Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[CannonStreak]

So, let me ask ya all something...

Whoever comes back in the next Smash Bros. as playables, who do you all want to see as starter characters AND who do you want to see be in the game as secret, unlockable characters?

 

[Opossum]

So, let me ask ya all something...

Whoever comes back in the next Smash Bros. as playables, who do you all want to see as starter characters AND who do you want to see be in the game as secret, unlockable characters?

Ideally, every character would be a starter. Ultimate burned any remaining good will I had left for the concept of unlockable characters, and it's also far easier for things like tournaments if everyone is just there from the start. Unlocking for specifically a single player mode like Subspace or World of Light? That's fine. But for the rest of the game, I say it's time to put the concept to rest.

 

[BritishGuy54]

So, let me ask ya all something...

Whoever comes back in the next Smash Bros. as playables, who do you all want to see as starter characters AND who do you want to see be in the game as secret, unlockable characters?

Starters:

Mario	Peach	Bowser	Paper Mario	Yoshi	Wario	Donkey Kong	Diddy Kong	Link	Zelda
Impa	Samus	Kirby	Meta Knight	King Dedede	Fox	Marth	Robin	Byleth	Alear?
Olimar	Villager	Tom Nook	Shulk	Noah	Pikachu	Charizard	Greninja	Meowscarada?	Inkling
	Min Min	Ring Fit Trainee	Sonic	Ryu	Pac-Man	Mii Brawler	Mii Sword	Mii Gunner

Unlockables:

Luigi	Daisy	Rosalina	Bowser Jr.	Funky Kong	Mr. Game & Watch	R.O.B.
Ganondorf	Toon Link	Dark Samus	Ridley	Bandana Dee	Falco	Pit
Ike	Lucina	Isabelle	Alvis	Pyra & Mythra	Little Mac	Jigglypuff
Mewtwo	Lucario	Octoling	DJ Octavio	Ness	Captain Falcon	Ice Climbers

Isaac

Dr. Eggman

Chun-Li

Mega Man

Terry

Kazuya

Rayman

 

[CannonStreak]

Ideally, every character would be a starter. Ultimate burned any remaining good will I had left for the concept of unlockable characters, and it's also far easier for things like tournaments if everyone is just there from the start. Unlocking for specifically a single player mode like Subspace or World of Light? That's fine. But for the rest of the game, I say it's time to put the concept to rest.

I know what you mean. I mean, I still like unlockable characters, BUT I think it was not handled well in Ultimate, and was kind of a pain that may have worn out the idea, if you know what I mean.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Basically every character that was on Ultimate will be cut, leaving a new generation to fill the gaps.

Then they'll realize that was a bad idea so they'll throw in Marth and Captain Falcon.

 

[SharkLord]

So, let me ask ya all something...

Whoever comes back in the next Smash Bros. as playables, who do you all want to see as starter characters AND who do you want to see be in the game as secret, unlockable characters?

More than Ultimate's starters, at least. Preferably with a more consistent way of getting rematches. I'm fine with unlockable content, but Ultimate took a while and getting rematches was up to chance

 

[dream1ng]

I really like the concept of unlockable characters when done in an interesting fashion like, imo, the first three Smash games. Each having a specific unique condition, ideally somewhat tied to the character themselves like unlocking Luigi via the timer having a 2, or a thematically relevant event match. I miss the challenge of working towards the tougher unlockable characters, the excitement of their screen popping up, and the reward of finally getting them.

Ultimate's felt hollow and perfunctory - and by nature of the quantity, lost the more individualized conditions. Sort of like target test. When that was a thing. Though it was cool what they did with Sephiroth, even though they, understandably, didn't fully commit to it.

Personally, I would not be mad if Smash brought the old style back.

However, I agree that I don't think it's where the genre is anymore, and though I enjoy it, I think for what Smash is, who its audience is, and what people play the game for, having the characters available at the start is more worthwhile.

Perhaps there could be some sort of middle-ground, where maybe all the original characters could be available from the start, but the clones/echoes need to be unlocked. They are somewhat, in effect, "bonus" characters, and that way the underlying moveset (and more recognizable character) is available from the jump.

But in absence of that, keeping some stages locked is something. I think there'd be far less pushback to that. And of course, the mountain of collectibles which just seem intrinsic to Sakurai's design style will always leave those who enjoy the pursuit of unlocking things plenty to chew on, including at the highest difficulties no characters should be partitioned behind.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Then they'll realize that was a bad idea so they'll throw in Marth and Captain Falcon.

I would say the Ryu and Ken of that "New Generation" Smash are obviously Mario and Link.

 

[Perkilator]

Ideally, I think the super obvious newcomers should be among the starting roster and the more "out-there" newcomers should be among the unlockable characters.

 

[CannonStreak]

Starters:

Mario	Peach	Bowser	Paper Mario	Yoshi	Wario	Donkey Kong	Diddy Kong	Link	Zelda
Impa	Samus	Kirby	Meta Knight	King Dedede	Fox	Marth	Robin	Byleth	Alear?
Olimar	Villager	Tom Nook	Shulk	Noah	Pikachu	Charizard	Greninja	Meowscarada?	Inkling
	Min Min	Ring Fit Trainee	Sonic	Ryu	Pac-Man	Mii Brawler	Mii Sword	Mii Gunner

Unlockables:

Luigi	Daisy	Rosalina	Bowser Jr.	Funky Kong	Mr. Game & Watch	R.O.B.
Ganondorf	Toon Link	Dark Samus	Ridley	Bandana Dee	Falco	Pit
Ike	Lucina	Isabelle	Alvis	Pyra & Mythra	Little Mac	Jigglypuff
Mewtwo	Lucario	Octoling	DJ Octavio	Ness	Captain Falcon	Ice Climbers

Isaac

Dr. Eggman

Chun-Li

Mega Man

Terry

Kazuya

Rayman

You had to remove King K. Rool, huh? (Don't take it personally though, I still respect your opinion)

Oddly, though, I would put Ridley as an unlockable myself.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I would say the Ryu and Ken of that "New Generation" Smash are obviously Mario and Link.

Drat. I was trying to remember if the two were in New Generation, or if they were added in Third Strike.

So yeah, probably Mario, Link, and Kirby.

 

[SPEN18]

So, let me ask ya all something...

Whoever comes back in the next Smash Bros. as playables, who do you all want to see as starter characters AND who do you want to see be in the game as secret, unlockable characters?

Without going into too much detail, and generally speaking, I think the most obvious additions should be starter characters (you know, characters where nobody doubts that they'd be in the game), whereas secret characters should be reserved for characters whose presence in the game would actually, you know, be a secret to the blind player. Although there could be some exceptions to this; you still need the starting roster to have a good balance of characters from the gameplay and franchise breadth perspectives, and there should probably be at least a few newcomers and something third party in there. Maybe it's a little difficult to answer this in full detail without knowing the full roster.

 

[SharkLord]

I think the faces of the games active during the Switch era would be pretty safe bets for a starting roster. I'd also throw in a couple less relevant characters who are still mainstays in Smash.

1. Mario
2. Luigi (Technically still a Mario character, but headed his own spinoff)
3. Peach (Ditto)
4. Donkey Kong (DKC isn't as prominent this generation, but he still shows up enough to stay relevant)
5. Yoshi
6. Wario
7. Villager
8. Link
9. Pikachu
10. Olimar
11. Inkling
12. Kirby
13. Samus
14. Marth
15. Shulk
16. Min Min
17. Fox
18. Ness
19. Captain Falcon
20. Miis

It's a little tricky to balance, because at this point a 50-60 character roster is a genuinely feasible situation even without Ultimate DX, so we have to take into account a lot more fighters that would need to be unlocked compared to the earlier titles. I'd advocate for adding in an extra 10-ish fighters for the base roster, just so you don't have to slog through too many unlockables just to get the full roster; probably a couple notable supporting characters or new faces, maybe a couple third parties. But of course, we don't know what that roster looks like yet, so it's hard to say exactly who it would be after that

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Unlockables kinda just don't make sense in the modern era since everyone knows who's in the game before launch either by game trailers or the inevitable leaks about a month before. And even if it doesn't leak, you've still got people getting everyone the second it comes out and showing everybody.

 

[dream1ng]

Let me also say with Smash being a lightning rod for leakers, but more importantly, with the promotional cache characters are, it seems unlikely they'd all choose to leave any newcomers unrevealed pre-release. Maybe some echoes, or the token "surprise" character... but we're at a point they have such high value in driving engagement versus very little value remaining hidden, that not knowing, at the very least, all the new original characters in base pre-release give or take the wtf choice seems quite unlikely to me. Though that doesn't preclude still having to unlock them.

The landscape has just changed since the days the game would launch with a handful of unrevealed additions, and Nintendo is very aware of how useful the characters are in terms of promotion.

Now, veterans, who don't have quite the same cache, might be a different story. Though promotionally they're still much more useful as reveals than remaining hidden, so I wouldn't imagine more than a small handful not being revealed pre-launch, if any.

 

[CannonStreak]

Unlockables kinda just don't make sense in the modern era since everyone knows who's in the game before launch either by game trailers or the inevitable leaks about a month before. And even if it doesn't leak, you've still got people getting everyone the second it comes out and showing everybody.

I see what you mean. Still, if they do unlockables again, let us just hope it is not done by that kid who was the offspring of an ESRB guy, even though it was the ESRB guy's responsibility with the kid to not let that happen, but hey...

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Have unlockables, but allow a "tournament mode" code that temporarily unlocks all fighters and stages for as long as the game is running.

Much like how the Shadow Mewtwo card worked for the Wii U version of Pokken (for Shadow Mewtwo specifically; still had to unlock regular Mewtwo and the other things manually).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, I want unlockable characters. I didn't mind the way it was done in Ultimate, but that was a lot and it shouldn't be nearly as much in other games. It's a special situation, and the only annoying part was... the enemy A.I. being buffed up enough that it was quite easily possible to not get said character. I think they even nerfed the A.I. too in an update. XD

I would love to classic codes too used.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Let me also say with Smash being a lightning rod for leakers, but more importantly, with the promotional cache characters are, it seems unlikely they'd all choose to leave any newcomers unrevealed pre-release. Maybe some echoes, or the token "surprise" character... but we're at a point they have such high value in driving engagement versus very little value remaining hidden, that not knowing, at the very least, all the new original characters in base pre-release give or take the wtf choice seems quite unlikely to me. Though that doesn't preclude still having to unlock them.

The landscape has just changed since the days the game would launch with a handful of unrevealed additions, and Nintendo is very aware of how useful the characters are in terms of promotion.

Now, veterans, who don't have quite the same cache, might be a different story. Though promotionally they're still much more useful as reveals than remaining hidden, so I wouldn't imagine more than a small handful not being revealed pre-launch, if any.

I agree with this sentiment, and I feel like Nintendo might as well, because I'm pretty sure even Smash 4 only left like Bowser Jr., Dark Pit, and Duck Hunt hidden until after launch if I remember right, at least in terms of newcomers. It's a big boon for their engagement for sure, ever since they started doing the big trailer business for Smash reveals.

 

[ScrubReborn]

However, I agree that I don't think it's where the genre is anymore, and though I enjoy it, I think for what Smash is, who its audience is, and what people play the game for, having the characters available at the start is more worthwhile.

While I actually (maybe too optimistically) predict Smash 6 returning to a more Brawl-ish way of handling unlocks, or at least not going to 4 or Ultimate's extremes, it is true that times have changed since Melee and Brawl, and ideally, that should be factored in 6's development in some way. That being said, I don't think we'll ever have all characters from the start as long as Sakurai's directing, I think he values the concept of unlockable fighters too much for that.

Personally, the middle ground I'd advocate for is introducing a separate submode for tourney organizers/casuals with everyone temporarily available from the start whereas the unlockables stay hidden everywhere else in the game. I dunno how feasible this is but its prolly the fairest concession.

It's a little tricky to balance, because at this point a 50-60 character roster is a genuinely feasible situation even without Ultimate DX, so we have to take into account a lot more fighters that would need to be unlocked compared to the earlier titles. I'd advocate for adding in an extra 10-ish fighters for the base roster, just so you don't have to slog through too many unlockables just to get the full roster.

Yeah we'd probably need more starters than that for a 50-60 roster. Ideally, I'd imagine the ratio would be about Brawl's or a little less (so about 65-70% of the cast being starters). So if there's 50-60, I think 33-40 or so would be good for a starting roster.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That being said, I don't think we'll ever have all characters from the start as long as Sakurai's directing, I think he values the concept of unlockable fighters too much for that.

This is probably true. Even for SSBWIIU he was like "Well I don't wanna make you have to unlock absolutely everyone again but...I mean, unlocks are fun right? Gotta have some of them at least."

It's no skin off my teeth either way, I just don't think it does much for the game.

 

[Laniv]

I say all third party characters (or at least third party newcomers) should be unlockable

 

[CannonStreak]

I say all third party characters (or at least third party newcomers) should be unlockable

Those happen to be my thoughts, as well. I kinda liked having Sonic from the start in Smash 4, if I recall correctly, but I'd rather they make him and other third party characters unlockable like in Brawl.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Have unlockables, but allow a "tournament mode" code that temporarily unlocks all fighters and stages for as long as the game is running.

Much like how the Shadow Mewtwo card worked for the Wii U version of Pokken (for Shadow Mewtwo specifically; still had to unlock regular Mewtwo and the other things manually).

And now I found a way to implement the Konami Code to Smash.

 

[SPEN18]

Not sure, but they may fear intimidating casuals by throwing 60+ characters in the player's face straightaway.

The other thing people underestimate is that, psychologically, a new player is likelier to keep playing if they're given a string of meaningful rewards over the first several hours of play, better yet if those rewards have tangible impact on the scope and depth of gameplay. Very little is more effective in that department than whole new characters becoming available to try out or play against.

It's more than just the marketing leading up to release. Secret/unlockable characters can still exist and function even if technically not secret. I mean Snake and Sonic were on the back of the Brawl box but still unlockable (and could potentially take a while to get if playing blind). The joy of unlocking is not wholly contained in simply finding out who is in the game; it's seeing the roster come together and the depth of gameplay and crossover increase before your eyes.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Whoever comes back in the next Smash Bros. as playables, who do you all want to see as starter characters AND who do you want to see be in the game as secret, unlockable characters?

In multiplayer modes, every character should be unlocked by default.

In the Story mode, I don't care if they start with 1 character and make you unlock all the rest through the mode.

 

[ScrubReborn]

While we're on the topic; Challenger's Approach was a godsend bruh. They gotta keep that around.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

While we're on the topic; Challenger's Approach was a godsend bruh. They gotta keep that around.

I legit forgot that was a thing.

Then again I don't remember losing any encounters (I did not have the game before the patch and also I could have just forgotten. lol)

 

[NintenRob]

I just hope we get more interesting unlock methods for characters. Make me earn them. It's a concerning trend in modern games that unlocking stuff is becoming less and less interesting (assuming there's anything to unlock to begin with)

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So, let's talk about Dragon Quest.

I don't think we need to argue it's merit or the fact that Nintendo wants it in the game.

But do you think the content will be easier to obtain in the future? How likely is Hero to return?

 

[Laniv]

So, let's talk about Dragon Quest.

I don't think we need to argue it's merit or the fact that Nintendo wants it in the game.

But do you think the content will be easier to obtain in the future? How likely is Hero to return?

The music, at least, will probably be easier to get.

God, I hope we get some more substantial non-fighter content. Who would make the best Assist Trophy and why would it be Sylvando

Also girl Erdrick and Sofia should be alts

 

[Noipoi]

So, let's talk about Dragon Quest.

I don't think we need to argue it's merit or the fact that Nintendo wants it in the game.

But do you think the content will be easier to obtain in the future? How likely is Hero to return?

Hero and Cloud will be the only SE characters who come back in the next game’s base roster. Bet.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

So, let's talk about Dragon Quest.

I don't think we need to argue it's merit or the fact that Nintendo wants it in the game.

But do you think the content will be easier to obtain in the future? How likely is Hero to return?

I think the music will definitely be easier to get (and possibly the orchestral versions too) since Dragon Quest's old composer was notorious about orchestral music not being suitable for something like video games, despite how the industry has changed.

I also feel like Hero is the most likely SE character to return since Dragon Quest has such a strong history on Nintendo hardware. It's not a prerequisite as much anymore, but Dragon Quest is definitely very entwined with Nintendo's history and it's very popular in Smash's home region (and I could see Square doing something goofy with Cloud like a veteran pack thing as DLC with Cloud, Sephiroth, and either their old stages or new ones lol).

 

[dream1ng]

So, let's talk about Dragon Quest.

I don't think we need to argue it's merit or the fact that Nintendo wants it in the game.

But do you think the content will be easier to obtain in the future? How likely is Hero to return?

I think it will be easier to obtain returning DQ content, DQ music, and additional DQ content from the games represented by the character. Primarily just because the hardest part, the initial negotiation and implementation, is already done.

However I do think SE is going to uphold their habit of not lending out content from games not represented by the character. Perhaps this time they'll just add another few Heroes as alts (such as from DQ12) - though it depends on how much Nintendo wants to spend.

That said, I don't think Hero is safe - but I don't find the character among the likeliest to get cut either. There's already a lot of Square involvement, and they've a couple other candidates with decent shots, so if the roster gets smaller, a question of priority might arise.

Hero and Cloud will be the only SE characters who come back in the next game’s base roster. Bet.

I think the only way either is in the base roster is if there's a corresponding character as DLC.

And even if they compromise for that, I think SE is still going to push for Cloud being DLC anyway, because I believe Square heavily prefers DLC to base and Cloud is a very profitable character to forfeit a back-end cut on. Without EiH I don't think Nintendo is going to fight as hard to ensure he's in base, so it depends on if they'd acquiesce to Square's terms for something now less crucial to them. But if all parties are satisfied by a Cloud in base, Seph as DLC deal, that could happen again.

And I don't think a second DQ character is overly likely. Sure it's possible Slime shows up, but I think what's going to happen is Hero just returns as DLC. Though this time the default may be the DQ12 hero, depending on that game's timing. Or maybe even just Erdrick if DQ12 isn't ready, given the remake, him seemingly being the one Sakurai wanted as the default, and that Square will probably be less concerned about promoting DQ11.

 

[Kirbeh]

Personally, I quite like having unlockable content in games, so I'm hoping we continue to get that in Smash. Just don't do it like Ultimate did.

Do the inverse, 12 secret characters, everyone else is available from the start.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Gonna derail the discussion for Digimon again as I was just made aware this mod WIP exists.

Still a work in progress so a good portion is still Samus stuff, but there's specials, a jab, and dash attack so far. Model made from scratch.
Oh, and basic movement animations.

 

[RileyXY1]

Hero and Cloud will be the only SE characters who come back in the next game’s base roster. Bet.

I think none of them will be back in the base roster. I think they will all be DLC once again.

 

[Pupp135]

In terms of unlockable content, I don’t think I have a super strong preference whether we have it. Unlockable content does have it’s fun novelty, but starting with everything at the start is also has its pros.

If unlockable content returned, I’d rather it be closer to what Crusade’s 0.9.4 demo or Super Smash Flash pre-1.2 handled it where a few characters are unlockable, and they provided a fun challenge.

 

[superprincess]

That's not true at all. The numbering for all the characters has been consistent from the EiH trailer onward. PT has been listed as 33-35 since their Ultimate reveal.

Before the Kencineroar reveal:

After the Kencineroar reveal:

What I said was very much true.

 

[Noipoi]

I think none of them will be back in the base roster. I think they will all be DLC once again.

How much are you willing to bet on that