Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Lamperouge]

Random question, but out of all the composers who have worked in Smash Ultimate who would you love to see remixing some Arms songs?

Jun Senoue and ACE+, let's goooooo

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm so confused. There are actually people rooting for ATs and Spirits to still count as deconfirmations?

Getting Spring Man or Twintelle doesn't automatically mean the rest of the pass will be ATs and Spirits. All it does is make it easier for characters who were once thought to he deconfirmed to be brought up in discussion.

No one should be happy if someone's favorite character is being shunned because of a popular fan rule. That's just petty.

 

[PSIGuy]

Its also possible they could reference character specific gimmicks in the moveset.

Okay yeah Springman utilizing Min Min's kicks would really strange, but so is Byleth wielding the signature weapons of all three lords at once (something not even possible in his source game). So is the Koopalings changing into Shadow Mario or Alph piloting Olimar's ship.

I can see why that might annoy people but there is a precedent for it and it can't be ruled out entirely.

the only reason Byleth stole other people's weaponry is because of unironic intense hatred towards Fire Emblem swordfighters that Sakurai directly acknowledged in several different ways from his columns, the presentation and even the script of the reveal trailer, and it still wasn't enough to tide people over because there's so god damn many FE characters that there's no goodwill towards them from a large amount of the Smash fanbase. it was pre-emptive damage control, trying to make the best of a terrible idea.

an ARMS character doesn't need to compromise on their core design like that because the entire mechanic of ARMS is unique to Smash. nor do they need to compromise like the Koopalings or Alph do because this fighter isn't a last second echo for the main game, they're not a costume for an existing character, they're a fully fledged DLC character with unique mechanics and resources put towards them.

finally even besides their gimmicks they all have actually different parameters;
https://i.imgur.com/w7WzIg7.jpg (not my image)
even among "the most similar in body size" there's a huge difference in speed, jump ability and gimmicks.

TL;DR there is no reason for an ARMS character to compromise what makes each character unique. there was reason to compromise Byleth to make them a more favorable addition and Koopalings/Alph are alts who don't get unique mechanics.

 

[Ridrool64]

I think people might be looking too hard into the whole "Mystery, thus not Spring Man (alone), it'd be too obvious" angle.

To the casual audience watching the Direct, it literally could be any of them. Unlike us, they probably don't care about speculation enough to think that way. Plus, Spring Man would likely have been mentioned as "not being it" if it really was. Even if they took hardcore speculators into account, which I imagine they didn't, we have pre-existing reasons to doubt Spring Man due to having base game content, including an Assist Trophy.

Sure, we might see things but I think this will probably end up as another "chairs mean Skull Kid/Waluigi/Shantae/etc." While it could end up not being Spring Man, and in theory the odds are against him (he has a 1/14 chance of being picked, assuming Springtron is not getting in before him and Biff doesn't count, as far as we know), but I don't think that the mystery angle they played it up as means anything.

As well they probably don't have gameplay of the ARMS character ready. The gameplay portions of the trailer don't just include the new fighter but also their stage, so it's entirely possible that the stage is still in a state they can't show, especially considering the you-know-what slowing development to a crawl and approaching a full-blown halt. As well, if the trailer is in CGI then it's likely that the trailer itself is also being delayed due to that which I will not name.

If I had to guess who it is, I'd say Spring Man, then the most popular character (either Min-Min or Twintelle), then Max Brass, then Dr. Coyle, then the other of Min-Min or Twintelle, Ribbon Girl or Ninjara, and then everybody else is in a huge tie for last. I believe the people more knowledgeable than me that Springtron stands absolutely no chance due to Spring Man being higher priority in every scenario. And, well, Biff and Hedlok might technically be on the table but we're probably gonna get a character we could actually play as in ARMS. Directly.

 

[Proceleon]

I'm so confused. There are actually people rooting for ATs and Spirits to still count as deconfirmations?

Getting Spring Man or Twintelle doesn't automatically mean the rest of the pass will be ATs and Spirits. All it does is make it easier for characters who were once thought to he deconfirmed to be brought up in discussion.

No one should be happy if someone's favorite character is being shunned because of a popular fan rule. That's just petty.

You know as well as I what the fanbase will do if even ONE of either gets in. No fandom needs that... especially this one.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

You know as well as I what the fanbase will do if even ONE of either gets in. No fandom needs that... especially this one.

Needs what? The ability to speculate about more characters?

 

[Louie G.]

I'd much rather have a character like that instead of allowing Ninjara to teleport or have Min Min kick someone at the expense of no alts.

Then our priorities are very different.

I understand where you're coming from with this, but at the end of the day you sacrifice character accuracy not just through moveset, but also through personality. Daisy and Peach, Samus and Dark Samus, Simon and Richter... these characters are barely different, but their separate presence on the roster allows them to have small but effective quirks that make them feel like their own character. Daisy and Dark Samus have unique idle animations that encapsulate their characters in ways that wouldn't be possible with a simple reskin / costume. And Richter... well he's pretty much the same thing but it's worth it for the peace sign victory pose.

Personality is a very important part of why I fall in love with many of the characters in Smash, and a big reason why I can't bring myself to latch onto some of the more stoic emotionless characters built to either cover as much ground as possible or are that way by design. In ARMS case, the distinct elements of every single character are what make that roster shine. Having Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Min Min and Ninjara all act the same would be a crime and it wouldn't even feel like you're playing as them.

Based on the decision to create certain echo fighters I have precedent to believe Sakurai feels the same, even ignoring the fact that of course they have completely unique abilities. And if they do go through with this composite ARMS character, even though I'm pretty confident myself that they won't, I will admittedly be disappointed because it squanders so much potential for a character bursting with personality in exchange for a blank canvas.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Oh, ditto. I can't wait to be here the day the Pro-Spiriters get shut down, because I WILL be playing Crab Rave afterwards!

Going to be saving this quote for if it actually is Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, etc., so I can laugh at the Anti-Spiriters instead.

 

[N3ON]

You know as well as I what the fanbase will do if even ONE of either gets in. No fandom needs that... especially this one.

What? There will be some gloaters and some whiners for a bit and meanwhile popular characters are back on the table and we never have to deal with the spirits/ATs deconfirm debate again?

Seems like a small price to pay.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally wouldn't mind the possibility of spirits and assist trophies not deconfirming characters.

Not sure if I really, really want any of the assists or spirits as fighters as much as other people may do, but It would surely make speculation way more open and give a lot of window to talk about.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You know as well as I what the fanbase will do if even ONE of either gets in. No fandom needs that... especially this one.

There will be a bunch of whiners regardless of the outcome. Your seemed pleasure in their hopes getting dashed isn't going to change that, it just makes you sound like a jerk.

 

[Ridrool64]

I only truly want one character, and she currently has no content. Even of my own top 5, I still only want one Spirit promotion. Everybody else I'd really like has no content.

I still don't see how Spirit/AT promotions are anything but good.

 

[KillerCage]

Do I have to remind everyone that we have an unanswered question hanging around here?
Where did the claim of "Ridley was used as a base for Banjo & Kazooie" come from?
So far I haven't seen any proof of this claim being real.
Please provide citation for this "information!"

 

[I.D.]

The argument for spirits and whatever deconfirming was never about the spirits themselves; it would be stupid easy to find ways to circumvent them. It was the reasoning behind them: "this game already has significant content in Ultimate, therefore it was considered but a playable character ultimately didn't make the cut, so it's over for it". By having the next character be from ARMS, a game that already has spirits, mii costumes and an assist trophy, this reasoning is already destroyed. It wouldn't even matter if the character was Lola Pop or something, though I expect one of the spirits to be the character as they are the most popular characters.

 

[PSIGuy]

It's entirely possible we get a character who was a Spirit or Assist Trophy... and then none of the other characters are Spirits or Assist Trophies. Same with first party characters, our only one in Fighter Pass 1 was Byleth who was revealed right at the end. This is that in reverse; even if we end up with Minmin up front we could easily get 5 third party characters next. The characters are already decided, it's already -possible-, but it doesn't make your most wanted's chances any better unless they are the character decided on.

 

[wynn728]

Not for us. We want Spring Man, because we want Isaac. And having Spring Man would be great for Isaac.

Having it be Spring Man doesn't really do anything for Isaac because they could still not include him even if other Assist Trophies became playable. It's like how people really thought that Geno was extremely likely because they were putting in these super requested characters like Ridley and K. Rool, and it turned out Piranha Plant got in instead and there were zero plans to ever include Geno.

 

[Proceleon]

There will be a bunch of whiners regardless of the outcome. Your seemed pleasure in their hopes getting dashed isn't going to change that, it just makes you sound like a jerk.

Well I don't think I'm the only one who just really wants this ridiculous debate to be put to bed for good. It may be harsh, but it's worth it if this whole thing is finally over.

 

[Louie G.]

It's entirely possible we get a character who was a Spirit or Assist Trophy... and then none of the other characters are Spirits or Assist Trophies. Same with first party characters, our only one in Fighter Pass 1 was Byleth who was revealed right at the end. This is that in reverse; even if we end up with Minmin up front we could easily get 5 third party characters next. The characters are already decided, it's already -possible-, but it doesn't make your most wanted's chances any better unless they are the character decided on.

I would be satisfied enough seeing that everyone who jumped the gun on this and vehemently insisted that characters with spirits were not possible at all would need to eat crow and accept that it was a baseless limitation to begin with. I'm not one to be spiteful about things like this but some people have been particularly nasty about this whole debacle.

I mean hell, even if they go with Max Brass or Dr. Coyle or something, there's not much reason for me to believe that if Nintendo really wanted to push for a character who already has a spirit that they couldn't convince Sakurai to fall back on that. It's just this inflated importance of a feature that is literally just there because it's easier than trophies. My most wanted is a spirit but hell if I think they have any sort of chance right now. Maybe if we get a new Rhythm Heaven at E3.

Well I don't think I'm the only one who just really wants this ridiculous debate to be put to bed for good. It may be harsh, but it's worth it if this whole thing is finally over.

Having spirits disconfirmed puts the debate to bed too, I don't get it.

 

[GoodGrief741]

You know as well as I what the fanbase will do if even ONE of either gets in. No fandom needs that... especially this one.

I'm honestly curious about what you think will happen. We're just a bunch of people talking over the internet, aside from maybe be vocal about a character and leading to their inclusion, nothing that happens here will cause any change in the world. Aside from that... Maybe a bunch of people will think their favorite characters have a shot?

Well I don't think I'm the only one who just really wants this ridiculous debate to be put to bed for good. It may be harsh, but it's worth it if this whole thing is finally over.

The debate also ends if ATs, Mii Costumes, and Spirits don't disconfirm, and that way the debate ends with more people satisfied. There's no reason to want what you want unless you specifically want people not to get what they want.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Koppa Kids work because really, the car is the character. Here we're talking about characters who clearly have different moves in their game and would behave different. Would it be Min Min if she didn't have the dragon arm? Would it be Ribbon Girl if she couldn't do her multiple jumps. Would it be normal that Ninjara is walking out with Toasters rather than his own arms?

No, but, they'd still be in Smash.

If you'd rather a character not be in Smash at all, than be in Smash in a way that's not 100% accurate, then you don't give a **** about that character.

You know as well as I what the fanbase will do if even ONE of either gets in. No fandom needs that... especially this one.

No, what the fandom doesn't need is more turds thinking that their *****y fanrules actually have merit.

 

[Louie G.]

If you'd rather a character not be in Smash at all, than be in Smash in a way that's not 100% accurate, then you don't give a **** about that character.

I love the cast of Street Fighter, but if people were insisting that Chun-Li should be an alt of Ryu why the **** would I want that? There's a difference between lackluster representation and blatant disregard for source material. This get what you get and don't get upset mentality doesn't work here.

Nobody is saying it needs to be note for note accurate, just that this suggestion does not represent the cast of ARMS in a way that is even 50% accurate.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

Call me absolutely insane if you guys want to, but, as someone who has played a CONSIDERABLE amount of ARMS in the past, around 60 hours or so, I absolutely think the 4 in one idea could work perfectly fine. Would it be a ‘stretch’ (heh)? Sure, but liberties are taken in movesets all across the roster, I don’t particularly expect that the composite idea will happen now upon thinking it over, but it definitely could work especially if it’s just the prime four mascots, coming from someone who HAS played the game in the past extensively

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think the people that don't think ARMS alts would do the characters justice and the people that do just aren't picturing the same thing in their minds.

I saw someone mention that Mechanica and Helix couldn't work as alts for Spring Man. Of course they can't, nobody's expecting that to be a thing.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Even if the Arms character is one of the spirit I don't think it inherently means anything for other spirit characters.

Sakurai said it himself that the DLC characters are characters picked for the gameplay variety. So that probably rules out a good chunk of them.

And in Isaacs case most of the important Golden Sun characters are already spirits so there's practically nothing to use as material for a spirit board.

 

[Proceleon]

I'm honestly curious about what you think will happen. We're just a bunch of people talking over the internet, aside from maybe be vocal about a character and leading to their inclusion, nothing that happens here will cause any change in the world. Aside from that... Maybe a bunch of people will think their favorite characters have a shot?


The debate also ends if ATs, Mii Costumes, and Spirits don't disconfirm, and that way the debate ends with more people satisfied. There's no reason to want what you want unless you specifically want people not to get what they want.

There's just a fine line where optimism leaves realism, and it's a line I think a lot of fans have long since crossed, most likely while drunk on hype.
Don't get me wrong, I would love, nay, adore if Krystal were possible. But she isn't, and there's nothing I can do about that, and that's okay.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I love the cast of Street Fighter, but if people were insisting that Chun-Li should be an alt of Ryu why the **** would I want that? There's a difference between lackluster representation and blatant disregard for source material. This get what you get and don't get upset mentality doesn't work here.

You can BE upset that they did a crap job. But if you'd honestly be happier if they didn't get in at all...I don't know what's wrong with you.

Well I don't think I'm the only one who just really wants this ridiculous debate to be put to bed for good. It may be harsh, but it's worth it if this whole thing is finally over.

Except your outcome doesn't ACTUALLY end the debate. It just remains where it is now, at "Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't happen".

The only way it ACTUALLY ends, is if an AT/spirit gets promoted. Because that actually proves one side wrong. You just don't want that because...well, it'd be your side.

 

[SmashChu]

No, but, they'd still be in Smash.

If you'd rather a character not be in Smash at all, than be in Smash in a way that's not 100% accurate, then you don't give a **** about that character.

Seeing as how people have been complaing for years how Ganondorf was portrayed in Smash and how he wasn't like the games, I'd say its better to do one character correctly than trying to cram a bunch of poorly done characters into one.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Seeing as how people have been complaing for years how Ganondorf was portrayed in Smash and how he wasn't like the games

And I am 100% one of those people. And I hope with each new game that they fix him.

But until then, I damn sure wouldn't be happier with NO Ganondorf in the game.

 

[Proceleon]

Seeing as how people have been complaing for years how Ganondorf was portrayed in Smash and how he wasn't like the games, I'd say its better to do one character correctly than trying to cram a bunch of poorly done characters into one.

They'd likely compromise and have a singular character use multiple arms in their attacks to reference other characters. Switching Arms is a major mechanic after all.
Need I remind people here that none of Ness and Lucas' moves are their own?

 

[Cosmic77]

Basically, it all comes down to what you find more important – accurately representing a character or having them playable.

I know that Dark Samus would never have gotten in Ultinate if she weren't an Echo. It sucks that she wasn't given her full potential, but at least I can actually play as her instead of only occasionally summoning her as an AT. Likewise, the odds of multiple ARMS characters getting in Ultimate are slim. If Sakurai chooses a single character, then only the fans of that character get to celebrate. They got their accurately depicted character while the fans of every other character start coping with the loss.

Obviously it's not possible to make all 15 ARMS characters fit into one moveset, but even if Sakurai could make just one alt, more people are going to get a character that they wanted than there would be if he had settled for no alts.

 

[masterluigi1]

I think I have even more reason to think it's Min Min now.

So, remember that glitch that happened with Bayonetta after that small buff in 7.0.0 that made her shield bigger?

discovered a glitch with bayo. if you're hit then immediately smash attack the first opportunity you have, bayonetta's outfit doesn't disappear. this lasts until you lose a stock and it looks really messy lol. ANY character can do this to bayo btw, not just the ditto. pic.twitter.com/eAU1MJfkSS

— CaptainZack (@CaptainZack_) January 29, 2020

This has happened before with Banjo and Hero with the Duck Hunt and Mii Swordfighter glitch that crashed the game, and most recently Byleth from a visual glitch with Simon and Richter charging their whips.

https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/494706623/#494706623

Considering the similarities between these characters (Banjo and Duck Hunt both having somewhat similar features, Mii Swordfighter having multiple specials like Hero, and Byleth using a whip-like attack like the Belmonts) it's very safe to assume these characters were used as bases for development of the other characters.

So that would mean Fighter 6 would need to use Bayonetta as a base, someone with aerial kicks and plenty of range with normals and specials. And which ARMS character just so happens to use kicks to attack and deflect enemy attacks?

Wouldn't twintelle fit Bayo better as a base?

 

[Undella2]

Even if the Arms character is one of the spirit I don't think it inherently means anything for other spirit characters.

Sakurai said it himself that the DLC characters are characters picked for the gameplay variety. So that probably rules out a good chunk of them.

And in Isaacs case most of the important Golden Sun characters are already spirits so there's practically nothing to use as material for a spirit board.

If they, for whatever reason, decided to put Isaac in, Piers and Sheba, two notable party members from the second game, along with the non-Matthew party members and the Tuaparang commanders from the third game, Alex, the main villain of the series, and the Prox-ian villain-duos of the first and second games all still aren't represented as spirits.

The most iconic characters are already spirits, sure, but that doesn't mean that every important GS character with artwork is already represented in such a way.

 

[Guynamednelson]

If they, for whatever reason, decided to put Isaac in, Piers and Sheba, two notable party members from the second game, along with the non-Matthew party members and the Tuaparang commanders from the third game, Alex, the main villain of the series, and the Prox-ian villain-duos of the first and second games all still aren't represented as spirits.

The most iconic characters are already spirits, sure, but that doesn't mean that every important GS character with artwork is already represented in such a way.

And they can even make spirits of the four different types of Djinn to top it off.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They'd likely compromise and have a singular character use multiple arms in their attacks to reference other characters. Switching Arms is a major mechanic after all.
Need I remind people here that none of Ness and Lucas' moves are their own?

...The bat? The yo-yo? The snake?

Their special moves, yes, but Ness and Lucas do their own moves too. I agree with your point, mind you. I think an alt situation can work. What really needs to be done is having better personality displayed for the alts, something that is the main problem with Alph(but seeing as how Byleth has slightly different idles, which is odd, since any animations can cause gameplay differences, this isn't impossible). So getting their personality right I worry less about.

There's no denying alts wouldn't be perfectly accurate. It'd represent the series well, but not the characters perfectly. I think for the sake of fun gameplay, representing the series well is most important.

 

[TheCJBrine]

There's just a fine line where optimism leaves realism, and it's a line I think a lot of fans have long since crossed, most likely while drunk on hype.

It is perfectly realistic to think AT/Spirit characters are possible, especially if the ARMS character is one. It could still be realistic anyway because as far as we know, Nintendo and Sakurai could have an open mind for them since no official statements have been said regarding what disconfirms them.

If the spirits disconfirm thing is wrong, this whole debate ends, and you still get what you want, unless what you want is to have some dumb enforcement of negativity on everyone, since you apparently can't handle others being optimisitc and/or you generalize all of them as toxic or something (I'd say how you talked about it some posts ago in here was really toxic anyway).

edit: PK Flash is Ness's own move.

 

[TriggerX]

So no lie, I’m trying to figure out why existing characters that glitch or have issues might be somehow related to another character coming?

I’m not saying it’s impossible, but even if I were to be developing a game I’d probably just roll back the code on any changes I’ve made anyways. Even most tweaks to the existing character’s themselves are just probably parameter changes. So it’s difficult to see why that would cause any issues.
I mean I guess I’d have to see how certain things were specifically coded to understand why.

 

[Ben Holt]

That's not going to make everyone mad.
Anyone that's tired of the "No ATs!" "No Spirits" "No Mii Custumes" fanrules that doesn't have a problem with protags being picked first is going to be happy with that pick.

I'm for Spring Man for all those reasons.

 

[Proceleon]

Wouldn't twintelle fit Bayo better as a base?

The problem there is we don't know WHAT they're using Bayo for. There are moves like Byleth's whip that sort of re-purpose things from other Fighters. Bayo's Wicked Weaves are likely being used as a basis for the Arms punches, which applies to literally every Fighter there, so it's hard to say what they're using for what purpose.
When the Fighter gets released, we'll likely see a similarity between something in Bayo and the Arms fighter, most probably the punches.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Why has no one posted an link or source of Ridley being an base for Banjo yet? People have been asking still no answer.

 

[SmashChu]

Not necessarily. The ARMS that are interchangeable are what makes the characters so unique. Sure, they all have a little gimmick that can spice up the game and give you better movement options that better fit your play style but by and large every arm is unlockable for every character. Meaning that every character isn't AS unique as people are making it out to be.

Certain ones like Bite and Barq or whatever or Mechanica make a HUGE gameplay difference but a lot of them are just tailored for specific playstyles while mixing up the Arms on different character is what really matters. Which COULD be done in Smash however janky it may end up being. Otherwise, certain moves like Min-Min's kicks could be simplified and included for every character across the board.

This couldn't be further from the truth. To illistrate, here is the ARMS Character showcase that was part of the ARMS Direct
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYAVrmg_Vbc

Notice how they go through each character ability first. Even those ARMS are their signature ones. To take it one step further, even if you just say "Oh they can change the ARMS, whats the different," it would be weird if they aren't using their signature ones in lieu of another character's. While every character can use all the ARMS, there are always 3 that are signature for them.

This idea of "Make them like the Koppalings" sounds like a lot of Smash fans who never touched ARMS. The abilities define how they play and also help define who they are. I can put it no better than this: why the heck would Springman, Ribbon Girl and Ninjara start kicking when the reason Min Min kicks because she's specifically a "certified martial arts master".