Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[BlueMonk]

He plays western games guys....

He spoke at length about MC and has streamed Fall Out, I doubt he hasn’t put in a character because he’s not familiar with western series.

I know. I mentioned that in my post. I'm saying that he and his team are simply more likely to put in Japanese characters because they're more likely to care about those characters. Remember that, even if Sakurai has played plenty of western games, his team might not have. He is not the only one involved in deciding the roster.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

How is it not? The argument was "people don't buy Mario games for the characters, they buy it for the gameplay", which doesn't hold water when the spin offs exist, and sell well. And even if we specifically refer to the mainline games, and while it is true that people care about those mostly for the gameplay, you cannot deny the Mario cast isn't at least a big contributor that leads people to buying those games to begin with.

It doesn't count because he is talking about the platformers only.

The Mario cast is memorable because of the spin-offs. They were otherwise blank characters till the 3D Mario Platformers and spin-offs came around. People didn't remember Mario because he was Mario, they remembered him for being the basic avatar you play as, not unlike most video games as is. He had absolutely no personality till a severely later time, even in the games as is. His design is memorable. His personality isn't if you only played the games. He barely has one as is.

Why does it matter that he wasn't remembered for being a character then if he's remembered for being one now?

Plus, what did you expect? He hails from an era when making iconic, timeless characters was far from a priority. Developers didn't really care about that until the 16 bit era, thanks to likes of Sonic. It would not be until later when his personality and character would be much more solidified and established and... well that takes full circle. He's a character *now*, even if he really wasn't one *then*, as opposed to Steve, who, while recognizable, isn't himself an icon *now*.

You're missing the overall point. Mario is memorable for being the main playable character in an amazing game. That's why Steve is memorable. Mario just had way more years and spin-offs to give him an actual personality. Steve never got this. They started off exactly the same overall. As your player avatar. Just like most games have done. It took a far longer time for video games to apply a proper set of characterizations to separate them from avatars. Even Mother did a way better job establishing exact personalities, but that doesn't mean every RPG did. Dragon Warrior 2 did nothing to really make the characters easy to remember. It's just the Hero design people know and love(outside of the iconic Slime, anyway).

Opossum's right. The 2D platformers weren't designed to give you a character you could easily see as someone with a vast personality. It was designed to have an easy to look at character that you could play and simply interact with the world. The most basic video game premise. Once the 3D platformers hit, they evolved the style of characters to actually have far more personality and feel less like a blank slate. Things changed since then. We barely got anything for Mario in the earlier games other than quick pose here or there at the end of the stage. They didn't establish anything of real note yet. The 3D games started to do a bit more, giving him a voice, for starters. Actual proper dialogue in that regard. More facial expressions. Bowser and the Koopalings had some personality otherwise among the 2D platformers, and the first characters to really do. Super Mario World gave Yoshi a bit, but other than that, Mario and Luigi had nothing to really cling onto beyond memorable designs yet. It also doesn't help that the spin-offs didn't do anything outside of Toad getting a bit more with Wario's Woods' voice clips breathing some life into the character. After Super Mario 64, they bothered to establish actual personalities for the extended Mario crew, as well as the current ones. We saw way more. Smash actually did a lot to help make them feel more than "oh, they exist" overall too.

 

[Nquoid]

It doesn't count because he is talking about the platformers only.

The Mario cast is memorable because of the spin-offs. They were otherwise blank characters till the 3D Mario Platformers and spin-offs came around. People didn't remember Mario because he was Mario, they remembered him for being the basic avatar you play as, not unlike most video games as is. He had absolutely no personality till a severely later time, even in the games as is. His design is memorable. His personality isn't if you only played the games. He barely has one as is.


You're missing the overall point. Mario is memorable for being the main playable character in an amazing game. That's why Steve is memorable. Mario just had way more years and spin-offs to give him an actual personality. Steve never got this. They started off exactly the same overall. As your player avatar. Just like most games have done. It took a far longer time for video games to apply a proper set of characterizations to separate them from avatars. Even Mother did a way better job establishing exact personalities, but that doesn't mean every RPG did. Dragon Warrior 2 did nothing to really make the characters easy to remember. It's just the Hero design people know and love(outside of the iconic Slime, anyway).

Opossum's right. The 2D platformers weren't designed to give you a character you could easily see as someone with a vast personality. It was designed to have an easy to look at character that you could play and simply interact with the world. The most basic video game premise. Once the 3D platformers hit, they evolved the style of characters to actually have far more personality and feel less like a blank slate. Things changed since then. We barely got anything for Mario in the earlier games other than quick pose here or there at the end of the stage. They didn't establish anything of real note yet. The 3D games started to do a bit more, giving him a voice, for starters. Actual proper dialogue in that regard. More facial expressions. Bowser and the Koopalings had some personality otherwise among the 2D platformers, and the first characters to really do. Super Mario World gave Yoshi a bit, but other than that, Mario and Luigi had nothing to really cling onto beyond memorable designs yet. It also doesn't help that the spin-offs didn't do anything outside of Toad getting a bit more with Wario's Woods' voice clips breathing some life into the character. After Super Mario 64, they bothered to establish actual personalities for the extended Mario crew, as well as the current ones. We saw way more. Smash actually did a lot to help make them feel more than "oh, they exist" overall too.

Super Mario Bros. 2, whilst being based on Doki Doki Panic, actually went a long way to giving Mario a personality. The gameplay traits that Mario, Luigi, Toad and Peach all exhibited are still to this day, indelible parts of the way the characters are played nowadays. Those difference in gameplay styles went a long way to contributing character traits towards Mario. Far more so than what are ostensibly skins in Minecraft. I agree that Donkey Kong, Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. all have blank slate characters at their centre.

Then when we jump to the SNES and the animation style becomes so much more advanced and Super Mario World is such a huge leap, that saying he was a a blank slate before the 3D platformers is ignoring the advances that Super Mario Bros. 2, 3 and World made.

No one would argue that gameplay isn't the most important part of the Mario series. But they were building the personality of the character through gameplay and animation for years before the N64.

Sonic is as popular as he is because those Genesis games ooze personality, and if anything the 3D games actually lost that a little bit. And whilst Link does get mistaken for Zelda by the layman, you can't look at the animation for The Wind Waker and tell me that that isn't some of the most expressive and character defining animation that you've seen for a character who is entirely a blank slate character.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Super Mario Bros. 2, whilst being based on Doki Doki Panic, actually went a long way to giving Mario a personality. The gameplay traits that Mario, Luigi, Toad and Peach all exhibited are still to this day, indelible parts of the way the characters are played nowadays. Those difference in gameplay styles went a long way to contributing character traits towards Mario. Far more so than what are ostensibly skins in Minecraft. I agree that Donkey Kong, Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. all have blank slate characters at their centre.

Then when we jump to the SNES and the animation style becomes so much more advanced and Super Mario World is such a huge leap, that saying he was a a blank slate before the 3D platformers is ignoring the advances that Super Mario Bros. 2, 3 and World made.

No one would argue that gameplay isn't the most important part of the Mario series. But they were building the personality of the character through gameplay and animation for years before the N64.

Honestly, I wouldn't say they heavily established the personalities through that either. It's decent, but that's it. They're no longer blank slates, at least.

Sonic is as popular as he is because those Genesis games ooze personality, and if anything the 3D games actually lost that a little bit. And whilst Link does get mistaken for Zelda by the layman, you can't look at the animation for The Wind Waker and tell me that that isn't some of the most expressive and character defining animation that you've seen for a character who is entirely a blank slate character.

Sonic established vastly more personality on his own. The taunts in Smash are effectively based upon his consistent personality. Another thing is that the cartoons are based upon his actual game personality. There was also things like various manuals that established who he is. Mario didn't actually have that factor specifically. Mario has barebones personality, and it's still fairly bare even after the 3D games did a lot to properly establish his personality. Mario went from blank slate to "well, we can see a bit of personality in there" in Mario 2.

Wind Waker also way a significantly later game and stars a completely different Link. By then Link's personality and character was way more established. It wasn't till ALTTP that they made it more clear who Link is supposed to be. Zelda 1 and 2 barely will tell you anything unless you looked at the manuals. Not everybody did. It's not just a meme that people mistook Link for Zelda, it's a legitimate thing. This didn't happen with Mario or Sonic either. They were better established overall from the getgo.

It's an exaggeration to say much was established for him in Mario 2, really. What it did help a bit is inspiring the Super Mario Bros. Show, which did a lot to make him more memorable as a character, despite being an off-media spinoff of the series. Mario-kun exists too. It's just in the games he's flat as a character. The biggest thing was still the memorable design thanks to the amazing and consistent gameplay, which makes you want more games, which is also how you can recognize the character.

But again, Steve is the same start-off as a character. Blank slate personality, amazing gameplay. Mario just took a while to actually get a real personality(as bleh as it is).

----------------------------

Also, for those who said they didn't see Steve a lot, this isn't that true; he's on the covers, there's a 3rd person mode. That's not counting seeing him due to watching another player playing as him. Also, of course they saw him easily; they have skin choices to buy. His design is very much put out there for you to see.

 

[SchAlternate]

You're missing the overall point. Mario is memorable for being the main playable character in an amazing game. That's why Steve is memorable. Mario just had way more years and spin-offs to give him an actual personality. Steve never got this. They started off exactly the same overall. As your player avatar. Just like most games have done. It took a far longer time for video games to apply a proper set of characterizations to separate them from avatars. Even Mother did a way better job establishing exact personalities, but that doesn't mean every RPG did. Dragon Warrior 2 did nothing to really make the characters easy to remember. It's just the Hero design people know and love(outside of the iconic Slime, anyway).

Right. Mario and Steve both started off as blank slates that only served to represent the player in the game. And they both became recognizable based on their design alone. But, Mario actually went and got himself a more established character and personality, explored multiple more genres, gained a cast of companions and enemies, and starred in a lot more games. As the games became more and more sophisticated, so did Mario.

Steve, in the 10 years Minecraft has been a phenomenon, hasn't evolved. He was never given a personality, or an identity. Minecraft has received update after update, expanded several times, and even got a story driven spin off, and yet Steve was part of none of it, staying as some sort of relic from the game's humble beginnings. Hell, he himself is so unimportant to the game, one of the bigger features of Minecraft involve completely replacing him. Yes, his design is recognizable, but that's all he is. A design. A placeholder. He's no more recognizable than some of the mobs you find in the game, particularly Creeper.

Now, I'm not saying that, by design and brand name alone, Steve can't get in Smash. It's just that people give him way more credit than he really deserves.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Right. Mario and Steve both started off as blank slates that only served to represent the player in the game. And they both became recognizable based on their design alone. But, Mario actually went and got himself a more established character and personality, explored multiple more genres, gained a cast of companions and enemies, and starred in a lot more games. As the games became more and more sophisticated, so did Mario.

Which is besides the point. He didn't need that to be memorable. Nor did Mario. They started off exactly the same. That's more than enough for why Steve should get in Smash. He's a gaming icon. He doesn't need more beyond that(as long as he has the moveset potential, which he does). The hardest thing going for him at best is if Sakurai is able to really talk to Microsoft easily enough while working on the character. It's a communications issue that could be why we have yet to have a 100% Western character. It could be part of why Rayman was ignored as a possibility beyond a Trophy/Spirit. Maybe this is why Shovel Knight is a simple AT. The communication barrier is a thing.

Steve, in the 10 years Minecraft has been a phenomenon, hasn't evolved. He was never given a personality, or an identity. Minecraft has received update after update, expanded several times, and even got a story driven spin off, and yet Steve was part of none of it, staying as some sort of relic from the game's humble beginnings. Hell, he himself is so unimportant to the game, one of the bigger features of Minecraft involve completely replacing him. Yes, his design is recognizable, but that's all he is. A design. A placeholder. He's no more recognizable than some of the mobs you find in the game, particularly Creeper.

He's not really a placeholder either. He's the main character and treated as such too. Just some don't like him, some Mojang employees included. He's still a gaming icon regardless, no different from Mario. He's still vastly important to the franchise and always will be. It doesn't mean every game will star him. It's not like every game in the Mario series directly stars Mario. Mario is Missing is just one of those games.

Now, I'm not saying that, by design and brand name alone, Steve can't get in Smash. It's just that people give him way more credit than he really deserves.

No, he's getting the credit he deserves. He's literally the face of the franchise.

Saying he's the only memorable character would be unfair, but he is still a major gaming icon. Being a gaming icon isn't about personality anyway. It's about recognition. Which Steve has in spades. Right up there with the biggest and most notable.

 

[Ridrool64]

Well, some of the Mario platformers do involve picking your favorites and going wild with them, but the cast is primarily taking a backseat to the rest of the game. Steve, however, is almost a complete non-entity unless you go out of your way to make him visible. I wouldn't exactly call that a fair comparison: I imagine most players don't even see more of Steve than his arms, and usually only his right arm. Be honest, how many of you actually switch to third-person view? At least Mario is always constantly visible. And besides, what does this actually do to Steve's chances? It doesn't suddenly amount to Sakurai personally saying "Banjo and Kazooie are in", it's not an animated trailer for Master Chief. If Sakurai thinks "hmm, the main player character from Minecraft is on this list, and I think I can make this guy work", he won't suddenly go "oh wait, he's pretty much a total non-entity in his game. Aww man, I have to do Banjo now."

I'm not even opposed to Steve. I think he would be a great addition that would represent the new biggest game of all time. But I wouldn't say that he's an identical case to Mario. Nor is that actually something that's a problem.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

The hardest thing going for him at best is if Sakurai is able to really talk to Microsoft easily enough while working on the character.

Or maybe there's another highly-requested character Sakurai and Nintendo would prioritize as DLC given the boom of N64-era nostalgia? Steve wouldn't necessarily be the best option to sell, especially given how he's been getting phased out of Minecraft's marketing over time. Alex is much more utilized then Steve when it comes to Minecraft's marketing as of late, so he's clearly not even that important to his own franchise anymore if he's been replaced. Steve has always been a blank default avatar, that's why Minecraft lets people make and share custom skins to begin with.

He's nothing more then a basic starter skin that you can easily replace with something you prefer, not a character.

He's not really a placeholder either. He's the main character and treated as such too. Just some don't like him, some Mojang employees included. He's still a gaming icon regardless, no different from Mario. He's still vastly important to the franchise and always will be. It doesn't mean every game will star him. It's not like every game in the Mario series directly stars Mario. Mario is Missing is just one of those games.

Again, if he's not a placeholder then why was he completely replaced by Alex in the marketing for Minecraft content on Xbox? He's clearly not that important to the brand anymore if all the marketing is phasing him out for a different entity. Steve is a blank slate that only exists as a default skin for players to replace with their own stuff. That's why Minecraft offers so many skins; to personalize the blank slate to your preferred look.

No, he's getting the credit he deserves. He's literally the face of the franchise. Saying he's the only memorable character would be unfair, but he is still a major gaming icon. Being a gaming icon isn't about personality anyway. It's about recognition. Which Steve has in spades. Right up there with the biggest and most notable.

You can put literally anything from Minecraft in front of someone and they'll recognize it. Steve is not iconic, Minecraft is. And you can do FAR more with Minecraft as a stage concept then you can with Steve as a fighter. By the "Minecraft iconism = needs Smash rep" logic, a Creeper AT would be even better since Creepers are much, MUCH more iconic then Steve.

 

[Door Key Pig]

If we're not getting a western character I highly doubt it will be because negotiations are "more difficult". It will probably be because they simply weren't picked.

Like if they could negotiate Shovel Knight as an AT (did that include character accuracy from creator input?)
Though do you think, at least to start off with, it should be a Western character Japan also loves? Granted, SK may or may not fall under that and he got to be the first Western-created and owned character to get an on-stage appearance (?), but it'd help weed out the options a bit. Maybe Microsoft stuff of Minecraft and Banjo, Crash Bandicoot still gets pleasant respect over there in character polls and that upcoming Japanese music festival whatever thing, even if the most recent Crash game only sold alright second time round over there (?), who else could we picture that's popular in Japan too?

 

[BlueMonk]

I feel like when it comes to third parties the popularity of a character doesn't matter, it's more about the series they represent. Minecraft fans are probably more likely to have endermen or creepers as their favorite characters, sure, but if Steve is the character that will represent the game then they'll band behind him. He absolutely would sell, it's about minecraft, not steve. Could a stage represent minecraft better than a character? Maybe. Would a minecraft fan want just a stage when they could have a character? Not at all. Now, I'm a Monster Hunter supporter. Can I admit that Ratholos probably represents Monster Hunter best? Yes, because the boss fight really is the best way to represent the franchise. Do I still want a playable hunter? Hell yeah! And I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find a monster hunter fan who doesn't feel the same way. This went in a different way than I expected, but I hope my point is clear.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Or maybe there's another highly-requested character Sakurai and Nintendo would prioritize as DLC given the boom of N64-era nostalgia? Steve wouldn't necessarily be the best option to sell, especially given how he's been getting phased out of Minecraft's marketing over time. Alex is much more utilized then Steve when it comes to Minecraft's marketing as of late, so he's clearly not even that important to his own franchise anymore if he's been replaced. Steve has always been a blank default avatar, that's why Minecraft lets people make and share custom skins to begin with.

He's nothing more then a basic starter skin that you can easily replace with something you prefer, not a character.

So was Mario in Super Mario Bros. There was not tangible difference.

Custom skins are fun and people like to do so. That doesn't really mean he's isn't a gaming icon. There's a ton of Mario hacks that replace Mario with other stuff. Villager has a ton of potential designs in-game. Villager is still a pretty recognizable design. Hell, Link has gotten more avatar-like in BOTW. Doesn't change who is the important one either. He was never really a placeholder overall. He's the main recognizable design. The gameplay allows for alternate skins due to how easy it is to mod a block figure with a skin. it's a consequence of the gameplay, not something that hurts Steve's massive iconic factor.

Again, if he's not a placeholder then why was he completely replaced by Alex in the marketing for Minecraft content on Xbox? He's clearly not that important to the brand anymore if all the marketing is phasing him out for a different entity. Steve is a blank slate that only exists as a default skin for players to replace with their own stuff. That's why Minecraft offers so many skins; to personalize the blank slate to your preferred look.

You mean the second main character is someone they'd rather promote? Because that's why. They're both highly iconic characters. It's no different from Liu Kang being replaced by Scorpion as the promotional main character. Doesn't make them less iconic.

You can put literally anything from Minecraft in front of someone and they'll recognize it. Steve is not iconic, Minecraft is. And you can do FAR more with Minecraft as a stage concept then you can with Steve as a fighter. By the "Minecraft iconism = needs Smash rep" logic, a Creeper AT would be even better since Creepers are much, MUCH more iconic then Steve.

Steve is still more iconic and more recognizable, really. Everybody sees him immediately and knows who he is. Creeper AT is even less likely to happen.

Steve is absolutely iconic. He's still the face of the franchise and is still on the game cover. The only cover he isn't on is a game where's not actually the main character of(Story Mode and Dungeons, which is understandable). They can promote many, but it doesn't mean that the face of the franchise suddenly changes. He'll stop being the face when the main series stops putting him on the main cover of the actual game. That's his purpose. He is Mr. Minecraft.

 

[Ridrool64]

A Puyo Puyo-match based Assist Trophy is just fine to represent that aspect of Puyo, but you won't see me call it quits on Arle anytime soon. (Though, that Assist neglects the other half of its appeal, a bunch of Puyo spirits would finish THAT side up.)

Also, for a western third party that's popular in Japan, I am pleased to say (and, if for whatever reason you don't want Undertale characters in Smash, sorry to say) that Frisk and Sans make the cut for that call. Though I will actually give credit to Sans for being extremely popular there, as a completely serious request. Aside from that, can't really think of much.

 

[SchAlternate]

Which is besides the point. He didn't need that to be memorable. Nor did Mario. They started off exactly the same. That's more than enough for why Steve should get in Smash. He's a gaming icon. He doesn't need more beyond that(as long as he has the moveset potential, which he does). The hardest thing going for him at best is if Sakurai is able to really talk to Microsoft easily enough while working on the character. It's a communications issue that could be why we have yet to have a 100% Western character. It could be part of why Rayman was ignored as a possibility beyond a Trophy/Spirit. Maybe this is why Shovel Knight is a simple AT. The communication barrier is a thing.


He's not really a placeholder either. He's the main character and treated as such too. Just some don't like him, some Mojang employees included. He's still a gaming icon regardless, no different from Mario. He's still vastly important to the franchise and always will be. It doesn't mean every game will star him. It's not like every game in the Mario series directly stars Mario. Mario is Missing is just one of those games.


No, he's getting the credit he deserves. He's literally the face of the franchise.

Saying he's the only memorable character would be unfair, but he is still a major gaming icon. Being a gaming icon isn't about personality anyway. It's about recognition. Which Steve has in spades. Right up there with the biggest and most notable.

Riddle me this, then: If personality and backstory aren't what makes Steve a "gaming icon", what is? If your answer is anything other than "he's from Minecraft", you failed the riddle.

Minecraft is huge. Like, stupidly big. It has been for 10 whole years. So of course, anything that is tied to it will be popular by association. Steve isn't iconic because of any of his own merits as a character, he's iconic because he's from one of the most popular videogames of all time. Who needs a personality or an attitude when you can just ride on the popularity of your game alone? Minecraft is popular, and as such, so is Steve, Creeper, the Pigs, Endermen, etc.

Seriously, think of any other "gaming icon" that begun as nothing but blank slates and see how they've developed over the years. Mario got an extended cast of characters and an established personality. Donkey Kong and Wario went from being simple antagonist to the stars of their own franchises. Link was just an avatar, until later games gave him multiple backstories, a purpose in the lore, a personality even. Even Pac-Man, who was nothing but a yellow circle that ate ghosts, eventually got a family. Any other gaming icon had an established character from the onset, like Sonic, Crash and the like. They're all popular now due to their own merits.

Steve is literally only recognizable because of his association with Minecraft. He may be the player character and the avatar... but that's the extent of his character. Whatever there is of him, anyway.

 

[Roberto zampari]

I know who must be the next DLC fighter in Smash Bros Ultimate:

JASON FRUDNICK (BLASTER MASTER)

Renember the NES game Blaster Master and Inti Creates' remaked game Blaster Master Zero?
The Duck Hunt came from an old game, why not Blaster Master?

Could this be possible?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Riddle me this, then: If personality and backstory aren't what makes Steve a "gaming icon", what is? If your answer is anything other than "he's from Minecraft", you failed the riddle.

Recognition. That's really what makes someone a gaming icon. They know who the character is. Personality and backstory are a bonus. People recognize MegaMan for who he is. Not just from the game, but the iconic design. Even when they change it, it's still MegaMan. Some didn't even know X was a different person, and it's still the main design. People know the Live-Action versions of Mario because of their designs easily. They don't need a name or voice. Those just makes him more lovable.

Minecraft is huge. Like, stupidly big. It has been for 10 whole years. So of course, anything that is tied to it will be popular by association. Steve isn't iconic because of any of his own merits as a character, he's iconic because he's from one of the most popular videogames of all time. Who needs a personality or an attitude when you can just ride on the popularity of your game alone? Minecraft is popular, and as such, so is Steve, Creeper, the Pigs, Endermen, etc.

And he's the most recognizable character in the game. That's the point. He's everywhere. That's what makes him an icon. It being popular is a small part of it. But they chose to spread his image too. And it sells. By image alone. People know who Minecraft is due to is huge legacy. People know who Steve is because he's the main character of the series. Fact of the matter is, your usual main character is pretty much just a model or skin effectively. They still stick out because they're the main character. You don't need personality to stick out. You being the player character is enough. Pac-Man sure didn't stick out cause of personality. He stood out because of a clear and recognizable design. Just like Steve.

Seriously, think of any other "gaming icon" that begun as nothing but blank slates and see how they've developed over the years. Mario got an extended cast of characters and an established personality. Donkey Kong and Wario went from being simple antagonist to the stars of their own franchises. Link was just an avatar, until later games gave him multiple backstories, a purpose in the lore, a personality even. Even Pac-Man, who was nothing but a yellow circle that ate ghosts, eventually got a family. Any other gaming icon had an established character from the onset, like Sonic, Crash and the like. They're all popular now due to their own merits.

All that tells me is that some have done a better job at adding more characterization. It is not the core reason a character is iconic. They were iconic well before things like backstory and personalities. Every single example you gave are characters who are recognizable by design alone. DK also has more personality than Mario ever had in his first proper DKC game. He had more personality in his giant form in the arcade games too, but only by a little. He was tried to presented as an angry person, being based off of a Popeye character, of course. Mario got a slight bit via powerups, including the Mushroom(which actually fits the idea of how Popeye getting stronger by having Spinach). But there was no personality really shown when growing anyway. The first time power-ups actually established some form of personality was the Super Mario Bros. Show and other comic/etc. types of spin-offs, where they were actually treated as an important piece to the story. The Mario platformers didn't treat it as more than a quick gameplay mechanic to make the game more diverse. Even the Zelda games established a little with the item pick-up animation. It just was "quick transformation" at best for a while.

Steve is literally only recognizable because of his association with Minecraft. He may be the player character and the avatar... but that's the extent of his character. Whatever there is of him, anyway.

And that's all you need to be an icon in itself. Recognition. What, you think Mario was a gaming icon right away due to some personality thing? No. He was the main character of a recognizable series. He evolved as a character as is. And that didn't change how iconic he was. It changed why people liked him. Being a Gaming Icon isn't about popularity, it's about who knows the character. It doesn't really matter if they're a vibrant character or not. Ryu, for instance, is a very flat character who is fairly boring within his series. He's still vastly recognizable, as is his moveset. People know it. It's sometimes as simple as what they do. Like Scorpion's Spear is the most iconic part of him, but people recognize him by picture alone.

If people aren't recognizing characters by a picture alone, they aren't all that known.

 

[BlueMonk]

Riddle me this, then: If personality and backstory aren't what makes Steve a "gaming icon", what is? If your answer is anything other than "he's from Minecraft", you failed the riddle.

Minecraft is huge. Like, stupidly big. It has been for 10 whole years. So of course, anything that is tied to it will be popular by association. Steve isn't iconic because of any of his own merits as a character, he's iconic because he's from one of the most popular videogames of all time. Who needs a personality or an attitude when you can just ride on the popularity of your game alone? Minecraft is popular, and as such, so is Steve, Creeper, the Pigs, Endermen, etc.

Seriously, think of any other "gaming icon" that begun as nothing but blank slates and see how they've developed over the years. Mario got an extended cast of characters and an established personality. Donkey Kong and Wario went from being simple antagonist to the stars of their own franchises. Link was just an avatar, until later games gave him multiple backstories, a purpose in the lore, a personality even. Even Pac-Man, who was nothing but a yellow circle that ate ghosts, eventually got a family. Any other gaming icon had an established character from the onset, like Sonic, Crash and the like. They're all popular now due to their own merits.

Steve is literally only recognizable because of his association with Minecraft. He may be the player character and the avatar... but that's the extent of his character. Whatever there is of him, anyway.

But how is any of that an issue? Nobody seriously thinks Steve has a personality, but he's still recognizable and an icon. That's enough to get into Smash, and that's enough for people to want to play as him. It's true that he's only recognizable because he's in Minecraft, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that he is recognizable. If you look in my signature, you'll see that I want Chrono, Quote, and a hunter in smash. These characters all have sizable fanbases who want to see them playable, despite the fact that all three of them are blank slate characters with no personality. The fact of the matter is, very few people will actually care about the personality of a character in smash.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I know who must be the next DLC fighter in Smash Bros Ultimate:

JASON FRUDNICK (BLASTER MASTER)

View attachment 225515

Renember the NES game Blaster Master and Inti Creates' remaked game Blaster Master Zero?
The Duck Hunt came from an old game, why not Blaster Master?

Could this be possible?

I would love this tbh. I have no idea how they’d incorporate Sophia III to his moveset (because let’s face it, Sophia III is the bigger draw to the series). But alas, the BMZ version is HUGE, the NES version could be the way to go since it looks proportionally smaller.

Still, the many types of guns that Jason uses could translate pretty well to smash imo.

 

[Roberto zampari]

I would love this tbh. I have no idea how they’d incorporate Sophia III to his moveset (because let’s face it, Sophia III is the bigger draw to the series). But alas, the BMZ version is HUGE, the NES version could be the way to go since it looks proportionally smaller.

Still, the many types of guns that Jason uses could translate pretty well to smash imo.

Sophia III can be Jason's Final Smash, like the Fox's Landmaster.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Even if not playable, I'd love Blaster Master content in. I forget, what company owns the character and franchise again?

 

[Nquoid]

The biggest movie of all time Avatar. People would be more excited to see Star Wars or Marvel characters added to a franchise than they would Jake Sully. Being big and having recognisable iconography doesn't mean you have to be a playable character.

Minecraft is a franchise where the iconography isn't just Steve. It's Creepers and crafting and a sense of community. I think we all know that the L-Block from Tetris won't be announced this week, but none of us would be surprised if a Tetris AT was..

Minecraft is made in a way to minimise the time you have to look at the playable character. You can argue that other characters in the Smash are blank slates. But they are also on screen for almost all of gameplay. Minecraft came out in May 2009 and comparing that to Mario or any other NES game is ignoring the progress that gaming animation and design has made over the course of 30 years. Mario's animations in Super Mario 64 are better and more expressive than Steve in Minecraft. There is 13 years difference between those releases. Punch-Out! on the Wii also came out in 2009. Little Mac's back is facing you for the entirety of gameplay, and yet has more charisma and personality than Steve in spades.

Steve is iconic. Steve doesn't have a personality in a way that any other character in Smash had, barring Captain Falcon, when they were added to the game. And even then, I doubt Sakurai and the team have the time to give Steve the attention to detail he would need to feel like a part of Smash. The animations on Game & Watch are terrific, but they wouldn't have the time to replicate that attention to detail, and I wouldn't want them to half arse something as huge as Minecraft.

 

[Garteam]

Here's a thought I had.

One of the main concerns of Erdrick has been the amount of music that would accompany his pack. Either due to the fact that Final Fantasy is starved or Sugiyama being famously overprotective of his tracks, there is a (someway reasonable) fear that a Dragon Quest pack would be a significant step down in the music department. If Erdrick's pack was lacking in terms of musical content, could we possibly see another piece of content to help make up for the difference?

Namely, I was thinking that we could see Erdrick coming with a possible echo. Basically every Dragon Quest game has a "hero" character that share quite a few qualities. They're all tall, thin young adults who utilize a variety of magic and weapons with an emphasis on all-around gameplay, while specializing in Swords, Shields, and Thunder magic. As such, two of these heroes could very easily share a moveset.

If we do see an Erdrick echo, I think there's two main options: Eight and the Luminary. Eight is the protagonist of Dragon Quest... VIII, arguably the most popular Dragon Quest game internationally. It's the second best selling Dragon Quest game in North America (and the first best selling was bundled with Nintendo Power subscriptions, so that number may be a bit inflated) and it was the first Dragon Quest game to see release in Europe. Likewise, its one of the most fondly remembered Dragon Quests, especially outside of Japan. As such, Erdrick and Eight could create a dynamic similar to Simon and Richter; with one being chosen to appeal to the West and the other chosen to appeal to the East.

On the other hand, Luminary is the protagonist of Dragon Quest XI, the newest Dragon Quest game. As anyone who has seen the recent Nintendo Direct knows, Dragon Quest XI is coming to Switch later this year. Nintendo seems to be very invested in getting this entry off the ground, given it's large marketing push and the addition of new content to address common flaws in the original PS4 release (namely, changing the international soundtrack from midi to a live orchestra). This could make the Luminary's inclusion a great means of promoting a major, upcoming release with minimal hassle. Luminary's inclusion would also allow both Classic and Modern fans to pick up a character from their era with the series!

Thoughts?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You don't need personality to be added into Smash. A better example is Villager, who has no official personality. Just a few dances, but nothing really established. Mario eventually got a heroic and determined one. Villager didn't have even that much when added.

Steve is very easy to throw in. It doesn't take much to add taunts. It could be showing off a monster. It could be as simple as posing with a tool. There's always options. Really, sometimes the most difficult things for taunts is making sure an animation exists, or that it fits within the character. Steve is blank enough where the options are near limitless.

Characters stand out in Smash too. There's more than enough time to give basic animations. Steve, at worst, for any changes, might use his cover art which has a less gritty feel. That's kind of it. The animations can be very simplistic ala Mr. Game & Watch or Wario's janky movement. That's how he's designed to be. It still works easily within the series. There'd be far more issues with item creation as a mechanic via balancing than there are with fairly easy animations.

 

[Roberto zampari]

Even if not playable, I'd love Blaster Master content in. I forget, what company owns the character and franchise again?

Blaster Master from NES was made by Sunsoft while Blaster Master Zero was made by Inti Creates.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Blaster Master from NES was made by Sunsoft while Blaster Master Zero was made by Inti Creates.

Interesting. Are they the owners of the IP, though? I don't mean the developer, but the main copyright.

 

[Nquoid]

But Villager has a personality. From the animations when you find an item, to being chased by bees. It's not huge, but it goes a long way to making them feel like something rather than something you as a player impose yourself over. The simple action of having a character portray an emotion that you might not be feeling makes it different to a character who doesn't have any ability to showcase emotions.

Plus, intentionally janky or different animations are almost certainly harder to do than clean smooth animations. Look at this video breaking down Mr. Game & Watch's animation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX7jgSQb27Y

There would be no template or character to borrow animations from when it comes to Steve. And if all these DLC characters have about 2 months of intense focus on their development and animations, I don't think that's enough time to properly do justice to the way Steve moves. Just look at how many of Joker's move animations were borrowed from other characters, just so that they could focus on making the other animations true to Persona 5.

 

[BlueMonk]

But Villager has a personality. From the animations when you find an item, to being chased by bees. It's not huge, but it goes a long way to making them feel like something rather than something you as a player impose yourself over. The simple action of having a character portray an emotion that you might not be feeling makes it different to a character who doesn't have any ability to showcase emotions.

Plus, intentionally janky or different animations are almost certainly harder to do than clean smooth animations. Look at this video breaking down Mr. Game & Watch's animation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX7jgSQb27Y

There would be no template or character to borrow animations from when it comes to Steve. And if all these DLC characters have about 2 months of intense focus on their development and animations, I don't think that's enough time to properly do justice to the way Steve moves. Just look at how many of Joker's move animations were borrowed from other characters, just so that they could focus on making the other animations true to Persona 5.

Steve doesn't really have janky movements, if anything his animations are unnaturally smooth

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, animations that every version of Villager does. ...Like a skin. Because you can have 50 million unique versions of Villager as is. With different clothing, different players behind them, etc. It's literally no different from the skin argument. There's nothing special about it. It's not a real personality that a specific character has. It's more like a Class having animations. It doesn't establish Villager as a specific character. There's literally 4 characters "named" Villager per game. It's not an established specific personality. It's just basically an animation every member of the class will have. It's nothing to write home about. It didn't make Villager some special unique character either. He is just a blank-slate avatar with basic animations to make the gameplay work. It doesn't set any Villager apart from another. This isn't like Link who actually has vastly different animations either. He's not a Class, but an established person(unlike Villager, though some avatars like Robin are properly established characters) with different personalities depending the game.

The Villagers are interchangeable no matter what game you have. The only villagers to be unique are the animal ones. They're closer to actual people, not a class to play as. Smash adds Classes too(look at Pokemon Trainer for an exact class option).

Doesn't change that Villager is doing nothing different from how Steve is. Only difference is Steve is established as a more specific character than Villager is. They're tangible differences, but one is treated more as a character on merchandise, while the other is a name of a Class you play as. It's common for Avatar characters to be treated as classes, though. A better example of what Villager is is akin to Fighter in FF1. It's not a character specifically. It's just a class. Anybody could be that person if they want. They don't have a specially set name. It got to the point where even the FF crossover didn't use the class and made a unique character to combine all the classes into an actual person(to some degree) called Onion Knight.

 

[Captain Shades]

Or maybe there's another highly-requested character Sakurai and Nintendo would prioritize as DLC given the boom of N64-era nostalgia?

Sorry to chime in but where is the N64 era nostalgia? This entire decade has been full of 80s arcade and NES era nostalgia, but N64 seems like a stretch. Outside of Crash and Spyro’s return (both of which were still alive through titles and Skylanders by the way) I don’t see where this idea of a big boom is coming from. From what I’ve seen, most big Nintendo channels have claimed the N64 as the lacking console in comparison to the other home systems Nintendo has produced and that GameCube and sometimes Wii are the best era. Even the big Switch releases are pretty big on going back to the NES with BOTW just being the 3D version of the original Zelda and Odessey marketing highlighting references to Donkey Kong (New Donk City) and Super Mario Bros. (8-bit Mario).

Let’s claim for a second though that this era really is coming back, then wouldn’t it make more sense to go after Crash and Spyro as they are headlining the return? Plus we already have Snake and Cloud whic( were the two biggest icons of the N64 era as their games changed the landscape.



To comment on the Steve personality issue, is it one? He’s recognizable and a character many have grown attached to. If he wasn’t then why would kids be dressing up as the character? Everyone talks about how apparently most other blank slate characters are different but are they really.

Here I want use a separate example than the Mario one used, how about two characters that meet everything people say about Steve yet are seen as gaming icons. So, what about Valve’s characters? I think many will agree that they are big gaming icons even though characters like Chell and Gordon Freeman are both silent protagonists that you don’t see due to the first person perspective. Both were made with little to no backstory or character with Gordon boiling down to scientist and Chell maybe having a history of her parents killed otherwise she’s test subject. There is absolutely no reason to like them outside of their games, yet people hold these two in the highest regards as some of gaming’s best.

I think Steve is iconic due to being the nothing character he is. He sort of is the ultimate player character, the Link or Gordon of Minecraft. These characters are iconic as they act the way the player wants them to. They are the player or the type of character the player wants. In a way, Chell or Steve’s personality is easy to imagine for most as it’s the personality they give them, which makes them more personal to the player. Most believe Gordon to be a bad *** , but it’s never stated or even remotely hinted at. In a way the players build a persona and make the character.

In a way Steve has multiple personalities that people have grasped onto the character for. Some see him as a scared man all alone in a world full of monesters, some see him as over confident and a man that can handle any situation, and some see him as a person who is easily annoyed by everything around him. Steve is iconic for his nothingness, which has allowed people to pretty much create their own adaptations, each building multiple audiences. Steve is iconic as Steve is just like Minecraft, a tool for endless possibilities, possibly the most fitting character I’ve ever seen.

I’ll just leave this here to show more of Steve being recognized and big with audiences

 

[Knight Dude]

Huh, now that I think of it, the Blaster Master dude could be a cool choice. Though if we're getting another NES icon, I'd rather get Ryu Hayabusa first. But either would be fine I think. If they do add Jason, he better keep his cool ass helmet on from the Inti-Creates game.

 

[Roberto zampari]

Huh, now that I think of it, the Blaster Master dude could be a cool choice. Though if we're getting another NES icon, I'd rather get Ryu Hayabusa first. But either would be fine I think. If they do add Jason, he better keep his cool *** helmet on from the Inti-Creates game.

Ryu Hayabusa from the NES games or from this sinister design:

This design above give MORTAL KOMBAT vibes.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Steve is only recognizable because of his game's distinctive art style. You put his design in another style and it's literally a guy in a cyan t-shirt. This isn't a knock on him, but it makes me lean more into generic avatar status. Look at Creepers or Endermen, those are distinctive designs.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Steve is only recognizable because of his game's distinctive art style. You put his design in another style and it's literally a guy in a cyan t-shirt. This isn't a knock on him, but it makes me lean more into generic avatar status. Look at Creepers or Endermen, those are distinctive designs.

And that's fine. Being a generic avatar is a-okay. Cause that's enough to get into Smash as is. As long as they are highly recognizable, they'd be profitable as DLC, in this particular context. Many characters would be. Banjo too, respectively(Steve probably would be more profitable, but they'd still be amazing sellers due to immense fan demand and iconic factor. I do believe Banjo has more fan demand than Steve, but we have no way to prove that as the official ballot does not exist to us. I think Steve having some obvious votes on the ballot coupled with how big he is could be a reason to choose him over some less iconic options. There could be other factors like business deals, of course).

It's also completely understandable why people prefer those with more established personalities. Miis are very decisive as a Smash character because of this alone. Especially since some prefer they were based upon a specific sports moveset instead of being as blank slate as possible. They're more blank-slate than in the games themselves. On the other hand, they fit their in-game roles, where they are made playable based upon the game's settings. As Avatars, they do that specifically in Smash, being a "create your own avatar" thing. Though realistically, they didn't need a Create-A-Character moveset to work as long as you could choose any design and costumes. But I can also see why the CAC works better with any potential costume. The archtypes fit more costumes in a way that tries to accurately depict different fighting styles, which was clearly part of the reason why.

 

[Knight Dude]

If I'm finna chime in, I don't think N64 Nostalgia is quite in full swing. NES and SNES era nostalgia is still much stronger honestly. Looking at the past 10 years, we've got MM9, MM10, Blaster Master Zero, Gunvolt, Sonic Mania, Shovel Knight, the Messenger, the Ducktales remake and so on that shows people appreciate that aesthetic and gameplay style. Axiom Verge, The Binding of Isaac, Bloodstained ect ect. While N64 only really had Yooka Laylee and A Hat in Time to re-create stuff of that era.

Now, if we're going to assume Nostalgia IS a big deal, and that Minecraft ISN'T the MS character that we think will happen which we don't have a ton of proof on. There's no guarantee it's Banjo.

What Banjo-Kazooie do have in their favor is popularity with the Nintendo fanbase, at least if online is some indication of that. But Minecraft's one of biggest games of all times in terms of sales, granted, Avatar is that for movies, but more people know Godzilla or Indiana Jones for example.

Back to Nostalgia, if there's N64 Nostalgia, there's also Fulgore, who, unlike Banjo also had a recent game. But does that make Fulgore more likely? Probably not. But he's my personal pick.

If Nostalgia's playing a factor, there's also Battletoads to consider. An old ass NES game, with multiple entries, kind of put Rare on the map. Rash has shown up in multiple newer games from KI3, and Shovel Knight. The dude has a moveset that almost writes itself. And a new game coming out soon.

Not that any of that matters too much, but I think people are forgetting there's more to MS's IPs than Banjo and Minecraft.

Ryu Hayabusa from the NES games or from this sinister design:

View attachment 225524

This design above give me MORTAL KOMBAT vibes.

It's not that MK-ish, MK ninjas dress a little bulkier, but I get what you're saying, it's grittier. Either would be fine with me. Though I feel Sakurai would pick the OG design if he only gets one costume. In many DOA games Hayabusa gets a rendition of his NES suit anyway, so we've seen it in 3D before.

I think ideally, he'd have the two costumes much like Cloud and Bayonetta do.

 

[Roberto zampari]

IF GUNVOLT (FROM AZURE STRIKER GUNVOLT) WILL BE INCLUDED IN SMASH BROS, THE ECHO FIGHTER MUST BE THIS:

Spoiler: Watch Gunvolt Chronicles: Luminous Avenger IX trailer

 

[Captain Shades]

The biggest movie of all time Avatar. People would be more excited to see Star Wars or Marvel characters added to a franchise than they would Jake Sully. Being big and having recognisable iconography doesn't mean you have to be a playable character.

Sorry I forgot to touch on this point...

You are correct in Avatar, but to counter this point, I think time should also be a factor. Avatar came and went in pretty much the span of a year. It was hyped up, but didn’t have any lasting power, so even though it was the highest selling movie of all time, it is justifiable to pick Marvel or Star Wars over it. As for Minecraft, it has been around for 10 years...and it still ranks in an average player base within the millions. Minecraft has proven to be able to keep up the momentum and become a classic in gaming history. For a while Fortnite was projected to be bigger than MC, but it’s bubble bursted. So far in the 10 years of MC, the bubble has yet to burst in any drastic way which is why I believe Avatar to be a bit of a bad comparison.

 

[BlueMonk]

Something I wanted to bring up amongst all this Steve discussion is that being in a popular game doesn't necessarily make a character popular. Take, for example, GTA V. GTA V is the third best selling video game, behind Tetris and Minecraft. Yet, most people who haven't played GTA V would not be able to name or recognize the main character. I think it's fair to say that most people can at least identify Steve as the player character in Minecraft even if they have not played it. I think that speaks to the recognizability of Steve's character design on it's own.

 

[Knight Dude]

Something I wanted to bring up amongst all this Steve discussion is that being in a popular game doesn't necessarily make a character popular. Take, for example, GTA V. GTA V is the third best selling video game, behind Tetris and Minecraft. Yet, most people who haven't played GTA V would not be able to name or recognize the main character. I think it's fair to say that most people can at least identify Steve as the player character in Minecraft even if they have not played it. I think that speaks to the recognizability of Steve's character design on it's own.

GTAV has 3 main leads as opposed to one. I guess Steve's more well known, I wouldn't doubt that. But I still know who Franklin and Trevor are at least.

But we all know CJ would be the better GTA character anyway.

 

[BlueMonk]

GTAV has 3 main leads as opposed to one. I guess Steve's more well known, I wouldn't doubt that. But I still know who Franklin and Trevor are at least.

But we all know CJ would be the better GTA character anyway.

True, maybe I'm just projecting my own ignorance of GTA's characters lol. Idk, I don't even really like Steve but I'm annoyed that most of the points used against him are only used against him in particular despite usually being contradicted by characters already in the game.

 

[Knight Dude]

True, maybe I'm just projecting my own ignorance of GTA's characters lol. Idk, I don't even really like Steve but I'm annoyed that most of the points used against him are only used against him in particular despite usually being contradicted by characters already in the game.

Understandable.

For me, I think people just gotta understand there's more than the 2 options for Microsoft getting a character. I didn't mention Master Chief yet. Who would fight off the complaints of irrelevancy and lack of popularity Steve people have with Banjo and the complaints of Steve being ugly and lacking a character that the Banjo people have. Then it could go back to simply preferring one over the other.

I sure as hell don't like Steve, but I get why, from a finanical standpoint Nintendo would want him in, and Minecraft's already got content on Nintendo systems. Banjo I have no nostalgia for, since I grew up with that ***** Spyro. But I get the appeal of him and I wouldn't be opposed to it at all.

Fulgore's ****ing sick and is a better choice. Especially in the music department.

And that's IF we get a Microsoft character, chances are we ain't getting **** from them.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

GTAV has 3 main leads as opposed to one. I guess Steve's more well known, I wouldn't doubt that. But I still know who Franklin and Trevor are at least.

But we all know CJ would be the better GTA character anyway.

That's an odd way to spell Big Smoke

If I'm finna chime in, I don't think N64 Nostalgia is quite in full swing. NES and SNES era nostalgia is still much stronger honestly. Looking at the past 10 years, we've got MM9, MM10, Blaster Master Zero, Gunvolt, Sonic Mania, Shovel Knight, the Messenger, the Ducktales remake and so on that shows people appreciate that aesthetic and gameplay style. Axiom Verge, The Binding of Isaac, Bloodstained ect ect. While N64 only really had Yooka Laylee and A Hat in Time to re-create stuff of that era.

Now, if we're going to assume Nostalgia IS a big deal, and that Minecraft ISN'T the MS character that we think will happen which we don't have a ton of proof on. There's no guarantee it's Banjo.

What Banjo-Kazooie do have in their favor is popularity with the Nintendo fanbase, at least if online is some indication of that. But Minecraft's one of biggest games of all times in terms of sales, granted, Avatar is that for movies, but more people know Godzilla or Indiana Jones for example.

Back to Nostalgia, if there's N64 Nostalgia, there's also Fulgore, who, unlike Banjo also had a recent game. But does that make Fulgore more likely? Probably not. But he's my personal pick.

If Nostalgia's playing a factor, there's also Battletoads to consider. An old *** NES game, with multiple entries, kind of put Rare on the map. Rash has shown up in multiple newer games from KI3, and Shovel Knight. The dude has a moveset that almost writes itself. And a new game coming out soon.

Not that any of that matters too much, but I think people are forgetting there's more to MS's IPs than Banjo and Minecraft.



It's not that MK-ish, MK ninjas dress a little bulkier, but I get what you're saying, it's grittier. Either would be fine with me. Though I feel Sakurai would pick the OG design if he only gets one costume. In many DOA games Hayabusa gets a rendition of his NES suit anyway, so we've seen it in 3D before.

I think ideally, he'd have the two costumes much like Cloud and Bayonetta do.

While it's unlikely, it would be hilarious if Fulgore was the Microsoft pick after so much Banjo-Kazooie and Steve discussion. He'd be my personal pick too, but I forget about him in terms of smash since he feels like such a longshot. Man I really wish we got Killer Instinct content just for the music, I love both the classic 90's dance and the modern stuff by Mick Gordon.