Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

oh good grief are we on the age rating again?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Doom Slayer would 100% be a more aggressive take because the games reward you more if you're up close and personal, iirc.

He'd have guns for ranged attacks but he'd be much better at point blank.

The gameplay I've seen has a lot of strafing in it, so based on my impression he could be a zoner like Link: A character focused on controlling neutral, but has to get in to do big damage and score K.O.'s.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally think Doom Slayer does NOT fit Smash Bros and shouldn't be included.
Resident Evil i think it would be fine, i guess, but Doom Slayer It would be like including GTA into the game.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The gameplay I've seen has a lot of strafing in it, so based on my impression he could be a zoner like Link: A character focused on controlling neutral, but has to get in to do big damage and score K.O.'s.

That also sounds about right. As long as he can't kill from afar (or that those ways are easily telegraphed), it'll feel pretty accurate.

I personally think Doom Slayer does NOT fit Smash Bros and shouldn't be included.
Resident Evil i think it would be fine, i guess, but Doom Slayer It would be like including GTA into the game.

In that case, Bayonetta being in the game should feel wrong to you because her games are just as violent as DOOM games are. The genre of her games is called hack-and-slash for a reason. And that's not even going all of the other stuff her games have which isn't for good boys and girls.

The stuff that happens in DOOM is easily censorable in Smash while retaining the sheer intensity of its gameplay and the brutality of it.

I mean, look at Ridley's animations. That guy does NOT belong in the silly family-friendly cartoony platform fighter in any way, shape or form and yet here he is and it's ****ing awesome.

What's stopping Doom Slayer from dropping in and going all out if there's already precedence for someone who fights with sheer brutality?

 

[RileyXY1]

Doom's legacy mostly concerns something that Nintendo hates: game modding. I don't know if Nintendo would want to add a character that essentially glorifies something that the company hates and is trying to stamp out for years.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Yeah Doom (both the old and the new games) is all about movement and getting in the monster's face when the time is right. In the new games he also does a lot of hand to hand combat and he has a bunch of weapons like the grappling hook and the shoulder flamethrower.
If the Slayer gets in Smash he wouldn't play like you'd expect and FPS character to play I think. He'd use projectiles more to keep opponents in check, needing to get up close in order to close out stocks. And he'd be a bit of a grappler too, he grabs a lot in 2016 and in Eternal. Closest thing in Smash would be... Mewtwo or Lucas I think. They play a little like that.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Doom's legacy mostly concerns something that Nintendo hates: game modding. I don't know if Nintendo would want to add a character that essentially glorifies something that the company hates and is trying to stamp out for years.

They allowed Megalovania in the game which has its origins from a EarthBound ROM hack. Not to mention Toby Fox himself starting out by doing ROM hacks such as EarthBound's Halloween Hack.

Or heck, how about the fact that Doom Slayer himself is a Mii outfit?

If Nintendo was so petty as to deny us any proof that modding can be a good thing, we wouldn't have either of those things.

 

[Louie G.]

Doom's legacy mostly concerns something that Nintendo hates: game modding.

Not really, DOOM has plenty of official releases (on Nintendo consoles to boot) that performed well on their own merit. The game is often credited alongside Wolfenstein for pioneering the FPS genre and to date has had a couple heavily marketed and successful new releases that found their way to Switch.

There are popular DOOM mods, but this is practically like saying Super Mario World’s legacy is game modding. Pretty confusing take. It’s not like we’re adding a Garry’s Mod character (or Touhou).

 

[RileyXY1]

And with the whole ESRB situation I don't think that they'll be able to add M-rated characters in Smash ever again.

 

[Sucumbio]

I personally think Doom Slayer does NOT fit Smash Bros and shouldn't be included.
Resident Evil i think it would be fine, i guess, but Doom Slayer It would be like including GTA into the game.

I struggle to think of any game character that can't be in Smash solely because of the subject matter and execution thereof from their home series. Castlevania has demonism, Bayonetta has Bayonetta (not a dig), MGS has torture and R, etc ... Even games like GTA could still be repped honestly!

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

And with the whole ESRB situation I don't think that they'll be able to add M-rated characters in Smash ever again.

The ESRB has enough time to remove the stick they have up their asses before that happens.

But even then, I don't think the Japanese devs would care too much about it and it'd be Nintendo of America who's stuck removing all traces of anything not just M-Rated but also T-Rated as well. Likely in the same fashion as we've seen with this year's Spirits.

You'd be surprised how much content gets nuked if all they can use is E10 or below. This could genuinely cut down the roster by at least half and remove so many options for newcomers that Smash as we know it would be dead.

 

[Gorgonzales]

So apparently some trademarks for Stretchmo/Pushmo have been renewed in Australia.

What do think of the franchise? Do you think Nintendo values it? Could it be a potential Smash inclusion?

Whenever anyone brings up Pushmo for Smash I think of these charming little proof-of-concept illustrations Jason Lupas came up with.

 

[Opossum]

Doom's legacy mostly concerns something that Nintendo hates: game modding. I don't know if Nintendo would want to add a character that essentially glorifies something that the company hates and is trying to stamp out for years.

Boy do I have news for you about Minecraft.

 

[AreJay25]

If Nintendo really cared that much about game mods when it comes to characters then Sonic would have been cut ages ago

 

[Louie G.]

Honestly I've kinda just accepted that arguing who does or doesn't fit Smash is kind of a fool's errand. If people wanna say DOOM has no place in Smash because of its violence and setting, all power to them. I think it's very close minded, and the fact that it has representation at all refutes this to some extent, but if you're not convinced already I doubt there's much I can say to convince you otherwise.

Grand Theft Auto is a series that, personally, I really don't think belongs in Smash. I wouldn't put it in the same category as DOOM, which is founded in strong fantasy elements and not realistic crime. But on that front maybe I'm the short sighted one, who knows.

Whenever anyone brings up Pushmo for Smash I think of these charming little proof-of-concept illustrations Jason Lupas came up with.

Jason is awesome. Love his art and he's got a handful of these adorable Smash concepts, I think about his Bulborb one all the time.

 

[Sucumbio]

Late reply to the art style discussion but I just noticed how smooth everyone looks in Ultimate at least by the wait screen fmv standard ... No blemishes, facial hair, texture, it's almost like everyone is made of porcelain. I don't dislike it ofc I think Ultimate looks great overall, but I do think the more realistic look fits some characters and the next system may be able to actually handle rendering multiple different styles in the same game space...

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I love Pushmo a ton. When I was a kid and got my 3DS for the first time, Pushmo was the first game I played, and I bought and played all the sequels as well. It's a really fantastic series of puzzle games with a ton of charm that evokes a lot of nostalgia for me, and I have a good amount of attachment to those characters. I would be really happy with a new game lol. In general I feel like the early 3DS line-up has a lot of underappreciated gems in there, Liberation Maiden is another one that springs to mind. Wish its sequel was translated.


On the Doom thing, it's worth noting that the Super Shotgun has already been redesigned for its appearance in Quake Champions where it was given a more sci-fi and less realistic look. You could probably just use that.

Whenever anyone brings up Pushmo for Smash I think of these charming little proof-of-concept illustrations Jason Lupas came up with.

View attachment 389192

I've never seen this before, this is super cool. Love Corin jumping out lol.

 

[Deleted member]

If DOOM Slayer ever gets in, it will be a hater of him, i really don't think he belongs in this game and i don't care how many times people try to bring up Bayonetta and Snake, imo those are way diferent than DOOM Slayer.
There's millions of more fitting videogame characters to add that this dude, i can't believe that many smash fans want a brodude rep like DOOM here....

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Doom has a pretty decent legacy with Nintendo to boot. Impressive (albeit flawed) ports of the original on SNES and GBA, Doom 64 on the N64 (a game that became so acclaimed many have called it the real Doom 3) and the two most recent games getting good versions on Switch. I mean you can basically experience the bulk of the franchise's history (Doom 1, 2, 64, 3, 2016, Eternal) on Switch now which is more than can be said for numerous other famous series.

 

[Slime Scholar]

I do wonder how you’d accurately portray the Doom Slayer in Smash.

He’s from a sub genre of shooter where the guns all feel extremely powerful while the player character also has incredible speed and mobility. He doesn’t ever slow down to pepper enemies with shots from afar or fire from cover. You play DOOM by running around like a maniac, doing laps around an area and dizzyingly strafing around demons while you blast them into a fine paste, or going in for a comically brutal glory kill.

I like the 2016 game and Eternal a lot, but I’m not sure how you actually have the character in a fighting game without neutering him in some way.

 

[Deleted member]

I do wonder how you’d accurately portray the Doom Slayer in Smash.

He’s from a sub genre of shooter where the guns all feel extremely powerful while the player character also has incredible speed and mobility. He doesn’t ever slow down to pepper enemies with shots from afar or fire from cover. You play DOOM by running around like a maniac, doing laps around an area and dizzyingly strafing around demons while you blast them into a fine paste, or going in for a comically brutal glory kill.

I like the 2016 game and Eternal a lot, but I’m not sure how you actually have the character in a fighting game without neutering him in some way.

You can't portrait this character acurately in Smash Bros. so he shouldn't be in.
I personally also don't like DOOM and don't want it in Smash Bros. in any form, the fact that is a mii costume is bad enough for me.
They shouldn't waste resources in this "character" in my opinion, he's also a brodude rep as i previously said.

 

[Louie G.]

There's millions of more fitting videogame characters to add that this dude, i can't believe that many smash fans want a brodude rep like DOOM here....

Alright, are you just baiting at this point? Because this is a pretty embarrassing thing to say in earnest and I hope you're just trying to get a rise out of people.

I notice this happens a lot in respect to shooter characters in particular. Doomguy, Master Chief, Jonesy get hit with the "dudebro" allegations as if there isn't demonstrably overlapping appeal toward these games within this thread, or in certain case the Switch installbase as a whole. Carrying this sort of attitude toward FPS games as a Nintendo fan is the kind of thing I grew out of in middle school.

For what it's worth, I don't care if you don't like the characters, it's just this lame sort of umbrella labeling that I can't stand during these conversations.

 

[Lionfranky]

I don't remember who suggested it but the sentiment was that a FPS rep would be "easy" to develop compared to other tropes. I personally think it's the opposite. For Smash anyway making a FPS rep like Chief or Doomguy will be a true challenge. I'd like to think it's possible but as I think about it I'm not sure how to even go about making the moveset...

https://imgur.com/gallery/GoavChB

I think this moveset is pretty spot on. Halo also heavily emphasizes melee combat. It pretty much invented modern "shoot-melee-grenade" trinity mechanic we have in many shooters.

They can also use moveset of Nicole from DOA4.

That's not even counting assassination like these.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Doom if anything has a fairly strong Nintendo connection. Doom 64 just outright is Doom 3 basically, it's a full on mainline title that's very important to the series. Not to disparage Doom 3 itself, I'll defend that game, but Doom 64 is definitely much more in line with the established precedent.

I would say the textbook way to handle Doomslayer would be to give him an ammo mechanic, where his projectile weaponry mapped to his specials run on limited ammo, and to replenish it, you have to deal damage with your normal attacks up-close. That would replicate the gameplay of the modern Doom games, where you hit enemies from a distance with powerful explosive projectiles, but once you run out of ammo, you have to get in close and replenish with physical attacks, and are punished for trying to constantly zone and not getting into the thick of things and constantly moving. In turn, I imagine he would be somewhat lightweight like most rushdown fighters in the game currently, and I imagine his attacks would come out fast but have a charge up, similar to Cloud. Sakurai has commented on this and how Cloud is so powerful he had to find a way to balance him in some regard.

Like Cloud, I think it's unlikely Doomslayer wouldn't be really good if he was added and aimed to replicate the feel of Doom (especially Smash 4 Cloud lol), but I think you can limit him within reason to make him really strong but not overwhelming. Having characters who are strong by design isn't a bad thing after all, that's how Akuma has always been in Street Fighter, and it definitely fits someone like Doomslayer and what fans would want out of him.

 

[AreJay25]

I do wonder how you’d accurately portray the Doom Slayer in Smash.

He’s from a sub genre of shooter where the guns all feel extremely powerful while the player character also has incredible speed and mobility. He doesn’t ever slow down to pepper enemies with shots from afar or fire from cover. You play DOOM by running around like a maniac, doing laps around an area and dizzyingly strafing around demons while you blast them into a fine paste, or going in for a comically brutal glory kill.

I like the 2016 game and Eternal a lot, but I’m not sure how you actually have the character in a fighting game without neutering him in some way.

I mean he's always struck me as a character that would fit the glass cannon archetype to a tee. Insanely powerful tools and attributes but dies in a few hits... which, honestly, considering the higher difficulties in the series practically turn him into this anyways, works perfectly.

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, are you just baiting at this point? Because this is a pretty embarrassing thing to say in earnest and I hope you're just trying to get a rise out of people.

I notice this happens a lot in respect to shooter characters in particular. Doomguy, Master Chief, Jonesy get hit with the "dudebro" allegations as if there isn't demonstrably overlapping appeal toward these games within this thread, or in certain case the Switch installbase as a whole. Carrying this sort of attitude toward FPS games as a Nintendo fan is the kind of thing I grew out of in middle school.

For what it's worth, I don't care if you don't like the characters, it's just this lame sort of umbrella labeling that I can't stand during these conversations.

It's my opinion.
It doesn't have to aling with other people's points of views.
Personally dont want broude reps in smash bros, and umbrella labeling is completely fine because they're just videogames.

 

[osby]

Late reply to the art style discussion but I just noticed how smooth everyone looks in Ultimate at least by the wait screen fmv standard ... No blemishes, facial hair, texture, it's almost like everyone is made of porcelain. I don't dislike it ofc I think Ultimate looks great overall, but I do think the more realistic look fits some characters and the next system may be able to actually handle rendering multiple different styles in the same game space...

But most of the Smash characters don't have super detailed skin textures in their own games. Like, I guess Cloud and Snake do and maybe a few more but I don't think most characters would really benefit from that.

You can't portrait this character acurately in Smash Bros. so he shouldn't be in.

So we just moved this argument to another character now that Steve got in, huh?

 

[Deleted member]

So we just moved this argument to another character now that Steve got in, huh?

No.
It's just my opinion i don't like DOOM Slayer and i will dislike the character inclusion in Smash Bros.
I think he does not belong in Smash Bros, not that Nintendo would care what i think, but i dont want him in, personally.

 

[Louie G.]

Anyway, to follow through on the conversation about Doomguy's playstyle, I'm definitely partial to him playing more like a rushdown pseudo-grappler (Bowser?) with a couple short range zoning options. I could see gunshots functioning more as a "get off me" tool or combo finisher if the opponent drifts out of melee range. Otherwise it's definitely stuff like the Doomblade and chainsaw that excite me the most about him.

I guess maybe it comes down the most to whether or not they want to design him to "represent FPS" and have his kit revolve around aiming his shotgun and/or swapping out weapons, reloading etc. Personally I think this approach may suit Master Chief better, while Doomguy ought to go all in on the "rip and tear" philosophy. Probably the best argument for why these two could easily coexist if they wanted.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You can't portrait this character acurately in Smash Bros. so he shouldn't be in.
I personally also don't like DOOM and don't want it in Smash Bros. in any form, the fact that is a mii costume is bad enough for me.

Methinks your opinion about his portrayal may be a teensy bit biased.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

And with the whole ESRB situation I don't think that they'll be able to add M-rated characters in Smash.

Joker, Snake and Bayonetta standing there like:

 

[Swamp Sensei]

, i can't believe that many smash fans want a brodude rep like DOOM here....

We can make a copypasta out of this statement.

It's that stupid and ridiculous. You didn't even use the term right. It's "dudebro."

Yeah I'm not mincing words on this one. We're Nintendo fans. Many of us got bullied for liking Nintendo games when we were younger. Immediately dismissing a franchise as "bro dude" is the same **** as people dismissing Mario or Pokemon as "kid ****,' or "weeb ****." You don't have to like or want Doom content. But statements like this have no place in speculation.

This statement is so ridiculous I'm not even convinced it's genuine. I'd more accept the argument that Doom shouldn't be in because it's demonic (not true, but that at least makes some sense). At least that isn't spiteful for no reason.

This is ridiculous.

 

[ninjahmos]

If Doomguy DOES get in, they should use both of his designs from the original game and the reboot.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If Doomguy DOES get in, they should use both of his designs from the original game and the reboot.

i'd be insulted if they didnt

 

[AreJay25]

If Doomguy DOES get in, they should use both of his designs from the original game and the reboot.

I am curious if they'd be willing to include his Doom 64 design as well. It is a bit different from the classic marine suit, plus there's the obvious Nintendo connection.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I am curious if they'd be willing to include his Doom 64 design as well. It is a bit different from the classic marine suit, plus there's the obvious Nintendo connection.

Could easily be an alt color for the classic design, I think

 

[ScrubReborn]

I do wonder how you’d accurately portray the Doom Slayer in Smash.

He’s from a sub genre of shooter where the guns all feel extremely powerful while the player character also has incredible speed and mobility. He doesn’t ever slow down to pepper enemies with shots from afar or fire from cover. You play DOOM by running around like a maniac, doing laps around an area and dizzyingly strafing around demons while you blast them into a fine paste, or going in for a comically brutal glory kill.

I like the 2016 game and Eternal a lot, but I’m not sure how you actually have the character in a fighting game without neutering him in some way.

Hmm yeah that could be trouble. Generally Smash tends to balance out characters like that by giving them a piss recovery (ie: Falcon, Cloud), bad frame data, making them combo food and/or making them a lightweight.

Note I'm speaking as mostly an outsider on DOOM and mostly judging off how you're describing him so maybe some of these ideas would not fit. I think they'd opt for the piss recovery/combo food angle. From looking at him, he looks like he'd be on the heavier side (probably about Link/Falcon tier). Also a agressive fighter like him would probably fall fast and have high gravity so that + weight would make him easy to combo.

Maybe the projectiles would still be overkill but the ammo system some of the others suggested seems like it'd be a good balancer. Especially since from what I do know, he would ideally go up close for the kill. So he's fast, strong, can rip you apart with guns and all that but he can't shoot forever and needs to go in to kill you, and while he can take a hit, he's combo food and is easy to gimp so you can flip things on him if you get the chance.

 

[Schnee117]

Doom's about being fast and aggressive, if you stop moving you die very easily. Doom Slayer would be a fast character with a lot of projectiles but the majority of them lack stopping power, Shotguns only flinch up close and Rockets always flinch but are much slower than his other guns. A character like Fox and Wolf can wall most of his damage as a result. His main method of getting KOs would be to get up close and go for grabs and Crucible kills which leave you very vulnerable if you miss and his recovery would be the Super Shotgun's meathook which is fairly easy to gimp, it'd be something like Byleth's recovery in practice.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Could easily be an alt color for the classic design, I think

For his alts I was thinking his 2016 design should have green, brown, gray and maroon colors, because those are the colors of the four Doomguys when you play the original Doom in multiplayer. Classic Doomguy should have his skins from Quake III:

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

If anything Doom is one of the most Nintendo-like non-Nintendo series in my opinion.
Story is an afterthought, gameplay is very elegant as no element that the game introduces goes underused, level design is highly curated, it's easy to understand but difficult to master.
Even the violence is so exaggerated it becomes comical and the game is fully aware of it. Instead of Normal and Hard mode you have stuff like "Hurt me plenty" and "Watch me die" lol

Doom Slayer I'd make him like this.
Moves fast, but has pretty slow frame data, like Captain Falcon. Decent air mobility but mediocre jump height and a fast faller.
Up B is the Meat Hook from Eternal, basically a tether, but if you grab an opponent you get slinged to them and the Doom Slayer punches them.
Neutral B would need to be a gun, maybe he changes gun depending on how long you hold down B. Like, max charge is the BFG 9000 which fires a strong but slow moving energy ball, and minimum charge is the standard pistol from 2016/Eternal, a fast but weak "get off me" shot. If you want to introduce a gimmick to limit his shooting, make it so that the guns use projectiles and you can only recover projectiles by delivering melee attacks.
Side B is the Chainsaw. Keep tapping B to prolong to move. It's mostly there to deal damage. With the projectile gimmick this would be the ideal way to recharge your weapons, like in Eternal.
Down B is Glory Kill, basically a command grab followed by a punch and then you slam your opponent to the ground, if they're above a certain % (say, 100% or 120%) they explode in place like in Stamina mode.
Throws can be borrowed from various glory kills, and as far as other normal attacks go he can punch, kick and use close range weapons like the Doomblade and the flamethrower.
The Crucible is the final smash.

Something like this I think would make him pretty close to how you play Doom. You're fast, but your attacks need a lot of commitment so you only want to get close when it's safe and you use long range weapons to create openings.
On the other hand, you're combo food and your recovery is meh, so you can die fast for a single bad decision.
Glory Kill is your trump card.

Maybe it's just me, but the Slayer is one of the easiest characters to envision how he'd play in Smash. He already has a clear playstyle and a ton of weapons and attacks that exist to enable that playstyle. You only need to translate it.