Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[GoodGrief741]

I haven't seen that new Grinch movie yet. Nobody wanted to see it with me lol

Couldn’t watch it anyway. The version I... *ahem* downloaded didn’t play audio on my tv, so I ended up watching Smallfoot instead.

The lesson here is that crime doesn’t pay kids.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's one way to figure out certain roster choices, but it's not the only way and I also don't think that it's usually the best way.

And no, they weren't out of feasible choices. There are plenty of Nintendo characters without licensing issues (and maybe some third parties where licensing wouldn't be too much of an issue) who'd take no more time than Corrin (in some cases even less time than Corrin) to implement properly. You don't really have any evidence that says that there was no other choice besides an adverchar.

Lastly, any of the other reasons beyond advertising only helped him get chosen over other advertising choices. The fact that they chose Corrin over, say, Azura or another recent character isn't the problem. They used the advertising requirement to unnecessarily restrict the set of possible choices.

*Shrugs* I don't honestly find advertising characters a remote problem nor quotas. I honestly think they are the best way to do things sometimes, as there's just too many characters to sort through. Setting a straight goal is important.

I had more to say, but I honestly don't believe it would amount to anything. But I feel kind of like **** right now, so eh.

 

[SPEN18]

Shrugs* I don't honestly find advertising characters a remote problem nor quotas. I honestly think they are the best way to do things sometimes, as there's just too many characters to sort through. Setting a straight goal is important.

I mean, an issue that a lot of people have with adverchars is that characters chosen for recency are unproven; they haven't built a legacy yet and are hard to evaluate properly because of recency bias. A new game could flop, or it could do well but not have much lasting impact on the industry or the fans.

The other big issue has less to do with adverchars themselves and more to do with the bigger roster picture: generally, two things get in Smash way more easily than anything else, and those are recent characters and stuff that came out of the 80s. There's a lot in between those two eras that gets constantly excluded when it comes to the playable roster and the focus on adverchars contributes to that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, an issue that a lot of people have with adverchars is that characters chosen for recency are unproven; they haven't built a legacy yet and are hard to evaluate properly because of recency bias. A new game could flop, or it could do well but not have much lasting impact on the industry or the fans.

Yeah, that's part of why Corrin wasn't too popular. Roy didn't seem to matter as much, but to be fair, it was FE's first appearance in Smash. Most characters are chosen due to recency and good timing, anyway. It's about the development being around the same time. Otherwise it's too late for them to get in. 3rd parties and retros and surprise additions are the exception to this.

The other big issue has less to do with adverchars themselves and more to do with the bigger roster picture: generally, two things get in Smash way more easily than anything else, and those are recent characters and stuff that came out of the 80s. There's a lot in between those two eras that gets constantly excluded when it comes to the playable roster and the focus on adverchars contributes to that.

He literally only focused on Corrin and Roy anyway. There weren't any other ones beyond those, so... I'm not sure where this is coming from. Recency has nothing to do with advertisement. Recency is solely about having good timing with the development of the game. Advertisement is only characters who were chosen for the sole purpose to promote their game. Problem is the games are already well out before Smash is, so they don't exist to promote them anyway. They exist due to good timing only. The recency thing is more about being relevant, which means people will already know who they are and would easily play as them. He has to take the casual fanbase into account. The hardcore fanbase isn't the whole puzzle, which is where most of the votes for the less relevant characters come from. The characters already added are highly recognizable to the casual fanbase,

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Most characters are chosen due to recency and good timing, anyway. It's about the development being around the same time. Otherwise it's too late for them to get in. 3rd parties and retros and surprise additions are the exception to this.

This is why most characters in Brawl were from the Gamecube (Ike, Toon Link, etc.) most characters in Smash 4 were from the Wii (Little Mac, Rosalina & Luma, etc.), and the only character in Smash Ultimate that debuted on the Switch was Champion Link, but in this case the game was in development for so long the details of what this character could do were probably already known.

EDIT: In fact, I think Pokémon is the only series that they pull characters from while the game the debut in is only in it's beginning stages of development.

 

[ProfPeanut]

Couldn’t watch it anyway. The version I... *ahem* downloaded didn’t play audio on my tv, so I ended up watching Smallfoot instead.

The lesson here is that crime doesn’t pay kids.

I think the real lesson here is that there are better movies about furry bipeds who isolate themselves on high mountains and overcome their own narrow-mindedness than Illumination's The Grinch.

...the only character in Smash Ultimate that debuted on the Switch was Champion Link, but in this case the game was in development for so long the details of what this character could do were probably already known.

Wouldn't the pattern hold that Ultimate pull from the Wii U/3DS? Because you basically count Inkling, Isabelle, and Incineroar (three "I"s, huh) that way.

 

[SPEN18]

It's about the development being around the same time. Otherwise it's too late for them to get in. 3rd parties and retros and surprise additions are the exception to this.

But why should it ever be "too late" for a character to make it? It shouldn't matter if the game was out right around the project plan or ten years before it. If the character is important, iconic, and popular, why should timing matter? I'll reiterate that "bad timing" is a poor excuse.

He literally only focused on Corrin and Roy anyway. There weren't any other ones beyond those, so... I'm not sure where this is coming from. Recency has nothing to do with advertisement. Recency is solely about having good timing with the development of the game. Advertisement is only characters who were chosen for the sole purpose to promote their game. Problem is the games are already well out before Smash is, so they don't exist to promote them anyway. They exist due to good timing only. The recency thing is more about being relevant, which means people will already know who they are and would easily play as them. He has to take the casual fanbase into account. The hardcore fanbase isn't the whole puzzle, which is where most of the votes for the less relevant characters come from. The characters already added are highly recognizable to the casual fanbase,

You're right that recency and advertisement are different things, but they're strongly related. You say that "advertisement is only characters who were chosen for the sole purpose to promote their game." But in order to effectively promote a game, that game usually has to be a recent or upcoming game. So pretty much all adverchars are connected to recency (which is the larger problem) but not all "recency" characters are "adverchars." The discussion about Corrin and adverchars was a piece of the larger recency issue. Also, the fact that the games for recent characters are usually well past release when Smash is finished is part of the reason that "good timing" is a poor reason to include a character; moreover, it doesn't change the fact that these characters are unproven commodities when they are added to the roster.

As an aside, one could argue that the Melee and Brawl vets were kind of like "adverchars" not related to recency, as they were only added as part of a massive marketing gimmick, but that's a separate issue with the roster.

Lastly, I do understand that casual players should have some recognizeable characters that are more approachable for them to play. But at the same time, we're talking about a game that already has Mario, Link, and Pikachu. It also already has a number of characters that are still "relevant" but have also earned their stripes within the hardcore group, like Inkling. In a few cases like this, you can get a character that appeals to both groups. And just because a character is older doesn't automatically make them less recognizeable; for example, among the Fire Emblem characters, Lyn is probably just as recognizeable as someone like Corrin (this is evidenced by Lyn's magnificent performance in CYL, a poll that was targeted towards players of a phone game that heavily skews towards the recent end in terms of its marketing and character selection).

 

[MissingGlitch]

I would argue that a majority of the game is already characters casuals would recognize. The argument that the DLC should only be characters that casuals recognize it's kinda depressing. Like you have to convince them to buy the DLC because hardcore players are going to buy it regardless of what its contents are.

 

[osby]

I would argue that a majority of the game is already characters casuals would recognize. The argument that the DLC should only be characters that casuals recognize it's kinda depressing. Like you have to convince them to buy the DLC because hardcore players are going to buy it regardless of what its contents are.

I don't see what's depressing about this.

 

[MissingGlitch]

I don't see what's depressing about this.

Because that means there is a whole lot of fan favorite characters that will just be thrown out and never considered because little timmy won't recognize them.

 

[osby]

Because that means there is a whole lot of fan favorite characters that will just be thrown out and never considered because little timmy won't recognize them.

Nice, I don't like the idea of keeping interesting characters away from Smash just because we need to fill internet forums' check lists first.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Nice, I don't like the idea of keeping interesting characters away from Smash just because we need to fill internet forums' check lists first.

So basically what I just said in reverse. It's almost like Nintendo's best bet is catering the DLC to both casuals and hardcore fans for the best results. Instead of one specific party so all characters are still on the table to consider.

 

[Megadoomer]

I would argue that a majority of the game is already characters casuals would recognize. The argument that the DLC should only be characters that casuals recognize it's kinda depressing. Like you have to convince them to buy the DLC because hardcore players are going to buy it regardless of what its contents are.

I can't see them taking that route with it - the final two characters for Smash 4's DLC were the main character of an M-rated niche franchise and a character from a game that hadn't been released outside of Japan at the time, and for Smash Ultimate, we've got a character from Persona 5, a game that a casual Nintendo fan wouldn't be very familiar with.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Wouldn't the pattern hold that Ultimate pull from the Wii U/3DS? Because you basically count Inkling, Isabelle, and Incineroar (three "I"s, huh) that way.

Eh, I was thinking in terms of previous console generations, and most newcomers in Smash Ultimate are actually older characters to please fans (). The 3Ds characters () aren't technically from a previous console generation causing the Inkling to be the sole character (ignoring Breath of the Wild's simultanious release with the Switch version.) fitting the criteria I was thinking of.

There's also the fact that Inciniroar was chosen pre-emptively so he doesn't really fit the criteria I was going for even if you do consider the 3Ds to be a previous console generation since most people don't care about it anymore.

I'm also ignoring DLC characters since they are chosen after the game is finished, and thus they can more easily be from current console generations.

 

[SPEN18]

most newcomers in Smash Ultimate are actually older characters to please fans ().

But 4 of those are throw-in Echoes. Of the other three, two are 80s icons. And even with K. Rool there's still more than a decade of history that's completely missing. I guess you can count Dark Samus and Ridley repping Metroid Prime, but Dark Samus clearly only made it because it was an easy Echo and Ridley is primarily based off his retro design. When it comes to uniques it's arcade/NES or recent stuff, with the exception of K. Rool.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

But 4 of those are throw-in Echoes. Of the other three, two are 80s icons. And even with K. Rool there's still more than a decade of history that's completely missing. I guess you can count Dark Samus and Ridley repping Metroid Prime, but Dark Samus clearly only made it because it was an easy Echo and Ridley is primarily based off his retro design. When it comes to uniques it's arcade/NES or recent stuff, with the exception of K. Rool.

My point was that characters that exist on the same console as the smash game don't get added to the game because they don't exist in time for consideration. This causes most of the newcomers of each game to be from the previous console generation. This doesn't fit Ultimate exactly since three of its newcomers are SNES and older, two of them are from the Wii U era, and one went the way of Greninja and was picked before it even existed.

As far as things originating from switch games, Breath of the Wild's Champion Link design and playstyle, the Great Plateau Tower, and Sheik's clothing were probably known around the time development was starting since Breath of the Wild was delayed for so long. All of the other switch assets were likely easy to make (most of them are just song ripps). The exception is New Donk City, and in that case it was either stated that they were going to have a Mario Odyssey stage and they added it when it the level started to come into it's final form, or the level was the first one to be finished. Probably a little of both.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Idk why y'all complaining about the series reps when we got more classic (and more requested) fighters to appear who had household names for Smash from the 80's and 90's


In about 20 years or so, y'all gonna come back and say these guys are legends while those from the 00's and 10's are with deserving

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Played around with Piranha Plant. She's fun.

Given that the Plant isn't exactly the most iconic minion character in Mario, I wonder how upset people would be if Bronto Burt or Waddle Doo got added in over BanDee.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Played around with Piranha Plant. She's fun.

Given that the Plant isn't exactly the most iconic minion character in Mario, I wonder how upset people would be if Bronto Burt or Waddle Doo got added in over BanDee.

Waddle Dee with a Bandana skin would go over super well I think.

/s

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Idk why y'all complaining about the series reps when we got more classic (and more requested) fighters to appear who had household names for Smash from the 80's and 90's


In about 20 years or so, y'all gonna come back and say these guys are legends while those from the 00's and 10's are with deserving

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Played around with Piranha Plant. She's fun.

Given that the Plant isn't exactly the most iconic minion character in Mario, I wonder how upset people would be if Bronto Burt or Waddle Doo got added in over BanDee.

People would be majorly upset. Unlike Piranha Plant, Kirby enemies don't really have many iterations or a unique body type to draw off of. You could base a generic Waddle Dee fighter off of the many antics they have in the modern Kirby games but it would feel very vanilla and at that point you should just add Bandana Dee.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Played around with Piranha Plant. She's fun.

Given that the Plant isn't exactly the most iconic minion character in Mario, I wonder how upset people would be if Bronto Burt or Waddle Doo got added in over BanDee.

That would be odd. A regular Waddle Dee that also has a Bandanna costume I would be fine with, though. It's not as good as Bandanna Waddle Dee specifically, but I'm not that picky.

(For the record, it's going to go in circles, so that's why I'm not replying to the other stuff. I already explained my piece on why quotas exist. You'd have to ask Sakurai why he only does it based upon "good timing". Either my answer isn't good enough, or maybe I don't know. So basically, my part is ended. Now, as a game developer myself, I've already realized how much work things are, and that quotas are a necessity as well as doing things with the right timing. When getting a character, them being at a relevant time also means it's easier to understand how they're supposed to work and get the other team behind the character to help you. You also have a very clear character design and abilities to go off of. It doesn't mean to ignore other characters, but making some of these based upon relevancy does actually help too. When you have over 100 choices, narrowing it down to around 10 is a smart idea when you have a severely huge roster. Of course, part of this is due to him already deciding to return all veterans. I do think we'd have gotten a few more less relevant characters, namely cause they existed early enough like Isaac does. Anybody who didn't exist when the project plan was finished, bar a specific quota made, are easily too late to add to development. They need a clear goal in mind. You can't get a clear goal any other way.)

 

[SPEN18]

When getting a character, them being at a relevant time also means it's easier to understand how they're supposed to work and get the other team behind the character to help you. You also have a very clear character design and abilities to go off of.

I don't think that Sakurai is or should be taking an easy way out. He says that he agonizes over roster choices, so I don't think the recency quotas are due to him not wanting to put more work into older characters.

When you have over 100 choices, narrowing it down to around 10 is a smart idea when you have a severely huge roster.

I mean, you have to narrow it down in some manner. But I don't think that narrowing down to just characters from one era is the way to do it.

 

[andree123]

Using and in Century smash can corrupt your save file, avoid that.
Source
Someone has messed with the params with and , I'm guessing they were testing the new params for Lloyd Irving () and Banjo and Kazooie ().

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

SPEN18 That had nothing to do with Sakurai in context in the reply you made.

I was strictly referring to my views as a Developer. For the record, my post was done poorly and I believe this is a misunderstanding. And with that, I am no longer in this conversation at all(and if anyone happens to tag/quote old posts, I'll ignore it as I'm fully out. I don't mean that disrespectfully, I just don't see a reason to waste anyone's time anymore).

----------------

For the record as well, I am no longer a Smash Ultimate Mod since I can't honestly take these severely long-winded conversations either. They're too stressful for me to deal with. I won't get into the details cause I honestly believe trying to say exactly why would only create more problems and there's no way to do it without coming off as flaming.

That said, I am still the topic owner of the Newcomer Support Directory so I can still update it. Please don't tag me about it, though. I'm just only able to do it on my free time, but it's not actually my job, as I left that particular job. There's just little reason for me to not be able to do it when I participate in these topics anyway. It's more that I was the only one doing it and I needed a break and more help from my coworkers.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Someone has messed with the params with and , I'm guessing they were testing the new params for Lloyd Irving () and Banjo and Kazooie ().

That makes no sense. Why would they fiddle around with finished characters in order to test different ones? Banjo and Kazooie don't even have a body type similar to Duck Hunt. The more likely explanation is that it's just a screw up.

EDIT: Piranha Plant has a similar problem as well. It's probably best to stay away from All Star Smash for now.

 

[Guynamednelson]

If those two characters having glitches means something for DLC newcomers that might mean points in Erdrick's favor.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I'm sorry but throwing DLC params onto an already-present fighter that's completely different to test sounds like a stretch; also, that doesn't mention their params being changed at all, just that they cause the glitch.

edit: tbh not sure what params are exactly but it's still most-likely a mistake, as it'd make no sense for them to be Banjo-Kazooie or Lloyd because they're not the same at all.

 

[RileyXY1]

If those two characters having glitches means something for DLC newcomers that might mean points in Erdrick's favor.

It could refer to any sword user.

 

[Deleted member]

That makes no sense. Why would they fiddle around with finished characters in order to test different ones? Banjo and Kazooie don't even have a body type similar to Duck Hunt. The more likely explanation is that it's just a screw up.

EDIT: Piranha Plant has a similar problem as well. It's probably best to stay away from All Star Smash for now.

I would imagine that they would make a copy of the character in question to test. I doubt they would make something so silly as modifying the character directly.

Most likely the addition of PP messed up something in the All Star Smash (hate that I cant abreviate this without laughing)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Using and in Century smash can corrupt your save file, avoid that.
Source
Someone has messed with the params with and , I'm guessing they were testing the new params for Lloyd Irving () and Banjo and Kazooie ().

This is a serious stretch. Even Spring Man is less stretchy. Bad joke aside, though(and yes, it's in jest)... Besides PP having the same issues, why on earth would they do this? Besides that, B&K are nothing alike them besides Kazooie also being a beard. Dogs and Bears aren't related.

PP also gives issues with the Spirit Board. It's just some DLC bugs due to changes they made. If you mess up with the coding, you can royally screw up the game. They simply messed up.

Mewtwo did something similar in Multi-Man Smash too, so this looks to be just an issue with trying to make DLC work with that mode. Why it affects Spirit Board and Swordfighter/Duck Hunt is a good question, though.

 

[RileyXY1]

I don't think that Mii Swordfighter and Duck Hunt crashing Century Smash means anything in terms of DLC characters.

 

[SPEN18]

yeah the short answer to the whole bug stuff is that code is very fragile and you have to be very careful when making any changes, especially when you're updating a completed project that is already published

on one hand they're professionals and probably shouldn't be messing things up this badly, but they're also human and unexpected things happen frequently with development

 

[marxfromkirby]

Well, unpopular choice, but I would like the player (Terrarian, as I call it, despite the yo-yo existence.) to join Smash, I know it won't happen, but because that 1.3.6/1.4 update is coming, along with a Switch port. and had Japan exclusive content, had also a 3DS port, which makes him have some chances.
His moves could be based out of weapons and bosses. He wouldn't be just a swordfighter, because there are many possiblities for his moveset. His Final Smash could summon Moon Lord to fight for him, just like Piranha Plant's final smash. Skins could be NPCs.

Terraria has some nice music, the stage can be any biome , or biomes that keep changing. If spirits (not fighter spirits) DO happen for DLC, it can be enemies, NPCs and bosses.
If bosses for DLC characters happen, Moon Lord or Wall of Flesh could be it.

And imagine seeing Terraria in 3D.

 

[osby]

Well, unpopular choice, but I would like Terrarian to join Smash, I know it won't happen, but because that 1.3.6/1.4 update is coming, along with a Switch port. and had Japan exclusive content, had also a 3DS port, which makes him have some chances.
His moves could be based out of weapons and bosses. He wouldn't be just a swordfighter, because there are many possiblities for his moveset. His Final Smash could summon Moon Lord to fight for him, just like Piranha Plant's final smash. Skins could be NPCs.

Terraria has some nice music, the stage can be any biome , or biomes that keep changing. If spirits (not fighter spirits) DO happen for DLC, it can be enemies, NPCs and bosses.
If bosses for DLC characters happen, Moon Lord or Wall of Flesh could be it.

And imagine seeing Terraria in 3D.

What's a Terrerian?

 

[marxfromkirby]

I call it the player of the character you play in Terraria, as since haven't seen any official names for the player.
https://terraria.org/

 

[RileyXY1]

Using and in Century smash can corrupt your save file, avoid that.
Source
Someone has messed with the params with and , I'm guessing they were testing the new params for Lloyd Irving () and Banjo and Kazooie ().

Even then, I don't think that BK will be built from DH because Banjo and the Dog have entirely different body styles (the Duck Hunt Dog is quadrupedal, while Banjo is bipedal).

 

[shocktarts17]

Even then, I don't think that BK will be built from DH because Banjo and the Dog have entirely different body styles (the Duck Hunt Dog is quadrupedal, while Banjo is bipedal).

My first reaction is to agree with you but I wonder if there being two character models (the dog and bird) already would make it make sense, where the dog even stands on his hind legs for a few attacks so it would just be standing up the dog as opposed to adding a whole separate model on another character.

I'm still not sure I understand why they would need to do this but if they needed to start somewhere I could see Duck Hunt being a good starting point for Banjo.

 

[SpectreJordan]

After those sales numbers, there’s no way we don’t get a second Fighter Pass now.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it has even “bigger” characters than the first one will; everyone’s going to want a piece of this game now.

 

[RileyXY1]

After those sales numbers, there’s no way we don’t get a second Fighter Pass now.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it has even “bigger” characters than the first one will; everyone’s going to want a piece of this game now.

Yeah. I believe that we are most likely getting more DLC after this Fighter Pass.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I would imagine that they would make a copy of the character in question to test. I doubt they would make something so silly as modifying the character directly.

Even then, I don't think that BK will be built from DH because Banjo and the Dog have entirely different body styles (the Duck Hunt Dog is quadrupedal, while Banjo is bipedal).

I now immagine Duck Hunt moveset swapped with a hypothetical Banjo. The animation would be so hilarious looking.