Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[superprincess]

I think Yoshi should keep the egg symbol and count as his own universe in Smash. As someone who was introduced to Yoshi through the Mario games, it did seem a little weird at first that he's separate, but from an unbiased point of view it does make sense. Most Yoshi games don't even feature Mario, they're their own unique brand and Yoshi in Smash represents that. Wario is more of a clear case, as the WarioWare series has done pretty much everything to establish itself as a wholly different universe from the very beginning.

There's no point in arguing about this though, as both Yoshi and Wario are grouped with the Mario characters in the CSS of both Brawl and SSB4, proving that Nintendo/Bandai-Namco/Sora Ltd. clearly think of them as Mario sub-series. Which is true, they're unique series that spun off from Mario characters.

That does raise the question of why Luigi's Mansion isn't its own universe in Smash but... the games themselves still heavily feature Mario characters (Boos, Mario himself, and Peach and Toad as of LM3) and Luigi's Mansion content regularly finds its way back into the Mario brand: from haunted mansion tracks and Poltergust karts in Mario Kart, to E. Gadd in some early RPGs. WarioWare has never had that same bounce back into the Mario-verse, and neither does Yoshi tbh. Aside from the Yoshi's Island track and Poochy in Mario Kart Tour / 8 Deluxe, no Yoshi-original content has made its way into the Mario series to my knowledge.

And for the few people on GameFaqs (lol) that recommended Peach should count as her own series due to Showtime the answer is just no. That's one game with no connection to Peach's previous starring role (Super Princess Peach), meaning that there's no concrete "Princess Peach" series of games.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This Yoshi talk has me thinking. What new content would you want from the Yoshi franchise in a new game?

I'd love Kamek, but I really hope for the return of Wooly World. The stage and the game it's based on is fantastic and there's a ton of great music from that game.

As for real new stage content, I guess we would get stuff from Yoshi's New Island and Yoshi's Crafted World. I think Crafted World would provide some cool stage concepts.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

This Yoshi talk has me thinking. What new content would you want from the Yoshi franchise in a new game?

I'd love Kamek, but I really hope for the return of Wooly World. The stage and the game it's based on is fantastic and there's a ton of great music from that game.

As for real new stage content, I guess we would get stuff from Yoshi's New Island and Yoshi's Crafted World. I think Crafted World would provide some cool stage concepts.

The cave music from Yoshi's Island

 

[Gorgonzales]

This Yoshi talk has me thinking. What new content would you want from the Yoshi franchise in a new game?

I'd love Kamek, but I really hope for the return of Wooly World. The stage and the game it's based on is fantastic and there's a ton of great music from that game.

As for real new stage content, I guess we would get stuff from Yoshi's New Island and Yoshi's Crafted World. I think Crafted World would provide some cool stage concepts.

This as a stage, Kamek/Poochy as Fighters, Burt the Bashful as an assist trophy, and Mega Eggdozer as a new Final Smash for Yoshi where it ricochets off the screen borders after being thrown; I think it'd be a fun finisher despite New Island being a very mediocre game.

Oh, and actual Boss themes from Yoshi as selectable music.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Honestly, I've NEVER had a problem with Smash using abstract cosmic entities as threats for its stories. Heck, I would think more people would be fine with this, because it doesn't run the risk of heavily promoting one/some established franchise(s) over others

See. I feel the exact opposite. I think having the 'big bads' of Smash always being OCs detracts from the thing that makes Smash so cool. The crossover aspect.

I would LOVE a story where Ganondorf, Mother Brain, Dracula, Sephiroth, etc. were teaming up to claim the Triforce so they can transform the Smash world with their evil wishes, and the good guys have to team up to defeat them, and along the way, wacky hijinks ensue.

I still consider SMW to be a Mario game

It...would be insane if you didn't.

The generic Magikoopa enemy debuted in Super Mario World. The Magikoopa specifically refereed to as Kamek, clarified to be Yoshi's nemesis, debuted in Yoshi's Island.

That's not really correct. Kamek is what all Magikoopas are called in Japan. Right from their debut in SMW.

The Kamek in Yoshi's Island is a specific character, but his name is identical to the normal enemies in JA.

This as a stage

Completely agree.

 

[chocolatejr9]

And for the few people on GameFaqs (lol) that recommended Peach should count as her own series due to Showtime the answer is just no. That's one game with no connection to Peach's previous starring role (Super Princess Peach), meaning that there's no concrete "Princess Peach" series of games.

Agreed. Not only does Showtime need a sequel first, it'd also need to establish a character to directly represent it, like how King Boo and E. Gadd generally represent Luigi's Mansion. I could maybe see an argument for Grape, since it felt like they were setting her up to be Peach's personal enemy, but again with just the one game right now... who can really say?

 

[Will]

This Yoshi talk has me thinking. What new content would you want from the Yoshi franchise in a new game?

Another banger competitively legal stage like Yoshi’s Island. I always loved the Little Mac-specific tech with the rounded edges of the stage.

 

[Jave]

Eh, people are doing rosters so here's mine. 77 characters, 6 of which are Echoes (Daisy, Capt. Toadette, Dark Samus, Lucina, Dark Pit, Richter). Octoling could be an Echo but I think they could get a more Isabelle-like approach for a semi-cloned moveset. The logic here is the same from what I said a few weeks ago, where the next game will prioritize newcomers over veterans, so some characters will be inevitably cut to allow for new faces. Also something in the 70-80 range is what I feel is realistically the highest we could see for a base roster in Smash from this point on.

This is strictly a pre-DLC base roster. Every 1st party series represented in Smash so far is represented here as well, and every 3rd Party company (not series) represented so far, with the exception of Disney, gets at least one character in the base roster. I feel realistically, some series will be saved by 3rd parties for DLC, which is why some big stuff like Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Tekken and Kingdom Hearts are not here.

All of my 1st party newcomer picks are characters I feel could realistically happen. The three 3rd parties at the end are all personal favorites but I also feel have an "above zero" chance. Arle and Phoenix Wright are my two most wanted, and Athena is my favorite KOF pick so I choose her as the SNK rep.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yoshi's Story felt actually quite separated from Mario, so I can get why Yoshi, at the time of Smash 64, was his own series. It might even be because they wanted the original 8 to stick out too. Hard to say.

That said, it wouldn't have really mattered that much back then or now, but I think he's better off separated. That also said, some music should play on SMW stages regardless of being a Mario or Yoshi label. That's really the only annoyance I've found with it.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

As time moves forward, I find myself drawn to more unorthodox picks. While I do agree with "needs to be on Nintendo, needs to be popular, needs to fun:, I like the concept of more "out there" picks. Sephiroth and Kazuya really brought me out of the mindset where "protag" as a character. They could of added Terra instead of Sephiroth which I would of been fine with but Sephiroth was such an awesome addition and forgoing Jin and Heihachi and adding Kazuya was, as the kids say, the chef's kiss. I want more picks like this.

Let's add Wesker, let's add Squid Sisters, let's add Geese Howard, let's add Sigma, let's add Goomba Tower lol. I like the idea of second hand characters that are iconic within their own right but aren't the protags of their stories but rather secondary protags or villains. This sort of stuff gets me excited.

Speaking of playable zelda ive seen many say that zelda should be an option or just be put into the link role I HARD Disagree i mean link and zelda act very diffrently and have clear definded Personalitys and choice of weapons! With link clearly being the more Gamey anmd protaginstical character of the two!
When it comes to zelda being playable in main line games i think the already mentioned stealth aproach is ideal!
Have zelda start out weak imprisoned in a dungeon and trying to sneak her way out but every time link finishes a dungeon she gains a new spell until shes op!
Basically imagine the peach segments from paper mario! just that you get op at the end!

And if you wanna bring up the peach only games argument her games are clearly designed around her (as in they are feminine in a way) while zelda wielding a sword and shield doesnt fit her at all!


I mean techniaclly kirby started the platfoming fighting game! Atleast a single player version of it! You can perform combos everyone has more health and there are multiple "Characters" and Master hand is in superstar too!

In general i suggest all of the Super Star Formula Kirby Games to smash players:
Super star ultra
Kirby Return to dreamland
Triple Deluxe
Planet robobot
and even star allies!

If you wanna play smash but its a plattformer therfe you go!

Still a good smash single player would be cool!

As someone who wants to be Zelda within a playable capacity, I have to hard disagree with this one. There are many ways to have Zelda be playable that is organic and fresh. She doesn't have to utilize a sword and shield as there are plenty of games that utilize magical-based gameplay. Having Zelda be a "stealth" character does not make sense for her character as well. Magical abilities including elemental magic, debuffing magic, situational magic, and more is perfectly fine and can be help augment Link's abilities with a co-op mode or a CPU player mode. Giving Zelda the long and tired out "damsel in a castle" is growing stale and it's time to allow Zelda to shine out beyond her typical role. Sadly, TotK did not do this when it had every chance to. Hopefully Nintendo rectifies this with a playable Zelda that makes sense and not forced according to the game. Change is good because, without change and progression, things stagnant.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Going back to the Story Mode Topic:

Going back to the Story/Adventure Mode Topic:

Going forward, I rather see a World of Light 2 or something similar than anything else. Unpopular opinion but I think that World of Light is the best single-player campaign so far in Smash. Just trim a bit of the fat, a few minigames, and extra bits of lore than what got? Who's Galeem and Dharkon? What's their deal and their relation to hands and so forth

In terms of cutscenes, I think Smash 6 should follow in the footsteps of FighterZ where the cutscenes are more spread not necessarily plot-related but more so character-interactions depending on what characters you have on locked.

Or go Kid-Icarus and have conservations going on mid-match.

Although I'm due for another replay, I'm not a fan of Subspace much at all. Platforming isn't Smash's strongest suit. I would rather have a mode that plays into Smash's core concept and strength like WoL than Poor's Man Kirby.

Plus most on here are insistent on keeping a larger roster or even wanting EiH to return, I highly doubt it would be possible. How do write a decent story with 60-84 characters with all need a decent share of screen time?

If not, we still go with my Villian behind-the-cuts idea. Being responsible for all the deconfirmations

Smash Bros. is a setting where Duck Hunt and Olimar are fighting with Sephiroth. Any attempt to make a serious goddamn story around that is misguided and stupid. A Smash story should be fun and ridiculous.

So far, Smash has botched it twice, trying to sell stories about cosmic horror entities trying to dominate existence or collapse reality or some ****.

I would LOVE a story where Ganondorf, Mother Brain, Dracula, Sephiroth, etc. were teaming up to claim the Triforce so they can transform the Smash world with their evil wishes, and the good guys have to team up to defeat them, and along the way, wacky hijinks ensue.

Funny how the "it's an absurd premise, why bother to take it seriously" point never gets applied for things like TMNT, Spider-Man, Dragon Ball, etc, or even other Nintendo series in general.

Is misguided and stupid for other series like Star Fox, Zelda and Xenoblade series to take seriously despite its goofy moments and aspects. Magical Princess. Giant Mechs, Goofy Fairies, Maid Robots, Talking Animals etc and alike but yet their stories could hold ground and sinecre.

It seems you and I are strongly opposed to this one. I enjoy the Smash OCs personally.

I'm not a fan of just having Gaming villains randomly teaming up up out of contrivance just because they are the "bad guys" like as if they were a buddy rogue gallery for a Saturday morning cartoon. That is how we got mischaracterized characters like Subspace Wario. For what actual reason would they team up?

l liked that Sakurai instead of going with the typical generic bad guy team decided to do something creative and unorthodox in creating characters to give context and meaning to the scope and meaning behind the crossover of Smash

The reason Mario, Link, Pikachu, etc can meet up outside their worlds and well, crossover, is because all fighters are all toys being played with. And the player is the Master of his world. The hand giving them life. The Creative Spirit. Like how kids use their imaginations to up with all of the scenarios and matchups with their toys essentially come to life. Toy Story. The third movie. Remember its opening sequence.

The Chaos, Destruction and Absurd of it are represented by Crazy Hand and Tabuu being theorized to be, well, Taboo. The Manifestation and Gulit of playing toys, games and such etc.

If you going to have a crossover, you have to do something meaningful with them. If the premise is seeing Nintendo and Gaming All-Stars collide and come together then the place and setting they gather is equally important. If not more so. The Smash's Ocs, Concepts like Trophies and Invitations etc help to give Smash for an identity on it's own

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'm not a fan of just having Gaming villains randomly teaming up up out of contrivance just because they are the "bad guys" like as if they were a buddy rogue gallery for a Saturday morning cartoon. That is how we got mischaracterized characters like Subspace Wario. For what actual reason would they team up?

Because regardless of whether your motivation is lust for power, desire to dominate, omnicidal mania, greed, strong rivals, or just want to steal bananas...when the macguffin is something that grants wishes, everyone is motivated to possess it.

But no matter your motivation, you can't go up against 60+ heroes on your own. They'll team up defeat to the heroes, and at the last minute, when the prize is within reach, they'll turn on each other. That's what villains do.

l liked that Sakurai instead of going with the typical generic bad guy team decided to do something creative and unorthodox in creating characters to give context and meaning to the scope and meaning behind the crossover of Smash

I don't think there's anything particularly creative about Tabuu, Master Core or Galeem.

 

[Gengar84]

Because regardless of whether your motivation is lust for power, desire to dominate, omnicidal mania, greed, strong rivals, or just want to steal bananas...when the macguffin is something that grants wishes, everyone is motivated to possess it.

But no matter your motivation, you can't go up against 60+ heroes on your own. They'll team up defeat to the heroes, and at the last minute, when the prize is within reach, they'll turn on each other. That's what villains do.

I don't think there's anything particularly creative about Tabuu, Master Core or Galeem.

I think Dissidia handled the core concept of a huge crossover pretty well. Basically the heroes are all part of one big army lead by an original character and the same is true for the villains (Cosmos vs Chaos). I think you could use existing characters for Smash as the leaders instead of OC's if you wanted to. I feel the characters best suited to lead each army are probably Palutena and Hades. Going with the opposing army approach would also give us an excuse to up the villain count even more than we have right now. Villains often have the coolest designs and the most interesting moveset potential and games like Smash are the only way we really get to play as them so I'd love to see more.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I think Dissidia handled the core concept of a huge crossover pretty well. Basically the heroes are all part of one big army lead by an original character and the same is true for the villains (Cosmos vs Chaos). I think you could use existing characters for Smash as the leaders instead of OC's if you wanted to. I feel the characters best suited to lead each army are probably Palutena and Hades. Going with the opposing army approach would also give us an excuse to up the villain count even more than we have right now. Villains often have the coolest designs and the most interesting moveset potential and games like Smash are the only way we really get to play as them so I'd love to see more.

And then there's my idea, which is basically "Dragon Ball Heroes but with Nintendo characters". Basically, the whole thing takes place in some sort of simulation that allows all these characters to interact even in circumstances where that should be impossible (i.e. the character being canonically dead), and also throwing in any OCs should the overall plot require it. Heck, if you REALLY wanted to lean in on the Heroes comparison, let the player create their own avatar character that essentially serves as a self-insert to interact with the Nintendo characters directly.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Smash Bros. already started with the original villain being an OC Boss. As well as you being Toys/Trophies/etc. Trying to do a different route than that is a massive changeup that goes completely against the overall design.

The main villain should be an OC as trying to change that dynamic really doesn't work well. Minor villains being bosses in comparison works fine too. Certainly better than how Brawl handled it, as some of the bosses were... basically Kirby ones reskinned. Ultimate did it better by having some more unique boss designs. That said, both were still fun to play against.

It also makes a lot of sense. Master Hand isn't actually evil, and more of a God of Creation. This is why he goes to the Heroes' side quite often when a threat appears. Crazy Hand also notably, who is practically a God of Destruction, still teams up with Master Hand later on. Being Brothers, it's not that odd. Mind you, in the first two games, the only non-OC's were basically Metal Mario and Giant DK(and the latter is more or less the first Arcade game's DK anyway. Giga Bowser isn't much better either way, but he's more of a creative liberty, and actually is treated as a Smash OC. Being he doesn't exist in an actual Mario game(or any related franchise game)).

Brawl started having ways more OC's, with a few familiar faces. 4 tried to go back a bit on that, with not many OC's. Ultimate retains that, not overdoing it. Just having 1-3 max core OC's as your villains is enough, honestly. Besides that, the cutscenes are just too difficult to feasibly make. There's more important stuff than Story Mode, and it being simple is fine. I do agree the lack of platforming in WoL was an issue, though. That said, SSE's real issue was that it took 70% development time. It's a great mode, but oof.

 

[Arcanir]

Thank goodness someone else feels the same way. It's such a bummer to see EVERYONE get 'punished' because of this. Although, there's something that's been on my mind regarding this whole situation. If I'm being honest, I think Sakurai's reason as to why we haven't gotten something like Subspace for all of this time simply boils down to time.

There was something I read a few folks on Twitter discuss in regards to this very issue some time ago, and it feels more like Sakurai is simply covering for Nintendo, as the real issue might just be that Nintendo (currently) isn't willing to provide the time necessary to get something like Subspace to happen for Smash yet again.

That said, maybe Ultimate's success might change their tune...?

I'm not sure if it's on Nintendo (at least not exclusively), but I wouldn't be surprised if time and resource restrictions are why we haven't gotten an SSE since. Between elements like the stages, gameplay tweaks, cutscenes, enemies, bosses, and the story it probably had a large amount of developmental focus on it to get it done, and even then, not everything that they wanted made it into the final game as elements like how the Halberd got taken had to be explained on the Brawl site. Doing something like that with Ultimate would be even more of an undertaking as you have double the amount of characters in the game which means that a lot more potential work would have to be put into tweaks for the gameplay and stages for every character on top of trying to include all of them in the story and not have them feel gratiutous in their inclusion. It's very daunting work for one mode, and considering the focus on things like EiH it probably couldn't be a focus.

That's probably why WoL is the way it is, it's a mode that can be put together using pre-existing assets and some thrown in cutscenes to tie it up. It's not something that requires as much focus to get done and thus could be handled alongside bringing back every character, most stages, and adding a few other extras.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Trying to do a different route than that is a massive changeup that goes completely against the overall design.

Yeah. A massive improvement over the original design.

What are the best MvC final bosses? Apocalypse? Galactus? Or...sigh...Abyss?

 

[Gengar84]

Yeah. A massive improvement over the original design.

What are the best MvC final bosses? Apocalypse? Galactus? Or...sigh...Abyss?

Hey, Abyss is really cool looking. I've never been a fan of Galactus so I'll at least go with Abyss over him. Apocalypse is cool though.

 

[Ivander]

I think Dissidia handled the core concept of a huge crossover pretty well. Basically the heroes are all part of one big army lead by an original character and the same is true for the villains (Cosmos vs Chaos). I think you could use existing characters for Smash as the leaders instead of OC's if you wanted to.

I mean Chaos was an existing character from the original Final Fantasy compared to Cosmos.

That said, I'm not exactly fond of the idea because an OC should still have a focus, but when you have them with so many popular characters, they aren't just bound to be lost during the focus, but also not given attention compared to the popular characters that people are playing the game for.
That was Tabuu's problem because his sudden appearance was practically a one and done deal until his final boss fight, giving them next to nothing other than they were controlling Master Hand and they practically group wiped the party. The only sort of interesting detail regarding them is their theme song which shares some similarities with the Multiman Melee Wireframes from Melee, which could imply Tabuu has some connection to them.

Whereas Galeem worked because instead of just suddenly coming out of nowhere late in the story, they establish themselves as the main villain from the start, wipe out just about everybody including most of the multiverse and instead of just doing nothing afterwards, they begin making an entire army using the souls of the deceased, one mostly likely to finish the job of finishing Kirby, who they are likely aware has survived the initial onslaught, and two as we find out later, to prepare an army to fight against Dharkon.
And instead of just disappearing until their fight, Galeem is constantly hovering over the world you are exploring and every little bit, the camera moves to them and they often do something to the world like sending forth a copy of Master Hand to cause mayhem for the characters to altering the world below forcing the characters to find a different path. It is a constant looming threat that keeps getting in your way even when it's trying to reserve most of it's power to prepare for it's fight against Dharkon.
Dharkon was a cool surprise, but doesn't quite have the same atmosphere due to the characters mostly being in areas that don't showcase it more often. But that said, the Final Battle section gives both Galeem and Dharkon a couple very notable moments.

1. For one, the fact that they absolutely hate each other so much that there really is no "Big Bads ultimately team up against all the heroes". You are fighting against them while they are fighting against each other. The platforming section gives the impression they are after you when in reality, you are just in the middle of their conflict with each other and you and the platforms are just collateral damage. Every attack they do is them sending an attack against the other and when you are fighting them in their final battle, they will not ignore the opportunity to outright deliver a fatal blow when the other is vulnerable.
2. The second is that even though they are very focused on fighting each other, you can't simply pick off one than the other. Killing one first over the other basically allows the other to focus their remaining power to outright wipe the characters, since they have no longer anything to lose from using their remaining power. They know the characters are much weaker than they are. The reason you have to fight and kill both around the same time is because you have to take advantage of them prioritising the other force over you, since if they focus too much on you, it gives the other an opening.
   So instead of going the direction of "Two Big Bads realise they are losing to the main characters, so they ultimately team up against the main characters and somehow still lose" or "Bad Guys' big attack is suddenly stopped by the last minute BDH the second time around", it gives a more original direction of "The main characters can't pick off one than finish the other nor can risk one getting stronger over the other, so the only chance they have is to take advantage of the fact that both sides really hate each other to not consider you the potential threat and defeat them both quickly while they are focused and fighting each other."

So to me, Galeem was a much better villain, in character and handling, than Tabuu. Both are a Giant Space Flea from the Edge of Nowhere, but because Galeem establishes themselves at the start instead of coming in late in the story, it gave Galeem more opportunities to appear and be on-screen and to be given some potential characterisation, which little details like making an army even after it destroyed all life and it's hatred towards Dharkon, do give.

What are the best MvC final bosses? Apocalypse? Galactus? Or...sigh...Abyss?

No Onslaught? Heck, no Ultron Sigma? Ultron teaming up with Sigma was certainly one of the better parts of Infinite.

 

[DarthEnderX]

So to me, Galeem was a much better villain, in character and handling, than Tabuu.

I think calling Galeem a "character" is being generous. It's more like an angry sun that craps combat challenges.

No Onslaught? Heck, no Ultron Sigma? Ultron teaming up with Sigma was certainly one of the better parts of Infinite.

I just picked a couple of examples.

I think Ultron Sigma is actually the best one. Not only are you using established characters, you're using one from EACH of the properties involved. And ones that make sense teaming them up.

And Abyss is still the worst one, because it's a nothing OC that nobody has any investment in.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I will say I think Smash legacy means a lot and that people who cut Sheik are silly.

Unless you're Diddy Kong but like, he's partially doing a bit.

Don't get me wrong I still think Sheik is a character worth to be reviewed as potential chop block material if it comes to renewing the Zelda cast. And out of the unique newcomers from Melee, she and Ice Climbers are lower on my personal priortiy list than the rest. I'll rank her below certain Brawl unique newcomers too, especially Diddy, Meta Knight, Charizard, Lucario, King Dedede and Ike. She's a legacy character yeah, but not as much as the rest of the cast she came with. I doubt without a huge reboot she'll be gone, but if they'd cut half the roster I sort of expect her on the side not making it. And after Young Link I think she's a next logical pick to be removed to make room for new Zelda characters.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I think calling Galeem a "character" is being generous. It's more like an angry sun that craps combat challenges.

does this to you

 

[Hadokeyblade]

You know the traditional thing in Japanese crossover games is too do what Subspace Emmisary did and have a group of villains from different series doing their thing then reveal that an OC villain was pulling the strings the whole time.

I feel like if your going to have story cutscenes at all they should be like in visual novel format, that way you can have the characters who dont have voices talking to each other via dialogue bubbles and you wouldnt need to waste money getting the voice casts for the franchises together to do it.

 

[Oracle Link]

As time moves forward, I find myself drawn to more unorthodox picks. While I do agree with "needs to be on Nintendo, needs to be popular, needs to fun:, I like the concept of more "out there" picks. Sephiroth and Kazuya really brought me out of the mindset where "protag" as a character. They could of added Terra instead of Sephiroth which I would of been fine with but Sephiroth was such an awesome addition and forgoing Jin and Heihachi and adding Kazuya was, as the kids say, the chef's kiss. I want more picks like this.

Let's add Wesker, let's add Squid Sisters, let's add Geese Howard, let's add Sigma, let's add Goomba Tower lol. I like the idea of second hand characters that are iconic within their own right but aren't the protags of their stories but rather secondary protags or villains. This sort of stuff gets me excited.



As someone who wants to be Zelda within a playable capacity, I have to hard disagree with this one. There are many ways to have Zelda be playable that is organic and fresh. She doesn't have to utilize a sword and shield as there are plenty of games that utilize magical-based gameplay. Having Zelda be a "stealth" character does not make sense for her character as well. Magical abilities including elemental magic, debuffing magic, situational magic, and more is perfectly fine and can be help augment Link's abilities with a co-op mode or a CPU player mode. Giving Zelda the long and tired out "damsel in a castle" is growing stale and it's time to allow Zelda to shine out beyond her typical role. Sadly, TotK did not do this when it had every chance to. Hopefully Nintendo rectifies this with a playable Zelda that makes sense and not forced according to the game. Change is good because, without change and progression, things stagnant.

Link is the link between the zelda (games) and the player!
And for me that is true if zeldas is the main character i wouldnt really have as much interst in zelda!
Also Zelda being kidnapped gives a personal touch to the save the world motivation!
I mean the villain could kidnap someone else but still!

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Link is the link between the zelda (games) and the player!
And for me that is true if zeldas is the main character i wouldnt really have as much interst in zelda!
Also Zelda being kidnapped gives a personal touch to the save the world motivation!
I mean the villain could kidnap someone else but still!

The kidnapped trope is stale and is one reason why TotK tried to “reimagine” it. What’s not to say half way through the story, Link is kidnapped this Zelda needs to use her powers which I would argue are potentially more diverse than Link’s with the use of magic, spells, tomes, etc. I dislike the whole “kidnapping” theme and would rather see that “personal touch” be refocused to another emotion wether it be vengeance, hope, or duty instead of “herp-a-derp time’t save der pwincess”. Zelda uses this trope time and time again while using new gameplay features and mechanics to hide the fact it’s still “Link saving Zelda”. Including a playable Zelda in the mix would benefit the series; not destroy it.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Plus most on here are insistent on keeping a larger roster or even wanting EiH to return, I highly doubt it would be possible. How do write a decent story with 60-84 characters with all need a decent share of screen time?

The story doesnt have to be great or anything, nobody is going to say Project x zone has an amazing story but people like it because its cool to see such a large cast have interactions with each other.

Something as basic as "Heroes come together, they talk to each other and compare each others settings and worlds they fight bad guys and win" is good enough to entertain people.

 

[DarthEnderX]

does this to you

Shootin' solar flares. Classic angry sun behavior...

I feel like if your going to have story cutscenes at all they should be like in visual novel format, that way you can have the characters who dont have voices talking to each other via dialogue bubbles and you wouldnt need to waste money getting the voice casts for the franchises together to do it.

Ahh, the ol' Project X Zone format.

 

[Oracle Link]

The kidnapped trope is stale and is one reason why TotK tried to “reimagine” it. What’s not to say half way through the story, Link is kidnapped this Zelda needs to use her powers which I would argue are potentially more diverse than Link’s with the use of magic, spells, tomes, etc. I dislike the whole “kidnapping” theme and would rather see that “personal touch” be refocused to another emotion wether it be vengeance, hope, or duty instead of “herp-a-derp time’t save der pwincess”. Zelda uses this trope time and time again while using new gameplay features and mechanics to hide the fact it’s still “Link saving Zelda”. Including a playable Zelda in the mix would benefit the series; not destroy it.

I mean including a playable ZElda is diffrent from ZElda being the singular main character!
Although zelda can still play a huge role while being kidnapped and unplayable! She could guide link, explain Enemies and serve as the menu or lend link her abilitys i mean she already does that to a certain degree!
Also Vengeance in a zelda game? I mean its possible although link goofing arround while being filled with vengeance is weird!
Also Duty and hope are already coverd by TOTK!

Also Zelda isnt my number 1 pick when it comes to diffrent playstyles for multiple reasons:
Number 1. Her MAin weapon are light arrows something link can do too!
number 2. Her Other Abilitiys include stuff Like Firring huge blasts of light and Openening locked doors not ideal for a playable TLOZ Character
and number 3 Better alternativs exist i think all the sage from totk would be more fun to play than zelda Swimmin g as sidon, dual wielding as riju, rolling arround as yunobo and flying as tulin!

Thats why i said Start with stealth and become op imagine something like magolor Epilouge in which an overpowered Character has to regain his powers before becoming unstopable by the end! But thats more Spinoff,/ Section Material as The Diffrent links stay relativly grounded in their abilitys!

Granted you could do stuff like have link and zelda team up to save their (Young Child) Altzhough stuff like that requires a huge zelda nerf!

I said young child cause bearded gruff link is the most cursed thing ever
I mean i prefer even him losing his iconic outfit over THIS:

They defintly handeld link being older and losing his arm in TOTK much better than this Yikes!

 

[SubspaceJigglypuff]

I feel like if your going to have story cutscenes at all they should be like in visual novel format, that way you can have the characters who dont have voices talking to each other via dialogue bubbles and you wouldnt need to waste money getting the voice casts for the franchises together to do it.

This would be a pretty cost-effective way of doing it. I'd be fine with this as a compromise in place of bigger cutscenes in a hypothetical Subspace-like. Not that I ever realistically expect one unless it's either DLC or Smash 6's roster size gets nuked below any reasonable expectations, but that's besides the point.

I will add though that I want more dialogue in a Smash story mode period. That's one of my only big sticking issues with the story modes, how little the characters actually spoke or well, did much of anything in the cutscenes. Focusing on that would help a future Story stand out. Dialogue doesn't need to be equal either. Like characters like Mario and Link, sure, they don't need to be talking, but for counterexamples from the same series, give Bowser and Gandondorf some textbox lines.

 

[Oracle Link]

How about a maku or deku tree stage in the next Smash?
And A Goron city/ Death mountain One
Zelda needs a Forest, Water and fire biom Always as those are the main 3 elements!
Than slap on temple, Great sky island and a Ganon stage and you are golden!

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I mean including a playable ZElda is diffrent from ZElda being the singular main character!
Although zelda can still play a huge role while being kidnapped and unplayable! She could guide link, explain Enemies and serve as the menu or lend link her abilitys i mean she already does that to a certain degree!
Also Vengeance in a zelda game? I mean its possible although link goofing arround while being filled with vengeance is weird!
Also Duty and hope are already coverd by TOTK!

Also Zelda isnt my number 1 pick when it comes to diffrent playstyles for multiple reasons:
Number 1. Her MAin weapon are light arrows something link can do too!
number 2. Her Other Abilitiys include stuff Like Firring huge blasts of light and Openening locked doors not ideal for a playable TLOZ Character
and number 3 Better alternativs exist i think all the sage from totk would be more fun to play than zelda Swimmin g as sidon, dual wielding as riju, rolling arround as yunobo and flying as tulin!

Thats why i said Start with stealth and become op imagine something like magolor Epilouge in which an overpowered Character has to regain his powers before becoming unstopable by the end! But thats more Spinoff,/ Section Material as The Diffrent links stay relativly grounded in their abilitys!

Granted you could do stuff like have link and zelda team up to save their (Young Child) Altzhough stuff like that requires a huge zelda nerf!

I said young child cause bearded gruff link is the most cursed thing ever
I mean i prefer even him losing his iconic outfit over THIS:
View attachment 386866
They defintly handeld link being older and losing his arm in TOTK much better than this Yikes!

You didn’t mention that you were taking about being playable or main character on your post I originally commented. You just “playable” hence why I felt compelled to disagree with it as I feel a common theme amongst “playable Zelda” detractors is “link is the main character! Zelda is the princess! Zelda is a girl! Zelda is uninteresting” which is entirely and positively untrue. A playable Zelda and Link duo that could be used in tandem throughout the journey but also separately when the story calls for it. In addition “only using Light Arrows” is a very poor argument and shows a lack of creativity. I could name a dozen or more abilities including items that Zelda could from the top of my head that would feel different from Link while adding freshness and uniqueness. You are drawing too deep into what Zelda can do now and what she could do if given the chance. your arguments is the Smash equivalent of “that cant be in Smash cause they don’t have moveset potential”. It’s a very poor argument.

As for a Zelda-only led game, I for sure would not support it UNLESS it changes the formula Zelda uses immensely. It would need to feel very different from the original games. I do have faith it would be possible but it would need to be different from mainline games. Perhaps a castle town building simulator like FF’s “My Life as a King”.

Now, to contribute to the thread, I also think my interest in characters have extended to stages. I would love to see other games get some stages from established franchises; especially in the way of Pokémon, Kirby, Fire Emblem, and Yoshi. That is one reason why I like Smash64 Remix is for the uniqueness and diversity of games they pulled stages from.

 

[DarthEnderX]

They should make a Zelda game where Link & Zelda function like Jonathan & Charlotte from Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin.

 

[darkvortex]

Okay, this took a long time to make lol. I thought I'd try my hand at a Smash roster since everyone else is. First off, I'd much rather keep all the existing veterans and just add onto it but I thought I'd challenge myself a bit and keep the roster the same size as Ultimate. I know I seem to have weird tastes as far as the Smash community is concerned so I don't really expect many people to agree with what I went with. I tried to be at least semi-realistic and didn't include some of my favorites like Zegram that can't really make any case to be added. I do admit that there is a lot of personal bias in here as well. Basically, I wanted to make a roster I'd be really happy with that at least had some chance of actually happening.

View attachment 386813

If I cut any of your favorites, I apologize. Like I said, I really didn't want to cut anyone but I thought it might be more interesting to see who I'd cut if I had to to make room.

What are your thoughts?

This is pretty good. Some cuts I find questionable. I do think Pikmin deserves some form of rep and there's characters I like cut but I think it's would over all. Waluigi, Rauru, Lyn and Howard are all sensible new first party picks who I have no real issue with. Emmi does feel more like an AT to me but there's certainly potential. don't know enough about Pokemon to talk about the picks there. Not a fan of the Xeno pick tbh, would rather just have Noah and\or Mio.

Third parties make up a large part of this roster, though I don't really have an issue with that. Kunckles and Zero make a lot of sense as additions to existing series. Razer and Ryu are really fun picks for new NES era characters. League, Warriors, Mortal Kombat and Warcraft do feel more like "DLC" picks but they're all great choices in their own rights, deserving. Fullgore and Battletoads on top of Banjo might feel like a little too much Rare imo. Magnus was a choice I questioned at first but hearing you explain it has won me over. I think Tales of is deserving of a rep but I'm not a fan of the pick, would have went with Yuri or Loyld or something. I think Terry and Steve would have made sense to keep if you're going on this direction but it's your roster

 

[HyperSomari64]

This is pretty good. Some cuts I find questionable. I do think Pikmin deserves some form of rep and there's characters I like cut but I think it's would over all. Waluigi, Rauru, Lyn and Howard are all sensible new first party picks who I have no real issue with. Emmi does feel more like an AT to me but there's certainly potential. don't know enough about Pokemon to talk about the picks there. Not a fan of the Xeno pick tbh, would rather just have Noah and\or Mio.

Third parties make up a large part of this roster, though I don't really have an issue with that. Kunckles and Zero make a lot of sense as additions to existing series. Razer and Ryu are really fun picks for new NES era characters. League, Warriors, Mortal Kombat and Warcraft do feel more like "DLC" picks but they're all great choices in their own rights, deserving. Fullgore and Battletoads on top of Banjo might feel like a little too much Rare imo. Magnus was a choice I questioned at first but hearing you explain it has won me over. I think Tales of is deserving of a rep but I'm not a fan of the pick, would have went with Yuri or Loyld or something. I think Terry and Steve would have made sense to keep if you're going on this direction but it's your roster

Yeah, no. I don't think a cult movie from the 70s should be represented in a future Smash game.

 

[Amornal1]

Yeah, no. I don't think a cult movie from the 70s should be represented in a future Smash game.

I know you're joking , but just in case, he's talking about dynasty warriors

 

[Gengar84]

This is pretty good. Some cuts I find questionable. I do think Pikmin deserves some form of rep and there's characters I like cut but I think it's would over all. Waluigi, Rauru, Lyn and Howard are all sensible new first party picks who I have no real issue with. Emmi does feel more like an AT to me but there's certainly potential. don't know enough about Pokemon to talk about the picks there. Not a fan of the Xeno pick tbh, would rather just have Noah and\or Mio.

Third parties make up a large part of this roster, though I don't really have an issue with that. Kunckles and Zero make a lot of sense as additions to existing series. Razer and Ryu are really fun picks for new NES era characters. League, Warriors, Mortal Kombat and Warcraft do feel more like "DLC" picks but they're all great choices in their own rights, deserving. Fullgore and Battletoads on top of Banjo might feel like a little too much Rare imo. Magnus was a choice I questioned at first but hearing you explain it has won me over. I think Tales of is deserving of a rep but I'm not a fan of the pick, would have went with Yuri or Loyld or something. I think Terry and Steve would have made sense to keep if you're going on this direction but it's your roster

My main reason for Ouroboros is that it gives us something different the other Xenoblade characters haven’t yet. Noah alone is another sword user who has a lot of gameplay similarities to Shulk. Mio alone would work well but I’m not sure if she’d be strange without Noah there as well. The two as a team has already been done with the last Xenoblade pick in Pyra/Mythra so another pair so soon might feel too samey. The Ouroboros fusion is a new archetype of character that represents two characters without needing a transform gimmick or Ice Climber style duo since it’s a singular unit. I also think the Ouroboros fusion forms are really cool looking and would be very visually distinct from the rest of the cast.

Raven Beak makes more lore sense to get in over EMMI but I personally feel that EMMI captures the creepy vibe better. I’d be happy either way though.

I’ve mentioned a couple times but the Olimar omission was an error on my part. For some reason, I completely passed over him when looking at veterans. I’d probably cut Min Min for him if I was being biased but a third party cut could work too.

I wanted to keep Terry as he’s one of my mains in Ultimate but it’s really hard to keep the roster the same size while adding enough new content to be worth picking up. I figured Fulgore and Sub-Zero gave us two more fighting game reps so it made sense to cut one. Tekken and Street Fighter are both more generally popular than King of Fighters/Fatal Fury so I decided to cut Terry. I’d love to keep him and I probably would over some first party characters but the list is already leaning kind of heavy into third parties.

 

[Wonder Smash]

You know the traditional thing in Japanese crossover games is too do what Subspace Emmisary did and have a group of villains from different series doing their thing then reveal that an OC villain was pulling the strings the whole time.

I feel like if your going to have story cutscenes at all they should be like in visual novel format, that way you can have the characters who dont have voices talking to each other via dialogue bubbles and you wouldnt need to waste money getting the voice casts for the franchises together to do it.

That's traditional in Japanese crossover games? I thought that was a common thing in crossovers in general.

 

[Oracle Link]

Now, to contribute to the thread, I also think my interest in characters have extended to stages. I would love to see other games get some stages from established franchises; especially in the way of Pokémon, Kirby, Fire Emblem, and Yoshi. That is one reason why I like Smash64 Remix is for the uniqueness and diversity of games they pulled stages from.

Yeah more stages would be great i do think smash is lacking in villain and mid level stages only grassland and important citys/ Locations get chosen usually!
If i could 4 stages for a franchise it would be 1 Unique early game pick, ! Mid Game level, The main good guy base and a Main villain stage most other stages should fall under mid game level!

 

[DarthEnderX]

The main good guy base and a Main villain stage most other stages should fall under mid game level!

I always like to imagine what a Castle of Darkness where all the Smash villains hang out would be like.

Ganondorf, Dracula, Mother Brain and Andross are in the throne room, standing around a map of the WoL, planning their next invasion.

There's an arena where Meta Knight, Dark Pit, Shadow and Bass are fighting duels to see who's the strongest.

In the bar, Wolf, Wario, Waluigi and Majima are playing poker. King Dededede and K. Rool are gorging themselves on a feast.

Down in the hangar, Dr. Wily and Eggman are making modifications to the Wily Machine and the Death Egg Robot. Liquid Snake is waxing Metal Gear REX.

Ridley and Firebrand are perched above the main gate, watching for intruders to descend upon. Rathalos is asleep on the roof.

And at the center of the castle, Giygas sits contained within the Devil's Machine. Sephiroth and Mewtwo sit nearby, studying the entity...

 

[Hadokeyblade]

That's traditional in Japanese crossover games? I thought that was a common thing in crossovers in general.

Is it? Because whenever i see crossovers made in the west it's usually just the villains of both things teaming up, or both groups of heroes go up against one villain from the other thing.

An element of an OC exclusive to the crossover almost never comes up