Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[JOJONumber691]

They're not going to cut K. Rool.
I honestly do not understand why people think we're getting those drastic cuts.

This is kind of my expected cut list, nothing TOO drastic 1st party-wise:

, , , and unfortunately maybe: , because of licensing.

If we’re talking licensing issues then that’s Cloud and Sephiroth. Hero’s literally died and the current owner of DQ’s music, Matsuo Hayato, is very open to allowing others to use the music more and is also not a racist. Hero is fine. Besides that yea 100% agree.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think that all SE vets will be made DLC, Cloud included.

 

[BritishGuy54]

I think that all SE vets will be made DLC, Cloud included.

I think Cloud, and maybe Hero are DLC. Sephiroth, I don’t see coming back.

At this rate, Square Enix could just get its own dedicated Fighter’s Pass because why not.

 

[ninjahmos]

I've decided to try my hand at doing a moveset for a beat 'em up character (aside from Lu Bu and Nobunaga), which was a little harder than I thought, but I managed to come up with a few things. This next one is for Axel Stone from Streets of Rage. Here it is:

Axel Stone Moveset

 

[Stratos]

I've turned the list of characters I want to see as newcomers to the Super Smash Bros. series into a roster. Here is the roster:

 

[Louie G.]

I've been out today so I know this is like an hour or two out of style now, but before we move on too much further I wanted to talk about Xenoblade's role in Smash currently compared to Pokemon / FE.

We currently have two (well, three) characters - one is the original protagonist of the series. The other was a highly popular fan request, from the most successful game in the series to date. It's hard to speculate any sort of pattern off of these two yet.

Pokemon and Fire Emblem additions are often put aside for games that are either on the horizon at the start of development or had just released. Let's say that early project plans for the next Smash began sometimes over the last few months - Xenoblade 3 will been about 1.5 - 2 years old. As a point of reference, Brawl's project plan was drafted in Nov 2004 and Path of Radiance released in 2005. That's also when the Lucario movie came out, and DP in 2006. Cut to Smash 4, Fire Emblem Awakening came out a mere week before the project plan was drafted in April 2012. Greninja didn't exist. Theoretically, if Xenoblade was going the way of these two series, a "Xenoblade 4" character would have better odds.

By the time the next game releases, we're probably talking somewhere around 4-5 years out since Xeno 3 dropped. So there's really no traditional "promotional" value in this choice. Not that a Xeno 3 character can't join, but it would be under different merits than simply responding to the hot new thing. Which is to say it has to follow the same criteria as any other series on the roster, it doesn't have a reserved seat.

 

[fogbadge]

I've turned the list of characters I want to see as newcomers to the Super Smash Bros series into a roster. Here is the roster:
View attachment 390025

hmm got chibi-robo but not toad. conflicting

oh btw the FDC protag's official name is Taro

The other was a highly popular fan request, from the most successful game in the series to date. It's hard to speculate any sort of pattern off of these two yet.

they were asking for rex let's stop pretending otherwise

 

[Louie G.]

they were asking for rex let's stop pretending otherwise

You can speak for yourself, while other friends I've spoken to said they mostly wanted Aegis and Rex was a means to an end. The fact of the matter is some kind of Xenoblade 2 representation was highly requested, and often people believed Rex / Pyra would be a package deal. Pyra is still half of that equation and it would be equally dishonest of you to pretend that isn't the case.

Regardless, I personally wasn't speaking exclusively. Both of them were highly requested.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So I had been going off the assumption that ARMS was going to be a launch title for the next console, or at the very least, will appear soon after it launches, but I've just learned that the dev team for ARMS is the dev team for Mario Kart, which means that we will absolutely not be seeing ARMS for a while since there's no way that what they're working on isn't Mario Kart 10.

I still don't think Min Min's on the chopping block, but a second character, Echo Fighter or not, is definitely not happening. Worst case, she does get cut, and is readded as DLC when ARMS 2 comes out in between DLC wave 1 and 2, but I'm still at least a little bit more optimistic than that.

 

[Gengar84]

they were asking for rex let's stop pretending otherwise

I wasn’t. I much prefer having Pythra and Min-Min than Rex and Spring Man.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I've turned the list of characters I want to see as newcomers to the Super Smash Bros series into a roster. Here is the roster:
View attachment 390025

This is the next's Smash roster.
Everyone will be cut, and replaced with the next generation of Smashers.
Like Street Fighter III (the first version), but everybody will hate it more. At least it had Ryu and Ken.
/jk

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Even ignoring the whole means to an end thing, they did pick Rex initially, it just didn't work out, and they had to tweak the decision.

 

[BritishGuy54]

they were asking for rex let's stop pretending otherwise

I’m pretty sure people were asking for both, but would be okay with either. Let’s be real, the majority of fans would have been disappointed if they had gone with say, Nia or Malos instead.

And if the demand for Rex is so high, I can see a possibility of him getting in with his XC3 design as more of a fan request akin to Chrom. Albiet, Rex would need more effort with a unique moveset, but still. I wouldn’t say it’s out of the question.

But I think Sakurai made the right call by going with Pyra. It allows for Mythra to join too, and they’re still incredibly popular. It was just easier to go with the less controversial option at the time, it seems.

 

[ninjahmos]

This is the next's Smash roster.
Everyone will be cut, and replaced with the next generation of Smashers.
Like Street Fighter III (the first version), but everybody will hate it more. At least it had Ryu and Ken.
/jk

That always goes really well

 

[RileyXY1]

Even ignoring the whole means to an end thing, they did pick Rex initially, it just didn't work out, and they had to tweak the decision.

Yeah. Their massive polygon counts played a part, as having Rex and either Pyra or Mythra on screen at the same time would be highly disastrous for the CPU. Pyra has the highest polygon count out of all the fighters in the game, while Mythra has the third highest.

 

[Gengar84]

Let’s be real, fans would have been disappointed if they had gone with say, Nia or Malos instead.

Nia’s my favorite Xenoblade character and most wanted from the series. I’m definitely not a part of that group that would have been disappointed with her over either Rex or Pyra/Mythra.

 

[Shinuto]

I’m pretty sure people were asking for both, but would be okay with either. Let’s be real, the majority of fans would have been disappointed if they had gone with say, Nia or Malos instead.

And if the demand for Rex is so high, I can see a possibility of him getting in with his XC3 design as more of a fan request akin to Chrom. Albiet, Rex would need more effort with a unique moveset, but still. I wouldn’t say it’s out of the question.

But I think Sakurai made the right call by going with Pyra. It allows for Mythra to join too, and they’re still incredibly popular. It was just easier to go with the less controversial option at the time, it seems.

Speak for yourself I'd have loved Nia. And Malos would be great too.

 

[TheQuester]

I sincerely doubt they're cutting Sora next game after confirming he was the most wanted character on the Ballot. That feels like a pretty easy freebie. I know Sakurai has said there were hurdles involved with his inclusion, but Disney was also keen on the idea, so now that that communication channel is open, I would assume it'd be a lot easier the second time.

Also not sure why Palutena and Bowser Jr. are getting cut either, especially when Bowser Jr. just had a pretty prominent role in a Mario game 7 months ago,

Granted I'm not sure who you'd cut instead since imo most characters in Ultimate's roster have something going for them to come back, but that's just my two cents.

Sora, Palutena and Bowser Jr are "temporary cuts", so they're only getting cut base game.
Sora just like Hero i asume there might be licensign costs/issues that might prevent them to be base game.
Palutena and Bowser Jr., well, Bowser Jr was aparently low priority newcomer in Smash 4 and barely made in, so he might be cut base game and Palutena, it was either her, Mewtwo Ike, ZSS and Sheik, and i picked her because she's the newer character in Smash.
This is in the scenario that there's minimum 15 cuts and most DLC characters are vets, i had to choose characters.

Hero’s literally died and the current owner of DQ’s music, Matsuo Hayato, is very open to allowing others to use the music more and is also not a racist. Hero is fine

I didnt know about that, so i guess he can be base game then (yay).
Sora, i'm still unsure about if it will make it as base game.

If we’re talking licensing issues then that’s Cloud and Sephiroth

Cloud made it base game in Ult, so i feel like it's possible somehow. I feel like Seph will only be cut if Cloud is not base game, i feel like he'll be base if Cloud returns in base, he's just too iconic i feel idk.

 

[Stratos]

oh btw the FDC protag's official name is Taro

Yes, you're right.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The idea that Cloud and Sephiroth wouldn't be a package deal is laughable.

You're trying to tell me...that Nintendo/Sakurai would be willing to renegotiate for Cloud....but not Sephiroth now that he's been in Smash as well?

 

[TheQuester]

So I had been going off the assumption that ARMS was going to be a launch title for the next console, or at the very least, will appear soon after it launches, but I've just learned that the dev team for ARMS is the dev team for Mario Kart, which means that we will absolutely not be seeing ARMS for a while since there's no way that what they're working on isn't Mario Kart 10.

I still don't think Min Min's on the chopping block, but a second character, Echo Fighter or not, is definitely not happening. Worst case, she does get cut, and is readded as DLC when ARMS 2 comes out in between DLC wave 1 and 2, but I'm still at least a little bit more optimistic than that.

It's just priorirites and asuming this game will have a bigger number than usual (15 minimum)
I can see Min Min begin priorizing over Wii Fit, Incineroar, Plant or Corrin, but i just can't see them picking Min Min over Ike, Sheik, ZSS, Palutena, Mewtwo, Kazuya, Joker, ROB, Duck Hunt, Jigglypuff or any other unique characters in a 15+ cuts Smash 6.

The idea that Cloud and Sephiroth wouldn't be a package deal is laughable.

You're trying to tell me...that Nintendo/Sakurai would be willing to renegotiate for Cloud....but not Sephiroth now that he's been in Smash as well?

Thta's what im saying too, if Cloud returns base, its likely Seph will be there as unlockable.

 

[SPEN18]

Yeah Xeno 3 and Engage reps feel like the same form of conclusion-jumping, basing predictions off surface-level patterns without taking into account the entire contexts behind each previous addition. Depending on the placement of the project plan and the timeline for the next game's release, these releases might not be top-of-mind for promotional picks. The fact that their same-gen, more successful counterparts in Xeno 2 and TH already got reps as recently as Ult's DLC only makes it seem less likely that they will re-up on what will be only semi-recent faces from these series. I still can't say I'd be all too surprised if they got reps, and an earlier project plan would probably be in their favor, but it's far from a foregone conclusion, especially when you look at the other first party options that, even with fairly good timing for Xeno 3 and Engage, could very easily have the argument to take higher priority.

 

[Opossum]

It's just priorirites and asuming this game will have a bigger number than usual (15 minimum)
I can see Min Min begin priorizing over Wii Fit, Incineroar, Plant or Corrin, but i just can't see them picking Min Min over Ike, Sheik, ZSS, Palutena, Mewtwo, Kazuya, Joker, ROB, Duck Hunt, Jigglypuff or any other unique characters in a 15+ cuts Smash 6.



Thta's what im saying too, if Cloud returns base, its likely Seph will be there as unlockable.

Not only could I see them picking Min Min over half the characters you said there, I think they should.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

The idea that Cloud and Sephiroth wouldn't be a package deal is laughable.

You're trying to tell me...that Nintendo/Sakurai would be willing to renegotiate for Cloud....but not Sephiroth now that he's been in Smash as well?

I mean they could just not want to bring back Sephiroth because the dev team determined resources would be better served elsewhere for the time being lol, it's not that crazy. I think Sephiroth's chances of coming back are better than generally assumed but it wouldn't be surprising if he was excluded.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I mean they could just not want to bring back Sephiroth because the dev team determined resources would be better served elsewhere for the time being lol, it's not that crazy. I think Sephiroth's chances of coming back are better than generally assumed but it wouldn't be surprising if he was excluded.

That line of thinking doesn't make sense.

You have the option to negotiate for two of Square's biggest characters at the same time because they fall under the same game's copyright....and you deliberately choose not to pick one because "we could do something else"?

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

You have the option to negotiate for two of Square's biggest characters at the same time because they fall under the same game's copyright....and you deliberately choose not to pick one because "we could do something else"?

Yeah.

 

[Guynamednelson]

That line of thinking doesn't make sense.

You have the option to negotiate for two of Square's biggest characters at the same time because they fall under the same game's copyright....and you deliberately choose not to pick one because "we could do something else"?

Making deals with third-parties already represented in Smash doesn't magically give them the resources to bring back everything that fell under their copyright.

 

[SPEN18]

The idea that Cloud and Sephiroth wouldn't be a package deal is laughable.

You're trying to tell me...that Nintendo/Sakurai would be willing to renegotiate for Cloud....but not Sephiroth now that he's been in Smash as well?

It's absolutely not a package deal (unless Square decides to make it that way by playing hardball).

Because resources and roster composition matter, too. If they're cutting down on third parties to some extent, I could see them prioritizing keeping more franchises/companies on board at the expense of doubling up, at least until more slots become available again via DLC. But it depends on what they want to do with the slots available.

 

[Louie G.]

I can see Min Min begin priorizing over Wii Fit, Incineroar, Plant or Corrin, but i just can't see them picking Min Min over Ike, Sheik, ZSS, Palutena, Mewtwo, Kazuya, Joker, ROB, Duck Hunt, Jigglypuff or any other unique characters in a 15+ cuts Smash 6.

I feel like we've probably talked about this before, but certainly there's enough precedent to believe Min Min - the sole representative of a Nintendo universe - may be prioritized over supplemental characters from larger universes. Wii Fit / ROB / Duck Hunt, I dunno. Same boat really, except ARMS is the only dedicated Switch IP on the roster and everyone seems to be in agreement that next batch of newcomers will play off the Switch generation. Cutting Min Min then starts to feel like a step backwards. I realize that ARMS' inclusion hasn't aged quite as well as something like Pikmin or Xenoblade before it, but it's pretty unheard of for Smash to abandon a more contemporary series altogether. Maybe in a very drastic cut scenario, but likely not if we're only looking at losing 15-20 characters.

The bottom line is I think Smash has demonstrated that it typically opts to keep series around and will sooner shave off the supplemental characters in more fruitful series or secondary picks from smaller, inactive series. Out of the characters you mentioned, and ignoring third parties since they can't really be judged on an equivalent scale, are the ones who may take precedent over Min Min if anything. Maybe Ike or Mewtwo also on behalf of just being very popular characters within their own series... I can't see any reason for Ike to be cut in particular.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Thta's what im saying too, if Cloud returns base, its likely Seph will be there as unlockable.

I straight up seeing a whole FFVII DLC pack. Cloud and Sephiroth along with their stages.

I don't see Cloud coming back as base and it's painfully obvious Square had to have their arm twisted for Ultimate because of Everyone Is Here.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Palutena and Bowser Jr., well, Bowser Jr was aparently low priority newcomer in Smash 4 and barely made in, so he might be cut base game and Palutena, it was either her, Mewtwo Ike, ZSS and Sheik, and i picked her because she's the newer character in Smash.

Okay, but I could apply the same Bowser Jr. logic to Mewtwo since he was low priority in Brawl and ended up getting cut, then didn't make it into Smash 4 base game.

 

[TheQuester]

Making deals with third-parties already represented in Smash doesn't magically give them the resources to bring back everything that fell under their copyright.

I think Sepiroth is worth bringing back base game, he's iconic and very popular online as well, which is more important than some of you guys think.

Not only could I see them picking Min Min over half the characters you said there, I think they should.

I'm curious why? Don't get me wrong Min Min is cool, but adding her over Jigglypuff, Ike, Sheik, ROB, Mewtwo and etc would be kinda odd.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That line of thinking doesn't make sense.

You have the option to negotiate for two of Square's biggest characters at the same time because they fall under the same game's copyright....and you deliberately choose not to pick one because "we could do something else"?

It's more likely than you'd think. If they've got a roster almost all the way put together, and they can only add one more character to the project plan, Cloud on his lonesome is about as good a choice as any. They're not gonna not add Cloud because they don't have time for Sephiroth. Sephiroth could just skip a game.

 

[fogbadge]

You can speak for yourself, while other friends I've spoken to said they mostly wanted Aegis and Rex was a means to an end. The fact of the matter is some kind of Xenoblade 2 representation was highly requested, and often people believed Rex / Pyra would be a package deal. Pyra is still half of that equation and it would be equally dishonest of you to pretend that isn't the case.

Regardless, I personally wasn't speaking exclusively. Both of them were highly requested.

and yet the rex thread was more active than the pyra/mythra. nothing stop the smash fandom from asking for what they want. if they wanted the pair of them then surely barely anyone got what they wanted cause that's not what we have.

I wasn’t. I much prefer having Pythra and Min-Min than Rex and Spring Man.

what's min min got to do with this?

I’m pretty sure people were asking for both, but would be okay with either. Let’s be real, the majority of fans would have been disappointed if they had gone with say, Nia or Malos instead.

And if the demand for Rex is so high, I can see a possibility of him getting in with his XC3 design as more of a fan request akin to Chrom. Albiet, Rex would need more effort with a unique moveset, but still. I wouldn’t say it’s out of the question.

But I think Sakurai made the right call by going with Pyra. It allows for Mythra to join too, and they’re still incredibly popular. It was just easier to go with the less controversial option at the time, it seems.

was high. everyone now pretending they never asked for him

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

On this note I'll say that I think that Cloud coming back in the base game is probably likelier than is generally said. Everything points to Cloud being difficult to negotiate for the base game of Ultimate, but, like, it still happened lol? He did get in there end of the day. Square subsequently got three DLC characters who all had notably more content than Cloud did in Smash 4, and Sakurai talked about how the discussions between Nintendo, Square, and Disney to get Sora in lasted months and were extremely particular.

Ultimate sold 30 million copies and Square has done several Final Fantasy 7 crossovers with other media since with the Remake boosting its profile, across a pretty wide variety of games with notably less pedigree than Smash (much as I like PowerWash Simulator). Cloud is obviously a big deal high priority character from pretty much every angle, which Sakurai has acknowledged, I don't really think it's that much of a stretch to say the bare minimum would at least be negotiated as it has been twice already.

Of course this isn't an absolute, and I could also definitely see him only being DLC, it'd be easy to mention how a lot of those FF7 collabs are DLC for the base game, but I don't think it's a sure thing is all I'm saying

 

[Louie G.]

It's a real shame that Mewtwo slipped through the cracks during Brawl and needs to bunk alongside the "expendable" characters when the conversation arises.

Because otherwise like... they should OBVIOUSLY be here. I'd like to think Sakurai knew that which is why their return was treated like such a grand event to begin with. Maybe priorities will have to shift around again because this roster is gonna have to part ways with more characters than ever, but I would hope the Smash team has adjusted their priorities in the 15+ years since Brawl released. Not just for Mewtwo's sake, just in general. That's a lot of time passed so I don't know how much weight "low priority in Brawl" holds anymore.

and yet the rex thread was more active than the pyra/mythra. nothing stop the smash fandom from asking for what they want. if they wanted the pair of them then surely barely anyone got what they wanted cause that's not what we have.

Alright, unfortunately doesn't change the fact that Pyra and Mythra are in the game. Based on community reactions and according to this thread many people were happy with that, so I'm sorry that you aren't. There's really nothing else productive to say about this and it was probably the least important part of my initial post, which was essentially just saying "Xenoblade 2 rep" was highly requested and therefore acted on later.

 

[TheQuester]

On this note I'll say that I think that Cloud coming back in the base game is probably likelier than is generally said. Everything points to Cloud being difficult to negotiate for the base game of Ultimate, but, like, it still happened lol? He did get in there end of the day. Square subsequently got three DLC characters who all had notably more content than Cloud did in Smash 4, and Sakurai talked about how the discussions between Nintendo, Square, and Disney to get Sora in lasted months and were extremely particular.

Ultimate sold 30 million copies and Square has done several Final Fantasy 7 crossovers with other media since with the Remake boosting its profile, across a pretty wide variety of games with notably less pedigree than Smash (much as I like PowerWash Simulator). Cloud is obviously a big deal high priority character from pretty much every angle, which Sakurai has acknowledged, I don't really think it's that much of a stretch to say the bare minimum would at least be negotiated as it has been twice already.

Of course this isn't an absolute, and I could also definitely see him only being DLC, it'd be easy to mention how a lot of those FF7 collabs are DLC for the base game, but I don't think it's a sure thing is all I'm saying

I personally would be surprised if Cloud is cut, even as a DQ fan i admit i see Hero more likely to be cut base than Cloud.

 

[Opossum]

I think Sepiroth is worth bringing back base game, he's iconic and very popular online as well, which is more important than some of you guys think.


I'm curious why? Don't get me wrong Min Min is cool, but adding her over Jigglypuff, Ike, Sheik, ROB, Mewtwo and etc would be kinda odd.

Min Min is the sole representation of ARMS, a successful, modern Nintendo IP, on the playable roster. That, in my eyes, gives her a lot more reason to return than the likes of Jigglypuff, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, or honestly even Joker or Kazuya, because even if it would be sad that those two got cut, they always have the excuse of the third party licensing budget going elsewhere. Min Min would be an incredibly heavy cut no matter how you slice it.

She has an incredibly unique playstyle, is the sole representative of her series, helps the roster be more diverse just by being there, and is from a modern series. All of these cement her as incredibly likely to come back, in my eyes, or even be one of the first veterans confirmed for next time.

 

[fogbadge]

It's a real shame that Mewtwo slipped through the cracks during Brawl and needs to bunk alongside the "expendable" characters when the conversation arises.

Because otherwise like... they should OBVIOUSLY be here. I'd like to think Sakurai knew that which is why their return was treated like such a grand event to begin with. Maybe priorities will have to shift around again because this roster is gonna have to part ways with more characters than ever, but I would hope the Smash team has adjusted their priorities in the 15+ years since Brawl released. Not just for Mewtwo's sake, just in general. That's a lot of time passed so I don't know how much weight "low priority in Brawl" holds anymore.



Alright, unfortunately doesn't change the fact that Pyra and Mythra are in the game. Based on community reactions and according to this thread many people were happy with that, so I'm sorry that you aren't. There's really nothing else productive to say about this and it was probably the least important part of my initial post, which was essentially just saying "Xenoblade 2 rep" was highly requested and therefore acted on later.

I remember the initial reaction and a lot of people were quite disappointed and upset. But after the sakurai presents video they all did a complete 180. Even though nothing had changed. Had it been after they played the characters that would make sense but it was before that

 

[DarthEnderX]

I sincerely doubt they're cutting Sora next game after confirming he was the most wanted character on the Ballot. That feels like a pretty easy freebie.

It's the exact opposite of a freebie though, because he's probably the most expensive character for Nintendo to license.

I've turned the list of characters I want to see as newcomers to the Super Smash Bros. series into a roster. Here is the roster:

That certainly is...a list.

But I see Hayabusa. So my hands are tied.