Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[JOJONumber691]

I think we’re still talking about Art Styles, so I’ll just go in and say that the next game should focus on a more Cartoony-Anime Esc Art Direction that allows for everyone to be way more expressive. If you really want, maybe get ArcSys to help out with the visuals. It would be sick.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, it would help if you didn't have options beyond bootleg or emulation. Like, these are actually really cool games. Why not just rerelease them? Having Zelda 1 but with new options? That's awesome. And the other two are pretty cool on their own~

yeah nintendo does seem to want to forget the satellaveiw more than any of their other stuff. did they even get any spirits? i should look that up

 

[Opossum]

yeah nintendo does seem to want to forget the satellaveiw more than any of their other stuff. did they even get any spirits? i should look that up

They did. Hakkun is a spirit.

 

[fogbadge]

They did. Hakkun is a spirit.

thanks

 

[Nabbitfan730]

What if Smash 6 went for visual style like this?

This is the BEST looking Mega Man skin I've ever seen!
Mod and screenshots by Hero-Zerohttps://t.co/J8drsNiGra#SmashBrosUltimate #MegaMan #Rockman pic.twitter.com/du6jxvoikA

— Migz92398 🌐 (@Miguel92398) July 26, 2022

Ken Sugimori Inspired Pikachu [Super Smash Bros. Ultimate] [Mods] (gamebanana.com)

 

[CannonStreak]

What if Smash 6 went for visual style like this?

This is the BEST looking Mega Man skin I've ever seen!
Mod and screenshots by Hero-Zerohttps://t.co/J8drsNiGra#SmashBrosUltimate #MegaMan #Rockman pic.twitter.com/du6jxvoikA

— Migz92398 🌐 (@Miguel92398) July 26, 2022

Oh, that looks so cool!

Honestly, something inside of me feels that I doubt that they would go with something like that as an art style, but it would be cool, nonetheless!

 

[Hadokeyblade]

yeah nintendo does seem to want to forget the satellaveiw more than any of their other stuff. did they even get any spirits? i should look that up

I also want to give a mention to the third Famicom detective club game which was exclusive to the satellaview.

That feels like a weird desicion.

 

[fogbadge]

I also want to give a mention to the third Famicom detective club game which was exclusive to the satellaview.

That feels like a weird desicion.

not to mention the first toad game

 

[CannonStreak]

You know, considering that all Smash Bros. amiibos are out now, I wish to say: If Young Link, Pichu and other characters don't come back in the next Super Smash Bros. game, if at all, I hope they make new games where such characters are prominent so if amiibos are still usable by then, the Smash Bros. amiibos for such characters don't end up useless.

 

[fogbadge]

You know, considering that all Smash Bros. amiibos are out now, I wish to say: If Young Link, Pichu and other characters don't come back in the next Super Smash Bros. game, if at all, I hope they make new games where such characters are prominent so if amiibos are still usable by then, the Smash Bros. amiibos for such characters don't end up useless.

amiibo compatible games have certainly gone down in number recently

 

[CannonStreak]

amiibo compatible games have certainly gone down in number recently

Which is why I said "IF they were still usable in the future."

Honestly, if you ask me, I don't think they are going to last that long into the future.

 

[fogbadge]

Which is why I said "IF they were still usable in the future."

Honestly, if you ask me, I don't think they are going to last that long into the future.

shame really

 

[CannonStreak]

shame really

Of course.

But anyway, that initial comment I made about amiibos, again, was for IF they were usable in the future, which I am sure they won't be.....but you probably already knew that, as well as anyone else here.

But yeah, I could see some amiibos not being usable outside of Ultimate unless other new games outside the series were made to use them.

 

[Guynamednelson]

You know, considering that all Smash Bros. amiibos are out now, I wish to say: If Young Link, Pichu and other characters don't come back in the next Super Smash Bros. game, if at all, I hope they make new games where such characters are prominent so if amiibos are still usable by then, the Smash Bros. amiibos for such characters don't end up useless.

Was the Pikachu Amiibo compatible with Let's Go Pikachu? Because they never made an Eevee Amiibo for the other Let's Go game, and "Let's Go Pichu" is the only other game I can imagine being compatible with a Pichu Amiibo.

 

[CannonStreak]

Was the Pikachu Amiibo compatible with Let's Go Pikachu? Because they never made an Eevee Amiibo for the other Let's Go game, and "Let's Go Pichu" is the only other game I can imagine being compatible with a Pichu Amiibo.

I see. I can see see much less potential for the Pichu Smash Bros. amiibo being less usable in even other games outside of Smash based on what you said, if at all. In fact, I think the Young Link Smash Bros. amiibo would have better luck with games outside of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate than the Pichu amiibo would.

 

[Gorgonzales]

RE: Ridley Discussion

Ridley is passable, but I want him to be more than that. He really should be bigger, the fact that DK and K. Rool are bigger than him never stops feeling weird and off putting. He should be able to stay in the air longer. His throws are super lame and uninspired. And, I'm sorry, but you are never going to convince me that his current F-air is fitting of the character or a good move animation at all; it's super awkward, short ranged, and precise, like he's contorting his body in an unnatural way and unnecessarily limiting himself. I hate it.

They nailed his personality, Space Pirate Rush is a fantastic move and I'm so so glad it's there, I just want more from him... particularly, fixing the things that feel really wrong that I just mentioned. He feels like a concession (compare his size between his cinematic reveal trailer appearance and his in-game appearance); I know a lot of people here dislike that word, but I can't see it as anything else. Clearly there was a lot of stuff about him that had to be neutered/compromised to make him work, like they were scared of pushing the mold of what a fighter could be. That, and it felt like they were scared of making him too good.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Was the Pikachu Amiibo compatible with Let's Go Pikachu? Because they never made an Eevee Amiibo for the other Let's Go game, and "Let's Go Pichu" is the only other game I can imagine being compatible with a Pichu Amiibo.

I dont think any of the Pokemon amiibo are usable in anything outside of Smash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I dont think any of the Pokemon amiibo are usable in anything outside of Smash.

Some are usable in Super Mario Maker. Unfortunately, they were limited compared to other costumes due to TPC being picky.

A few amiibo actually got released way too late(like Ice Climbers and Daisy) and aren't compatible with it either.

...Right, 3DS version doesn't utilize the mystery costumes(though it is an item that be spawned via a glitch, it is basically just a Super Mushroom).

 

[DarthEnderX]

SF6 looks really Ugly. Yeah, Detail and Resolution is a lot greater than Smash but definitely at the cost of the Art Direction. I argue the Detail makes things worse for me.

It's not ugly, but it's definitely not what I wanted. I don't like "realistic" looking Street Fighter. I can appreciate the skill that went into making it and the level of quality on display, but it's just not for me.

I really wanted a modern Alpha-style cel-shaded anime Street Fighter.

What if Smash 6 went for visual style like this?

I would lose my **** if Smash went full cel-shaded! It would look so good like that. Especially since it's already a 2D game.

 

[Louie G.]

He feels like a concession (compare his size between his cinematic reveal trailer appearance and his in-game appearance); I know a lot of people here dislike that word, but I can't see it as anything else. Clearly there was a lot of stuff about him that had to be neutered/compromised to make him work, like they were scared of pushing the mold of what a fighter could be. That, and it felt like they were scared of making him too good.

This is the correct opinion regarding Ridley as a "concession". They were scared to push him further, because there was so much initial skepticism about his practicality. I take issue with the version of this that moreso implies Sakurai buckled into the pressure and added a character he never wanted to add. That's just an immature stance you'd take to refuse to admit you were wrong, that I've seen a handful of times.

It's very obvious that Ridley is limited, but it's in ways that are easily solvable and boil down to adjustments of his frame data and stats. Now that they see the pros and cons of this Ridley we currently have - he's kind of just a lower-mid tier at best, so we can talk about giving him more aerial options, dialing back on his horribly predictable and linear recovery options, giving him even stronger ranged options. I think when introducing something new or experimental into the game, you either reel back on it too far where the character feels handicapped or do the DLC thing and just let it dominate the game. I'd rather the former if anything, dipping their toes in and then seeing how deep they're allowed to swim.

His size honestly doesn't bother me very much, but if they want to start pushing that further I wouldn't mind. They'd just have to adjust a lot of other stuff to compensate for what is effectively gonna be a nerf, give him armor and more intense poke tools / emphasis on spacing out. It would have to be a bit more of a drastic rework so that'd just boil down to how many characters there are and how much time they want to spend on Ridley.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If Young Link, Pichu and other characters don't come back in the next Super Smash Bros. game, if at all, I hope they make new games where such characters are prominent so if amiibos are still usable by then, the Smash Bros. amiibos for such characters don't end up useless.

Well that's just silly.

"We want these amiibos to still be usuable. Should we A. Add them back into Smash? Or B. Develop entirely new, Amiibo-enabled games featuring prominent roles from Smash's least relevant characters?"

Just a gentle reminder that your opinion and what is factually right and factually wrong are different things. And trying to push your opinions as fact is just asking for things to get more heated than they need to be.

Reality conforms itself to my whims.

 

[Noipoi]

I wish Pokemon got its own dedicated Amiibo line. Like for the starters and legendaries of the newest generation, or something like that.

 

[Kirbeh]

Art Styles

I'll jump in and defend both SFV and SF6. I think V has a good art style but poor execution in certain areas and of varying degrees on a case by case basis for each character.

6 has a more realistic style which diverts from the more anime styled look of the most beloved (art wise) entries being the Alpha series and 3 series. The direction is imo genuinely great and the actual cast look great. It feels like a decent middle ground between being truly realistic and still dipping into a bit of the more stylized anime aesthetic.

However, this only applies to the actual fighters and a handful of prominent NPCs like Bosch. Everything else in the game is pretty standard "realism" which looks good for the most part but also runs into a few issues as while the blend is decent there are instances where it feels like the SF characters were dropped into the world and they just went "close enough." This is mainly a World Tour issue though, the Fighters themselves look amazing.

Even if I prefer the aesthetic of the older 2D titles 6's attention to detail is still impressive and looks good to me.

As for Smash, I do agree with the camp that feels Ultimate looks a bit off. Aside from the more washed out colors, I do echo the sentiment that more characters should lean into their original art styles more. Byleth looks great imo, Marth looks lost.

And to quickly chime in on Ridley as well, I'm glad he's finally in but he does leave a lot to be desired imo. I do think a good third of his moves need to be replaced with new ones. I'd personally make him a bit bigger too, along with increasing the upper limit of character sizes in general.

 

[fogbadge]

I wish Pokemon got its own dedicated Amiibo line. Like for the starters and legendaries of the newest generation, or something like that.

beyond just the massive detective pikachu and the shadow mewtwo card?

 

[Gorgonzales]

A cel-shaded style for the next Smash would be cool, like what Guilty Gear does.

 

[Noipoi]

beyond just the massive detective pikachu and the shadow mewtwo card?

Yes, precisely. That's literally exactly what I'm asking for. Main series Pokemon Amiibo

 

[fogbadge]

Yes, precisely. That's literally exactly what I'm asking for. Main series Pokemon Amiibo

a little fuecoco model would have been nice

until I got banned from here from the deluge of pics of it a my fuecoco plush I would post

 

[Kirbeh]

A cel-shaded style for the next Smash would be cool, like what Guilty Gear does.

Art aside I just want GG and BB to get into Smash. Somewhat unrelated but I would want the Smash announcer to be replaced when fighting on ArcSys stages.

I want to hear "The wheel of fate is turning. Rebel 1" in Smash.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I want to hear "The wheel of fate is turning. Rebel 1" in Smash.

"Can't Escape from Crossing Fate" would fit well too

 

[Arcanir]

On Ridley, I was reading through the Competitive thread a few days back and they were talking about Ridley due to a few recent matches at the time (including Light/Smub). Overall, his base kit is good, all of his tilts are good, most of his aerials are good, FSmash and USmash are good with practical uses, and Plasma Breath can help condition the opponent/even camp. He's not a character fully lacking as he has the moves to be a great character already, he just needs some tweaks to better deal with camping or opponents that can overwhelm him with their speed.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Art aside I just want GG and BB to get into Smash. Somewhat unrelated but I would want the Smash announcer to be replaced when fighting on ArcSys stages.

"MANKIND KNEW THEY CANNOT CHANGE SOCIETY
SO INSTEAD OF REFLECTING ON THEMSELVES, THEY BLAMED THE BEASTS
HEAVEN OR HELL
LET'S ROCK"

the opponent in question:

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

A character being top or bottom tier doesn't impact much for 95% of the people who play them. I don't think there's any character in Ultimate that straight up feels bad to play as in a casual setting... Maybe 0% Lucario but that's the point.

So yeah, Ridley's well designed, like most characters in the game. They could tweak a couple details to really unleash his competitive potential, but they did a good job.

 

[Perkilator]

A cel-shaded style for the next Smash would be cool, like what Guilty Gear does.

Art aside I just want GG and BB to get into Smash.

Even better; if a Guilty Gear character got into Smash Bridget’s the character I would pick then I want them to be animated the way they are in Strive.

 

[Garteam]

Smash's artstyle is one of those things that doesn't need to be fixed because it isn't broken. The cartoony/anime art style mixed with slightly more realism on clothing and hair is pretty genius because it allows characters with a massive range of designs to become homogenized in a unified style while still keeping their defining characteristics. It's pretty impressive that Mario, Cloud, Pikachu, Samus, Mega Man and Kazuya can stand next to each other while simultaneously looking recognizable and natural.

Tilt the needle substantially in either direction and you lose this balance, which comes at the detriment of the characters. Snake stops looking like how he does in Metal Gear if things are too abstract, while Kirby will stop looking like he does in Kirby if things get too photorealistic. I really think the only thing about Ultimate's visual presentation that could be improved upon is that some of the characters look a little desaturated, but increasing the brightness of the colours should really be done on a character-by-character basis in the interest of not making characters with more muted colour schemes into neon lights.

Getting Arc System Works animations would be cool from a spectator standpoint, but it's also the sort of thing that disrupts the flow of battle and takes up a ton of development time. Games with a lot of players in particular would be less fun if the screen was always zooming in on particular players around the stage because people are constantly letting off attacks with cinematic animations. There's a reason Ultimate's changes that seek to make gameplay more cinematic (zooming in on powerful attacks, zooming in on finishing blows, Kazuya's throws, etc.) are short and/or are altered to not be used outside of one-on-ones. In terms of dev time, having to rework each veteran to fit this new artstyle would guarantee that we'd lose over half of Ultimate's roster in the transition to the next Smash, which would ravage the game critically in spite of any positive reception of the new art style.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Smash's artstyle is one of those things that doesn't need to be fixed because it isn't broken. The cartoony/anime art style mixed with slightly more realism on clothing and hair is pretty genius because it allows characters with a massive range of designs to become homogenized in a unified style while still keeping their defining characters. It's pretty impressive that Mario, Cloud, Pikachu, Samus, Mega Man and Kazuya can stand next to each other while simultaneously looking recognizable and natural.

Tilt the needle substantially in either direction and you lose this balance, which comes at the detriment of the characters. Snake stops looking like how he does in Metal Gear if things are too abstract, while Kirby will stop looking like he does in Kirby if things get too photorealistic. I really think the only thing about Ultimate's visual presentation that could be improved upon is that some of the characters look a little desaturated, but increasing the brightness of the colours should really be done on a character-by-character basis in the interest of not making characters with more muted colour schemes into neon lights.

Getting Arc System Works animations would be cool from a spectator standpoint, but it's also the sort of thing that disrupts the flow of battle and takes up a ton of development time. Games with a lot of players in particular would be less fun if the screen was always zooming in on particular players around the stage because people are constantly letting off attacks with cinematic animations. There's a reason Ultimate's changes that seek to make gameplay more cinematic (zooming in on powerful attacks, zooming in on finishing blows, Kazuya's throws, etc.) are short and/or are altered to not be used outside of one-on-ones. In terms of dev time, having to rework each veteran to fit this new artstyle would guarantee that we'd lose over half of Ultimate's roster in the transition to the next Smash, which would ravage the game critically in spite of any positive reception of the new art style.

I agree with you that Smash's art style isn't broken, but that doesn't mean I think it wouldn't be interesting to take it in new directions. I mean, Brawl had a gritty-realistic style and the more cartoony characters like from Mario and Kirby still could fit in there, I don't see how taking things in the other direction could potentially make Snake or Cloud look unrecognizable. They wouldn't look how they do in their home games, sure, but neither did a majority of the characters in Brawl, and if I'm being honest I didn't care as it was cool to see all of these characters united into this one singular style. You can only push Ultimate and 4's "middle ground for everyone" style so far until every game onward becomes barely distinguishable from its predecessors; Heck, it's kind of hard to distinguish Smash 4 from Ultimate as-is, providing you're not looking at the UI.

When I mention Arcsys as an inspiration, I don't mean I literally want them to re-animate everything, no. I'm not envisioning super cinematic effects/animations for everyone, I just think a cel-shaded look could be great. Maybe something closer to Xrd than Strive, but I like both styles regardless. I really do think there's a way to make it work, Smash 3DS was the closest thing we have to a cel-shaded Smash and the characters still look like themselves, and that style is one of the most recognizable in the series. You see a Smash 3DS screenshot and go, "awww yeah, that's Smash 3DS", and it's the same thing for SSB64, Melee, and Brawl. I love seeing crossovers unite different characters into one palette, and it's cool to see that style change between games.

 

[Garteam]

I agree with you that Smash's art style isn't broken, but that doesn't mean I think it wouldn't be interesting to take it in new directions. I mean, Brawl had a gritty-realistic style and the more cartoony characters like from Mario and Kirby still could fit in there, I don't see how taking things in the other direction could potentially make Snake or Cloud look unrecognizable. They wouldn't look how they do in their home games, sure, but neither did a majority of the characters in Brawl, and if I'm being honest I didn't care as it was cool to see all of these characters united into this one singular style. You can only push Ultimate and 4's "middle ground for everyone" style so far until every game onward becomes barely distinguishable from its predecessors; Heck, it's kind of hard to distinguish Smash 4 from Ultimate as-is, providing you're not looking at the UI.

When I mention Arcsys as an inspiration, I don't mean I literally want them to re-animate everything, no. I'm not envisioning super cinematic effects/animations for everyone, I just think a cel-shaded look could be great. Maybe something closer to Xrd than Strive, but I like both styles regardless. I really do think there's a way to make it work, Smash 3DS was the closest thing we have to a cel-shaded Smash and the characters still look like themselves, and that style is one of the most recognizable in the series. You see a Smash 3DS screenshot and go, "awww yeah, that's Smash 3DS", and it's the same thing for SSB64, Melee, and Brawl. I love seeing crossovers unite different characters into one palette, and it's cool to see that style change between games.

View attachment 385093
View attachment 385094

While I can appreciate Brawl's art style for its ambition and the fact that Sakurai was able to make such an artistic choice despite working with so many IPs, I'd still say that Brawl is the second-worst Smash game visually behind the original. Brawl's realism generally makes the game look muddier and more washed-out relative to Melee, Smash for Wii U/3DS, and Ultimate. Likewise, while Brawl's realism didn't make any character unrecognizable, it did make a lot of characters look worse than in their home series. The Mario cast is a good example of this, as the desaturated palette and detail in their hair and clothing never looked quite right relative to the character's cartoony proportions and made the designs pop less than in most other Mario products. It worked with characters that trended more towards photorealism already, like the Twilight Princess cast and Snake, but I don't think an art style with clear losers is better than one that balances the quality of design across the roster.

ASW games look really good, but there's a lot more going on beyond cel-shading to make them look as they do. There's a lot of creative interweaving of animations and camera work to create the sense that you're playing a piece of traditional animation, which really elevates the game's visuals beyond just the sum of their texture work and models. Similarly, most AWS games feature the studio's original cast, which allows them to tweak designs to better fit a specific game's art direction. Smash's use of licensed characters limits both how much designs can be altered and it creates an expectation that characters look as they did in their source material. Even if you could get Snake and Kazuya looking good in a cel-shaded art style, how many minor elements of their design need to be lost for this to happen and will Konami/Namco Bandai go for it?

I get wanting the next Smash to have its own visual identity but I think changing Smash to be less functional or effective in the interest of distinguishing the next entry from Ultimate is generally a bad idea. People want the characters in Smash to look, feel, and generally play as they do in their original entries. Ultimate did this very well (most of the time), so I think staying the course is the correct play. Novel interpretations of established characters are fun when done well, but I don't think a crossover is the proper venue for that sort of thing unless the original character was so underdeveloped as to need some new life breathed into them (like with Pit or Duck Hunt).

 

[DarthEnderX]

Art aside I just want GG and BB to get into Smash.

Whatever gets me one step closer to Kunio.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Even better; if a Guilty Gear character got into Smash Bridget’s the character I would pick then I want them to be animated the way they are in Strive.

I dont play guilty gear but i genuinely want this, i think it would be awesome if Sol was animated like this

 

[NintenRob]

While I can appreciate Brawl's art style for its ambition and the fact that Sakurai was able to make such an artistic choice despite working with so many IPs, I'd still say that Brawl is the second-worst Smash game visually behind the original. Brawl's realism generally makes the game look muddier and more washed-out relative to Melee, Smash for Wii U/3DS, and Ultimate. Likewise, while Brawl's realism didn't make any character unrecognizable, it did make a lot of characters look worse than in their home series. The Mario cast is a good example of this, as the desaturated palette and detail in their hair and clothing never looked quite right relative to the character's cartoony proportions and made the designs pop less than in most other Mario products. It worked with characters that trended more towards photorealism already, like the Twilight Princess cast and Snake, but I don't think an art style with clear losers is better than one that balances the quality of design across the roster.

ASW games look really good, but there's a lot more going on beyond cel-shading to make them look as they do. There's a lot of creative interweaving of animations and camera work to create the sense that you're playing a piece of traditional animation, which really elevates the game's visuals beyond just the sum of their texture work and models. Similarly, most AWS games feature the studio's original cast, which allows them to tweak designs to better fit a specific game's art direction. Smash's use of licensed characters limits both how much designs can be altered and it creates an expectation that characters look as they did in their source material. Even if you could get Snake and Kazuya looking good in a cel-shaded art style, how many minor elements of their design need to be lost for this to happen and will Konami/Namco Bandai go for it?

I get wanting the next Smash to have its own visual identity but I think changing Smash to be less functional or effective in the interest of distinguishing the next entry from Ultimate is generally a bad idea. People want the characters in Smash to look, feel, and generally play as they do in their original entries. Ultimate did this very well (most of the time), so I think staying the course is the correct play. Novel interpretations of established characters are fun when done well, but I don't think a crossover is the proper venue for that sort of thing unless the original character was so underdeveloped as to need some new life breathed into them (like with Pit or Duck Hunt).

People often bring up the Mario characters as looking notably worst. And understandably so. The realistic textures on the clothes make it stand out more.

But I want to give a shout-out to Pokémon as well for looking kinda whack. Especially Pikachu. I don't think Pikachu looks good in that game no matter what angle or pose you do. Even the render looks off.

 

[Perkilator]

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