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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Louie G.

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Ridley's perfectly fine to me and is one of my favorite characters in the game. There are a couple awkward bits about him - just like many other characters before him, on their first go around. That's gonna happen especially when he was perceived as such a challenge to begin with, and he was probably neutered a little more than necessary out of fear of being too strong. But nothing about him feels forced, just dialed back. Seeing how Ridley has never felt especially overbearing or strong compared to other fighters there's a lot of room to start loosening the reigns a bit and letting him reach his fuller potential.
 
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superprincess

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Not to be a hater, but this also sums up why Ridley feels a bit off to me in Ultimate. To me, he's quite awkwardly designed, and almost feels forced.
I totally understand that. They nailed his cruel and vicious nature, but his overall stature feels quite cramped and he comes off as kind of frail.

I personally enjoy playing as him, but improvements obviously need to be made. Let him stand a bit taller, make him heavier, give him a better aerial presence & recovery, remove his kicks or make him scratch with his talons instead of kicking, and most importantly replace that god awful down air with his recurring downward tail strike.

This would do a lot to help Ridley feel more like himself imo.

Seeing how Ridley has never felt especially overbearing or strong compared to other fighters there's a lot of room to start loosening the reigns a bit and letting him reach his fuller potential.
Sakurai doesn't exactly love changing fighters, especially ones who were just introduced in the latest title. I mean, look at all the SSB4 newcomers in Ultimate; most of them are practically ported in. Which is why I fear Ridley will stay the way he currently is :/
 

Louie G.

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Sakurai doesn't exactly love changing fighters, especially ones who were just introduced in the latest title. I mean, look at all the SSB4 newcomers in Ultimate; most of them are practically ported in. Which is why I fear Ridley will stay the way he currently is :/
Honestly I don't need them to change his moveset all that much, just make him stronger in the areas he already has which is par for the course with underprivileged characters from previous games. I'd welcome some moveset alterations, and maybe those will come with a slightly condensed roster, but I can see them making some adjustments to his air speed and hopefully an extra jump is on the table so he can mixup a little better.

Little Mac got some pretty meaningful adjustments to his recovery, and he still sucks but even just "doesn't go into freefall" is a pretty major change to his overall feel. Ridley isn't in such dire straits but I'm sure considerations will still be granted to newer faces.
 
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Quillion

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I totally understand that. They nailed his cruel and vicious nature, but his overall stature feels quite cramped and he comes off as kind of frail.

I personally enjoy playing as him, but improvements obviously need to be made. Let him stand a bit taller, make him heavier, give him a better aerial presence & recovery, remove his kicks or make him scratch with his talons instead of kicking, and most importantly replace that god awful down air with his recurring downward tail strike.

This would do a lot to help Ridley feel more like himself imo.
I think Ridley may have been held back by forcing him to adhere to Bowser being the upper limit of being the biggest character.

Like, why can't Ridley be the biggest character? Or failing that, make them both bigger so that Ridley has more room to work with. Forcing his lengthy body shape into something Bowser-sized just looks awkward (though not as much as what fans tried to do).
 

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I really like Ridley in Ultimate and don't really have any real criticism for the most part. But I would like him UpB to function a little differently. The directions you're forced into with that attack feel very awkward.
 

DarthEnderX

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Not to be a hater, but this also sums up why Ridley feels a bit off to me in Ultimate. To me, he's quite awkwardly designed, and almost feels forced.
He was perfectly suited to being a Boss. And just ended up being shoehorned into being a Fighter due to fan demand.
 

AreJay25

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Gonna join in on the "Ridley is fine" train, for the most part at least. He's one of the most fun characters in the game imo.

Still, I think he could benefit from a few changes. People harp on his up-b and dair, and I don't disagree, but I'd also like to bring attention to his bair. I just don't... particularly think it's a super fitting animation for him lol, even if it's actually a pretty solid move. But outside of those couple of things (and of course some decent balance changes), I don't mind him staying relatively similar.
 

Nabbitfan730

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I hope the Switch is put to bed this year. I absolutely adore its games, but the hardware is actually garbage imo. I'm ready for something new.

Also, sorta unrelated but not really, I've been playing a lot of SF6 on PS5 lately and wow... its attention to detail puts Smash to shame. The characters literally feel alive. Smash's are like empty soulless husks in comparison. And that kinda degrades Smash's crossover appeal imo. The roster is big, sure, but sometimes gives me a MUGEN vibe with the lack of soul in some characters.
As along as the Switch still selling it ain't going to bed anytime soon.

Ignoring the fact a game bulit on 2020's Home Console compared to a game on a 2017 Handheld looking better isn't a shock, I really, REALLY Disagree here.

SF6 looks really Ugly. Yeah, Detail and Resolution is a lot greater than Smash but definitely at the cost of the Art Direction. I argue the Detail makes things worse for me. It's quite odd as 5 looked very good and that was on PS4.
 

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SF6 looks really Ugly. Yeah, Detail and Resolution is a lot greater than Smash but definitely at the cost of the Art Direction. I argue the Detail makes things worse for me. It's quite odd as 5 looked very good and that was on PS4.
I am a noted SFV defender.

But not even I can defend this opinion.
 

Nabbitfan730

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Maybe not but there is something about 6 that is quite unappealing in it's looks compared to 5 or even other contemporaries. Tekken 8 looks good.
 

superprincess

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SFV is ugly as sin, let's not lie. You can dislike SF6's art direction – whatever that means – but its characters look phenomenal, and the blend of their detail with the neon/cel shaded effects that emphasize some moves is really cool.

I didn't even say Smash should join SF6 in levels of detail and rendering. That's pretty much impossible, because Nintendo's consoles always lag behind in power.

Speaking of "art direction"; I'm glad you mentioned it, because Ultimate has none. Some characters are tweaked in their transition, while others look like they jumped out their games. Marth and the rest of the FE cast have been "Smashified", while Byleth retains the Three Houses art style. Pyra/Mythra have an anime art style that no one else in the game has. They made no effort to adapt her into the world of Smash.

What Smash should absolutely do is at least try to make its characters look and feel "real" and lively. It doesn't help that Ultimate's art style makes everyone look washed out and clay-like, but some characters have issues down to their models. One of my most wanted changes in the next game and the reason I hope it isn't a port of Ultimate, is visual updates for everyone. It's just unforgivable how botched some characters are in Ultimate.
 

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SFV is ugly as sin, let's not lie. You can dislike SF6's art direction – whatever that means – but its characters look phenomenal, and the blend of their detail with the neon/cel shaded effects that emphasize some moves is really cool.

I didn't even say Smash should join SF6 in levels of detail and rendering. That's pretty much impossible, because Nintendo's consoles always lag behind in power.

Speaking of "art direction"; I'm glad you mentioned it, because Ultimate has none. Some characters are tweaked in their transition, while others look like they jumped out their games. Marth and the rest of the FE cast have been "Smashified", while Byleth retains the Three Houses art style. Pyra/Mythra have an anime art style that no one else in the game has. They made no effort to adapt her into the world of Smash.

What Smash should absolutely do is at least try to make its characters look and feel "real" and lively. It doesn't help that Ultimate's art style makes everyone look washed out and clay-like, but some characters have issues down to their models. One of my most wanted changes in the next game and the reason I hope it isn't a port of Ultimate, is visual updates for everyone. It's just unforgivable how botched some characters are in Ultimate.
Wrong, Smash has an art direction.
 

superprincess

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Wrong, Smash has an art direction.
And it's all over the place. The general principle is to add more detail to the cartoony characters, while simplifying the more realistic characters, in an effort to bring them closer together.

Which doesn't even apply sometimes. Byleth looks the exact same as in Three Houses, even carrying the art style from that game and contrasting with their FE peers. Pyra/Mythra look like they jumped out of an anime, in a game where literally no one else is modeled in that art style. It's all over the place.

It also falls flat because some characters are botched beyond recognition. Bowser, Peach, Young Link, ZSS, Shulk, Chrom? Yikes.

Ultimate's art direction just wasn't executed well. Unless the goal was washed out, soulless husks of these characters; then I guess it succeeded.

well an argument could be made that censoring them was an adaptation
No, because it wasn't an artistic choice. It was a change made out of obligation to keep the age rating low.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Ridley is an amazing addition. Could use some sprucing up, sure, but he's really fun and cool. His new model looks really awesome as well, and he feels very intimidating and strong overall. Sure, he's not literally super strong in gameplay, and that's fine. He still has the proper personality. He feels right in that regard.

He, King K. Rool, and Chrom were easily my favorite additions of the base game. All major characters and really earned their place. Incidentally, favorite DLC characters are Terry, Steve/Alex, and Sephiroth. I loved playing the SNK games, Minecraft absolutely earned it spots, and Sephiroth(and Aerith) are my favorite FFVII characters. So I was glad we got that kickass costume~
 

fogbadge

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And it's all over the place. The general principle is to add more detail to the cartoony characters, while simplifying the more realistic characters, in an effort to bring them closer together.

Which doesn't even apply sometimes. Byleth looks the exact same as in Three Houses, even carrying the art style from that game and contrasting with their FE peers. Pyra/Mythra look like they jumped out of an anime, in a game where literally no one else is modeled in that art style. It's all over the place.

It also falls flat because some characters are botched beyond recognition. Bowser, Peach, Young Link, ZSS, Shulk, Chrom? Yikes.

Ultimate's art direction just wasn't executed well. Unless the goal was washed out, soulless husks of these characters; then I guess it succeeded.


No, because it wasn't an artistic choice. It was a change made out of obligation to keep the age rating low.
well then chock it up to it being dlc and they didn’t have the time
 

NonSpecificGuy

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And it's all over the place. The general principle is to add more detail to the cartoony characters, while simplifying the more realistic characters, in an effort to bring them closer together.

Which doesn't even apply sometimes. Byleth looks the exact same as in Three Houses, even carrying the art style from that game and contrasting with their FE peers. Pyra/Mythra look like they jumped out of an anime, in a game where literally no one else is modeled in that art style. It's all over the place.

It also falls flat because some characters are botched beyond recognition. Bowser, Peach, Young Link, ZSS, Shulk, Chrom? Yikes.

Ultimate's art direction just wasn't executed well. Unless the goal was washed out, soulless husks of these characters; then I guess it succeeded.


No, because it wasn't an artistic choice. It was a change made out of obligation to keep the age rating low.
I think having the art direction be all over the place is kinda the point. There’s a reason why Sakurai made Steve look as close as possible to his in game Minecraft version and not clean him up a lot. Having the clashing art styles is part of the charm. You want the character to look like the character first and foremost. You could go around and give everyone the same artstyle sure but a lot of the reason they don’t is because that style is important to the character.

You COULD change the look of say, Hero to have them fit more in line with the rest of the cast but the very reason that they stand out makes them special. The Dragon Quest artstyle is iconic and the transition would lose a lot if it wasn’t kept. Seeing “hey, there’s a new Dragon Quest character” and it not looking like Akira Toriyama’s art is just wrong.

You seem to be focusing in on Byleth and Pyra a lot but in all honesty? Those characters sticking out never crossed my mind. Byleth, to me, looks on par with the other FE characters. They got rid of F!Byleths “big ol’ eyes” and they have adapted them to better fit smash so I’m not really sure what makes them stand out. Pyra and Mythra stand out, sure but that’s purely because of them adhering to the original Xenoblade 2 art style. Without that artstyle P and M would lose a lot of their charm.

Long story short, charm over consistency. Now I agree characters like DK and Shulk need to be overhauled but Pyra and Byleth aren’t the ones that need it.
 

superprincess

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Just a gentle reminder that your opinion and what is factually right and factually wrong are different things. And trying to push your opinions as fact is just asking for things to get more heated than they need to be.
No one's trying to do that. Y'all can like how Ultimate looks. The sentiment that it looks bad will still be pretty common. Ultimate botched some of my favorites so I'm allowed to feel strongly about its ugly (To Me) rendering. But I'm not saying you aren't allowed to like it. Some people are fans of the washed out clay-like look. Aren't the characters supposed to be toys after all?

I think having the art direction be all over the place is kinda the point. There’s a reason why Sakurai made Steve look as close as possible to his in game Minecraft version and not clean him up a lot. Having the clashing art styles is part of the charm. You want the character to look like the character first and foremost. You could go around and give everyone the same artstyle sure but a lot of the reason they don’t is because that style is important to the character.

You COULD change the look of say, Hero to have them fit more in line with the rest of the cast but the very reason that they stand out makes them special. The Dragon Quest artstyle is iconic and the transition would lose a lot if it wasn’t kept. Seeing “hey, there’s a new Dragon Quest character” and it not looking like Akira Toriyama’s art is just wrong.

You seem to be focusing in on Byleth and Pyra a lot but in all honesty? Those characters sticking out never crossed my mind. Byleth, to me, looks on par with the other FE characters. They got rid of F!Byleths “big ol’ eyes” and they have adapted them to better fit smash so I’m not really sure what makes them stand out. Pyra and Mythra stand out, sure but that’s purely because of them adhering to the original Xenoblade 2 art style. Without that artstyle P and M would lose a lot of their charm.

Long story short, charm over consistency. Now I agree characters like DK and Shulk need to be overhauled but Pyra and Byleth aren’t the ones that need it.
I somewhat agree with "charm over consistency" but even that isn't... consistent across the board. Hero and Steve retaining their iconic art styles is mostly fine because they're the sole reps of their series. Adds to the "different worlds collide" element. My problem with Byleth and Aegis is that they clash with fighters from the same universe as them.

Inconsistency can be charming in Smash's case. But if it is going for that, then go all the way. The Mario Bros. are given realistic denim, the princess are given Victorian-era detailed dresses, Bowser's given realistic scales. All of them have washed out color schemes. It's weird that they get their designs touched up, but others are straight out their games.

If we're gonna have everyone look the same as they do in their series then stick to that. If we're gonna have a consistent style like Brawl/Melee, also stick to that. Ultimate doesn't seem to know what it wants to do.

And the lighting and modeling issues don't help imo.
 
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fogbadge

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Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t some of the models ripped directly from the source games? I’m fairly certain min min was. And pythra
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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Pyra and Shulk do look like they come from different games, but... that's the case. Shulk in Smash is based on Xenoblade 1's original art style, which is very different from the one they adopted from 2 onwards.

I want to give a shout out to how good of a job they did with Banjo & Kazooie. Their animations have a ton of bells and whistles and more funny details than pretty much any other character (I'm thinking about the way Banjo shakes his feet during their down aerial, or when he pulls Kazooie's legs to make her spit an egg during Breegull Blaster, and of course their crazy ledge hanging animation) and they're always super expressive. It's great!
 

NintenRob

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No one's trying to do that. Y'all can like how Ultimate looks. The sentiment that it looks bad will still be pretty common. Ultimate botched some of my favorites so I'm allowed to feel strongly about its ugly (To Me) rendering. But I'm not saying you aren't allowed to like it. Some people are fans of the washed out clay-like look. Aren't the characters supposed to be toys after all?
You say that, but even this post reads as if you're talking down to those who do like it. Especially the "Some people people are fans of washed out clay-like look."

Perhaps that's unintentional on your part, or perhaps even misinterpretive on mine. But it's the sort of thing I really want to avoid as we approach a new Smash cycle. This condescending talk where everyone else who disagrees with me is wrong. It just feels so unnecessary.
 

Sucumbio

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I think the contrast between melee and brawl was more jarring to the eyes than brawl to 4/ultimate. But I also think all 4 (5 with 3ds) games "look" great. They may not have the super polished look of some other system's fighters (VF4Evo on ps3 is amazing) but for the concept itself it's still really great, plus it's kinda abnormal for a lot of these characters to be rendered in super high quality life like graphics, like game and watch lol makes sense for him to be "plain"... And yet the details on the characters that DO warrant extra detail get it, like fabric textures, shading and tones, etc. Even if Switch 2 is ps4 powerful I don't see them reanimating every character or drastically altering their appearance. Unless we wanna wait 10 years for the next game lol
 

Nabbitfan730

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SFV is ugly as sin, let's not lie. You can dislike SF6's art direction – whatever that means – but its characters look phenomenal, and the blend of their detail with the neon/cel shaded effects that emphasize some moves is really cool.

I didn't even say Smash should join SF6 in levels of detail and rendering. That's pretty much impossible, because Nintendo's consoles always lag behind in power
I'm not lying. SFV, despite going for realistic look, still looks very lively and vivid with it's use of colors of the fighters, the special effects like auras, lighting, shocked, the exaggeration and flashiness from the attacks and the bit of cel-shading giving a pop-art comic-like showing that makes stand out.

Funny you say that last sentence because despite being on more powerful hardware, SF6 does remind me alot of a typical third-party Switch port. Most of characters look way too shiny, smeared and washed out as if they all been smothered with Vaseline and Mud. You can really tell too with characters like Ryu, Chun-Li and Blanka. Outdated on release.

"Phenomenal" for Clay, Mud sculpture in Art Class? Sure. Could be alot more easier on the eyes tho.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Can’t say I’ve ever found the difference between smash entries looks all that jarring. But that could be as a Zelda fan I’ve gotten used to it
Really, the only thing you can tell between some Zelda games is how many max colors they can use due to the system they're on. :p Joking aside, yeah, they're highly varied colorful games. ...Even TP, the darkest game(literally and figuratively speaking).

Albeit, I do like its aesthetics too. I liked the mature story as well. I like WW's colorfulness in its own way. I think that's what's great; they aren't games that consistently look alike. ...That said, I would love to see a US release of the BS Zelda trilogy~
 

superprincess

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You say that, but even this post reads as if you're talking down to those who do like it. Especially the "Some people people are fans of washed out clay-like look."

Perhaps that's unintentional on your part, or perhaps even misinterpretive on mine. But it's the sort of thing I really want to avoid as we approach a new Smash cycle. This condescending talk where everyone else who disagrees with me is wrong. It just feels so unnecessary.
Didn't talk down to anyone. Not everyone who likes Ultimate's visuals is wrong. I won't concede and say they're great, but y'all can like them, obviously.
I'm not lying. SFV, despite going for realistic look, still looks very lively and vivid with it's use of colors of the fighters, the special effects like auras, lighting, shocked, the exaggeration and flashiness from the attacks and the bit of cel-shading giving a pop-art comic-like showing that makes stand out.

Funny you say that last sentence because despite being on more powerful hardware, SF6 does remind me alot of a typical third-party Switch port. Most of characters look way too shiny, smeared and washed out as if they all been smothered with Vaseline and Mud. You can really tell too with characters like Ryu, Chun-Li and Blanka. Outdated on release.

"Phenomenal" for Clay, Mud sculpture in Art Class? Sure. Could be alot more easier on the eyes tho.
Funny you say that because Ultimate has the exact same issues but amplified because it's on the Switch.

Arguing about Ultimate's visuals isn't gonna get us anywhere though, so what do you want Smash 6's visual theme to be?
 

fogbadge

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Really, the only thing you can tell between some Zelda games is how many max colors they can use due to the system they're on. :p Joking aside, yeah, they're highly varied colorful games. ...Even TP, the darkest game(literally and figuratively speaking).

Albeit, I do like its aesthetics too. I liked the mature story as well. I like WW's colorfulness in its own way. I think that's what's great; they aren't games that consistently look alike. ...That said, I would love to see a US release of the BS Zelda trilogy~
yeah I love how loz can reinvent its look all the time and I hope they do it again for whatever comes next

Being able to play some of the BS games would be something
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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yeah I love how loz can reinvent its look all the time and I hope they do it again for whatever comes next

Being able to play some of the BS games would be something
Yeah, it would help if you didn't have options beyond bootleg or emulation. Like, these are actually really cool games. Why not just rerelease them? Having Zelda 1 but with new options? That's awesome. And the other two are pretty cool on their own~
 

Nabbitfan730

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Funny you say that because Ultimate has the exact same issues but amplified because it's on the Switch.

Arguing about Ultimate's visuals isn't gonna get us anywhere though,
"No u" type-response was definitely an option.

Especially when I didn't even mention Ultimate.
 
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Didn't talk down to anyone. Not everyone who likes Ultimate's visuals is wrong. I won't concede and say they're great, but y'all can like them, obviously.
Regardless of whether or not you think you are talking down to people, it's how it comes across sometimes.

To give an example of what I'm talking about, let's say you come into this place and everyone is talking about how terrible a character Peach is. You chirpy in saying how you actually like Peach and think she's great

One person replies. "That's ok. I don't personally like her though. What do you like about Peach?"

Another replies. "What is there to like about Peach? if you want to like a literal plank of wood. The more power to you."


Which one are you likely to respond positively to and which are you likely respond negatively to. The meaning behind both posts are essentially the same but there's a clear difference in tone.

I just want to encourage people try and lean more towards the former rather than the later
 

superprincess

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"No u" type-response was definitely an option.

Especially when I didn't even mention Ultimate.
I just mentioned y'all defending Ultimate's look while shading SF6 is hypocritical. But I admittedly don't care that much to get into a whole argument about SF6 visuals. You don't like them, I do, let's agree to disagree and move on from this convo.
 

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Smash 4 brought huge glow-ups to Toon Link and most of the realistic serious-looking fighters. Made the colors vibrant while still keeping the detailing from Brawl. Captain Falcon and Ganondorf were the only exceptions. (both of them having a parent-clone relation is a funny coincidence, come to think of it)

Ultimate didn't make things gritty like in Brawl, but just washed out the saturation, and gave a Fresnel effect to the models which looks weird a lot. Would go with Smash 4's design at the moment.
 
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what do you want Smash 6's visual theme to be?
About this however, this is less a desire and more prediction. But I could see the art style being something much more flashy than we've seen before. Think the CGI when first revealing Smash 3DS where all the characters were glowing in colour. Or more in line with like Min Mins trailer. Something just drastically different to what we've seen before.
 

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And it's all over the place. The general principle is to add more detail to the cartoony characters, while simplifying the more realistic characters, in an effort to bring them closer together.

Which doesn't even apply sometimes. Byleth looks the exact same as in Three Houses, even carrying the art style from that game and contrasting with their FE peers. Pyra/Mythra look like they jumped out of an anime, in a game where literally no one else is modeled in that art style. It's all over the place.

It also falls flat because some characters are botched beyond recognition. Bowser, Peach, Young Link, ZSS, Shulk, Chrom? Yikes.

Ultimate's art direction just wasn't executed well. Unless the goal was washed out, soulless husks of these characters; then I guess it succeeded.


No, because it wasn't an artistic choice. It was a change made out of obligation to keep the age rating low.
On the Byleth point specifically, I don't think it's bad that Byleth retains their original art style. If anything, I think the opposite is true, and that all of them should do their best to maintain their original style, since that's always been something Fire Emblem itself has celebrated.

Chrom's model quality notwithstanding (though the quality can be somewhat excused due to the repurposed nature of his addition, and even then it's not as bad as the likes of Young Link and Wolf imo), all of Kozaki's characters match fairly well with how they are in Smash with, imo, the sole exception of Lucina's eyes (something about how they are in Smash has always bothered me). The angular faces match well for Chrom, Robin, Lucina (minus the aforementioned eye issue), and Corrin. Byleth, as mentioned, carries the Kurahana design very well. Ike flows fairly well with Kita Senri's design, though I do wish Radiant Dawn Ike specifically was a bit more vibrant to match how he's usually drawn. Roy...well, Roy is an odd case of being a Smash original design mishmash.

But if anything, I'd say the issue isn't with Byleth, but with Marth (and also Lyn and Tiki, the latter for the same reason as Lucina). It might be a grandfathered problem of not being associated with a specific artist, but at this point Daisuke Izuka has become the de facto Marth Artist, so I'd be fully in support of Marth getting a visual overhaul to match the Izuka design.

And this holds true for me of any future Fire Emblem additions that may or may not happen. Alm or Celica? Base them on Hidari's art. Alfonse or Veronica? Kozaki's. Alear? Mika Pikazo's. Lyn or Hector? Wada Sachiko's designs. Making Fire Emblem itself match a cohesive style is, in my eyes, missing the point, because there's never been one.
 
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