Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Sid-cada]

1) To stop infinites, limit the materials.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by "wall infinite". By that, I mean the ability to perform a theoretically infinitely long combo because of a wall preventing the opponent from escaping.

2) He can’t just build walls, just like in MC, you have to have a block to place more, you cannot just put blocks in the sky without a pre-built structure first. Steve can’t just build a wall to defend himself, it takes a bit of time, and you can only go two blocks high without jumping, making the wall a non-issue if you actively go after Steve as you can literally just jump over the wall he’d be able to build without making himself open

So you're saying the main reason he would be chosen would have to be nerfed to the point it would barely be used. Like I said in my prior post, it's a competitive nightmare to balance, which seems to be a bigger focus on in this game. If the walls take too long to build, then almost everyone will reach him before he can get anything going. Too much health, and we can end up with a keep away game that can last for ages. Too little health, and it almost doesn't seem to be worth much making it.

3) Not every character has to be competitively viable. We have characters like Pichu for a reason, sometimes it’s just fun to have a unique character even if they’re trash tier. Steve would be a good character to use when in 4 player matches as distractions give him time to build and make the perfect armor, making him a more fun party character.

Actually, if they're not careful we can end up with an Bayonneta/Meta Knight situation. And even if it's fun for the player, do you think other players will have fun? Ask any player who was chain grabbed by the Ice Climbers or Dedede, and they can tell you that sometimes a character can be unfair to the point of frustration.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Captain Shades Please edit the picture in your message to remove the "f" word.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Time for me weigh in on Steve. Oh yay...

To be fair, I love Minecraft, I think it’s a wonderful game with lots to enjoy. I’ve never been opposed to content from the game in Ultimate. I have been opposed to playable representation, and the whole I don’t think he’s an icon isn’t even the main part of that.

Unless Minecraft got some huge presence in the ballot that nobody ever picked up upon (poll wise and support wise on social media at the time), he represents the same design philosophy of Smash 4. The relevance and advertising argument taken to an extreme. Minecraft has a huge player base and is a current influential title, let’s appeal to that fan base with a character. A character would invite all of those people in and generate positive buzz for the game.

That’s all sensible, and correct. Steve’s inclusion would get a ton of headlines indeed. The game might even indeed appeal to more people because of a Minecraft character. There’s only positives in that light, and unfortunately I’m afraid that’s how he might have been seen to Nintendo.

The issue, for me, comes in the fact that Smash 4 was so advertising based, and Smash Ultimate has done a great job of fulfilling fan expectations and requests. The game feels for the fans of the series more than ever. Ultimate is the answer to people who might have been disappointed with Smash 4 it seems. Namely, in satisfying larger fan requests by making them additions to the roster. The ever popular Minecraft character would break that illusion for myself, and many of us here.

And I get it, we’re the hardcore fans who are likely already sold on the game. Reason dictates we don’t matter at that point once we’ve chosen to invest. Despite this line of thinking, we’re also the people who will respond the most positively with the good will of answering our requests and desires. I mean look at King K Rool and the thank you letter. We’re loyal fans who have stuck by Smash for years and helped make the newcomers arguably into major events with our speculation. The hype of a Smash newcomer is pretty much greater than that of any fighting game I can think of, and I think we’re pretty responsible for that as a community. Seeing Sakurai give back even more to us as his (likely) sendoff and making the “Ultimate” game for fans would endear him even further to so many of us and generate such a positive reaction all around.

As opposed to the salt of say, Steve being chosen. We tend to be unfortunately loud when things don’t go our way, and yeah, we can be more than a little entitled. Especially when sakurai has already given us so much over the years and already with Ultimate. I just think Ultimate seems like a vision, and I think Steve as an inclusion muddies that up a little.

If somehow he did get a ton of votes, I’ll begrudgingly accept him more so due to my own principles of satisfying fan requests (Though again, I seriously doubt this is the case). And having him before Banjo will never not feel wrong.

Plus, I just think it’s too early to throw Minecraft in. It has a legacy already, and has had phenomenal staying power as a constantly updated game, but I’d also like to see that legacy develop more before we consider a playable character. Even more so because Steve himself would be our most hollow third party character yet as not everyone actually knows he has a name and he’s just the generic default skin of a playable character. He’s not what you call an actual character with any personality. Recognizable, sure. A character is a stretch to be honest, and I prefer my third parties with a little more of their own. I’ll take the stage and maybe a creeper assist if I have to have Minecraft representation in the game though...

Sorry for the rambled mess of a post, I’m not on as much sleep as I should be haha.

 

[Captain Shades]

Mind if I comment EricTheGamerman

I completely agree that Wii U was an advertisement fest, that’s actually part of the reason for why I prefer Brawl over it. Though I don’t actually hate any of the characters introduced, it was a good list just lacking the proper balance of old and new. I know I got angry about how Smash fans treat the characters, but that’s because they blame the character and hate on them for the problems with Wii U than the characters themselves, Corrin is a fun character and deserved a spot even with the varying reception of Fates, but the character was badly timed. I want to bring this up as I agree with you EricTheGamerman , but I still think you are missing some things.

I saw that you’re basing the game on the ballot, which I think is wrong. The ballot did show popularity of some characters but it came with a host of problems, such as companies getting involved and sending their fans to submit votes for random 3rd parties, leaks that made previously unpopular characters the talk of the town, the ‘meme’ characters, and many other things that took place to the ballot unreliable. The ballot was also said to be for Smash 4, so many other popular picks got killed as they were assists, bosses, or part of Final Smashes. The ballot, to me at least, seemed like it was a mess with some pretty clear winners like K Rool, but many were very spur of the moment picks, like Shovel Knight who literally just came out and had no clear indicator of future popularity.

Now I think Sakurai is actually playing Ultimate very smart. He’s using the ballot, but way less than people say he is. I think K Rool was the only real ballot pick, maybe Inklings though I would have expected them anyway. The main thing Sakurai seems to be doing is looking at the most popular characters going into the two previous Smash titles, for instance, Simon Belmont was said to be a huge request in the Brawl days as people wanted him as the Konami rep over Snake. Ridley was the all time Smash pick, as I don’t think there’s ever been a time where he wasn’t a popular choice besides the ballot where he was only overlooked due to being a boss already. Dark Samus was always brought up as a potential Metroid villain due to Ridley being too big, so she got her history before the ballot. Chrom was picked because people were bummed that Robin was chosen over him pre-Wii U. Finally Isabelle wasn’t even a Smash pick, she was just popular in her own community, so it made sense to add her as Animal Crossing is a big franchise and Isabelle is essentially the face of it because of how popular she was in New Leaf. Also returning characters have been popular since Brawl with people requesting for the return of the Melee veterans, and Smash 4 getting some hate for not having Snake and Wolf specifically.

Okay, so my point. Minecraft was actually pretty talked about going into Wii U, I mean how could it not be it was at its peak during the Smash 4 waiting days. The time span going into the lead up of Wii U was that MC released completely in 2011, got super popular in 2012 (release of the Wii U), stayed just as popular for two extra years going into Smash Wii U, until it got bought by Microsoft in 2014. Throughout that time Nintendo’s social media platform was bombarded by Minecraft requests, whether it was for Smash or the game itself, the platform dedicated to Nintendo users was a breeding ground for Minecraft popularity.


Now going into the ballot one thing became clear, Indies are wanted! Shantae, Shovel Knight, and others were all picks from top of the ballot, and Shovel Knight was one that was talked about quite a bit. Indies were one of the main components that made up a lot of the ballot. Now what does this have to do with Minecraft, well a lot actually.

Minecraft was the biggest indie around at that time, and was the most stable and consistent in terms of popularity. Minecraft already had 4 years going into the ballot to prove it would still be popular as the game was and has yet to be taken down. The game was a juggernaut, so of course it’d beat Shantae which was honestly a franchise that I’m pretty sure most of us hadn’t heard of prior to the ballot, and it proved it’d stay popular unlike Shovel Knight which was at most a year old and could have easily died out by the end of the ballot. Also taking in the fact that Nintendo’s own run and monitored site was filled with MC content, would it really be a stretch for Sakurai to see Minecraft as a popular pick amongst Nintendo fans and the best indie pick? Especially since he enjoys the title, and it seems that his cohort Miyamoto (who got Pac-Man in Smash) also likes the title, feeling jealous that he and Nintendo didn’t create it.



Seeing as how Sakurai seems to be looking at multiple eras of Smash popularity instead of just the ballot, then I think Minecraft has a good shot. It was a lot more popular than people give it credit for, and I think that’s due to the ‘cringe’ culture that has been tacked onto it by the internet, making MC seem like a joke, rather than a major player.


As for the history part, dude it’s been around for almost 10 years at this point, being open for early access in 2009. The popularity hasn’t died down to a significant degree in that time and the game has made so much history.

1) It has become the 4th to 2nd best selling game of all time depending on sources, only being beaten by Mario it seems, along with Wii Sports but that’s a pack in game so many see that as cheating.

2) The game was the first to bring in a major collaboration between Nintendo and the Microsoft XBOX brand as it introduced cross-play, so friends wouldn’t be locked behind systems.

3) The game has worked in collaboration with sites like Code.org to help teach programming. The game has also been used in schools for the purposes of teaching STEM.

4) The United Nations collaborated with Minecraft on a project to build simulations of urban slums for the purposes of improving them using the tools Minecraft provides.

Honestly MC deserves representation at this point, the game doesn’t seem to be going anywhere and has actually made many historical feats for gaming. It may be new, but the history and consistent popularity show that Minecraft isn’t just some fad, but is a legend at this point.

 

[StormC]

I think the issue with Steve is he would appeal to Minecraft fans and basically few others. There are a lot of characters in the roster that generated buzz even outside of their fandoms, but how many people would be interested and excited about Steve besides diehard Minecraft fans?

I had never played Simon Belmont’s games at the time but I loved his trailer. The trailer did its job, selling me on a product I was unfamiliar with. I don’t fathom a way for me to be sold on Steve.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I'm gonna copy what I posted in the smash discussion thread:

"I think a point to make is that, if they do go through with Steve:

As a company, they try to market to the largest crowd possible, not just the hardcore gamers / Smash community. Minecraft Steve would boost their chances in succeeding, as Minecraft can be marketed to nearly everyone. If kids see Minecraft in Smash, they may want to buy a Steve amiibo with the game and play as him all day and use him to beat up the villains (well, hopefully they and their parents could hear about the amiibo stuff).

Of course, any Minecraft content in general would do exactly that...well, as long as it get's a stage at the least. Though, if a Creeper assist trophy is shown off, I'm not sure how the kids would react to that alone...they just might want to see a lot more Minecraft stuff, though. Marketing may end up not succeeding if there isn't decent Minecraft content, unless the kids love Smash regardless."

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Mind if I comment EricTheGamerman

I completely agree that Wii U was an advertisement fest, that’s actually part of the reason for why I prefer Brawl over it. Though I don’t actually hate any of the characters introduced, it was a good list just lacking the proper balance of old and new. I know I got angry about how Smash fans treat the characters, but that’s because they blame the character and hate on them for the problems with Wii U than the characters themselves, Corrin is a fun character and deserved a spot even with the varying reception of Fates, but the character was badly timed. I want to bring this up as I agree with you EricTheGamerman , but I still think you are missing some things.

I saw that you’re basing the game on the ballot, which I think is wrong. The ballot did show popularity of some characters but it came with a host of problems, such as companies getting involved and sending their fans to submit votes for random 3rd parties, leaks that made previously unpopular characters the talk of the town, the ‘meme’ characters, and many other things that took place to the ballot unreliable. The ballot was also said to be for Smash 4, so many other popular picks got killed as they were assists, bosses, or part of Final Smashes. The ballot, to me at least, seemed like it was a mess with some pretty clear winners like K Rool, but many were very spur of the moment picks, like Shovel Knight who literally just came out and had no clear indicator of future popularity.

Now I think Sakurai is actually playing Ultimate very smart. He’s using the ballot, but way less than people say he is. I think K Rool was the only real ballot pick, maybe Inklings though I would have expected them anyway. The main thing Sakurai seems to be doing is looking at the most popular characters going into the two previous Smash titles, for instance, Simon Belmont was said to be a huge request in the Brawl days as people wanted him as the Konami rep over Snake. Ridley was the all time Smash pick, as I don’t think there’s ever been a time where he wasn’t a popular choice besides the ballot where he was only overlooked due to being a boss already. Dark Samus was always brought up as a potential Metroid villain due to Ridley being too big, so she got her history before the ballot. Chrom was picked because people were bummed that Robin was chosen over him pre-Wii U. Finally Isabelle wasn’t even a Smash pick, she was just popular in her own community, so it made sense to add her as Animal Crossing is a big franchise and Isabelle is essentially the face of it because of how popular she was in New Leaf. Also returning characters have been popular since Brawl with people requesting for the return of the Melee veterans, and Smash 4 getting some hate for not having Snake and Wolf specifically.

Okay, so my point. Minecraft was actually pretty talked about going into Wii U, I mean how could it not be it was at its peak during the Smash 4 waiting days. The time span going into the lead up of Wii U was that MC released completely in 2011, got super popular in 2012 (release of the Wii U), stayed just as popular for two extra years going into Smash Wii U, until it got bought by Microsoft in 2014. Throughout that time Nintendo’s social media platform was bombarded by Minecraft requests, whether it was for Smash or the game itself, the platform dedicated to Nintendo users was a breeding ground for Minecraft popularity.
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Now going into the ballot one thing became clear, Indies are wanted! Shantae, Shovel Knight, and others were all picks from top of the ballot, and Shovel Knight was one that was talked about quite a bit. Indies were one of the main components that made up a lot of the ballot. Now what does this have to do with Minecraft, well a lot actually.

Minecraft was the biggest indie around at that time, and was the most stable and consistent in terms of popularity. Minecraft already had 4 years going into the ballot to prove it would still be popular as the game was and has yet to be taken down. The game was a juggernaut, so of course it’d beat Shantae which was honestly a franchise that I’m pretty sure most of us hadn’t heard of prior to the ballot, and it proved it’d stay popular unlike Shovel Knight which was at most a year old and could have easily died out by the end of the ballot. Also taking in the fact that Nintendo’s own run and monitored site was filled with MC content, would it really be a stretch for Sakurai to see Minecraft as a popular pick amongst Nintendo fans and the best indie pick? Especially since he enjoys the title, and it seems that his cohort Miyamoto (who got Pac-Man in Smash) also likes the title, feeling jealous that he and Nintendo didn’t create it.



Seeing as how Sakurai seems to be looking at multiple eras of Smash popularity instead of just the ballot, then I think Minecraft has a good shot. It was a lot more popular than people give it credit for, and I think that’s due to the ‘cringe’ culture that has been tacked onto it by the internet, making MC seem like a joke, rather than a major player.


As for the history part, dude it’s been around for almost 10 years at this point, being open for early access in 2009. The popularity hasn’t died down to a significant degree in that time and the game has made so much history.

1) It has become the 4th to 2nd best selling game of all time depending on sources, only being beaten by Mario it seems, along with Wii Sports but that’s a pack in game so many see that as cheating.

2) The game was the first to bring in a major collaboration between Nintendo and the Microsoft XBOX brand as it introduced cross-play, so friends wouldn’t be locked behind systems.

3) The game has worked in collaboration with sites like Code.org to help teach programming. The game has also been used in schools for the purposes of teaching STEM.

4) The United Nations collaborated with Minecraft on a project to build simulations of urban slums for the purposes of improving them using the tools Minecraft provides.

Honestly MC deserves representation at this point, the game doesn’t seem to be going anywhere and has actually made many historical feats for gaming. It may be new, but the history and consistent popularity show that Minecraft isn’t just some fad, but is a legend at this point.

I still don’t see how the legacy of Minecraft at this point, which is still in its infancy, related to Smash other than, its on a Nintendo platform. And if there is one thing I hate more than everything else it’s the constant bombardment of every third party showing up on Nintendo or Switch now meaning those characters need to be considered. I’m still mostly reluctant to let many third parties in, and Minecraft just suggests a shift in that thinking too, so I’d rather not explore those options to be completely honest.

Minecraft came to Nintendo consoles last, as it wasn’t given a priority on those consoles. With Nintendo, Minecraft only has a three year history (Hell, that’s only true in December of this year release wise for the Wii U). One can argue that was in part due to Notch. Fine. That still doesn’t make the history of Minecraft with Switch any more important.

And the connections with Microsoft that Minecraft supposedly creates aren’t nearly as important as people think. I think it’s extremely clear that despite owning Mojang, Microsoft allows Mojang to sort of just be their own third party branch. That’s how we have Minecraft on Nintendo platforms, and on Sony consoles with constant updates. They were under no obligation to continue updating the PS4 version once they purchased Mojang, and you can’t tell me that Xbox-Sony have any real good will and that Minecraft is a sign of that. Sure it’s not getting the Better Together update and Nintendo is, but that’s more representative of Sony being a pain about cross play. Microsoft and Nintendo are just picking up a good PR situation that requires no actual effort or investment on their part. This update is clearly just the future of Minecraft more than anything else, and just has little to do with Nintendo other than them giving the ok to allow cross play as they have for now several games. And the only unique thing that Nintendo has is a texture pack for Mario, which is pretty standard stuff for Minecraft.

That’s all to say, Minecraft doesn’t have any big connection to Nintendo. It’s just on the system and in a better spot than Minecraft in say PS4 overall (Which has everything to do with Sony). The game may have been requested on Miiverse and such, but that’s basically any reasonable game on Nintendo systems because third party support is lacking. It was also one of the few third party games that even had a CHANCE of coming late into the Wii U era given the third party debacle with that system. So it makes sense we’d see more support. Nowadays we’d see GTA V or Diablo 3 prior to announcement, or Overwatch as popular. Nintendo fans and owners of the console are always requesting popular games to make it over to their preferred console of choice.

There’s just very little indicating Minecraft was a popular pick with regards to Smash after that consideration. I mean some as you posted that, but I’ve never seen much to that end and haven’t been able to find any movement of the sort that would support that idea either. On a ballot where you had other indie characters like Shovel Knight and Shantae, and a far more important character to Nintendo from Microsoft like Banjo Kazooie, all of which have shown up multiple times in the various polls we’ve seen, Minecraft suddenly has no place. Why actively piss off all of those fan bases at once by just deciding to go with the “indie rep” (at this point he isn’t one though, attribute that to success, sure, but he now has the backing of Microsoft). That’s a choice that can be made, but not in very good confidence I imagine.

The ballot isn’t infalliable and I didn’t mean to suggest it was, or that picks could only come from it. Simon and Ridley are bigger examples of characters who didn’t poll well. I’m all for fan inclusions from all eras of fan speculation and support. The ballot itself had some crazy suggestions we know to be fact like Shrek for the memes. That’s not to say you couldn’t just sort those out and look at who did well without some sort of company rallying call or belonging to meme culture, and then use some of those additional picks. We were never promised ballot picks to be fair, but the choices we’ve seen so far all reflect overall popular requests except Isabelle who belongs to the breakout star of Nintendo category since the past game launches.

Overall I’m not trying to argue Minecraft doesn’t have a popular developing legacy. It certainly has that. What it doesn’t have as much is any real connection to Nintendo that runs very deep. And I think that should be important to the third party franchises in Smash with playable characters. I’m generally much more harsh in how I perceive third party characters cause I still don’t treat Smash as the celebration of video games, because it isn’t and is still heavily rooted in Nintendo.

If we’re going off all that, Tetris is the biggest game of all time, has a long defined legacy and a huge connection to Nintendo via the Gameboy. There should be Tetris representation before Minecraft representation, but we don’t have that either. And I’d say that’s in large part to people not being vocal about it in Smash, as I’ve seen Minecraft not exactly be a vocal part of Smash. I bring that comparison to further show that the popularity of Minecraft doesn’t necessarily mean all that much for Smash. And Minecraft is still in the middle of developing a legacy (as is Shovel Knight since you brought him up). I just don’t think Nintendo/Minecraft have enough of a connection to be included as playable in Smash. I’ll probablh be wrong I admit, but that won’t change my mind of Steve’s inclusion.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Y'know, when it comes to third parties, Sakurai just says that appearing on a Nintendo platform is a "common courtesy," but he doesn't specify that it's required. He mentions "game history," but I'm pretty sure Minecraft made its mark.

Since Minecraft is on Nintendo systems, and has been around for a while now...

As for the Ballot, didn't it have around 1.8 million votes? Most fan-polls can't compare, not even that 2015 fan-poll data page that some people cite for evidence.

 

[StormC]

Y'know, when it comes to third parties, Sakurai just says that appearing on a Nintendo platform is a "common courtesy," but he doesn't specify that it's required. He mentions "game history," but I'm pretty sure Minecraft made its mark.

Since Minecraft is on Nintendo systems, and has been around for a while now...

As for the Ballot, didn't it have around 1.8 million votes? Most fan-polls can't compare, not even that 2015 fan-poll data page that some people cite for evidence.

I’d bet at least half of those votes were double votes, considering how many people voted over and over. 1.8 million isn’t actually that big, considering that Smash 3DS sold roughly 8 million.

The inclusion of K. Rool should at least lead credence to the idea that fan polls were not totally off base.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I’d bet at least half of those votes were double votes, considering how many people voted over and over. 1.8 million isn’t actually that big, considering that Smash 3DS sold roughly 8 million.

The inclusion of K. Rool should at least lead credence to the idea that fan polls were not totally off base.

Fair point; it's also possible Sakurai looks to other places for popularity as well. Dark Samus was "highly requested," but she doesn't seem to be on any fan-poll data.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Fair point; it's also possible Sakurai looks to other places for popularity as well. Dark Samus was "highly requested," but she doesn't seem to be on any fan-poll data.

I’d say realizable Echo fighters didn’t have to rank highly to get attention from Sakurai. They don’t rank highly on the polls but they don’t need to seeing as they’re not unique characters. Certain characters just can fit into the Echo category he developed. Again, I’m not saying the ballot is infalliable and the only basis, but I would expect Echo fighters all around get a different situation.

Also, I wish people would stop pointing out that the ballot polls we have are incomplete. That’s obvious, but that large of an information collection is only possible for Nintendo. Polls are the best way of collecting general data for a larger population that you can’t directly get a lot of data for. They may not show everything correctly, and the rankings are undoubtedly different in reality, but what they are good at is identifying general trends. Some are still possible to miss and response bias will always be an issue, but in the absence of other data, polls are your best metric for determining information. And there’s been more polls and fan polls after the fact, and we see that generally trends hold across the board with certain characters getting surges at certain times. If a character doesn’t touch the polls at all, it’s completely fair in this context to say that there isn’t a reason to believe that they’re a popular fan pick. Burden of proof falls to one making claims, and people make claims like the polls don’t represent everyone and that can make the case for x and y character’s popularity. The first part is just obviously true and the second is a baseless claim.

I’m not attacking you directly on the polls thing, that’s just an argument that gets tossed out way too often. Without the polls you have literally nothing to work with. And I’d wager that those who voted in the ballot were often the more hardcore fans (seriously at least, meme picks get excluded from polls and the game altogether). Yes it’s possible that just a ton of people voted multiple times for certain characters, and that the polls didn’t catch them all. But supposed popular picks would surely turn up somewhere right? And I’m not sure multiple votes from one person would have been all that well tracked either.

 

[Captain Shades]

EricTheGamerman , I don’t think being on a Nintendo system really makes anyone more or less realizable, nor does having a history with Nintendo. I think 3rd parties are a way to show the bigger landscape of gaming as a whole, the characters are important to gaming not Nintendo. If characters were chosen solely for their history with Nintendo, then Cloud, Snake, Pac-Man, and Bayonetta probably won’t have become characters as Cloud hadn’t appeared on a Nintendo console outside of spin-offs, Snake has always been more associated with PlayStation just like Cloud, Bayonetta gets one game as a Nintendo exclusive and a year later she’s in Smash, and Pac-Man is well known because of the arcade classic, not any Nintendo titles. You could even add Sonic as he was a competitor and his newest big game at the time of Brawl was an XBOX exclusive, Sonic really didn’t provide much to Nintendo. Even some of the more Nintendo associated 3rd parties left them after the PlayStation became a thing, Richter is known as a PlayStation character as Castlevania went to that system, Mega Man went more towards PlayStation in later years for console releases, and Street Fighter has been on and off Nintendo hardware for decades now as the last entry V wasn’t on Nintendo systems.

I see your point though, if you want Smash to be a Nintendo party, then it makes sense that you’re reluctant to let many join, but for me I see Smash as a gaming history title. It gives you the best or best it can of each genre in gaming, bringing the various big gaming icons together for one big party. We have multiple eras and genres clashing and I like Smash for that reason. The 3rd parties shouldn’t be relegated to Nintendo history, it would just create a weaker list of icons overall as Nintendo doesn’t have the best history with 3rd parties outside the NES.

Using that, then for me I would want these to be our 3rd parties with one in the base, and the rest as DLC

Steve - Biggest Indie success story, basically crafted the modern world builder type games of today yet hasn’t been overtaken by them as they can’t perfect what MC did, the game has basically becoming the face of this decade and is really the only modern (2010 - ) gaming rep worthy of Smash that Isn’t from Nintendo or Sony, in all honesty. Most of the big games of the decade haven’t stuck around with FNAF being the biggest example, but Minecraft has, the only game that I can see lasting past the decade may actually be Fortnite as it is the face of a relatively new genre with the Battle Royal genre and has become as big as Minecraft, something FNAF and Undertale couldn’t do.

Doom Slayer - It’s Doom, the OG First person shooter with tons of violence. The game left a huge legacy and Bethesda seems to be honoring it well with the sort-of reboot it has gotten making it one of the most loved FPS titles. Even colorful Arlo couldn’t spill nothing but joy with the title.

Banjo & Kazooie - N64 history, along with the fact that Collect-O-Thons were their thing. If they could be thanked for one thing it would be that sub-genre of 3D platformer. They are historical, similar to Pac-Man or Sonic, where they represent an era of gaming.

Master Chief- It’s Master Chief, I know him, you know him, we all know the impact Halo had on FPS titles. Fans literally created their own online servers for this game, so I think it’s fair to say Master Chief and Doom Slayer would be the best representation of FPS shooters.

Rayman - Really my most controversial pick in terms of video game history, though if you include the Rabbids then it makes more sense. I think Rayman is a good representative of platformers in the modern era. He’s one of like two characters, the other being Donkey Kong, to actually evolve the 2D platform genre past the NES in recent times. He also had highly acclaimed 3D platformers and we cannot leave out the impact of the first and second Rabbids titles which he was the main star of, and how every Wii party game seemed to look up to them

Chell - Probably the most out there, but on a forum page, people were asked to name the most recognizable characters in gaming after 2000, and Chell was talked about quite a bunch. Her, Master Chief and Steve have gone down as the 2000s and beyond gaming icons, and why wouldn’t they be, both being from extremely influential games that took a pretty niche genre and took a completely new spin on it. Portal is the most well known puzzle title with an actual character, and has a sense of humor unlike many others. While Portal being represented in Smash seems low, I do feel there is a good chance for it to happen, especially since Portal has recently been thrown into the hands of multiple companies with crossovers in Rocket League, Bridge Constructor, and the biggest being her and Sonic’s roles as the video game mascots in LEGO Dimensions. Plus Gabben apparently liked the Wii U so..., maybe there’s potential for a Valve and Nintendo collaboration, maybe.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

EricTheGamerman , I don’t think being on a Nintendo system really makes anyone more or less realizable, nor does having a history with Nintendo. I think 3rd parties are a way to show the bigger landscape of gaming as a whole, the characters are important to gaming not Nintendo. If characters were chosen solely for their history with Nintendo, then Cloud, Snake, Pac-Man, and Bayonetta probably won’t have become characters as Cloud hadn’t appeared on a Nintendo console outside of spin-offs, Snake has always been more associated with PlayStation just like Cloud, Bayonetta gets one game as a Nintendo exclusive and a year later she’s in Smash, and Pac-Man is well known because of the arcade classic, not any Nintendo titles. You could even add Sonic as he was a competitor and his newest big game at the time of Brawl was an XBOX exclusive, Sonic really didn’t provide much to Nintendo. Even some of the more Nintendo associated 3rd parties left them after the PlayStation became a thing, Richter is known as a PlayStation character as Castlevania went to that system, Mega Man went more towards PlayStation in later years for console releases, and Street Fighter has been on and off Nintendo hardware for decades now as the last entry V wasn’t on Nintendo systems.

I see your point though, if you want Smash to be a Nintendo party, then it makes sense that you’re reluctant to let many join, but for me I see Smash as a gaming history title. It gives you the best or best it can of each genre in gaming, bringing the various big gaming icons together for one big party. We have multiple eras and genres clashing and I like Smash for that reason. The 3rd parties shouldn’t be relegated to Nintendo history, it would just create a weaker list of icons overall as Nintendo doesn’t have the best history with 3rd parties outside the NES.

Using that, then for me I would want these to be our 3rd parties with one in the base, and the rest as DLC

Steve - Biggest Indie success story, basically crafted the modern world builder type games of today yet hasn’t been overtaken by them as they can’t perfect what MC did, the game has basically becoming the face of this decade and is really the only modern (2010 - ) gaming rep worthy of Smash that Isn’t from Nintendo or Sony, in all honesty. Most of the big games of the decade haven’t stuck around with FNAF being the biggest example, but Minecraft has, the only game that I can see lasting past the decade may actually be Fortnite as it is the face of a relatively new genre with the Battle Royal genre and has become as big as Minecraft, something FNAF and Undertale couldn’t do.

Doom Slayer - It’s Doom, the OG First person shooter with tons of violence. The game left a huge legacy and Bethesda seems to be honoring it well with the sort-of reboot it has gotten making it one of the most loved FPS titles. Even colorful Arlo couldn’t spill nothing but joy with the title.

Banjo & Kazooie - N64 history, along with the fact that Collect-O-Thons were their thing. If they could be thanked for one thing it would be that sub-genre of 3D platformer. They are historical, similar to Pac-Man or Sonic, where they represent an era of gaming.

Master Chief- It’s Master Chief, I know him, you know him, we all know the impact Halo had on FPS titles. Fans literally created their own online servers for this game, so I think it’s fair to say Master Chief and Doom Slayer would be the best representation of FPS shooters.

Rayman - Really my most controversial pick in terms of video game history, though if you include the Rabbids then it makes more sense. I think Rayman is a good representative of platformers in the modern era. He’s one of like two characters, the other being Donkey Kong, to actually evolve the 2D platform genre past the NES in recent times. He also had highly acclaimed 3D platformers and we cannot leave out the impact of the first and second Rabbids titles which he was the main star of, and how every Wii party game seemed to look up to them

Chell - Probably the most out there, but on a forum page, people were asked to name the most recognizable characters in gaming after 2000, and Chell was talked about quite a bunch. Her, Master Chief and Steve have gone down as the 2000s and beyond gaming icons, and why wouldn’t they be, both being from extremely influential games that took a pretty niche genre and took a completely new spin on it. Portal is the most well known puzzle title with an actual character, and has a sense of humor unlike many others. While Portal being represented in Smash seems low, I do feel there is a good chance for it to happen, especially since Portal has recently been thrown into the hands of multiple companies with crossovers in Rocket League, Bridge Constructor, and the biggest being her and Sonic’s roles as the video game mascots in LEGO Dimensions. Plus Gabben apparently liked the Wii U so..., maybe there’s potential for a Valve and Nintendo collaboration, maybe.

I figured this was where our discussion was headed, and unfortunately that’s a disagreement of opinion on Smash as a whole. I find that idea pretty repulsive and one that sacrifices some of the identity of the series in the process, but that is just me I suppose.

Though, I’ll entirely counter that the current third party characters don’t make sense. Mega Man, Sonic, and Simon Belmont speak for themselves I believe at this point. Richter is just an Echo and he actually appeared first with Dracula X (Well Rondo of Blood on the Turbographx 16 CD, but that was Japanese exclusive) on SNES before his more co-starring role in Symphony. defines Street Fighter, and Street Fighter II defines the SNES extremely well. Bayonetta is basically a first party IP at this point. Bayonetta 2 was funded by Nintendo, and they’re funding Bayonetta 3 as well, both of which exclusive. She barely counts as a third party given that she’s so closely tied to Nintendo at this point, Sega just has to give the rights which is an easy deal with Sonic. So while she doesn’t have a legacy as big at this point, she isn’t entirely just a normal third party (a situation she would share with Geno).

PAC-Man has showed up on every console short of the N64 I believe, and PAC-Man vs was actually just straight up developed by Miyamoto. So that earns him a spot. Cloud is the most tenuous connection, but I think he showcases something very well. He represents Final Fantasy as a whole, and that series undeniably has history with Nintendo and Final Fantasy VI is still considered the pinnacle of JRPGs to some. Cloud is just the most recognizable and requested individual of FF characters, and Sakurai wanted to include specifically something from Final Fantasy.

That brings us to Snake. And yeah, he doesn’t have much. He’s had a couple of games on consoles and the exclusive remake, The Twin Snakes on Gamecube, which was developed by then nintendo contracted exclusive developer at the time, Silicon Knights. But more importantly, he’s the result of Kojima asking Sakurai to put him in, and that’s just friendship superseding other things, so it still doesn’t really apply.

All of that is to say, all these characters have reasons for being in the game now. They are either important characters, or representatives of franchises that have deeper connections with Nintendo. How they stand now means nothing, as third party and Nintendo have only recently begun to warm back up to one another anyway. There’s reason for everyone of them to be here Nintendo connection wise, except maybe Snake and again he has special circumstances.

I just fundamentally don’t see any reason to believe that Smash has turned into a celebration of video games as people want to believe these days. Everything still has a point in the game (playable character wise, and even the non-playable appearances like Rayman trophy, Shovel Knight assist, and Rathalos boss all have strong connections with Nintendo). So far everything we’ve seen has remained rooted in Nintendo related IPs, and Bayonetta aside, they’re all legendary characters/IPs with 20+ years of Nintendo history. That’s not to say newer IPs couldn’t come on board to be fair. But everything we’ve seen shows playable is reserved for a very few third party fighters with connections to Nintendo.

 

[Oniric Spriter]

After these walls of text let me just say that Steve in smash would be a terrible decision, ughh

 

[Captain Shades]

You know what EricTheGamerman , I can respect that.

But I do want to counter, I mentioned many newer IPs, and the problem is how can they make history with Nintendo? Many games that are considered ground breaking today and staples of the industry just couldn’t work on Nintendo hardware, or would be detrimental if they were put on. Think about the last two Nintendo consoles, we got the most under powered systems, and I mean underpowered, of the generation in both eras, not only that but the controllers hurt titles significantly as contraollers like the Game Pad added a significant amount of development time to work around.

For example, take Skyrim. The game was pretty ground breaking when it came out for being a massive open-world title, how would it have functioned on a Wii? I can say the same for Minecraft as even with the blocky graphics, the game takes up a significant amount of data to handle, plus using the Wii remote might be, awkward?

Honestly the only big 3rd parties that have supported Nintendo systems in the past few years and are well known would be Minecraft and the Rabbids, maybe Just Dance. The rest have been indies of very very varying success.

You may think characters like Doom Slayer and such have little history being only on Switch in recent times, but really how could they have had history. Many saw it as impressive that Doom could even be on Switch, as the console didn’t seem like it could handle it, so how would the super inferior Wii U be able to handle Doom, and with a tacked on Game Pad accessory they have to program for to boot.

I think the problem with the history with Nintendo rule is that many can’t join, even if they’re on Switch, for not being on Nintendo’s side when they deliberately made development harder. At one point the Nintendo All-Stars so to speak will run out, I’d even say they’re running thin right now, so what happens next

 

[EricTheGamerman]

You know what EricTheGamerman , I can respect that.

But I do want to counter, I mentioned many newer IPs, and the problem is how can they make history with Nintendo? Many games that are considered ground breaking today and staples of the industry just couldn’t work on Nintendo hardware, or would be detrimental if they were put on. Think about the last two Nintendo consoles, we got the most under powered systems, and I mean underpowered, of the generation in both eras, not only that but the controllers hurt titles significantly as contraollers like the Game Pad added a significant amount of development time to work around.

For example, take Skyrim. The game was pretty ground breaking when it came out for being a massive open-world title, how would it have functioned on a Wii? I can say the same for Minecraft as even with the blocky graphics, the game takes up a significant amount of data to handle, plus using the Wii remote might be, awkward?

Honestly the only big 3rd parties that have supported Nintendo systems in the past few years and are well known would be Minecraft and the Rabbids, maybe Just Dance. The rest have been indies of very very varying success.

You may think characters like Doom Slayer and such have little history being only on Switch in recent times, but really how could they have had history. Many saw it as impressive that Doom could even be on Switch, as the console didn’t seem like it could handle it, so how would the super inferior Wii U be able to handle Doom, and with a tacked on Game Pad accessory they have to program for to boot.

I think the problem with the history with Nintendo rule is that many can’t join, even if they’re on Switch, for not being on Nintendo’s side when they deliberately made development harder. At one point the Nintendo All-Stars so to speak will run out, I’d even say they’re running thin right now, so what happens next

I was afraid I might be venturing too much into sounding like I was completely against newer IPs being in Smash from third parties. That's definitely not my intention, though then that becomes the question of when is the cut-off and what satisfies a good Nintendo connection?

And to be fair, this isn't a good answer with regards to that. There wasn't much of a chance prior to the Switch's current success, which is still limited in certain ways. And you know, I'm actually pretty comfortable saying that if developers didn't support Nintendo til recently they don't have a place in Smash. Some of it was physically impossible with certain games, Nintendo did no favors for developers in the Wii-Wii U generations especially, so I understand while it's disappointing those IPs didn't make it (Until recently in some cases), they just don't fit into the Nintendo narrative. And again, that's what Smash is to me.

I'll also be completely honest. I dislike third party characters that lack character. Any kind of avatar I'm opposed to (Unless it's from Nintendo because I see Smash based in Nintendo). I know people support the Dragonborn and Steve, but to me, a playable character misses the point of those games so completely. The character is just a vehicle to experience the overall worlds. They're stand ins for the player, who you absolutely influence to a tee. And that's great design for those games, but not necessarily good character development. Especially when it becomes a point to make them as devoid of character as possible so as to project on to that character your experience. Stages that represent the worlds of those games, or assist trophies seem more fitting. I even oppose Monster Hunters for the same reason and that's how I prefer third party games with blank slates to get their representation. That's just the way I judge third parties in Smash, and sure Mega Man, Simon Belmont, and PAC-Man lack some character, but they definitely have much more intentionally built lore and character than the stand ins.

Also, I know the well of Nintendo All-Stars will dry up eventually, but I don't think that's necessarily relevant yet, and there are several other series that deserve representation with playable fighters from Nintendo first. There are a lot of classics that should get the opportunity for their own day in the sun I believe. Advance Wars, Golden Sun, Sin and Punishment, Custom Robo (RIP), Rhythm Heaven, and so on, One offs like Lip, Takumaru, and such could always use more attention in detailing Nintendo's history and make for interesting characters. Plus we have legitimate all-stars like Toad and Dixie Kong still missing.

I know third parties are a good way to keep the hype going, and I'm fine with a couple of them. But I don't ever want the focus to be too far removed from first party IPs in Smash. If you're going to go that route, do a more specific cross over like Nintendo vs the World or something, or even do things like Nintendo Vs. Capcom. Smash's identity to me is about Nintendo, and thus the newcomers I generally want need to be heavily Nintendo related.

Sorry for the walls of text y'all. I enjoy the discussions, but I'll try to shorten it more in the future for this thread.

 

[StormC]

I’d rather see secondary characters in existing third parties like Eggman or Zero before we go too esoteric into choices like Doomguy.

 

[Dan]

Had a dream this morning Mach Rider was the next character. I wish you could rewatch your dreams on TV or something.

 

[Captain Shades]

EricTheGamerman

Don’t feel bad about the long walls of text, this is honestly an interesting discussion.

To start off, by Nintendo All-Stars I was referring to the 3rd party type. Many of the characters from 3rd parties that people see as big historical Nintendo specific franchises are dwindling as of now. We already have Pac-Man, Mega Man, Sonic The Hedgehog, Bayonetta, Castlevania, Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, and maybe Metal Gear Solid. Where do you go from there? Assuming we have another 3rd party in the base (Geno excluded) and many more as DLC, who deserves the spots then? Obviously Banjo could be one, but after that what should the 3rd party be, and is anyone historical enough to actually be in Smash? So far we have Shantae but she’s relatively small and really doesn’t leave that much history in the grand scheme of things, Shovel Knight has one game, Rayman is pretty big but really hadn’t gotten much attention as a Nintendo character until 4, Rabbids are a no by the Smash Community, and well what else is there?

While this may be wishful thinking, I think characters like the Doom Slayer may actually fit the Nintendo narrative. I think the same about many of the characters I mentioned, outside of crazy pick Chell. I think we are going into an era where Nintendo may actually have a good support group again, similar to the NES and SNES days. In those days the main support of 3rd parties revolved around Capcom, Namco-Bandai, Square-Enix, and Konami. As time went on though many of them dropped Nintendo because of their weird decisions from using cartridges to small discs to what ever they wanted with the Wii and Wii U. Now with the Switch, some of the old boys have returned with Capcom and Square-Enix, and some have stayed with Namco-Bandai and Sega (who joined during the GameCube days), but we seem to have a new base. Ubisoft has really been a player for Nintendo for years now, but I don’t think anyone can deny the two are on friendly terms as of now. Bethesda is also another company that seems to take interest in Nintendo’s future with the Switch, literally having a side company to help put their massive games on Nintendo’s technically inferior hardware, though it is easy to develop for. Platinum is another major player that already has a character in the form of Bayonetta, but it’s clear that they are like the new Rare in a sense as Nintendo has been the only company to not screw them over, and they haven’t been this involved with a 3rd party since Rare. And finally, while this may be a bold prediction, I truly believe Microsoft may be joining the new Nintendo circle in a similar vein to Sega. Microsoft seems to be slowly fading out their console with how they’ve put all their exclusives on PC, and their more friendly demeanor towards Nintendo seems odd. Something about Microsoft makes it feel as though it’d be unsuprising if they dropped out soon, and if they did, then Nintendo seems like their prime target for support. We have Nintendo’s past in terms of 3rd party, maybe now it’s time to get their future. (Banjo included as Microsoft may join)

Having a 3rd party list like this would be fantastic;

NES Support
Capcom: Mega Man
Namco-Bandai: Pac-Man
Konami: Castlevania

SNES Support
Capcom: Street Fighter
Square-Enix: Final Fantasy

N64 Support
Rare: Banjo-Kazooie

GameCube Support
Konami: Metal Gear Solid
Sega: Sonic The Hedgehog

Wii Support
Ubisoft: Rayman/Rabbids

Wii U Support
Platinum Games: Bayonetta
Mojang: Minecraft

Switch Support
Bethesda: Doom
Microsoft: Halo? (Mascot Pick)

 

[Flyboy]

I just want to swoop in, because third parties were huge for the DS line of systems. I'd amend that list to include Phoenix Wright (Capcom) and YoKai Watch Protag or Jibanyan (Level 5). Professor Layton also possible, depending on how many reps you want in. You can't talk about third parties and Nintendo without those big sellers and system supporters.

Just my take.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I just want to swoop in, because third parties were huge for the DS line of systems. I'd amend that list to include Phoenix Wright (Capcom) and YoKai Watch Protag or Jibanyan (Level 5). Professor Layton also possible, depending on how many reps you want in. You can't talk about third parties and Nintendo without those big sellers and system supporters.

Just my take.

This. I think the way to go with third parties isn’t to start including third parties that are the next best thing just because they’ve run out of iconic picks, but instead include third parties who are basically considered Nintendo characters (like the aforementioned Wright and Layton, Banjo, etc.)

 

[SmashChu]

Real quick on Steve. One thing people don't consider is the licensing. Notice how all of the non-Nintendo content comes from the same few companies: Sega, Capcom, Namco, Konami and Square Enix. All of these companies owned characters who appeared in previous Smash Bros games. Bomberman is Konami. Monster Hunter is Capcom. Even the new guest character is from Castlevania which is owned by Konami. Hindsights 20/20 sure, but its not surprising why they went with Simon when his series has been in decline for years. After Bomberman and Metal Gear, which series would be the next best one from Konami: Castlevania.

The point of the game is "Look, all the characters are back." Licensing is not easy and even Sakurai mentioned it was tough to get all the characters they got. The priority was to get the veterans from their respective company. I don't think Nintendo would license with another company to get a new character when the priority is on the old characters. And as far as success goes, Minecraft is far more popular than Castlevania but what have they gone with? I don't see them licensing with another company to get Steve (or Banjo or Rayman) when they can pull a lot from the companies they already licensed with.

To put more credence to this, the one character not owned by these guys is Shovel Knight. However, Shovel Knight was published by Nintendo in Japan. His inclusion is the same reason we got the Rayman trophies in Smash Wii U (as Nintendo also published that game in Japan). I would put more faith in the Dante rumor than Steve.

 

[Captain Shades]

I just want to swoop in, because third parties were huge for the DS line of systems. I'd amend that list to include Phoenix Wright (Capcom) and YoKai Watch Protag or Jibanyan (Level 5). Professor Layton also possible, depending on how many reps you want in. You can't talk about third parties and Nintendo without those big sellers and system supporters.

Just my take.

I forgot about Level 5, but yes the Layton or the Yokai series would be great for Smash.

I purposefully left out Phoenix and the other big Capcom characters like Jill Valentine (Resident Evil 4 was huge on GameCube, but Jill is pretty much the mascot so I picked her, like Cloud for Final Fantasy) in order to make room for new 3rd party companies, as Capcom already has two characters, and though I’d love to get a 3rd I think a new big company that has made history with Nintendo should come first as why should the already pre-established players have all the fun.



To add onto my point though it’s not like many of the characters I mentioned don’t have history.

Rayman, I’d argue is the most deserving making his 2nd game a priority for Nintendo systems first, the Rabbids were all Nintendo exclusives besides like maybe 1-2, and Legends was going to be a Wii U exclusive. Ubisoft themselves have also published many Nintendo exclusives like Zomie U.

Minecraft is new, but definitely left a mark, selling big time on Nintendo hardware. Plus Minecraft and Bayonetta were like the only big AAA titles to get on Wii U after like 2013. Where everyone pretty much abandoned Nintendo, Minecraft and Bayonetta were there to help the Wii U in its darkest hours. Plus, other than Microsoft’s own consoles, Nintendo seems to be getting top priority with MC on Switch as Java is basically being discontinued from what I heard, or significantly downgraded, and Sony didn’t play ball on cross play so no more updates for them making XBOX, IOS, and Nintendo the top priorities for the Craft.

Doom is also new, even newer than MC, but the fact that Bethesda started a whole new studio to make sure the Switch gets their AAA games using Doom, which is a big win for Nintendo. Just like with the Wii U, it seemed nobody was on board to support the Switch, giving half-baked content, besides Mojang/Microsoft, Ubisoft, and Bethesda. I think that should deserve them some recognition in Nintendo history.

 

[StormC]

Doom is also new, even newer than MC

Doom started in 1993, so...

 

[GoodGrief741]

I forgot about Level 5, but yes the Layton or the Yokai series would be great for Smash.

I purposefully left out Phoenix and the other big Capcom characters like Jill Valentine (Resident Evil 4 was huge on GameCube, but Jill is pretty much the mascot so I picked her, like Cloud for Final Fantasy) in order to make room for new 3rd party companies, as Capcom already has two characters, and though I’d love to get a 3rd I think a new big company that has made history with Nintendo should come first as why should the already pre-established players have all the fun.



To add onto my point though it’s not like many of the characters I mentioned don’t have history.

Rayman, I’d argue is the most deserving making his 2nd game a priority for Nintendo systems first, the Rabbids were all Nintendo exclusives besides like maybe 1-2, and Legends was going to be a Wii U exclusive. Ubisoft themselves have also published many Nintendo exclusives like Zomie U.

Minecraft is new, but definitely left a mark, selling big time on Nintendo hardware. Plus Minecraft and Bayonetta were like the only big AAA titles to get on Wii U after like 2013. Where everyone pretty much abandoned Nintendo, Minecraft and Bayonetta were there to help the Wii U in its darkest hours. Plus, other than Microsoft’s own consoles, Nintendo seems to be getting top priority with MC on Switch as Java is basically being discontinued from what I heard, or significantly downgraded, and Sony didn’t play ball on cross play so no more updates for them making XBOX, IOS, and Nintendo the top priorities for the Craft.

Doom is also new, even newer than MC, but the fact that Bethesda started a whole new studio to make sure the Switch gets their AAA games using Doom, which is a big win for Nintendo. Just like with the Wii U, it seemed nobody was on board to support the Switch, giving half-baked content, besides Mojang/Microsoft, Ubisoft, and Bethesda. I think that should deserve them some recognition in Nintendo history.

I didn’t want to point it out since I didn’t want to come off as patronizing, but you do know that 2016’s Doom is, like, the fifth Doom, right?

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

So like it seems there are about 7-8 more newcomers coming soon and of course more echos.. However it could even be more than that if you consider that there will be a few hidden in which was intended to happen in Smash 4 but then we got that final leak that showed everybody.

 

[StormC]

So like it seems there are about 7-8 more newcomers coming soon and of course more echos.. However it could even be more than that if you consider that there will be a few hidden in which was intended to happen in Smash 4 but then we got that final leak that showed everybody.

Sakurai said in the August Direct all fighters will be revealed before release.

Also that character count from the blog can include echoes so it’s not 7-8 unique fighters left.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

Sakurai said in the August Direct all fighters will be revealed before release.

Also that character count from the blog can include echoes so it’s not 7-8 unique fighters left.

Maybe hes bluffing, ever think of that?

 

[StormC]

Maybe hes bluffing, ever think of that?

No.

 

[AquaSol]

Wow, never realized how divisive Steve is as a newcomer. There are plenty of games represented in Smash whose names are more recognized than their characters. Animal Crossing is well known, but Villager didn't even have a name until SSB4 (he still kind of doesn't when you think about it). Wii Fit and Wii Fit Trainer is another example. Donkey Kong is an iconic video game, but how many people from the general audience recognize Donkey Kong from appearance? The video games Super Mario and Pokemon are iconic, but how many people know Rosalina or Greninja? The gaming/Nintendo community certainty does, but perhaps not the general audience outside. It's the same thing with Steve and Minecraft, and I don't understand why it gets so much hate. I think a lot of it stems from the fact that he and Banjo are from the same company.

 

[StormC]

Wow, never realized how divisive Steve is as a newcomer. There are plenty of games represented in Smash whose names are more recognized than their characters. Animal Crossing is well known, but Villager didn't even have a name until SSB4 (he still kind of doesn't when you think about it). Wii Fit and Wii Fit Trainer is another example. Donkey Kong is an iconic video game, but how many people from the general audience recognize Donkey Kong from appearance? The video games Super Mario and Pokemon are iconic, but how many people know Rosalina or Greninja? The gaming/Nintendo community certainty does, but perhaps not the general audience outside. It's the same thing with Steve and Minecraft, and I don't understand why it gets so much hate. I think a lot of it stems from the fact that he and Banjo are from the same company.

And all of those are Nintendo characters. People would rather not just have any old third party in the game just because they made lots of money.

Otherwise where's our Call Of Duty rep?

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

Tbh Im not really counting how many, Im guessing based off accurate calculations to which characters are in who have yet to be seen.

Characters I think.. No, I am pretty confident will be all in are Medusa, Isaac, Incineroar, Geno, Mona, Rhythm Heaven character ( most likely Ringside Reporter ) and i am so looking forward to Medusa's phenomenal homecoming, it will be just too sweet!

Oh and then there are a few echos left too, Ken, Shadow, Dixie, Hilda and Dry Bowser.

Medusa could be a echo too if not a og fighter, but I know she is in for sure

Oh and it seems that Minecraft guy might be in.

 

[Flyboy]

Side note: Ringside Reporter is my ideal Rhythm Heaven rep. I'd love her and the wrestler as a unit that references the whole series. That'd be so much fun and their Smash 4 trophy was so clean and cute.

I forgot about Level 5, but yes the Layton or the Yokai series would be great for Smash.

I purposefully left out Phoenix and the other big Capcom characters like Jill Valentine (Resident Evil 4 was huge on GameCube, but Jill is pretty much the mascot so I picked her, like Cloud for Final Fantasy) in order to make room for new 3rd party companies, as Capcom already has two characters, and though I’d love to get a 3rd I think a new big company that has made history with Nintendo should come first as why should the already pre-established players have all the fun.

I can respect that. Personal bias wants Phoenix in as the DS third-party rep, but Resident Evil 4 was a MAJOR get for the GameCube at the time. I feel like either-or can work and it just comes down to what you want to see in terms of genres and protagonists. I guess I just see Phoenix as inexorably tied to Nintendo just like, say, Layton or Neku Sakuraba. Also, I'm a DS nerd and the DS is woefully underrepresented in Smash outside of, like, Lucario.

I actually really like considering newer properties and companies when it comes to inclusion. I was one of the people who was SUPER happy about Bayonetta because she represented a company sticking by Nintendo when they helped them get their game out. Same with MonolithSoft and Shulk. Bayo 2 was such a big get for Nintendo and the big N took the risk with her and her series and it became one of the Wii U's must-own titles.

So yeah! I do agree that companies who helped Nintendo or stuck by them in some big way should get recognition whether via stages, assist trophies, or fighters. It just depends on what the best form of rep is. Solid stuff.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

When is the next character going to be shown anyway? We are kind of due for one

 

[StormC]

When is the next character going to be shown anyway? We are kind of due for one

We got one literally ten days ago, so I wouldn't expect anything until next month at the earliest.

 

[SmashChu]

Wow, never realized how divisive Steve is as a newcomer. There are plenty of games represented in Smash whose names are more recognized than their characters. Animal Crossing is well known, but Villager didn't even have a name until SSB4 (he still kind of doesn't when you think about it). Wii Fit and Wii Fit Trainer is another example. Donkey Kong is an iconic video game, but how many people from the general audience recognize Donkey Kong from appearance? The video games Super Mario and Pokemon are iconic, but how many people know Rosalina or Greninja? The gaming/Nintendo community certainty does, but perhaps not the general audience outside. It's the same thing with Steve and Minecraft, and I don't understand why it gets so much hate. I think a lot of it stems from the fact that he and Banjo are from the same company.

No, it's that people don't like Steve. He's uninteresting and a lot of Smash fans dont care for Minecraft. Has nothing to do with Microsoft.

 

[Captain Shades]

I didn’t want to point it out since I didn’t want to come off as patronizing, but you do know that 2016’s Doom is, like, the fifth Doom, right?

I know, I meant in terms of being big on Nintendo, sorry for my poor wording. MC and Doom are sort of the newest in terms of big Nintendo support, MC starting in 2015 and Doom being a major Switch title in 2017. I said that because it was debated earlier that those two were too new when creating history with Nintendo to be in Smash. Sorry again, I came off the heals of debating if 3rd parties that are newer to Nintendo hardware, or made big splashes recently should be represented, so I phrased it as if I was still debating so.

I should also note that Doom did have releases on the GBA to add a little more history, though I don’t think anyone really played the Nintendo versions till recently.

Side note: Ringside Reporter is my ideal Rhythm Heaven rep. I'd love her and the wrestler as a unit that references the whole series. That'd be so much fun and their Smash 4 trophy was so clean and cute.


I can respect that. Personal bias wants Phoenix in as the DS third-party rep, but Resident Evil 4 was a MAJOR get for the GameCube at the time. I feel like either-or can work and it just comes down to what you want to see in terms of genres and protagonists. I guess I just see Phoenix as inexorably tied to Nintendo just like, say, Layton or Neku Sakuraba. Also, I'm a DS nerd and the DS is woefully underrepresented in Smash outside of, like, Lucario.

I actually really like considering newer properties and companies when it comes to inclusion. I was one of the people who was SUPER happy about Bayonetta because she represented a company sticking by Nintendo when they helped them get their game out. Same with MonolithSoft and Shulk. Bayo 2 was such a big get for Nintendo and the big N took the risk with her and her series and it became one of the Wii U's must-own titles.

So yeah! I do agree that companies who helped Nintendo or stuck by them in some big way should get recognition whether via stages, assist trophies, or fighters. It just depends on what the best form of rep is. Solid stuff.

Thanks, and I wouldn’t mind Phoenix at all, I’d just prefer a newer rep, they just mean more when a new company joins with their character. To me Phoenix is a representative of Ace Attorney and nothing else, whereas Rayman would be a representative of not only his franchise, but Nintendo’s partnership with Ubisoft.

I agree though, for being one of Nintendo’s best systems, the 3DS is way overlooked and I wish it was treated better in Smash and in general. The Wii/ DS era of Nintendo is still my favorite with many great games leading up until the 2010s, so I completely understand.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

No, it's that people don't like Steve. He's uninteresting and a lot of Smash fans dont care for Minecraft. Has nothing to do with Microsoft.

True, Im not looking forward to Steve.. I want to see Medusa!

Side note: Ringside Reporter is my ideal Rhythm Heaven rep. I'd love her and the wrestler as a unit that references the whole series. That'd be so much fun and their Smash 4 trophy was so clean and cute.


I can respect that. Personal bias wants Phoenix in as the DS third-party rep, but Resident Evil 4 was a MAJOR get for the GameCube at the time. I feel like either-or can work and it just comes down to what you want to see in terms of genres and protagonists. I guess I just see Phoenix as inexorably tied to Nintendo just like, say, Layton or Neku Sakuraba. Also, I'm a DS nerd and the DS is woefully underrepresented in Smash outside of, like, Lucario.

I actually really like considering newer properties and companies when it comes to inclusion. I was one of the people who was SUPER happy about Bayonetta because she represented a company sticking by Nintendo when they helped them get their game out. Same with MonolithSoft and Shulk. Bayo 2 was such a big get for Nintendo and the big N took the risk with her and her series and it became one of the Wii U's must-own titles.

So yeah! I do agree that companies who helped Nintendo or stuck by them in some big way should get recognition whether via stages, assist trophies, or fighters. It just depends on what the best form of rep is. Solid stuff.

I believe there will be a Rythm Heaven character this time, and Ringside Reporter seems to be the best character to add to represent that series, and I think shes is the most likely to be in.

We got one literally ten days ago, so I wouldn't expect anything until next month at the earliest.

Two per month makes the most sense, then show the rest with the entire roster on like December 3rd or something like that right before the game releases

 

[GoodGrief741]

I know, I meant in terms of being big on Nintendo, sorry for my poor wording. MC and Doom are sort of the newest in terms of big Nintendo support, MC starting in 2015 and Doom being a major Switch title in 2017. I said that because it was debated earlier that those two were too new when creating history with Nintendo to be in Smash. Sorry again, I came off the heals of debating if 3rd parties that are newer to Nintendo hardware, or made big splashes recently should be represented, so I phrased it as if I was still debating so.

I should also note that Doom did have releases on the GBA to add a little more history, though I don’t think anyone really played the Nintendo versions till recently.



Thanks, and I wouldn’t mind Phoenix at all, I’d just prefer a newer rep, they just mean more when a new company joins with their character. To me Phoenix is a representative of Ace Attorney and nothing else, whereas Rayman would be a representative of not only his franchise, but Nintendo’s partnership with Ubisoft.

I agree though, for being one of Nintendo’s best systems, the 3DS is way overlooked and I wish it was treated better in Smash and in general. The Wii/ DS era of Nintendo is still my favorite with many great games leading up until the 2010s, so I completely understand.

The OG Doom was on SNES, and that was regarded as the best console port of the game at the time. Doom 64 also happened. Doom has Nintendo history going way back.

 

[StormC]

Two per month makes the most sense, then show the rest with the entire roster on like December 3rd or something like that right before the game releases

Except they already had their chance to show off a character this month and they had just the one. There’s never multiple character reveals in the same month unless they’re in the same direct.

We’ll get the final Smash Direct with probably 2 unique reveals and any remaining echoes. However is left besides that is anybody’s guess. They definitely won’t reveal the last characters just a few days before release, risk of a leak is way too high. I expect the final blowout to be before the game goes gold.