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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Laniv

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Me, who is perfectly fine with Dixie Kong being an echo as long as she's not in a tag team with Diddy Kong please God no anything but that:

Honestly I think Lord Fredrik should be added as a K. Rool echo

What if Nintendo will give us the middle finger again and put Chunky Kong?
View attachment 394234View attachment 394235
Chunky Kong will be an Assist Trophy. Don't you remember him at Smash-Fest? :4pacman:
 

ScrubReborn

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IDK maybe it's just me but I wouldn't find Funky having his normal voice alongside the primal DK and Diddy to be a jarring clash. I know it was just text but even back in the Rare era he was talkin' while the other two did their lil animal noises. Besides, he's supposed to be the smart one of the group so they could just say Funky domesticated himself or something lol. I think it'd be more funny if anything.

--

I don't wanna get too deep in the clone **** but I'd be shocked if either Funky or Dixie weren't some form of clone. Maybe not full echos, but historically if two fighters from the same series have similar body shapes, they'll reuse as many assets as they can get away with. Sakurai's all about that efficiency, especially in the Ultimate era.
 
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AlRex

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I’m probably among the very few who’d like it if the fourth DK character was related to the series’ arcade roots. So Cranky does pull ahead for me, but it’d be funny if it was DK Jr. or Stanley Bugman or something.
 

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Sakurai really missed an opportunity to do something funny and add Chunky as an Assist in Ultimate doing the exact thing he was claimed to do at Smash Fest.
Especially since the Tingle AT wasn't in Ultimate, so his slamming the ground and showering the stage in bananas could essentially replicate Tingle's old ability to make the stage slippery and force players to trip constantly lol

Maybe throw a few Banana Guns in there too for the chaos of it all.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Sakurai really missed an opportunity to do something funny and add Chunky as an Assist in Ultimate doing the exact thing he was claimed to do at Smash Fest.
"I saw Chunky Kong at Smashfest" should be referenced somehow.
 
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GoldenYuiitusin

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Especially since the Tingle AT wasn't in Ultimate, so his slamming the ground and showering the stage in bananas could essentially replicate Tingle's old ability to make the stage slippery and force players to trip constantly lol

Maybe throw a few Banana Guns in there too for the chaos of it all.


He more than makes up for his shortcomings in his satanic nature.
 
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superprincess

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Ignoring the rest because I don't feel like arguing the same bull**** over and over, so I'll just address this specifically.

The whole "DIXIE HAS A FIFTH LIMB" thing is laughable.
Do you know who else has a fifth limb?
Diddy.

View attachment 394243




His tail is a fifth limb. The only thing "special" about Dixie is that her limb is on the back of her head instead of her ass.

And lookie here, there's an example of someone with a fifth limb on their model but barely using it (and even LESS in Ultimate). Guess we got some bad game design right here!



Honestly, the more the subject of Dixie comes up and how people are quick to overhype how special she is and downplay anyone else, the more I grow to legit despise her.
You don't seem to understand what I said. Or maybe I worded it poorly.

Dixie's ponytail is a very notable part of her design. It clashes with her color scheme and stands out. It's a big yellow shape attached to her head.


You thought you ate with the little tail comparison but that's not nearly the same. It doesn't define his silhouette.

Diddy's tail in comparison is... thin and brown. Like the rest of his body. Doesn't stand out nearly as much. It's almost not perceivable from afar. Dixie's hair is always gonna show on her model.

Also, idk why you mention you "despise" Dixie because I don't like her at all either and I can admit she can't be a mere echo.

Funky can, like Daisy and Dark Samus before him. And that's okay!
 

Swamp Sensei

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Honestly, the thread has convinced me that Funky isn't a good echo choice for DK, at least not without heavy reworking. Imagining Funky hunched over like DK is... Bizarre. I never sat and thought just how out of character DK's moveset is for Funky. Funky being animalistic is incredibly strange. Sure he rolls and jumps like DK, but Giant Punch, and Headbutt? Nah.

(Actually Funky giving absolutely everything to attack with headbutt sounds hilarious. Give him that YEEOW!)

Like, Dark Samus doing Samus things works, because they're mirrors. Ken and Richter and self explanatory for very different reasons. Dark Pit has Pit's exact animations in Uprising Multiplayer. Lucina idealizes Marth and would love to learn from him. Chrom did get some reworking to be more Chrom-like. I guess the only one where it doesn't really fit is Daisy and it's widely accepted that she should be more different.

Yeah, I don't like the idea of a Funky echo anymore. Y'all sold me.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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You don't seem to understand what I said. Or maybe I worded it poorly.

Dixie's ponytail is a very notable part of her design. It clashes with her color scheme and stands out. It's a big yellow shape attached to her head.


You thought you ate with the little tail comparison but that's not nearly the same. It doesn't define his silhouette.

Diddy's tail in comparison is... thin and brown. Like the rest of his body. Doesn't stand out nearly as much. It's almost not perceivable from afar. Dixie's hair is always gonna show on her model.

Also, idk why you mention you "despise" Dixie because I don't like her at all either and I can admit she can't be a mere echo.

Funky can, like Daisy and Dark Samus before him. And that's okay!
Yeah but like, it's still hair. A player isn't going to automatically assume it's prehensile. You'd definitely have to pay attention to it's animation because it needs to compliment them, but it doesn't inherently need to do anything in particular. Honestly if I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that Banjo & Kazzoie not being good at boxing despite Banjo being built like a 4x4 feels weirder than something like this would. It also wouldn't be that difficult to show off its functionality as an easter egg if that's all that could be afforded as an Echo Fighter, particularly in her animations for grabbing opponents and holding heavy items, as these animations wouldn't affect functionality all that much. The big question is whether or not the requirement of new hair animations disqualifies her, and I think it's a bit to big of an edge case to answer since it's an addition rather than a change in proportion.

As for the hatred, it's because Funky Kong is always vehemently suggested as an Echo Fighter (which they don't believe is possible), and evidence as to how he could be unique is entirely ignored. The reverse is also true with Dixie Kong; She has to be unique not because she has the potential to be so, but because hair bones.

Personally, I think it's potentially possible for both of them to be Echo Fighters, but at present I think that Dixie Kong could get in as a unique character/semi-clone, while Funky Kong can only get in as an Echo Fighter.

Sure he rolls and jumps like DK, but Giant Punch, and Headbutt? Nah.

(Actually Funky giving absolutely everything to attack with headbutt sounds hilarious. Give him that YEEOW!)
I'd also say that Giant Punch is generic enough to fit on most characters that punch. Beyond that though, you could change the animation slightly to have him overzealously throw out the Hang 10 hand sign.
 
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NintenRob

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I'm gonna be honest...

Neither Dixie Kong or Funky Kong really excite me. I like both of them well enough. I think both have lots of merits. If I had to choose I'd go with Funky because he's funny.

But eh.... I'd just like their inclusion. They wouldn't excite me a ton like a lot of other characters.
I kinda agree with this, except I'd prefer Dixie.


Generally speaking, I moreso think Dixie should be playable rather than actively wanting her. But I do wonder since DK got really good things in Ultimate (K Rool, some really good remixes, KlapTrap) if they'll dial it back next game in favour of other franchises
 

Guynamednelson

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All this echo talk has me wondering... If Luigi wasn't playable yet, do you think people would have the same conversations about him that we're having now about Dixie?
It'd probably be worse since Luigi definitely has different body proportions than Mario on top of "but what about the Poltergust?"
 

Swamp Sensei

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All this echo talk has me wondering... If Luigi wasn't playable yet, do you think people would have the same conversations about him that we're having now about Dixie?
If people have any slightly reasonable excuse to pin someone as an echo, they'll do it.

Because that leaves more room for REAL characters like MY personal favorites (not yours, yours would totally be echoes).
 
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NintenRob

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On the topic of Funky Echo, I actually think it'd be fine. He doesn't have to be hunched over though. They have the same proportions in Mario Kart Wii, but Funky stands on two legs there while DK is hunched over. Echoes don't need to have the same stance.

I mean Dark Samus floats!
 

Swamp Sensei

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On the topic of Funky Echo, I actually think it'd be fine. He doesn't have to be hunched over though. They have the same proportions in Mario Kart Wii, but Funky stands on two legs there while DK is hunched over. Echoes don't need to have the same stance.

I mean Dark Samus floats!
I dunno. I think standing upright would mean the skeleton would have to be super different. Echoes all use the same skeleton. Funky standing upright with DK's skeleton with be enormous. You'd have to redo proportions and at that point you'd have an Isabelle situation.
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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All this echo talk has me wondering... If Luigi wasn't playable yet, do you think people would have the same conversations about him that we're having now about Dixie?
Without a doubt if somehow Luigi wasn't in the game by now, people would be heavily arguing in favor of him being an Echo due to his similarities to Mario. He's lucky he'd been in the series since the beginning in that regard.
 

Laniv

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Okay, this conversation is making gears in my head turn, and I'm probably just rambling at this point, but I have noticed some other things:

1. All echoes so far have made their non-Smash debut after their parent character (ie Dark Samus debuting after Samus)

2. All echoes so far are from the same series as their parent character (Peach and Daisy, Simon and Richter)

Do you think we'll ever see a break from these patterns? (I'm hesitant to call these hard and fast rules)
 

SharkLord

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Funky Kong can be an echo fighter. His stance literally does not matter, as you can see below, because his height difference with Donkey Kong isn't that big, despite him standing upright:
View attachment 394240View attachment 394241
The comparison isn't perfect, as I don't own the game and got the screenshots from YouTube—but you can still see that the height difference is still very slight.

As for other animations, Funky Kong jumps, runs, rolls, climbs, swims, etc. just like DK does. Meaning he can fight just like DK does, with the different facial expressions and voice clips carrying the spirit of Funky Kong.

The "he would use the surfboard!" argument is very reminiscent of the "B-but Daisy can't float, she has a double jump!" argument that Daisy fans used to justify her being unique. The truth is, characters can miss out on unique abilities if it means that they can be squeezed in as echoes. We've seen that time and time again.

Now, I don't think Dixie's chances of getting in are particularly good, but if she were to get in, she'd have to be at least somewhat distinct. And that includes changes that would veer her far off from echo territory. Sorry, that's just the truth. She technically has a fifth limb, her not using it while having it on her character model would be bad game design.

What's worse game design is Dixie's voice but I digress lol

PS. This is coming from someone who enjoys Funky and doesn't like Dixie at all, so... no bias here xoxo
Oh okay so I was right, he was basically just "DK but better" in Tropical Freeze. So the idea of Funky being an Echo has some ground, going off his only (I think?) playable role in a platformer.

With Dixie, I feel like the ponytail is less game design, and more that she just. Wouldn't fit Diddy's model anymore. I'm pretty sure all Echoes share their base character's skeleton and general proportions (Though I'll have to check), and what's essentially a limb attatched to a different part of her body would not synch up very well.
 

Laniv

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Ken debuted in SF1, he was how the game handled 2-player fights.
Oh whoops, forgot about him lol.

To refine my question, do you think we'll ever get an echo who debuted before their parent character (like how people were tossing around Ninten as a Ness echo), or cross-series echoes?
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Ya know...Every conversation we have about Echo Fighters makes me think less of them. IIRC, they did fully redeem the concept of clones in most people's eyes, as the only clones people are upset about nowadays are the Link and Toon Link because there are three variations and these two in particular could fairly easily have been pushed more, Ganondorf because he's seen as a terrible fit for his role, and the Echo Fighters not named Ken. At the very least, nobody seems to be campaigning to categorically remove them from the roster.

However, almost every single time a character is suggested as an Echo Fighter is is met with disdain, and as stated before Ken is the only one people don't dislike the interpretation of (though Chrom and Lucina do pass the vibe check depending on who you ask and I feel like people just don't think about Richter in general). Some people don't even consider Ken to be an Echo Fighter due to the fact that he seems to have had a little extra attention put into him. This part, I think, reveals a dichotomy in perceptions of what an Echo Fighter is: Are they a glorified skin (:ultdarksamus::ultdaisy::ultdarkpit::ultrichter:) or are they "X fighter, but with a twist" (:ultlucina::ultchrom::ultken:)?

I think the main deal is unless you're suggesting a glorified skin of a character design like Dry Bowser or Gooigi, nobody wants the former, but it's what a lot of people picture when you make a suggestion for one. And because just how many changes are allowed is nebulous, it's difficult to convince people that they could be the latter, and depending on the character maybe even that's not enough for them, in which case you're at an impasse.

I would like to see how they're handled in the next game, and what people think about them. If we get a whole bunch more Daisies rather than Kens I might just start being anti-echo for the most part.
 

superprincess

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If people have any slightly reasonable excuse to pin someone as an echo, they'll do it.

Because that leaves more room for REAL characters like MY personal favorites (not yours, yours would totally be echoes).
This is a generalization. I will say that some people tend to overextend the limits of the echo label, but it's not always mal-intentioned. I know it ain't mal-intentioned on my part, because all my favorites are in the game already. They could add anyone and I wouldn't care because I've got my girlies.

Also, I've been on the receiving end of the "Your MW is just gonna be a clone!" crowd (with Daisy) and my advice would be to keep an open mind instead of getting defensive because the people that may seem like detractors might actually be right.

I dunno. I think standing upright would mean the skeleton would have to be super different. Echoes all use the same skeleton. Funky standing upright with DK's skeleton with be enormous. You'd have to redo proportions and at that point you'd have an Isabelle situation.
I already showcased why that doesn't matter. Funky doesn't stand tall, he stands on two legs but still hunched over. Funky and DK's heights while in their idle stances are almost the same in Tropical Freeze. He can fit. Don't use the idle as an argument.
With Dixie, I feel like the ponytail is less game design, and more that she just. Wouldn't fit Diddy's model anymore. I'm pretty sure all Echoes share their base character's skeleton and general proportions (Though I'll have to check), and what's essentially a limb attatched to a different part of her body would not synch up very well.
This is kinda false. Peach has much longer hair than Daisy but the skeleton works just fine. They just removed the bones below the shoulders for Daisy, and that's that.

Theoretically they could just add bones to Dixie's ponytail where Diddy doesn't have them. But the visual language of the character would be off. It'd be like if Mewtwo didn't use its tail, or if Ridley didn't use his wings.
 

SharkLord

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I think it's worth reiterating that Ultimate's newcomers were extremely few thanks to big veteran focus. I'd imagine that played a role in the Echo Fighter brand; Get some crowd-pleasing characters in with relatively little work compared to a full fighter. I wonder if next game might have more distinct Echo Fighters, assuming they're not having to cram in every single veteran
 

ninjahmos

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All this Echo talk has me thinking…

I wouldn't mind Black Shadow having a different moveset from Captain Falcon's moveset, but if they made him an Echo or semi-clone of Falcon, they should at least give him the Ken or Luigi treatment.

Oh, and I still think they should add in some more music from F-Zero X and GX/AX if he ever gets in.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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If people have any slightly reasonable excuse to pin someone as an echo, they'll do it.

Because that leaves more room for REAL characters like MY personal favorites (not yours, yours would totally be echoes).
My thinking is more: I would like them, they would not get added in as a full character, they could potentially work as an Echo Fighter, so therefore they should be an Echo Fighter.

Okay, this conversation is making gears in my head turn, and I'm probably just rambling at this point, but I have noticed some other things:

1. All echoes so far have made their non-Smash debut after their parent character (ie Dark Samus debuting after Samus)

2. All echoes so far are from the same series as their parent character (Peach and Daisy, Simon and Richter)

Do you think we'll ever see a break from these patterns? (I'm hesitant to call these hard and fast rules)
Keeping in mind that I generally only entertain the X fighter with a twist idea of Echo Fighters:
  • Blaziken over Captain Falcon works surprisingly well, and while I don't love the mods that implement it as a skin, I do see the potential for it as an Echo Fighter.
  • I think Gardivoir could work similarly well over :zelda:, but not :ultzelda:, and it'd need a new down special, so I wouldn't hold my breath on that.
  • I think Birdo would work as an Echo Fighter of Yoshi.
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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I guess the only one where it doesn't really fit is Daisy and it's widely accepted that she should be more different.
Outside of the Toad Guard, this actually is a more retroactive thing.

When Ultimate's roster was decided, Daisy's ONLY platformer outing was her debut in Super Mario Land....as the stand in for Peach as the damsel in distress.

Super Mario Run hadn't been out yet, let alone with Daisy's inclusion to actively give her unique attributes such having no float but an extra jump. And if Wonder was out before she was added in Smash as well, I'd definitely be arguing in favor of her taking from that while Peach keeps her style from SMB2 since that alone would make them distinct. But alas, what's done is done now. But maybe her float could be swapped out for an extra midair jump next Smash.

And in a majority of the spin-offs, Daisy doesn't actually do much that's different from Peach. Sure, she has more spunk in her animations, but there's no reason to assume she wouldn't have the same attributes and abilities in Smash when the times she has something different can be counted on one hand.
Except again Toad Guard for example which doesn't fit her at all since she's not part of the Mushroom Kingdom. But that could easily be worked around with a denizen of Sarasaland like a Pompom Flower that spits pollen like Toad's spores.

Daisy actually works fine for an Echo, especially in the timeframe where her only mainline outing was as a replacement for Peach.
The main problem is that she's near 1:1 to the point she's pointless as her own character, the only gameplay differences being slight hurtbox differences when standing still or running, which....doesn't mean much in retrospect with how a Peach/Daisy player is going to use the character.
Like even giving her the Flower Bomber custom Side Special for Peach in Smash For would've made it better. Or even keeping the Turnip difference that was patched to be exactly like Peach in an update.
 

Laniv

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Daisy actually works fine for an Echo, especially in the timeframe where her only mainline outing was as a replacement for Peach.
The main problem is that she's near 1:1 to the point she's pointless as her own character, the only gameplay differences being slight hurtbox differences when standing still or running, which....doesn't mean much in retrospect with how a Peach/Daisy player is going to use the character.
Like even giving her the Flower Bomber custom Side Special for Peach in Smash For would've made it better. Or even keeping the Turnip difference that was patched to be exactly like Peach in an update.
Oh don't even get me started on the custom moves. Those would have been perfect for Daisy, or Lakitu, or whoever could have been a Mega Man echo
 

DarthEnderX

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That's probably the biggest thing that irritates me about all this.
It's pointed out dozens of times how Funky has his surfboard as a major tool for his potential moveset with the variety of ways it can function, and it's shut down as not even worth considering....."but Dixie has a ponytail, guys! She can do so many things with it that makes her so unique and special and not even possible to be like Diddy in any conceivable way!"

I'm sick of the double standards and hypocrisy.
Let me put your mind at ease then.

They should both be Echoes.
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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Oh don't even get me started on the custom moves. Those would have been perfect for Daisy, or Lakitu, or whoever could have been a Mega Man echo
The only thing I can imagine happened here is a tragic auto-correct accident while typing Lucina. If it's not that, I'm at a loss lol
 

Laniv

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Lakitu as a Mega Man Echo?
I suppose I walked into that one lol. No, I should have said Lakitu as a Bowser Jr. echo

Sakurai saw that Ganondorf was a popular character despite being a clone of a character from a difference franchise.

He thought lightning could strike twice.
Somehow, it made more sense than his initial pitch of adding King K. Rool as a Jigglypuff clone.
 

GoldenYuiitusin

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Sakurai saw that Ganondorf was a popular character despite being a clone of a character from a difference franchise.

He thought lightning could strike twice.
Super Fighting Turtle.
La-Ki-Tu!

I suppose I walked into that one lol. No, I should have said Lakitu as a Bowser Jr. echo
That was more me not reading correctly. Still, the image is now there.
 
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