the same thing happened with Billy and Jimmy Lee and Doom Slayer. But I think I MIGHT be done after them. There's a good chance that Bill and Lance could be next but as of right now, Hayabusa, the Double Dragons, and Doom Slayer are truly my three MW characters for Smash. Hopefully, I'll be done after them.
I kind of see it the other day way around. There are so many characters I’d love to see that if I get even one of them, I’m happy. Out of the newcomers we got, I only actively wanted King K. Rool, Ridley, Joker, and Sephiroth but I still had fun with a lot more of them. I realize most of my favorites are long shots but that only makes things that much more exciting if any of them actually make it in. I’m not too heartbroken if they don’t make the cut since most were never likely to begin with.
 
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ZeldaFan01

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You know what no. While I do want my top 5 in cause it's been quite a while. I would love to see Decidui, Spring Man, & Ribbon Girl all playable in SSB6.
 

Yamat08

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I should probably also re-iterate, the reason I bring up the possibility of Switch backwards compatibility is because I think it'll play a huge role in how the next Smash turns out. See, if Smash Ultimate is playable on the next console (especially if a digital version makes becoming out of print a non-issue), then the next Smash really shouldn't be anything less than that. At that point, I expect their options really would boil down to going the Special Edition route, making a new Smash game that's a radical departure from all prior ones in terms of gameplay...... or even the distant possibility that there really isn't a new Smash game after this and the series died with Ultimate. Though I guess it's also possible that, backwards compatible or not, Nintendo would just de-list Ultimate from the digital store in order to make whatever this new Smash is seem more enticing by simple virtue of its easier accessibility (which would be a **** move on their part, but something I don't think they'd be above doing). And there's still the slim possibility that Nintendo would actually be dumb and/or ballsy enough to simply release what's effectively an inferior Ultimate, even when the actual Ultimate is right there.
 

dream1ng

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I should probably also re-iterate, the reason I bring up the possibility of Switch backwards compatibility is because I think it'll play a huge role in how the next Smash turns out. See, if Smash Ultimate is playable on the next console (especially if a digital version makes becoming out of print a non-issue), then the next Smash really shouldn't be anything less than that. At that point, I expect their options really would boil down to going the Special Edition route, making a new Smash game that's a radical departure from all prior ones in terms of gameplay...... or even the distant possibility that there really isn't a new Smash game after this and the series died with Ultimate. Though I guess it's also possible that, backwards compatible or not, Nintendo would just de-list Ultimate from the digital store in order to make whatever this new Smash is seem more enticing by simple virtue of its easier accessibility (which would be a **** move on their part, but something I don't think they'd be above doing). And there's still the slim possibility that Nintendo would actually be dumb and/or ballsy enough to simply release what's effectively an inferior Ultimate, even when the actual Ultimate is right there.
On the other hand, with backwards compatibility (which I assume the next system, or at least next major iteration, will have), there could be a much greater incentive to depart from the current untenable course of perpetual inflation given people have the option to simply play Ultimate on that system as well.

Without BC, I'd see a greater impetus to bring back all that you could. With BC, well, people can just play Ultimate to experience some of that stuff.
 

Guynamednelson

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I should probably also re-iterate, the reason I bring up the possibility of Switch backwards compatibility is because I think it'll play a huge role in how the next Smash turns out. See, if Smash Ultimate is playable on the next console (especially if a digital version makes becoming out of print a non-issue), then the next Smash really shouldn't be anything less than that. At that point, I expect their options really would boil down to going the Special Edition route, making a new Smash game that's a radical departure from all prior ones in terms of gameplay...... or even the distant possibility that there really isn't a new Smash game after this and the series died with Ultimate. Though I guess it's also possible that, backwards compatible or not, Nintendo would just de-list Ultimate from the digital store in order to make whatever this new Smash is seem more enticing by simple virtue of its easier accessibility (which would be a **** move on their part, but something I don't think they'd be above doing). And there's still the slim possibility that Nintendo would actually be dumb and/or ballsy enough to simply release what's effectively an inferior Ultimate, even when the actual Ultimate is right there.
On the other hand, with backwards compatibility (which I assume the next system, or at least next major iteration, will have), there could be a much greater incentive to depart from the current untenable course of perpetual inflation given people have the option to simply play Ultimate on that system as well.

Without BC, I'd see a greater impetus to bring back all that you could. With BC, well, people can just play Ultimate to experience some of that stuff.
Time to bring up MvC yet again.

The reason we got Marvel vs. Capcom 3 was because sales of 2 (the series' Everyone Is Here, nonetheless) on Xbox Live proved that MvC still had over a million fans. 3's roster still focused on using new resources to make new fighters, rather than just continuing to reuse the same dated sprites* so fans didn't have to worry about Mega Man being removed. This resulted in a smaller roster overall, but people mostly just cared about getting more MvC.

*This is more of an "ew Morrigan's sprites" thing than "ew sprites"
 
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Dinoman96

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Time to bring up MvC yet again.

The reason we got Marvel vs. Capcom 3 was because sales of 2 (the series' Everyone Is Here, nonetheless) on Xbox Live proved that MvC still had over a million fans. 3's roster still focused on using new resources to make new fighters, rather than just continuing to reuse the same dated sprites* so fans didn't have to worry about Mega Man being removed. This resulted in a smaller roster overall, but people mostly just cared about getting more MvC.

*This is more of an "ew Morrigan's sprites" thing than "ew sprites"
I'd argue that worked better because MVC2 was effectively just a giant ROM dump that was dominated by random filler X-men and Street Fighter characters. Like I don't think that many people miss the likes of Marrow or ****ing Bone Claws Wolverine.

(U)MVC3 in comparison was much more reflective of both companies with fan favorites like Dante, Zero, Thor, Ghost Rider, Dante, Spencer, Arthur, Phoenix Wright, Deadpool, Doctor Strange, etc, so I'd argue that's a big factor in why people were alright with the smaller roster.
 
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ZeldaFan01

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Hiii. Um, I made this old thing (2014-2016) on the fly. Ykw for me it looks a little sh***y as Colin Firth (Introspecktive) would tell me.
picmonkey_image.jpg

But yes, not only did I hack my SSBB (Homebrew Channel), I would also love to see some of these characters make an appearance in SSB6.
 

Wonder Smash

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I kind of see it the other day way around. There are so many characters I’d love to see that if I get even one of them, I’m happy. Out of the newcomers we got, I only actively wanted King K. Rool, Ridley, Joker, and Sephiroth but I still had fun with a lot more of them. I realize most of my favorites are long shots but that only makes things that much more exciting if any of them actually make it in. I’m not too heartbroken if they don’t make the cut since most were never likely to begin with.
Well, if they're characters that you don't expect to see in Smash or don't think is that likely, then yeah, it's not much of a heartbreak. I wasn't really upset that Billy and Jimmy Lee weren't in Ultimate because by that point, the River City Ransom spirit event already made it clear that there wasn't going to be an ASW character in the roster. Same with Doom Slayer after the Vault Boy costume was revealed, which is why I'm satisfied with Doom Slayer himself being a Mii costume.
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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I will say getting continued collections from Konami on Switch would be nice, if only for introducing younger fans to further old school content. I'm not saying this will create some instant demand for the likes of them to be in Smash or anything, but new players experiencing a few of the classics can be the kind of thing that could at least get some momentum for potential newer games some day. Contra Collection II and a mass allowance of the old Bomberman titles are long overdue, but even something like modern releases of Suikoden or a Rocket Knight Collection could find a solid audience.
 

Eldrake

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I just realized that SFV in particular has no content in base Ultimate whatsoever. Which is weird when you consider games like MGS V, Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces got some in form of a few Spirits and songs.
I've heard hearsay that Sony has co-ownership of SFV because they helped fund it, so if that's the case maybe that's the barrier?
 
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chocolatejr9

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I've heard hearsay that Sony has co-ownership of SFV because they helped fund it, so if that's the case maybe that's the barrier?
Well, there WERE rumors that Sony wanted to make Street Fighter the main fighting game series for Playstation, like how Smash is for Nintendo...
 

Sucumbio

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But then Tekken said Hiiii! (Not really just it's the fighter I personally associate with the PlayStation the most 😁)
 

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Battle Royal Dome
I don't keep up with the TCG, but is that second move 170 damage before your first KO of the game?

Back to Smash, Gardevoir is potentially a really strange case because the body type probably doesn't permit them to use resources from Mewtwo, but some of the moves could work similarly (to be clear, I don't think it would really work as a clone of Mewtwo).

But actually, despite how much I've talked about not overdoing clones and such, I do think there is a bit of untapped potential for clones in PKMN. Like, I could imagine Salamence with a pretty similar moveset to Zard, with Flamethrower, Fly, Double Edge in place of Flare Blitz, Zen Headbutt for Rock Smash, and several of the non-specials. The body type is not similar enough for a straight Echo, though. Or, in a similar vein, I could see Blaziken doing most of what Captain Falcon does (in fact a quick search shows that this is not an original idea).
This is something I've thought about for a while now, and funnily enough, Blaziken is who came to mind when thinking about it: movesets that are a bit more Frankenstein-esque are something the devs could possibly do. You could have Blaziken be a simple echo of Captain Falcon, or you could also steal moves from Charizard, Incineroar, and Ryu as well. As an example, Flare Blitz from Zard is a fitting side B, down tilt from Incin is already theorized to be Low Sweep, which Blaziken can also learn, Ryu's Shakunetsu could be modified to be Fire Blast or Focus Blast (they could simply exclude the special inputs from it and make it more of an averaged-out fireball), and either Ryu's Shoryuken (renamed to Sky Uppercut on Blaziken) or Incineroar's Cross Chop could work as up B. Zoroark comes to mind as another character who could be Frankenstein'd, with moves from Wolf, Lucario (though the moves would lack aura and be evened-out) and Mewtwo. I really like the prospect of characters being created this way, as it gives people who already liked to play the characters the new character is derived from, a sort of second version of their character who they might also like playing. And it would probably save the devs a good amount of work, while providing characters who have a lot of interesting differences rather than just a few like most echoes have.
 
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