Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[CodakTheWarrior]

The thing is none of those franchises have no where near as many characters and games to pick, which from Fire Emblem spans almost 20 games with roughly around 500 to 600 named characters.

I’ll def give you that FE has a load of characters to choose from, my main issue is a very specific one; it feels like Sakurai is treating FE as a bigger series than Zelda. I mean, Zelda hasn’t had a TRULY unique character since Zelda herself all the way back in melee, despite having soooo many unique options since then. Meanwhile, the second a popular Fire Emblem comes out, you can bet your buck the main character will be added. I’m not saying they aren’t unique, but Fire Emblem characters essentially get a free pass into the game to a degree, meanwhile TLoZ is sitting with three Links, two Zeldas, and a weird Ganon/falcon fusion

 

[Nemuresu]

Fire Emblem causes controversy every couple years in smash and than the next game manages to make a couple millions more than the last

Then what should we say about it's eye-glaring absence from 2019's best-selling Switch games? The fact that it couldn't outsell Link's Awakening (which has only sold 3 million as of september 2019) isn't positive for the series at all.

 

[GoodGrief741]

View attachment 258583
It seems interesting that the first fighter's pass is mostly of niche characters. Banjo is debatable but the rest are pretty niche characters. Maybe there's a sort of trend going on.

I wouldn't call any of those characters niche. Persona 5 sold like 3 million copies, Dragon Quest is huge, SNK is pretty big as fighting games go (though to be fair fighting games are a pretty secluded community) and Three Houses also sold like 2 mil.

 

[Knight Dude]

Fire Emblem causes controversy every couple years in smash and than the next game manages to make a couple millions more than the last

Smash's fanbase only takes up but so much of the FE fanbase and vice versa.

View attachment 258583
It seems interesting that the first fighter's pass is mostly of niche characters. Banjo is debatable but the rest are pretty niche characters. Maybe there's a sort of trend going on.

I would argue Banjo's far more niche than Hero and Terry.

 

[NintenZ]

If you want to argue about which one deserves to be in more, sure.

But Granblue is cygames's darling baby and flagship game, so if they were going to get a cygames character, it's probably gonna be from that, especially considering how much granblue eclipses dragalia in terms of being marketed, its sales, its crossovers, and its spinoffs. I would think picking Dragalia over Granblue would be like picking TMS over P5.

TMS is a Fire Emblem spin-off and also was a commercial flop when it first came out, that's a terrible comparison when Dragalia Lost has actually been pretty successful and is an original IP.

I just really don't see where the lines connect with a random mobile game and Smash Bros, it only seems like it would benefit CyGames more then it would Nintendo, and in that case why not have something that benefits them both?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Likewise, Ike differs in gameplay in that he doesn't get many of the advantages that a traditional lord does (getting a mount, or gaining an additional weapon)

Did he not wield axes? I was under the impression that he did for some reason...

I keep saying that every time people whine about Fire Emblem, Sakurai feels more compelled to add another one. Though my sacrificial ritual probably helped add Byleth

Perhaps that's why everyone hates Byleth; you killed all their pets to get them.

I'll allow it for now but if my doggo ends up mysteriously dead I'm going to be very cross with you.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

I'm sorry, but that's not even remotely true.

Most Fire Emblem lords are nobles with a fighting style based around traditional European swordplay (with a high emphasis on fencing) because they were taught by knights either in a traditional military academy or some sort of royal court. As such, their swordplay mostly focuses on fluidity and by-the-books technique. This reflects into their gameplay: lords often have strong skill and speed, but often struggle with strength and defence. To compensate for this, they will often have abilities that other characters don't (such as access to the convoy) and will gain some new toys upon promotion (such as upgrading to a mount and receiving lances).

By contrast, Ike is a mercenary who was taught by his non-noble father in a custom type of swordplay based around brute strength and remaining unpredictable. Ike's swordplay looks more like he's using an axe than a sword. Likewise, Ike differs in gameplay in that he doesn't get many of the advantages that a traditional lord does (getting a mount, or gaining an additional weapon), but he has much higher stats (both in growths and caps) than a standard lord. He plays a lot closer to a mercenary than a lord, which is why Radiant Dawn changed his class from Lord to Hero.

You couldn't make Ike a Marth clone because it doesn't fit his character. It'd be extremely strange to see Ike using a Marth's refined, very vanilla fighting style.

For people like him they see all the FE characters this way.

Fire Marth
Buff Marth
Magic Marth
Girl Marth
Dragon Marth
Dad Marth

And I guess Byleth would be axe/lance/bow Marth.

 

[Krankees]

Bruh Banjo is easily one of, if not the most niche choices here, especially when you hold DQ3's launch into account

Smash's fanbase only takes up but so much of the FE fanbase and vice versa.



I would argue Banjo's far more niche than Hero and Terry.

I didn't want to offend Banjo fans by calling him niche if he wasn't.

 

[GoodGrief741]

The key difference between Fire Emblem/Pokemon and Zelda or Mario is that the main cast of characters is what changes in Fire Emblem and Pokemon. In Zelda and Mario games, the main protagonist and major players are typically the same.

Now, does that mean that side characters like the Champions would be poor choices? No. I actually thought we might get a Champion in base game. However, as I said earlier, DLC picks have almost always been the main protagonist of the games they come from. Zelda can't really fit that, and neither can Mario.

Not saying it's a good or bad thing that they pass over Zelda or Mario. Just pointing this out is all.

Why does it matter that the main cast stays the same but everything else changes? You don't need to have just the main cast from a franchise, especially not one with side characters as iconic as Zelda and Mario.

Plus the whole revolving cast thing kinda dies imo when Xenoblade gave us two new worlds with two new casts and got nothing.

 

[Garteam]

Fire Emblem causes controversy every couple years in smash and than the next game manages to make a couple millions more than the last

Intelligent Systems are masters of the Streisand effect.

 

[[Maple]]

But I think you are looking the problem with the wrong view imo. I'm almost sure people would accept FE characters more if more first party franchises receive more love.

In term of fighters where are Golden Sun and Rythm Heaven? Why is Dixie Kong still not in the game despise being one of the main character of the Donkey Kong Country? Same goes for Bandana Dee (more than 10 years whitout a new kirby rep). Xenoblade Chronciles could takes an other fighter without a doubt (Rex, Elma or Team Lora). Why not adding Poochy for the Yoshi serie? An other Wario Ware rep? Sure bring one. For oldies an Excitebike or Machrider fighter both have potentiel. And Zelda OH SWEET ZELDA. Why not Ganon, Impa, wolf link with Midona or even Tingle.


Of course some people always like to complain, but it's totally fine to be disapointed. It's just not fine to be rude. Plus we just have to live with this. Maybe Byleth will become your main? I'm excited to try it mostly because it reminds me of a potentiel Monster Hunter moveset.

 

[Wunderwaft]

TMS is a Fire Emblem spin-off and also was a commercial flop when it first came out, that's a terrible comparison when Dragalia Lost has actually been pretty successful and is an original IP.

Didn't Dragalia Lost underperform quite badly compared to Granblue?

 

[Gentlepanda]

hmm, today i will spend my day getting ****-rendingly furious over a character who is already irreversibly in the game and will be there forever no matter how furious i get

 

[Knight Dude]

I didn't want to offend Banjo fans by calling him niche if he wasn't.

Banjo Kazooie had like 5 games. Meanwhile Terry's own series, Fatal Fury has at least 8 entries. And he's a staple of KOF, which has at least 14 titles not counting spin-offs.

Nothing wrong with Banjo Kazooie though. I like them enough.

 

[Garteam]

Did he not wield axes? I was under the impression that he did for some reason...

Ike can wield axes after he promotes in Radiant Dawn.

I really wish he could do so in Path of Radiance as well though. Being swordlocked in a game where the later maps are extremely lance heavy isn't fun.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I didn't want to offend Banjo fans by calling him niche if he wasn't.

Banjo fans have been offended because I said he has a gimmick and "Oh wow, Hero's Japanese trailer has the most views out of any existing Smash trailer!" So I guess I get it but at the same time, the franchise has been dead for well over a decade

Did he not wield axes? I was under the impression that he did for some reason...


Perhaps that's why everyone hates Byleth; you killed all their pets to get them.

I'll allow it for now but if my doggo ends up mysteriously dead I'm going to be very cross with you.

Oh I didn't kill their pets, I just got hella sick and vomited blood an hour before the reveal

 

[Rie Sonomura]

But I think you are looking the problem with the wrong view imo. I'm almost sure people would accept FE characters more if more first party franchises receive more love.

In term of fighters where are Golden Sun and Rythm Heaven? Why is Dixie Kong still not in the game despise being one of the main character of the Donkey Kong Country? Same goes for Bandana Dee (more than 10 years whitout a new kirby rep). Xenoblade Chronciles could takes an other fighter without a doubt (Rex, Elma or Team Lora). Why not adding Poochy for the Yoshi serie? An other Wario Ware rep? Sure bring one. For oldies an Excitebike or Machrider fighter both have potentiel. And Zelda OH SWEET ZELDA. Why not Ganon, Impa, wolf link with Midona or even Tingle.


Of course some people always like to complain, but it's totally fine to be disapointed. It's just not fine to be rude.

cries in F-Zero (Black Shadow) and Splatoon (Octoling; i mean come on Splatoon 2 was a HUGE HIT)

 

[Schnee117]

Did he not wield axes? I was under the impression that he did for some reason...

He can use them but he's more known for using swords

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Then what should we say about it's eye-glaring absence from 2019's best-selling Switch games? The fact that it couldn't outsell Link's Awakening (which has only sold 3 million as of september 2019) isn't positive for the series at all.

3 Houses already beat Fates which was the highest previously pretty fast

The series is getting bigger with each entry

 

[GoodGrief741]

3 Houses already beat Fates which was the highest previously pretty fast

The series is getting bigger with each entry

Wait, already? Damn that's insane, and Fates had like three separate versions too.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

I know, right? It's baffling to me that Nintendo still treats FE like their small underdog series when it's honestly a pretty massive success when looking at the trajectory and genre. You'd think they'd want to promote their other franchises, but nope.

I don't think Nintendo has been treating like an underdog, they've called a major IP since 2016 after the success of Awakening and Fates.
https://mynintendonews.com/2016/04/28/fire-emblem-is-now-considered-a-major-ip-for-nintendo/
One of the last major Wii U games was an Fire Emblem spin off which just had a Switch port released yesterday.
Another spin off was released for the Switch in the first year of the console's life.
Three Houses was one of the first, first party's to be confirmed to be in development for the Switch.
When they announced the Feb 2019 direct, they flat out said there would be new info on Three Houses.
Fire Emblem Heroes makes more money then all of their mobile games by a wide margin.
I don't think Nintendo sees it as an underdog, I think they see it as one of their most important franchises due to its success last decade.'

EDIT oh yeah forgot to mention there have even been rumors for the last couple of years of a possible Anime adaption of possibly Awakening.
https://www.destructoid.com/fire-emblem-anime-hits-the-rumor-mill-457769.phtml

 

[SvartWolf]

If people start legit claiming that Fire Emblem is more prominent of a series than Zelda now just because of smash or whatever I will be very confused, the main reason people have this huge hissyfit over reps is because Fe has factually sold less than many other series that have been around for longer, thus meaning that more people are exposed to them. It’s not an issue of whether or not they ‘fit’, as I think all 8 Fe characters have a deserved place in there own way, it’s just that said characters form Fe are repeatedly prioritized over say, a character from BotW, which sold more and has just as much potential for unique characters as three houses while also resulting in MUCH less backlash.

All this does show that there is a blatant bias towards Fire Emblem, it’s just unarguable. Though to be fair I’m not upset with Byleth just supporting my stance

I really do hope one of the last six characters are from BotW2. It'd be so painful to watch Ultimate go away without a single character from either of the BotW games.

I think that the problem here is that a lot of people consider Link to be the "BOTW" character.

Believe me I really wish we got a BotW character, and i'm up for any of the champions. (although i'm most inclined for Urbosa and Mipha) But while everyone just argue that you cant add one champion withouth giving teh middle finger to teh others, and probably teh champions won't return for BotW2, Kass have already made it into my top 5 most wanted characters, as the most interesting BotW NPC, central to the expansion pass plot, related to all four of teh champions, and likely to return for BotW2.

How would he fight? well, that never have been an issue for other characters, but say that he oculd be some kinda of "Channeler" that channel the champions ballads in order to attack,and also uses the 4 champion abbilities much like Zelda uses the 3 Ocarina of time magics that link uses in the game.

Also he can come bundled with a BOTW2 zelda alt and a Ganondorf BotW2 alt (if he is an important character there) And a BOTW2 stage

 

[SKX31]

Fire Emblem causes controversy every couple years in smash and than the next game manages to make a couple millions more than the last

"There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." - Oscar Wilde

I don't fully agree with Wilde (it's a little more complicated than that), but the gist of it rings true.

I wouldn't call any of those characters niche. Persona 5 sold like 3 million copies, Dragon Quest is huge, SNK is pretty big as fighting games go (though to be fair fighting games are a pretty secluded community) and Three Houses also sold like 2 mil.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if 3H breaks 3 or even 4 million. We don't have the October to December data (that's likely to be revealed by Nintendo in mid-February).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wait, already? Damn that's insane, and Fates had like three separate versions too.

Yeah, and that's when it was reported back in September iirc, Smash and the awards given to the game may end up having helped it too but we'll find that out in March iirc

 

[I.D.]

I doubt we'll get a Cygames rep, but they can literally rep all their games by just putting in someone like Jeanne/Lucifer/Albert. They all appear in all of their major properties; and I'm fairly certain that they're all very popular in Japan.

I don't think Lucifer is in Dragalia yet; but I doubt he'll never get in even if they have to use Lucio instead.

Not really into GBF/Dragalia so someone else can probably fill better then me.

No, that's about right. There are some more than those 3 of course, but it would be someone like that.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Why does it matter that the main cast stays the same but everything else changes? You don't need to have just the main cast from a franchise, especially not one with side characters as iconic as Zelda and Mario.

Plus the whole revolving cast thing kinda dies imo when Xenoblade gave us two new worlds with two new casts and got nothing.

The revolving cast means new characters to promote in material. I totally agree with you on Xenoblade, but even Sakurai himself narrowed that down to timing (though I find that reasoning weird with Byleth, unless Rex was too late for base, but too early for DLC...Not too sure about that).

Mario games always focus on Mario. Rosalina is definitely somewhat of an exception, because she's absolutely a breakout star. She also had the ability to be malleable in terms of gameplay, and she definitely brings something.

I have to wonder if Sakurai has an aversion to adding one character from a set of characters, like the Three Houses leaders and BOTW Champions. Granted, Byleth brings quite a bit of new stuff on their own, but I wonder is all.

But anyway, Zelda games do bring in new characters, but Sakurai has never historically chosen the "one off" characters that show up in the games. The main cast is almost always Link, Zelda, some form of Ganon(dorf). That's essentially the "main cast", with Sheik coming in for Melee because of how popular she was at the time.

I do think it's worth noting, as I've said, that DLC is different from base game additions. Mascots, or primary protagonists often are better choices because they're easily recognizable to a general audience. Adding a side character doesn't have that same "oomph" so to speak.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

I don't fully agree with Wilde (it's a little more complicated than that), but the gist of it rings true.



Honestly wouldn't be surprised if 3H breaks 3 or even 4 million. We don't have the October to December data (that's likely to be revealed by Nintendo in mid-February).

Not even mid-Feb but most likely in the next 2 weeks as we should be getting their Q4 results by the end of the month.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

I think that the problem here is that a lot of people consider Link to be the "BOTW" character.

Believe me I really wish we got a BotW character, and i'm up for any of the champions. (although i'm most inclined for Urbosa and Mipha) But while everyone just argue that you cant add one champion withouth giving teh middle finger to teh others, and probably teh champions won't return for BotW2, Kass have already made it into my top 5 most wanted characters, as the most interesting BotW NPC, central to the expansion pass plot, related to all four of teh champions, and likely to return for BotW2.

How would he fight? well, that never have been an issue for other characters, but say that he oculd be some kinda of "Channeler" that channel the champions ballads in order to attack,and also uses the 4 champion abbilities much like Zelda uses the 3 Ocarina of time magics that link uses in the game.

Also he can come bundled with a BOTW2 zelda alt and a Ganondorf BotW2 alt (if he is an important character there) And a BOTW2 stage

That’s a fair point, Link does cover BotW to a degree, though even others like Skull Kid could’ve been considered at least. I think Kass would be utterly amazing though, in fact if you or anyone else is interested in seeing it I have a Kass moveset my friend and I made for a potential fangame I’ve been working on that shows him off well

 

[Garteam]

One of the advantages of Fire Emblem is that it's expanding into a multimedia franchise. Heroes does ridiculous well for a gacha (particular in the West, where gachas tend to struggle) and the Cipher card game also does quite well in Japan. Combine that with the fact that entries seem to be scaling up in terms of sales, it's highly likely we'll see more supplementary Fire Emblem content release as time goes on.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Why does it matter that the main cast stays the same but everything else changes? You don't need to have just the main cast from a franchise, especially not one with side characters as iconic as Zelda and Mario.

Plus the whole revolving cast thing kinda dies imo when Xenoblade gave us two new worlds with two new casts and got nothing.

To be fair, to not spoil too much, X ended on a sequel hook, so it's very likely Elma will return in X2, and thus I think she'd be more likely to be picked

and then there's Mecha-Fiora. Yes I know she's in Shulk's Final Smash but. Chrom. Just Chrom.

 

[NintenZ]

Didn't Dragalia Lost underperform quite badly compared to Granblue?

You're missing my point that we shouldn't compare things and judge them off their own merits.

In any case, Nintendo has considered the game a success, it's made $100m in revenue as of July, is Nintendo's second most successful mobile game behind Fire Emblem Heroes, and has had several crossover events of it's own such as with Mega Man and Monster Hunter.

For a new IP? I'd say it's doing pretty damn well.

 

[Wunderwaft]

But I think you are looking the problem with the wrong view imo. I'm almost sure people would accept FE characters more if more first party franchises receive more love.

In term of fighters where are Golden Sun and Rythm Heaven? Why is Dixie Kong still not in the game despise being one of the main character of the Donkey Kong Country? Same goes for Bandana Dee (more than 10 years whitout a new kirby rep). Xenoblade Chronciles could takes an other fighter without a doubt (Rex, Elma or Team Lora). Why not adding Poochy for the Yoshi serie? An other Wario Ware rep? Sure bring one. For oldies an Excitebike or Machrider fighter both have potentiel. And Zelda OH SWEET ZELDA. Why not Ganon, Impa, wolf link with Midona or even Tingle.


Of course some people always like to complain, but it's totally fine to be disapointed. It's just not fine to be rude.

You pretty much nailed it in the head. No one would give a **** that Fire Emblem has 8 characters if the other first party IPs received the same amount of love as well.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Oh I didn't kill their pets, I just got hella sick and vomited blood an hour before the reveal

Oof. I hope it wasn't too serious if you weren't joking.

 

[I.D.]

Dragalia Lost has actually been pretty successful and is an original IP.

Dude, it's known as Dragalia Flop among Granblue fans It's one of Cygames' least successful titles.

 

[N3ON]

What I'm saying is that you wouldnt know what is plausible or not. You're just basing it on your opinion of what you see as plausible. I highly doubt you guessed any of the characters in the first season or found any of them to be plausible. Theyre only plausible in hindsight.

You must have a pretty high opinion of yourself if you can tell me what I thought. Well, the only newcomers I've thought implausible beforehand have been Richter, Piranha Plant, and Terry. That's not to say I predicted all the others, just that the notion of their inclusion didn't strike me as a long shot.

Because all plausibility is is gauging which characters rank highly in factors that historically have lead to inclusion, or have extenuating boons in their case, such as developer statements, suspicious omissions, or believable leaks. It's just reading the terrain to come to an educated deduction. It's not infallible, but, unless your head is in the clouds, it's not worthless either.

So, if you found all the characters in the pass implausible beforehand as you're accusing of me, and you think your list with, like, Earthworm Jim, Klonoa, the Battletoads and F-Type is comparable from a likelihood perspective, I'd say my outlook is more reliable.

It's the truth. I dont really care about the labels people will put on me for speaking the truth. If that's cynicism to some people I couldnt care less.

Yes, you're some great martyr that looks at two characters with original movesets and argues unironically that they've brought nothing new.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

One of the advantages of Fire Emblem is that it's expanding into a multimedia franchise. Heroes does ridiculous well for a gacha (particular in the West, where gachas tend to struggle) and the Cipher card game also does quite well in Japan. Combine that with the fact that entries seem to be scaling up in terms of sales, it's highly likely we'll see more supplementary Fire Emblem content release as time goes on.

Not just that, but in late 2017 they even teased an Anime being in the works.
https://www.destructoid.com/fire-emblem-anime-hits-the-rumor-mill-457769.phtml
But admittedly it hasn't been talked about since so we have no idea what happen to it.

 

[Droodle]

I don't think Nintendo has been treating like an underdog, they've called a major IP since 2016 after the success of Awakening and Fates.
https://mynintendonews.com/2016/04/28/fire-emblem-is-now-considered-a-major-ip-for-nintendo/
One of the last major Wii U games was an Fire Emblem spin off which just had a Switch port released yesterday.
Another spin off was released for the Switch in the first year of the console's life.
Three Houses was one of the first, first party's to be confirmed to be in development for the Switch.
When they announced the Feb 2019 direct, they flat out said there would be new info on Three Houses.
Fire Emblem Heroes makes more money then all of their mobile games by a wide margin.
I don't think Nintendo sees it as an underdog, I think they see it as one of their most important franchises due to its success last decade.

Yeah, anyone who says that FE is not a big IP nowadays for Nintendo is just wrong.

You can say that you don't like Byleth in Smash; but FE is definitely a major IP.

Not on the levels of let's say Mario, DK, Pokemon, Zelda, Splatoon; but with how rapidly it's been growing since Awakening, it's bigger then the likes of Metroid, Star fox, and Mario RPGs.

Since Awakening's success FE has had hit after hit; and arguably still has yet to reach its peak. It's gotten a successful gacha, card game, and multiple spinoffs.

The only other series that has boomed like FE is Xenoblade after 2; and even then it's not even close in terms of overall popularity.

 

[GoodGrief741]

But anyway, Zelda games do bring in new characters, but Sakurai has never historically chosen the "one off" characters that show up in the games.

Yeah, but I've yet to hear a good reason why.

Mascots, or primary protagonists often are better choices because they're easily recognizable to a general audience.

Ehhh, depends. Honestly there's many side characters that are more recognizable than some main characters.

Plus I don't know if general audiences are the concern, is Byleth really that known to a general audience?

Adding a side character doesn't have that same "oomph" so to speak.

Again, depends on who you're talking about. I don't think it's that black or white.

To be fair, to not spoil too much, X ended on a sequel hook, so it's very likely Elma will return in X2, and thus I think she'd be more likely to be picked

and then there's Mecha-Fiora. Yes I know she's in Shulk's Final Smash but. Chrom. Just Chrom.

I mean, I'm rooting for you, but it remains to be seen if there's ever an X2. I think it's more likely that they just go on with a Xenoblade 3 and 4.

 

[[Maple]]

I want to add one thing: if you are mad that a FE Character got in instead of your most wanted third party character...well it's kind of dumb.

85% of my most wanted are third parties, but guests in Smash are not the norm, they are the exceptions. Don't be insulted if a third party got shift by a first-party.

 

[Idon]

TMS is a Fire Emblem spin-off and also was a commercial flop when it first came out, that's a terrible comparison when Dragalia Lost has actually been pretty successful and is an original IP.

I just really don't see where the lines connect with a random mobile game and Smash Bros, it only seems like it would benefit CyGames more then it would Nintendo, and in that case why not have something that benefits them both?

You're missing the point of the comparison.

Why would they choose a character for the connection it has to Nintendo when instead they have their own franchise which they absolutely love moreso?
At the point where a company pays for a concert, a convention, a fighting game, and an action game (and whatever else I forgot) for their own personal gacha, I think it's safe to say that's where their priorities lie.