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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Door Key Pig

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Yeah after the plant from Mario got in as a creative playable character, you're kinda squandering potential by saying there are no viable Nintendo characters left. In the context of hype money making DLC tho, maybe it's more understandable...
Rhythm Heaven has no de facto and easy choice. Chorus Kids were considered, but beyond that, nobody stands out for sure. The issue is how to make the rhythm gameplay translate to Smash well, which is possibly why it never happened, regardless of who they could choose. As we saw with Donkey Kong, his previous Final Smash was extremely difficult to use properly, so they might be out of the running for balance issues. Rest I'll give you, though.
Could you maybe say similar for someone like Ryu that functions uniquely from the rest of the cast? (minus Ken oc) Plus we have a few fighters with timed button press moves as it is (Incineroar's rope thing, Link's side smash was it?), so it's not too bad an idea that they could have a bunch of those for a RH character at least in the special moves, maybe with a "flow" meter charged by correct inputs and taunting or something like Cloud and Robin have.
I'll give you that Chorus Kids, both supposedly being the Gemetsu leaked Sm4sh character and the one chosen to have a Smash tag picture in Ultimate (maybe being the closest thing it has to an iconic/marketable character?), being a spirit alongside the other popular choice Karate Joe ain't looking the best for them. And though he's not a spirit, Tibby doesn't have too much of an importance outside of being the definitive main character of one game so far. Though some hybrid character ala Duck Hunt (like the moveset Kevin Fagaragan did) isn't ruled out by the spirits currently in the game.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Could you maybe say similar for someone like Ryu that functions uniquely from the rest of the cast? (minus Ken oc) Plus we have a few fighters with timed button press moves as it is (Incineroar's rope thing, Link's side smash was it?), so it's not too bad an idea that they could have a bunch of those for a RH character at least in the special moves, maybe with a "flow" meter charged by correct inputs and taunting or something like Cloud and Robin have.
I'll give you that Chorus Kids, both supposedly being the Gemetsu leaked Sm4sh character and the one chosen to have a Smash tag picture in Ultimate (maybe being the closest thing it has to an iconic/marketable character?), being a spirit alongside the other popular choice Karate Joe ain't looking the best for them. And though he's not a spirit, Tibby doesn't have too much of an importance outside of being the definitive main character of one game so far. Though some hybrid character ala Duck Hunt (like the moveset Kevin Fagaragan did) isn't ruled out by the spirits currently in the game.
It's not really the same situation here for timed input alone. That's not the same thing as matching the rhythm, which is the point of Rhythm Heaven. Their gameplay is pretty much Donkey Kong's Brawl/4 Final Smash.

Input Commands aren't about hitting it to the rhythm, it's just about doing everything in a specific order of button/stick presses. Very very different situation. Being that many attacks are literally Stick Direction + Button, input commands were far easier to translate. We also had something similar with Marth and Roy's Forward B in Melee. They are types of input commands. I mean, technically speaking, Smash is heavily about input commands, just simplified ones.

I don't know much about RH other than the type of gameplay it has. I found that out quite quickly with Sonic Chronicles. That said, I don't know the Spirit count. I think what'll be the important part is whether he can translate the Rhythm gameplay faithfully and also make it reasonably usable balance-wise.
 

Door Key Pig

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It's not really the same situation here for timed input alone. That's not the same thing as matching the rhythm, which is the point of Rhythm Heaven. Their gameplay is pretty much Donkey Kong's Brawl/4 Final Smash.

Input Commands aren't about hitting it to the rhythm, it's just about doing everything in a specific order of button/stick presses. Very very different situation. Being that many attacks are literally Stick Direction + Button, input commands were far easier to translate. We also had something similar with Marth and Roy's Forward B in Melee. They are types of input commands. I mean, technically speaking, Smash is heavily about input commands, just simplified ones.

I don't know much about RH other than the type of gameplay it has. I found that out quite quickly with Sonic Chronicles. That said, I don't know the Spirit count. I think what'll be the important part is whether he can translate the Rhythm gameplay faithfully and also make it reasonably usable balance-wise.
Technically speaking there's like 9 or so spirits, which might be a bit of a lot for a series that otherwise has no significant representation in Ultimate like an AT, Mii costume or stage, only having a few music tracks.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Technically speaking there's like 9 or so spirits, which might be a bit of a lot for a series that otherwise has no significant representation in Ultimate like an AT, Mii costume or stage, only having a few music tracks.
The AT list is pretty lackluster too. So I wouldn't say it means that much. Spirits are far easier to make than AT's in comparison, so a lot of representation is through that.

We also had cuts like Magnus, so... yeah.

I almost am not sure what that has to do with the point I was making, anyway? That they are harder to translate to Smash than input commands alone.
 

Tetrin

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I think a lot of people feel BotW deserves a rep, but the champions seem like an all or nothing deal, Calamity Ganon is way too big (obligatory "bUt So Is RiDlEy!!1!11"), Kass has almost no moveset potential (same with Master Kohga), and there's really nothing else I could possibly say has been speculated apart from Yiga soldiers, Guardians, or Lynels, but those all seem way too odd.

So I saw this one thread that was a support thread for Monk Maz Koshia, and honestly, I think he might just be the perfect rep for BotW.
- Mentioned in every shrine.
- Moveset potential.
- Would be an awesome surprise.
 

Ornl

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It's true that Monk Maz Koshia is much more interesting than anyone else in BotW.
However, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf and Link are already relatively representative of BotW.

Also, the original 8 has their villain, though it is more ambiguous about Wolf and Mewtwo, and if one accepts that Bowser Jr. can be the villain from Yoshi. The smash community has already supported several Zelda villains (Skullkid, Vaati, Ghirahim, Pig Ganon...). But it will be fine, thanks. Zelda is the only game to have 6 non-Echo rep after Mario and Pokemon. In theit side, DK, Kirby, Fox Star and Metroid are exactly half as much. If Toon Link had become the Echo character of Young Link, I would have said why not find a new slot. But not.
 

SmashChu

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One that Sakurai has proven he cares little about. Same with Nintendo. Business comes first, not purist loyalty. It's why they opt for many 3rd parties, to help sell the system and get more people interested. They never were in their own bubble from the start, using 3rd party stuff to sell the NES too. They knew the purity was pointless right away. It doesn't help. Smash was never about Nintendo purity. It was, at first, about making sure it had characters that people would recognize. It was just way easier during Smash 64 to use characters Nintendo already owned since it was a project that was made strictly for the 64. And I think this was before Sakurai made his own company, meaning it's an in-house project. They couldn't make it sell well on generic characters(who also shared the same model that Captain Falcon got). So since then, the focus was on notable characters, with the only extremely obscure being Nintendo-owned. Every 3rd party has been iconic or niche, but nobody truly obscure. Bayonetta, as noted, was still pretty well known, but nowhere on the same degrees as the rest, who were huge.

I can't see it as sad, because I see it as the right way to go. Sales should come before sticking to your own bubble. That's just plain smart. It's a business-based game. Nostalgia is fine. We have more than enough of it. But trying to only appeal to a small portion of gamers is room for disaster. There's nothing sad about what's happening. It's people not looking at the full picture instead.

I also don't believe in Nintendo purist loyalty being anything but a bad thing, so eh. People need to get out of their bubbles and look at the full picture. Snake and Sonic were in consideration even during Melee, and the only reason was given they couldn't be in was because it was too late into development. There was nothing to suggest that a Nintendo factor ever mattered. And the only actual character at this time where some Nintendo factor mattered is Bayonetta, and we still lack information that makes that 100% clear.
First, we don't know if the rest of the fighter pass with be third party. So let's move on from that for now.

Second, the idea that Smash isn't a Nintendo crossover is silly. About 90% of the cast is from Nintendo. If they were trying to make something other than that then they are doing a pretty awful job. If the "Nintendo aspect" was not important then they are doing a pretty ****ty job of conveying that. Also, you bring up a lot of this stuff about how the console wars don't matter or what not. You do realize this is a Nintendo exclusive IP right? It will never be on the other consoles. "We shouldn't care about console wars" well then why hasn't Sakurai pushed for making Smash Bros available on Steam, PS4 and XBox One. It's a silly point.

But here is what I think your missing in your comments (this one and the subsequent ones). No one says "You know what Marvel vs Capcom really needs? DC characters. Oh, and Tekken characters." Or "You know what Heroes of the Storm needs. Valve characters." That's because those games can be their own distinct crossovers without having to rely on pushing in other characters. It's only Smash Bros that must change. The point of Smash Bros was celebrating Nintendo's games and history. That's why you have ROB, a toy Nintendo made, in Smash Bros. To say it wasn't important is admission you weren't paying attention. Even when it comes to guest characters, its about who is close to Nintendo. Why do you think Sonic was the most popular guest character. Why was Megaman more popular than Resident Evil and Street Fighter despite the Megaman series having only 4 titles that have ever broken 1 million in sales. Why is Banjo, a character who has been dead for 10 years, a popular request? Hell, why do you think people were upset when Cloud was added?

The series being about Nintendo has been and still is there. Have you noticed more people decrying the guest characters. Use to be just little old me, but more people have been saying they aren't happy with the amount of guest characters or the ones they are adding have nothing to do with Nintendo. There aren't a lot, sure, but do you think that the number wouldn't grow if the entire fighter pass was third party characters? The issue is the identity of Smash, whether people (including Sakurai) want to admit it or not, is Nintendo. Having Smash become something else just turns into an amorphus blog that is unrecognizable. Consider this: if you were describing Smash, you might say "Oh, it's a Nintendo fighting game". But what about describing NuSmash? "Oh, it's a video game character fighting game." I'm sure characters from Grand Theft Auto, Red Dead Redemption, Witcher and Call of Duty will pop into folks head way faster than Persona and Castlevania. Regardless, the series becomes less distinct when you try to make it about something else.

I'll close off with this. What brought people to Smash was this celebration of Nintendo. It gave the series an identity and gave a roadmap to what can be added. It also allowed them to add unique characters like Wii Fit Trainer and ROB. When someone like me says that it's upsetting that they are ignoring Nintendo characters, its because the series losses what made it distinct and interesting. If they add a Nintendo character as a DLC, even if I wasn't interested in them, I might say "I don't know much about that series, but it's cool to see something from Nintendo's catalog in there." With Joker, it's "Oh, well I don't know anything about Joker, I don't have time to play Persona and I don't care about Atlus so I'll just avoid this character." At least if this character wasn't important to you, you can take solace in that it's a part of Nintendo's history or a popular character from their library. When it's non-Nintendo character it doesn't matter and the character was added because "why not." You can easily apply the "Soul vs Soulless" meme to Smash and NuSmash.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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First, we don't know if the rest of the fighter pass with be third party. So let's move on from that for now.
Despite it being implied they have a strong chance to be. But it should honestly be considered a strong possibility regardless.

Second, the idea that Smash isn't a Nintendo crossover is silly. About 90% of the cast is from Nintendo. If they were trying to make something other than that then they are doing a pretty awful job. If the "Nintendo aspect" was not important then they are doing a pretty ****ty job of conveying that. Also, you bring up a lot of this stuff about how the console wars don't matter or what not. You do realize this is a Nintendo exclusive IP right? It will never be on the other consoles. "We shouldn't care about console wars" well then why hasn't Sakurai pushed for making Smash Bros available on Steam, PS4 and XBox One. It's a silly point.
They weren't trying to make it strictly that even since Melee, where Sakurai had no known issues with 3rd party content. It's called Super Smash Bros., not Super Nintendo Bros. It's a gaming crossover filled with rich gaming history. Sakurai himself had made it clear what his goal is. The Nintendo part is only some of it, because it's a 1st party game on Nintendo. It doesn't matter that it's Nintendo exclusive either(it's on a Nintendo system, but the content is definitely not Nintendo exclusive). It's not the actual narrative. The narrative is the "greatest crossover game in gaming history" according to the developer himself. That's the reality here.

But here is what I think your missing in your comments (this one and the subsequent ones). No one says "You know what Marvel vs Capcom really needs? DC characters. Oh, and Tekken characters." Or "You know what Heroes of the Storm needs. Valve characters." That's because those games can be their own distinct crossovers without having to rely on pushing in other characters. It's only Smash Bros that must change. The point of Smash Bros was celebrating Nintendo's games and history. That's why you have ROB, a toy Nintendo made, in Smash Bros. To say it wasn't important is admission you weren't paying attention. Even when it comes to guest characters, its about who is close to Nintendo. Why do you think Sonic was the most popular guest character. Why was Megaman more popular than Resident Evil and Street Fighter despite the Megaman series having only 4 titles that have ever broken 1 million in sales. Why is Banjo, a character who has been dead for 10 years, a popular request? Hell, why do you think people were upset when Cloud was added?
Why should I really think Nintendo purists matter? They don't. They aren't the actual main fanbase. The main fanbase is people interested in gaming icons as well as having fun with characters. Characters sell. Including ones that are irrelevant to Nintendo. I just happen to entirely agree with Sakurai here that being Nintendo isn't important here. It actually wasn't ever a key factor in the way you think it was. The only reason it ever became Nintendo-related is because the characters were recognizable. The original game was the same mechanics but completely new characters. Iwata and Sakurai overall agreed it wouldn't sell well without recognizability. This is why the game is character driven.

Yes, we know some people think only the Nintendo characters are important. Sakurai doesn't. Nintendo clearly shows they don't care either by the fact they also agreed with Joker, who is not Nintendo-important at all. Your premise is clearly not what the game is. You need to accept that it's theme is actually "ultimate video game character crossover" now. Your point only held water with Smash 64 at best. Melee had 3rd party references, clearly showing that it didn't matter. The only reason some 3rd parties don't get in is because negotiations didn't work. You also have to remember that Microsoft gladly put the Halo Mash-Up pack on the Nintendo Switch version of Minecraft(never mind the Minecraft-themed 3DS). And Nintendo had no issues with it. This already proves that the whole "is irrelevant to Nintendo" thing isn't as big of a factor as people want it to be. It was never one. If Master Chief isn't getting in, which is probably the case, it's because they couldn't come up with a proper deal and maybe because Microsoft doesn't want to advertise their first party character in somebody else's first party game as more than a quick costume. And that's fine. They're still competition. Besides that, let's note that Nintendo has gotten nothing in particular out of the deal here. All of it is Microsoft advertising stuff/getting content. Besides sales, there's no unique deals we can see. We don't see any Microsoft content in Smash, meaning at this time, no known deal was given. Microsoft got exclusive content on the Nintendo systems. That's all that happened. It says a lot for other reasons; maybe the ridiculous console wars need to end? And even two competitors are laughing at the idea of console wars? Because seriously, they're dumb. Not even Sony has gotten over it and still strives to act like they matter. Not that console exclusive games are bad. There needs to be healthy competition too to avoid a monopoly. But all console wars do is create bad drama over nothing important.

The series being about Nintendo has been and still is there. Have you noticed more people decrying the guest characters. Use to be just little old me, but more people have been saying they aren't happy with the amount of guest characters or the ones they are adding have nothing to do with Nintendo. There aren't a lot, sure, but do you think that the number wouldn't grow if the entire fighter pass was third party characters? The issue is the identity of Smash, whether people (including Sakurai) want to admit it or not, is Nintendo. Having Smash become something else just turns into an amorphus blog that is unrecognizable. Consider this: if you were describing Smash, you might say "Oh, it's a Nintendo fighting game". But what about describing NuSmash? "Oh, it's a video game character fighting game." I'm sure characters from Grand Theft Auto, Red Dead Redemption, Witcher and Call of Duty will pop into folks head way faster than Persona and Castlevania. Regardless, the series becomes less distinct when you try to make it about something else.
Oh, no, some people won't get out of their bubbles. Big deal. Doesn't affect that Smash is now the ultimate video game character crossover(the actual goal of the series now). The narrative changed. It's still distinct by having characters that no other game would have in a specific gameplay style. Which is why it isn't comparable to MUGEN, the only other game with the same narrative(except not really, since MUGEN isn't a crossover in that sense. It's a game engine with one character that people are able to make characters for. It's fan-driven). Smash is the ultimate gaming crossover series(since pretty much Melee no less) that focuses on some fan-requested content, tons of gaming history(3rd party especially), and Nintendo content. They all mattered. Brawl was outright proof that the Nintendo-only narrative is not a key thing anymore.

Smash isn't a Nintendo fighting game. It's a Video Game All-Stars Fighting Game. That's significantly more accurate. And to be frank, I don't see any issues with those other suggestions either. They're all well known characters that have merits and could be in Smash. So what's the issue again?

I'll close off with this. What brought people to Smash was this celebration of Nintendo. It gave the series an identity and gave a roadmap to what can be added. It also allowed them to add unique characters like Wii Fit Trainer and ROB. When someone like me says that it's upsetting that they are ignoring Nintendo characters, its because the series losses what made it distinct and interesting. If they add a Nintendo character as a DLC, even if I wasn't interested in them, I might say "I don't know much about that series, but it's cool to see something from Nintendo's catalog in there." With Joker, it's "Oh, well I don't know anything about Joker, I don't have time to play Persona and I don't care about Atlus so I'll just avoid this character." At least if this character wasn't important to you, you can take solace in that it's a part of Nintendo's history or a popular character from their library. When it's non-Nintendo character it doesn't matter and the character was added because "why not." You can easily apply the "Soul vs Soulless" meme to Smash and NuSmash.
No, correctly, some people were interested in Nintendo content. Some were interested in the simplistic controls. Some got it for the gaming all-stars, including the 3rd parties. You know the best selling games are the ones with 3rd parties right? It's because the reality is with the exception of Bayonetta, every 3rd party is very highly recognizable. This means more people will want the game because there's more characters to recognize.

The 3rd party characters are unique too and got added along with many cool retro characters. They never once had an affect on this factor. Nothing has prevented Sakurai from adding retros/unique guys outside of development time. Don't blame 3rd parties for something they didn't do. They increased sales. Sakurai blatantly has shown that the purists are not the actual main people he's selling things to. Being that you're a Nintendo purist, you are not the target audience. And bar a reboot(maybe), you really need to accept the fact you never will be. If you want a pure Nintendo fighting game, go play Kart Fighter. It's far more Nintendo-only than Smash has been for over a decade now.
 

FancySmash

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I think the thing about third party characters is fine, but I'd prefer Nintendo have their own character affairs in order before going 100% third party for the DLC. We have characters like Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee, Impa, Toad/Captain Toad, Isaac, Waluigi, and more I'm probably not even thinking of, who are all Nintendo All Stars in their own right, who have been relegated to these backseat roles while more and more third parties enter the scene. Which... again, third party support is fine, but not at the expense of shunning your own properties. Realistically, a health balance is required, and if DLC is all third party, newcomers this time will look something like this...

1st: Inkling, Ridley, K. Rool, Isabelle, Incineroar, Piranha Plant
3rd: Simon, Richter, Ken, Joker, DLC #2, DLC #3, DLC #4, DLC # 5

With that, if DLC is truly third party, we're getting more third party characters in a game primarily made by Nintendo this time around. Now it is true that Smash has become a video game fighting crossover, but at heart, it's still a Nintendo game, and the third party are guests. For a Nintendo game to be more guests than home series... well, I begin to have a bit of a problem with that. Add on to that, Piranha Plant was a first party addition before other Nintendo All Stars, heck, before say Waluigi, Toad, and Geno, all requested characters from the Mario series.

All in all, there's no real issue with having these third party characters, but it'd help people to feel better if these third party characters were sprinkled in with first party characters. It'd help to satisfy players from both sides of the fence.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Reality is, even if the other 4 DLC characters are 3rd party, the game still has way more Nintendo characters. It will always have more home characters than guest series. Sakurai has also referred to AT's as guests, so they mean nothing in that regard. Despite that, some are 3rd party, some are 1st party. They're mixed.

...Geno is 100% 3rd party. He cannot be a 1st party addition. Doesn't matter what series he's from. What matters is who owns him.

Also, I can see why Waluigi or Toad wouldn't have gotten in before PP here. They already have major roles in the game. PP only had a sprite among a stage. He barely showed up in gameplay. He was likely made well after the other two did. Geno getting in before PP assumes negotiations went through. They clearly didn't. All he got was a Sticker. Square said no again. There's good reasons why PP is playable before any of those. He was the only feasible one. He may have even been decided on late into development. We don't know. Besides that, Sakurai has made it clear Toad works well as part of Peach's moveset. There's no reason to believe he was going to get another role. Captain Toad, a different character, might have a chance, at least, but he's not really as iconic as PP either(Toad is iconic, far more than the Captain who is a recent but not as well known character). He already had a preset role for Waluigi. He's made it clear before that some just aren't going to be playable. I highly doubt he was on the considerable table.

That leaves the only competition as Geno, who is 3rd party. I'm sure Sakurai tried, but couldn't get him. He might still be a DLC character for all we know. It might be that he only could get him as DLC so Square could make more money. Maybe there was too much to do and some were decided as DLC choices due to a lack of time. The game was rushed pretty badly, so this is a possibility.

PP being playable before any of those have some very logical reasons behind it. Being he was the only one that didn't have a preset role either that was impossible to work with. It makes a lot of sense. He was made a Bonus character because some might not like the idea of a generic enemy, regardless of its iconicness.
 

FancySmash

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Reality is, even if the other 4 DLC characters are 3rd party, the game still has way more Nintendo characters. It will always have more home characters than guest series. Sakurai has also referred to AT's as guests, so they mean nothing in that regard. Despite that, some are 3rd party, some are 1st party. They're mixed.

...Geno is 100% 3rd party. He cannot be a 1st party addition. Doesn't matter what series he's from. What matters is who owns him.

Also, I can see why Waluigi or Toad wouldn't have gotten in before PP here. They already have major roles in the game. PP only had a sprite among a stage. He barely showed up in gameplay. He was likely made well after the other two did. Geno getting in before PP assumes negotiations went through. They clearly didn't. All he got was a Sticker. Square said no again. There's good reasons why PP is playable before any of those. He was the only feasible one. He may have even been decided on late into development. We don't know. Besides that, Sakurai has made it clear Toad works well as part of Peach's moveset. There's no reason to believe he was going to get another role. Captain Toad, a different character, might have a chance, at least, but he's not really as iconic as PP either(Toad is iconic, far more than the Captain who is a recent but not as well known character). He already had a preset role for Waluigi. He's made it clear before that some just aren't going to be playable. I highly doubt he was on the considerable table.

That leaves the only competition as Geno, who is 3rd party. I'm sure Sakurai tried, but couldn't get him. He might still be a DLC character for all we know. It might be that he only could get him as DLC so Square could make more money. Maybe there was too much to do and some were decided as DLC choices due to a lack of time. The game was rushed pretty badly, so this is a possibility.

PP being playable before any of those have some very logical reasons behind it. Being he was the only one that didn't have a preset role either that was impossible to work with. It makes a lot of sense. He was made a Bonus character because some might not like the idea of a generic enemy, regardless of its iconicness.
Oh, I know Geno is third pary, but at the end of the day, he is a Mario character, so I included him as such. Regardless, it's not out of the ordinary for a character's role to change between games. Little Mac is telling of this, as he was an assist trophy in Brawl, and there's no reason he couldn't be updated this time around. Of course, Toad being in Peach's moveset means effectively nothing now thanks to Chrom. Scratch that, it'd make more sense than Chrom, as there are multiple Toads. There's no reason the Toad in Peach's moveset has to be the same as a hypothetical playable Toad.

Aside from that, when I think of Mario enemies, Goomba and Koopa Troopa come to mind before Piranha Plant, so even P. Plant's memorability is questionable. Remember, there's almost always a counter to any logic my good sir.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Oh, I know Geno is third pary, but at the end of the day, he is a Mario character, so I included him as such. Regardless, it's not out of the ordinary for a character's role to change between games. Little Mac is telling of this, as he was an assist trophy in Brawl, and there's no reason he couldn't be updated this time around. Of course, Toad being in Peach's moveset means effectively nothing now thanks to Chrom. Scratch that, it'd make more sense than Chrom, as there are multiple Toads. There's no reason the Toad in Peach's moveset has to be the same as a hypothetical playable Toad.

Aside from that, when I think of Mario enemies, Goomba and Koopa Troopa come to mind before Piranha Plant, so even P. Plant's memorability is questionable. Remember, there's almost always a counter to any logic my good sir.
PP also had limbs, and had presence in Smash earlier than Goomba or Koopa Troopa. He also had more ideas for making him playable. I'm sure the other two were considered, but he went with the one that worked out. I agree they're more iconic, but he is still iconic, eah.

Chrom isn't the same thing. It's just a quick Final Smash cutscene. He does nothing in regular gameplay at all otherwise. He has to be entirely removed from Peach's regular moveset to say he doesn't have a major role. Chrom is partial proof that being part of a moveset isn't a complete killer, but he's a cutscene move, not a major component of continuous play. Beforehand, Toad was nothing more than a single B move. Now he fully interacts in the throws as well. Chrom has nowhere near a similar role. That said, Robin's victory screens need updates because Chrom's responses do not make sense depending who they were fighting.

Like, I'm not saying Toad cannot be playable, but it would be really awkward with how integral they are to Peach and Daisy's gameplay now. They need to remove them wholesale to remove the confusion for who is actually in play or not. It's why when characters have stage roles, they're removed if possible if they don't have seriously strong roles within the stage. Tingle in Great Bay is easy to replace because it's a tiny role in comparison to others. The balloon is doable by anyone and doesn't take long to replace overall. It's a small part. It's equivalent to how much the Spirit Train stage uses Toon Link. This isn't the major role like Pauline has, or the big ones that Duck Hunt and Donkey Kong have on their retro stages. They're also sprites. For a similar reason, Mr. Game & Watch's stage has tons of Game & Watches on it in a different style that avoids the confusion. Right now, the Toads are strictly 3D models, not 2D sprites. They need to be removed because of how important they are to the moveset to avoid confusion. Chrom does not, because he isn't integral to Robin's regular moveset. Cutscenes have proven to be irrelevant to begin with. Zero Suit Samus turns into Samus in her Final Smash. See how it doesn't matter? In fact, I figured that it proved that Final Smashes had no bearing on playable characters if they're cutscene-based. It's why Chrom didn't weird me out being in, nor was I even surprised Chrom is still part of Robin's Final Smash. For the same reason, I don't consider Tom Nook disconfirmed either. If they're part of the regular moveset, sure. Final Smash? Irrelevant due to the change of mechanics. They never used to be Cutscene only, so they sometimes had more of a bearing on gameplay. Changes happened, perceptions did too.

What I meant is that Geno was in a different situation from the rest. He was not easily going to get in before any other Mario character because he's 3rd party. Sakurai probably did choose him before PP, but Square probably said "No". That's the end of that. They may have said no before during Brawl too, which explains "things didn't work out" as well. It sucks he isn't playable yet, but it still makes sense in the long run. For Square, they want money. It's a character from a game that is comparatively dead compared to their more active IP's. It makes sense for them to only agree with a lesser role. Money and all.
 

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Today, there are exactly 8 third-party licenses represented as fighters, in front of 24 Nintendo licenses. It's exactly 1/4. With the DLCs, there would be 12 or 13 third-party licenses represented as combatants in total, which becomes 1/3. There will always be twice more Nintendo licenses, which remains appreciable and identity.
 

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Today, there are exactly 8 third-party licenses represented as fighters, in front of 24 Nintendo licenses. It's exactly 1/4. With the DLCs, there would be 12 or 13 third-party licenses represented as combatants in total, which becomes 1/3. There will always be twice more Nintendo licenses, which remains appreciable and identity.
Exactly. To pretend 3rd parties are taking over Smash is ridiculous. It's still Nintendo-focused. 3rd parties are just their own important thing too.
 

GoodGrief741

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Today, there are exactly 8 third-party licenses represented as fighters, in front of 24 Nintendo licenses. It's exactly 1/4. With the DLCs, there would be 12 or 13 third-party licenses represented as combatants in total, which becomes 1/3. There will always be twice more Nintendo licenses, which remains appreciable and identity.
Thing is, the ratio of third party to first party newcomers trends bigger for each game. If it continues that way we’ll end up getting more third parties than first parties.

And that’s in a game with no cuts. Nintendo characters are seen as more expendable than third parties for cutting.

There’s also just a weirdness with selection. Obvious Nintendo characters like Spring Man and Rex don’t make the cut. Characters that by all means should have been included ages ago like Dee, Dixie, Waluigi, Toad et al are still MIA.

Hell, the things that we consider likely speak to that. Ask people about whether they feel confident in Sora’s Chances, or Lloyd Irving’s. Odds are you’ll get positive answers. On the other hand, you have a new and successful franchise like Splatoon, or Arms. Despite those franchises having viable and relevant villains and side characters (think DJ Octavio, Octoling, Ribbon Girl, Dr. Coyle) who by all accounts should be no-brainers, relatively speaking, I think you’d be hard-pressed to find people who are confident in those characters.

Like others have said, I love the inclusion of third party characters and have yet to see one whose inclusion I contest, but Nintendo needs to get its affairs in order before doubling down on the others. It’s a delicate balance and it feels like they’re missing it.
 

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I don't see how Smash could realistically be a crossover for all of gaming. There's way too many companies, franchises, and characters with way too many IP rights to get; how in the world would they be able to give even close to every potential third party character a fair shake? There's gotta be some limits on third parties; while I don't oppose third parties just because they're third party, I do set the bar much higher for third parties in terms of thinking that they ought to be in the game. This is a game published and commissioned by Nintendo, and the vast majority of its cast is from Nintendo-published games. Of course, it's easier to have more Nintendo characters because you don't have to pay for their licensing, but I think it's a bit more than that. If Nintendo didn't matter to Smash, they probably wouldn't care to include stuff like Earthbound, Ice Climber, Kid Icarus, F-Zero, and more (even series like Star Fox and Fire Emblem may be cast aside if they were just looking at the grand scheme of gaming).

It's called Super Smash Bros., not Super Nintendo Bros.
Umm...the name "Super Smash Bros." is a play on the name "Super Mario Bros." It's a pretty distinctly Nintendo-branded name.

The narrative is the "greatest crossover game in gaming history"
I mean, if you think MCU is the biggest cinematic crossover, that doesn't mean that they should cram a bunch of DC characters into it just because they're important to comics. If Playstation All-Stars was the biggest crossover game in gaming history, I'm not sure that Sony would necessarily put Mario, Pikachu, and Master Chief in it. Maybe they'd put a couple of those characters in it, but not so many that it'd overshadow their own IPs.

As for Piranha Plant, Sakurai wanted his wacky, out-there surprise character, but he also needed a free DLC character that wasn't too hard to make and that was recognizable enough to sell. PP was him trying to kill two birds with one stone (IMO he missed both birds).
 

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Umm...the name "Super Smash Bros." is a play on the name "Super Mario Bros." It's a pretty distinctly Nintendo-branded name.
Meaningless. It is not literally called Super Nintendo Bros. It's also still not a strict play on Super Mario Bros. either. It's called Super Smash Bros. because Smash is more of a reference to fighting in some way. Besides that, "Dragon King: The Fighting Game" isn't even the official name of what it would be. Research shows it was closer to just a beta name for the project instead. It would've probably been called the same thing. Also, why would it matter if it's a play on a Nintendo title when it's still a Nintendo title? It's just a good way to sell it. How does it mean anything beyond the fact it sounds like a fighting franchise? That's looking way too much into the name and ignoring the reason it even got that name; cause it worked. For that matter, it doesn't change the fact that it only became a Nintendo-related Fighter because they were sure it wouldn't sell with the original beta characters, who all were simple designs that were less defined versions of Falcon's model. It was entirely about recognizability. Nintendo had a ton of icons to use. So they used them. That's literally its origins. Not "because we can only focus on Nintendo". There was no idea around that they first intended to make a Nintendo character only fighter. It does not exist. It's not even the real premise of Smash 64. That was just a literal game design choice to help it sell. Of course saying "All-Stars" would sell it better. It's PR speak. That was the point of it.

Besides that, the whole All-Star thing is strictly specific to Smash 64. This is Melee's official Japanese title; Great Fray Smash Brothers Deluxe. The Super thing is strictly a translation that sounded better. And while it is true the first game does say Nintendo All-Star, it was the only one with purely Nintendo content, so it makes sense. It hasn't even had All-Star as part of the title since the first game proper. The series had to sell, and since the focus was to use recognizable Nintendo characters, it used the proper title at that time only.

Great Fray Smash Brothers X - Super Smash Bros. Brawl's Japanese Title
Great Fray Smash Brothers Special - Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's Japanese Title

The "Super" doesn't exist here. It's just a nice and easy to use title.

Sūpā Mario Burazāzu To note, this is the Japanese title of Super Mario Bros. It also translates to that. Notice how the Japanese version of the first Smash game doesn't have Super in it? That means that, no, it wasn't a play on that title in the Japanese version. The only thing that is correct is that it was called a Nintendo Fighter at first. That got dropped for a completely different official title, which is Great Fray, obviously a type of fighting thing.

I mean, if you think MCU is the biggest cinematic crossover, that doesn't mean that they should cram a bunch of DC characters into it just because they're important to comics. If Playstation All-Stars was the biggest crossover game in gaming history, I'm not sure that Sony would necessarily put Mario, Pikachu, and Master Chief in it. Maybe they'd put a couple of those characters in it, but not so many that it'd overshadow their own IPs.
When well over 50% will still be Nintendo? It will never overshadow it. Sakurai intends it to be the greatest crossover game-character game in gaming history. Yes, it does matter to put major gaming icons, no matter their origin, to achieve that. That's why he chose many 3rd parties who are huge gaming icons. Their origins wasn't their point. Their gaming history was. Bayonetta is the only one who didn't really fit that particular point. Nothing outshadows the fact it gets tons of Nintendo content each game and a significantly lesser amount of 3rd party content. Every time. And it didn't even get non-Nintendo content in the first game, with barely, what, 2 items at best in Melee(as two of them were meant to be from Rare properties strictly, and I don't mean DK-related stuff). Brawl didn't overshadow anything either.

Yeah, MCU is a bad example. Please find where the person behind it said they wanted to make it the biggest cinematic crossover in movie history, showing off as many franchises as possible. Because that would actually equivalent to what Sakurai is gunning for. Not that he can actually get that far, cause really, that's impossible. But he's doing very good in making an excellent fighting game crossover that shows off tons of gaming history.

You can't overshadow the fact it's Nintendo-focused with 3rd party guests. Sure, it's not exactly what the game is meant to be anymore, but it is still what it is. Nintendo is absolutely the focus. There is no reason it has to be for the paid DLC, though. That's irrelevant. There's a ton of possible DLC characters that have many reasons to be chosen. From a sales point, getting a ton of people to buy Smash and the Fighter's Pass that wouldn't normally would be the best move on Nintendo's part. Sakurai is also clear that people may not be happy with each choice, which means he knows the fan favorites can be easily mixed. He's well aware not every character will be popular. That doesn't make it remotely an issue either.

As for Piranha Plant, Sakurai wanted his wacky, out-there surprise character, but he also needed a free DLC character that wasn't too hard to make and that was recognizable enough to sell. PP was him trying to kill two birds with one stone (IMO he missed both birds).
He completely succeeded, really. He got an easy character that people can enjoy, an iconic one, but one that isn't part of the main paid for DLC. PP is the new Mewtwo, meant to get people interested in new ideas. It's why he isn't paid DLC right off the bat. It's a character that will easily get mixed reactions.
 

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He completely succeeded, really. He got an easy character that people can enjoy, an iconic one, but one that isn't part of the main paid for DLC. PP is the new Mewtwo, meant to get people interested in new ideas. It's why he isn't paid DLC right off the bat. It's a character that will easily get mixed reactions.
Err, I know you didn't intend it that way, but I can't in good faith say I see a piranha plant as essentially the same as arguably the most popular legendary Pokemon there is...
 

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Err, I know you didn't intend it that way, but I can't in good faith say I see a piranha plant as essentially the same as arguably the most popular legendary Pokemon there is...
To me, the point of Bonus DLC is to entice people and get them talking. PP succeeded in getting attention.

I do agree I could've worked that better. Mewtwo didn't have much mixed reactions, so that part was compared poorly. I know a few people who considered Mewtwo a pointless addition, but yeah. Regardless, I won't question obviously who is more popular, but I wasn't straight out comparing popularity.

But yeah, I understand the problematic part of what I said. Thanks for pointing it out.
 

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To me, the point of Bonus DLC is to entice people and get them talking. PP succeeded in getting attention.

I do agree I could've worked that better. Mewtwo didn't have much mixed reactions, so that part was compared poorly. I know a few people who considered Mewtwo a pointless addition, but yeah. Regardless, I won't question obviously who is more popular, but I wasn't straight out comparing popularity.

But yeah, I understand the problematic part of what I said. Thanks for pointing it out.
No problem, sorry if it came across as nitpicking.
 

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No problem, sorry if it came across as nitpicking.
Nah, you had a good point.

I wish people would point out stuff in the way you did. Respectfully but clear. It helps people think of stuff. Maybe I should ask you for help on ideas on my Brian thread. XD
 

SPEN18

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Sakurai intends it to be the greatest crossover game-character game in gaming history.
Idk about you, but I think that Smash would still be the biggest video game crossover in gaming history without a single third party. It doesn't need Joker, Simon Belmont, or even Sonic to beat out, for example, Playstation All-Stars or Marvel vs. Capcom.

Sūpā Mario Burazāzu To note, this is the Japanese title of Super Mario Bros. It also translates to that. Notice how the Japanese version of the first Smash game doesn't have Super in it? That means that, no, it wasn't a play on that title in the Japanese version. The only thing that is correct is that it was called a Nintendo Fighter at first. That got dropped for a completely different official title, which is Great Fray, obviously a type of fighting thing.
Okay sure, I don't speak Japanese so I can't argue effectively about the name. But in the end, the name probably doesn't matter much anyway.

Yeah, MCU is a bad example. Please find where the person behind it said they wanted to make it the biggest cinematic crossover in movie history, showing off as many franchises as possible. Because that would actually equivalent to what Sakurai is gunning for. Not that he can actually get that far, cause really, that's impossible. But he's doing very good in making an excellent fighting game crossover that shows off tons of gaming history.

You can't overshadow the fact it's Nintendo-focused with 3rd party guests. Sure, it's not exactly what the game is meant to be anymore, but it is still what it is. Nintendo is absolutely the focus. There is no reason it has to be for the paid DLC, though. That's irrelevant. There's a ton of possible DLC characters that have many reasons to be chosen. From a sales point, getting a ton of people to buy Smash and the Fighter's Pass that wouldn't normally would be the best move on Nintendo's part. Sakurai is also clear that people may not be happy with each choice, which means he knows the fan favorites can be easily mixed. He's well aware not every character will be popular. That doesn't make it remotely an issue either.
I'm not saying that Sakurai isn't trying to make Smash a representation of all of gaming, but rather that doing this is an unrealistic goal and that Smash is better suited to focusing on Nintendo franchises. And I don't know if they've come out and said it, but I'm sure that Marvel probably wants to make the MCU the biggest cinematic crossover. But either way, the point is not whether or not they actually do want that; it's that the MCU doesn't need to include DC characters in order to earn the "largest crossover" title, and if they simply want to include as many characters as possible, then they have plenty of Marvel ones to use before needing to dip into other companies. And besides, if you need other companies' properties to sell your DLC, then that's probably a bad sign. Characters like Dixie Kong and Waluigi would probably sell just fine; maybe they wouldn't sell nearly as spectacularly as Joker or Steve or whoever, but they'd probably still be profitable enough to be worth making, especially given the overpriced nature of DLC relative to the amount of content in the base game. I will concede that having a few third parties can help broaden the Switch's player base, which does help more people get exposed to the lesser-known Nintendo franchises, but I don't think that they need all or even a majority of the characters to be third party in order to achieve this. Of course, I'm not a marketer by any means, and regardless of those last few points I'm not here to point out what's most profitable for Nintendo. While I do think Sakurai's vision of Smash was much more Nintendo-focused in 64, Melee, and Brawl than it is now, he definitely does want to extend beyond Nintendo these days; however, I'm not sure if that's the direction that should be taken. Maybe I'm stuck in 2007, but third parties to me are guests, not necessarily essential pieces of the roster. Not that I think they should all be cut for new ones in the future, but they're not a core part of the roster for me.

And, as always, I hope that none of what I've said has come off as disrespectful, because that's not the intention!
 

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Idk about you, but I think that Smash would still be the biggest video game crossover in gaming history without a single third party. It doesn't need Joker, Simon Belmont, or even Sonic to beat out, for example, Playstation All-Stars or Marvel vs. Capcom.
How can it be the biggest gaming crossover if it's missing a crapload of gaming icons? That sounds inaccurate. Biggest Nintendo Crossover, sure. But definitely not the biggest gaming crossover. MUGEN outright holds that record already by far as is.

Okay sure, I don't speak Japanese so I can't argue effectively about the name. But in the end, the name probably doesn't matter much anyway.
It was just an easy to market name for the other regions. Great Fray Smash Bros. is pretty much the Japanese name overall. The whole Super part is effectively meaingless.

I'm not saying that Sakurai isn't trying to make Smash a representation of all of gaming, but rather that doing this is an unrealistic goal and that Smash is better suited to focusing on Nintendo franchises. And I don't know if they've come out and said it, but I'm sure that Marvel probably wants to make the MCU the biggest cinematic crossover. But either way, the point is not whether or not they actually do want that; it's that the MCU doesn't need to include DC characters in order to earn the "largest crossover" title, and if they simply want to include as many characters as possible, then they have plenty of Marvel ones to use before needing to dip into other companies. And besides, if you need other companies' properties to sell your DLC, then that's probably a bad sign. Characters like Dixie Kong and Waluigi would probably sell just fine; maybe they wouldn't sell nearly as spectacularly as Joker or Steve or whoever, but they'd probably still be profitable enough to be worth making, especially given the overpriced nature of DLC relative to the amount of content in the base game. I will concede that having a few third parties can help broaden the Switch's player base, which does help more people get exposed to the lesser-known Nintendo franchises, but I don't think that they need all or even a majority of the characters to be third party in order to achieve this. Of course, I'm not a marketer by any means, and regardless of those last few points I'm not here to point out what's most profitable for Nintendo. While I do think Sakurai's vision of Smash was much more Nintendo-focused in 64, Melee, and Brawl than it is now, he definitely does want to extend beyond Nintendo these days; however, I'm not sure if that's the direction that should be taken. Maybe I'm stuck in 2007, but third parties to me are guests, not necessarily essential pieces of the roster. Not that I think they should all be cut for new ones in the future, but they're not a core part of the roster for me.
Some of these options also have issues. Dixie was intended, but she couldn't be in Brawl due to her mechanics not working. You might notice how no moveset has severely changed at any point among the series. He probably doesn't want to change her up.

We don't know what's with Waluigi. Keep in mind Sakurai is still being employed to make these games. Waluigi is first party, but Nintendo has knowingly refused to let him in any mainline games. It can be as simple as them not thinking he should be in, so Sakurai has to comply. It should be made clear that he doesn't have hard veto power on everything. He is given a lot of it due to respect and trust for him.

I get why you think the game should be less focused on 3rd parties. It's one thing to accept it's not entirely Nintendo-focused. That's the point I was making. Yeah, it definitely isn't going to be Nintendo-focused entirely. That said, the point wasn't to like the direction it was going. Just to understand why it makes sense. Agreeing isn't the same thing as acceptance, really.

Also, I'd say Sakurai has been keeping up with the goal extremely well. Literally the only series with as much crossover power is MUGEN, a game engine that is fan-related moreso than officially made characters in the same way. Smash is the only gaming crossover game anywhere close to that level, and so far, it feels like an amazing series that has a ton of great gaming legends, while still being mostly Nintendo(as is reasonable, since it did still start as a Nintendo fighter, though many obviously didn't know that it wasn't as simple as wanting it to be Nintendo-focused). I won't pretend the knowledge of its origins is common knowledge either. It's obvious why people think it's meant to be a Nintendo Fighter too. It's not easy to know a lot about this. I'm just glad Sakurai and Iwata explained its origins better. Hell, I didn't even know the All-Star thing was removed entirely as of Melee alone. I found out a lot of stuff later. I'm actually quite happy it wasn't just purely meant to be "Nintendo Fighter: The Game" too. That said, I can fully understand why people think every 3rd party should have a large Nintendo history. I get it. Mind you, I never had that mindset either. My first actual created roster had characters like MetalGreymon, who debuted outside of Nintendo as is(mostly PlayStation related), same with Diablos, Sonic, Knuckles. I also had MegaMan on there as well as Garland(Final Fantasy 1) among many others. Coincidentally many got in, or referenced in some way.

And, as always, I hope that none of what I've said has come off as disrespectful, because that's not the intention!
I never got that image from you at all. I fully get nostalgia. I mean, come on, I'm a Quest 64 fan. We got nothing but nostalgia. XD
 

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I mean, when you have a ballot, and include very few of the characters in the ballot, but end up making all or most of the DLC third party, you’re kind of not thinking of financial gain, I think.

Like, sure, maybe characters like Simon and Bayonetta placed decently on the ballot like Sakurai claims, but I have a hard time believing he didn’t have to dip into the top 25 or maybe even top 50 to find them.

If Nintendo thinks third parties sell DLC, and Switches, fair enough, that’s true, but at this point they have to be idiots to think somebody like Waluigi wouldn’t sell the same. If they had made K. Rool or Ridley DLC for Smash 4 I guarantee he would have been the best selling.
 

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I mean, when you have a ballot, and include very few of the characters in the ballot, but end up making all or most of the DLC third party, you’re kind of not thinking of financial gain, I think.

Like, sure, maybe characters like Simon and Bayonetta placed decently on the ballot like Sakurai claims, but I have a hard time believing he didn’t have to dip into the top 25 or maybe even top 50 to find them.

If Nintendo thinks third parties sell DLC, and Switches, fair enough, that’s true, but at this point they have to be idiots to think somebody like Waluigi wouldn’t sell the same. If they had made K. Rool or Ridley DLC for Smash 4 I guarantee he would have been the best selling.
Sakurai implied Chrom and Dark Samus were there too. But it wasn't Simon that placed well on the ballot. It was Castlevania in general(he didn't specify content or character). He knew that the Belmonts were more known than Alucard as well as would sell better overall. Both of them are popular depending the region. That's why he chose them, because of their ballot presence.

Also, if leaks are to be believed, Nintendo didn't really see Isaac as important. I doubt that, to be honest. Him being in a currently inactive franchise just probably made him low priority and that was that. Which fits the current Sakurai narrative/what he's said so far.

Bayonetta absolutely placed well, but as we know from datamines, she was in the game's data literally in a patch that come out two weeks after the ballot. Realistically, she was already put in the game(not necessarily as playable, but Sakurai definitely wanted her in before the ballot). She placed well on the ballot, but it likely didn't affect her being playable too. It's hard to say, since she might've only been an AT at the time of the ballot starting, and had her data moved over to the Playable Character area after the ballot showed she was popular enough to warrant it. Though realistically, she was probably already licensed to be playable before that). That said, he never said she won the ballot or was chosen because of it, she just did really well on it. The problem is we lacked context on who actually was chosen by the ballot at that point, so it was the logical conclusion to come to, that Bayonetta was the ballot choice for DLC. Though the fact he said "we may consider turning this character into DLC" should've been a red flag. Also, I think he mentioned that he had tons of requests for Cloud before the ballot, so he couldn't even be the winner because he was never noted being from the ballot necessarily.

Besides, the Inklings were likely from the ballot as well. Ridley possibly too. Isabelle also might fit the narrative well. Most of the new roster seems easily like fan requests to begin with. Richter and Simon, as noted, were a unique addition of "they requested Casltevania" specifically. They are pretty much the mascots at this point, so they were the obvious choice. It's like how Lloyd Irving or Cloud is for their franchises. Or Marth is, if you want a more blatant example.

Also, I don't see the issue here. The problem with many of these 1st party characters is that they either are unfeasible(Sakurai might not know how to make Dixie work with her Brawl idea removed. Sure, an echo or semi-clone sounds fine, but that isn't what he wanted. He's stubborn. For him, it's quite possible it's "team character or bust". He still has Falcondorf after all. No character has changed their original design thus far to any extreme degree. They're all tweaks. It's why Toon Link and Young Link are clearly different characters, just with the same basic role. They don't play remotely the same, despite both originating as a clone of Link in some way. I could go on. Anyway, you also have to remember that DLC is going to sell to people outside of the Nintendo fanbase. With Sakurai intentionally trying to make this a gaming crossover of major game characters, he cannot sell on Nintendo nostalgia alone. That isn't enough. For the Fighter's Pass, people are paying a lot of money. These particular characters need to be recognizable.

Waluigi's issues is he can't be easily created by using other assets. Combined with many of his appearances rarely giving him his own thing and that requires a lot of time and ideas. It's as simple as Sakurai not sure of how to implement him as playable. He clearly had ideas for PP(which is more known than Waluigi, though not by much. He's from the games that were played more in the long run. PP appears in more games than Waluigi too, so that's important to note). For the record, I do like Waluigi more. But I can see in this case why they'd choose a more iconic character for a Bonus DLC. Besides that, Waluigi being an AT is probably what he'll stay as, and Sakurai feels AT's are adequate representation of characters. He's updated many to be even better than before, more engaging, being able to count as KO markers, etc. So him not upgrading Waluigi means... he already respects the character and wants to give those with no actual role or barely a "Sticker" a chance too. There's tons of characters that aren't in Ultimate, or an AT, etc. that are plausible. 3rd party or otherwise. Even if it's all 3rd party, they're all going to be big guns to make the game bigger than ever. Not that it changes how huge of a Nintendo Crossover + Guests it still is(despite it not being the proper narrative, it's still an accurate description).
 

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I mean, when you have a ballot, and include very few of the characters in the ballot, but end up making all or most of the DLC third party, you’re kind of not thinking of financial gain, I think.

Like, sure, maybe characters like Simon and Bayonetta placed decently on the ballot like Sakurai claims, but I have a hard time believing he didn’t have to dip into the top 25 or maybe even top 50 to find them.

If Nintendo thinks third parties sell DLC, and Switches, fair enough, that’s true, but at this point they have to be idiots to think somebody like Waluigi wouldn’t sell the same. If they had made K. Rool or Ridley DLC for Smash 4 I guarantee he would have been the best selling.
It is possible to get something you didn't know you wanted, as is the case with Simon, Duck Hunt, and just about any obscure retro character. If nothing else, it shows that Sakurai knows the impact each character brings. The fact that out of a cast of 76 characters only a few are more or less universally disliked (Roy, Young Link, Dark Pit*, Lucina* Bayonetta*, Pichu*) is astounding. Also keep in mind that we don't know everything about the ballot as the sample size is undoubtedly much larger than what we've been able to pull together.

*No one seems to hate these characters anymore.
 

SPEN18

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Sakurai implied Chrom and Dark Samus were there too. But it wasn't Simon that placed well on the ballot. It was Castlevania in general(he didn't specify content or character). He knew that the Belmonts were more known than Alucard as well as would sell better overall. Both of them are popular depending the region. That's why he chose them, because of their ballot presence.

Also, if leaks are to be believed, Nintendo didn't really see Isaac as important. I doubt that, to be honest. Him being in a currently inactive franchise just probably made him low priority and that was that. Which fits the current Sakurai narrative/what he's said so far.

Bayonetta absolutely placed well, but as we know from datamines, she was in the game's data literally in a patch that come out two weeks after the ballot. Realistically, she was already put in the game(not necessarily as playable, but Sakurai definitely wanted her in before the ballot). She placed well on the ballot, but it likely didn't affect her being playable too. It's hard to say, since she might've only been an AT at the time of the ballot starting, and had her data moved over to the Playable Character area after the ballot showed she was popular enough to warrant it. Though realistically, she was probably already licensed to be playable before that). That said, he never said she won the ballot or was chosen because of it, she just did really well on it. The problem is we lacked context on who actually was chosen by the ballot at that point, so it was the logical conclusion to come to, that Bayonetta was the ballot choice for DLC. Though the fact he said "we may consider turning this character into DLC" should've been a red flag. Also, I think he mentioned that he had tons of requests for Cloud before the ballot, so he couldn't even be the winner because he was never noted being from the ballot necessarily.

Besides, the Inklings were likely from the ballot as well. Ridley possibly too. Isabelle also might fit the narrative well. Most of the new roster seems easily like fan requests to begin with. Richter and Simon, as noted, were a unique addition of "they requested Casltevania" specifically. They are pretty much the mascots at this point, so they were the obvious choice. It's like how Lloyd Irving or Cloud is for their franchises. Or Marth is, if you want a more blatant example.
I actually disagree with the idea that any of the newcomers were primarily from the ballot, with the exception of K. Rool.

I hesitate to call any Echoes true fan characters, as they likely never would have made it in without being easy clones. Plus the ones we got were probably not all that high up on the ballot; they certainly got some votes but were probably well below other characters.
Castlevania feels more like a Sakurai nostalgia pick to me than a fan pick. Of course, it gets a bit tricky to judge whether Simon was picked from the ballot or not because we don't know how negotiations went. But a handful of third parties like Banjo, Geno, and Rayman almost certainly placed higher than any Castlevania characters combined based on everything I've seen; I feel like Sakurai could've gotten at least one of these if he really wanted to pick a third party from the ballot, although again it is tricky to discern.
Inklings were a shoe-in even without a single ballot vote.
Ridley, according to most of the data we have, didn't have that stellar of a performance on the ballot, and indeed him being a stage boss combined with the perception that the ballot was just for DLC hurt him a lot. Of course, Ridley definitely did have a lot of fan support, but I'm not convinced that he got in primarily because of that. Really, the only thing holding him back has been feasibility issues, so if those were resolved, then what you have left is an incredibly iconic and recognizable villain from a significant and popular franchise that only had two versions of Samus for representation. And I'm also not convinced that the feasibility issues were resolved just because of the fan demand; Sakurai could have viewed it as a personal challenge to finally make Ridley, or he could have just come up with the idea of using a model similar to his NES sprite, which wasn't nearly as big compared to Samus as some of his later appearances. Alternatively, he could have just been thinking in the shower one day and happened to come up with a way to make Ridley work.
Isabelle is a popular character but probably not within the circles that made up the bulk of the ballot voters. You could argue that there were a large number of "casual" voters who were more likely to vote for her, but based on the surprisingly low number of votes (less than 2 million) and the fact that they probably couldn't parse all the repeated votes (though they seem to have tried), I don't think that this was the case. Among Smash fans, she's only modestly popular.
Incineroar we know filled a slot that was specifically set aside for a Pokémon from Gen 7. So not a fan pick.
As for Piranha Plant...yeah, we're done here.

Edit:
It is possible to get something you didn't know you wanted, as is the case with Simon, Duck Hunt, and just about any obscure retro character. If nothing else, it shows that Sakurai knows the impact each character brings. The fact that out of a cast of 76 characters only a few are more or less universally disliked (Roy, Young Link, Dark Pit*, Lucina* Bayonetta*, Pichu*) is astounding. Also keep in mind that we don't know everything about the ballot as the sample size is undoubtedly much larger than what we've been able to pull together.

*No one seems to hate these characters anymore.
I mean, yes it is possible to be surprised and also like the surprise. I don't think that most people are arguing for 100% fan picks. But the fact is that many people feel like they were asked explicitly what they wanted and Nintendo barely listened. I don't think there would be nearly as much complaint if we had gotten a couple more bonafide fan characters like Banjo, Geno, Isaac, Waluigi, etc.

Also, I don't think Roy is universally disliked, or anywhere close to it. Sure, most of his popularity probably stems from Smash rather than his actual game (but come on, in Binding Blade you have to drag his unpromoted rear through most of the game along with his pitiful 5 Move and mediocre stats, so it's amazing that he's not universally hated).
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I actually disagree with the idea that any of the newcomers were primarily from the ballot, with the exception of K. Rool.
Sakurai literally said he got Chrom and Dark Samus due to fan requests. It's likely they were from the ballot. Not to say easy clones aren't part of it, though. Castlevania was a ballot choice. He made that absolutely clear. That's how he chose Simon and Richter. All of the choices make sense from the ballot in some way. Though Ridley and Isabelle could be the only two that weren't from it besides Ken at best. Inineroar is impossible to be from the ballot, since he didn't exist yet.

I hesitate to call any Echoes true fan characters, as they likely never would have made it in without being easy clones. Plus the ones we got were probably not all that high up on the ballot; they certainly got some votes but were probably well below other characters.
Castlevania feels more like a Sakurai nostalgia pick to me than a fan pick. Of course, it gets a bit tricky to judge whether Simon was picked from the ballot or not because we don't know how negotiations went. But a handful of third parties like Banjo, Geno, and Rayman almost certainly placed higher than any Castlevania characters combined based on everything I've seen; I feel like Sakurai could've gotten at least one of these if he really wanted to pick a third party from the ballot, although again it is tricky to discern.
Inklings were a shoe-in even without a single ballot vote.
Ridley, according to most of the data we have, didn't have that stellar of a performance on the ballot, and indeed him being a stage boss combined with the perception that the ballot was just for DLC hurt him a lot. Of course, Ridley definitely did have a lot of fan support, but I'm not convinced that he got in primarily because of that. Really, the only thing holding him back has been feasibility issues, so if those were resolved, then what you have left is an incredibly iconic and recognizable villain from a significant and popular franchise that only had two versions of Samus for representation. And I'm also not convinced that the feasibility issues were resolved just because of the fan demand; Sakurai could have viewed it as a personal challenge to finally make Ridley, or he could have just come up with the idea of using a model similar to his NES sprite, which wasn't nearly as big compared to Samus as some of his later appearances. Alternatively, he could have just been thinking in the shower one day and happened to come up with a way to make Ridley work.
Isabelle is a popular character but probably not within the circles that made up the bulk of the ballot voters. You could argue that there were a large number of "casual" voters who were more likely to vote for her, but based on the surprisingly low number of votes (less than 2 million) and the fact that they probably couldn't parse all the repeated votes (though they seem to have tried), I don't think that this was the case. Among Smash fans, she's only modestly popular.
Incineroar we know filled a slot that was specifically set aside for a Pokémon from Gen 7. So not a fan pick.
As for Piranha Plant...yeah, we're done here.
I forgot to mention Incineroar was an exception, but the rest, yeah. PP I never said was a fan pick. If I implied he was from the ballot, my bad. I meant base roster only(and I forgot to disclude Inceinroar). The rest are very easily fan favorite characters though.

We don't have any official ballot data. Fan polls online are not a strong indicative of what happened. There's too many variables. We know this; Castlevania scored high on the ballot(and he chose those two based upon this factor), King K. Rool was high on the ballot(he chose him due to this), Bayonetta was high on the ballot(datamines imply he did not choose her due to this, but he did mention her presence despite it not being possibly the reason for a choice), and he has implied Dark Samus and Chrom were ballot picks by calling them highly requested characters. Only two are a straight implication they scored high on the ballot. Three were chosen because of the ballot. One relates to the ballot in a different way. Inklings were very popular, same with characters like Isabelle. Them possibly being related to the ballot(though not entirely chosen by it) is possible.

Ridley is an odd one. The thing is, there's no doubt he was requested from the ballot. How much is unknown, though. That may have been part of why Sakurai finally worked the hardest he could to get him in. Fan requests absolutely were why he did get in. Whether or not it was ballot-based is unknown. Overall, my point is that of the 11 characters, all of them could be partially(and a few are at least fully) ballot requested. They're all fan-favorites bar Incineroar, and he's highly popular right now too, so that worked out, just like with Greninja. Both Pokemon were kind of lucky in that regard, and became fan favorites anyway, just not chosen cause of that.

I definitely said a lot of things wrong, so thank you for noting the Incineroar and PP stuff I said. My bad.
 

GoodGrief741

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Sakurai implied Chrom and Dark Samus were there too. But it wasn't Simon that placed well on the ballot. It was Castlevania in general(he didn't specify content or character). He knew that the Belmonts were more known than Alucard as well as would sell better overall. Both of them are popular depending the region. That's why he chose them, because of their ballot presence.

Also, if leaks are to be believed, Nintendo didn't really see Isaac as important. I doubt that, to be honest. Him being in a currently inactive franchise just probably made him low priority and that was that. Which fits the current Sakurai narrative/what he's said so far.

Bayonetta absolutely placed well, but as we know from datamines, she was in the game's data literally in a patch that come out two weeks after the ballot. Realistically, she was already put in the game(not necessarily as playable, but Sakurai definitely wanted her in before the ballot). She placed well on the ballot, but it likely didn't affect her being playable too. It's hard to say, since she might've only been an AT at the time of the ballot starting, and had her data moved over to the Playable Character area after the ballot showed she was popular enough to warrant it. Though realistically, she was probably already licensed to be playable before that). That said, he never said she won the ballot or was chosen because of it, she just did really well on it. The problem is we lacked context on who actually was chosen by the ballot at that point, so it was the logical conclusion to come to, that Bayonetta was the ballot choice for DLC. Though the fact he said "we may consider turning this character into DLC" should've been a red flag. Also, I think he mentioned that he had tons of requests for Cloud before the ballot, so he couldn't even be the winner because he was never noted being from the ballot necessarily.

Besides, the Inklings were likely from the ballot as well. Ridley possibly too. Isabelle also might fit the narrative well. Most of the new roster seems easily like fan requests to begin with. Richter and Simon, as noted, were a unique addition of "they requested Casltevania" specifically. They are pretty much the mascots at this point, so they were the obvious choice. It's like how Lloyd Irving or Cloud is for their franchises. Or Marth is, if you want a more blatant example.

Also, I don't see the issue here. The problem with many of these 1st party characters is that they either are unfeasible(Sakurai might not know how to make Dixie work with her Brawl idea removed. Sure, an echo or semi-clone sounds fine, but that isn't what he wanted. He's stubborn. For him, it's quite possible it's "team character or bust". He still has Falcondorf after all. No character has changed their original design thus far to any extreme degree. They're all tweaks. It's why Toon Link and Young Link are clearly different characters, just with the same basic role. They don't play remotely the same, despite both originating as a clone of Link in some way. I could go on. Anyway, you also have to remember that DLC is going to sell to people outside of the Nintendo fanbase. With Sakurai intentionally trying to make this a gaming crossover of major game characters, he cannot sell on Nintendo nostalgia alone. That isn't enough. For the Fighter's Pass, people are paying a lot of money. These particular characters need to be recognizable.

Waluigi's issues is he can't be easily created by using other assets. Combined with many of his appearances rarely giving him his own thing and that requires a lot of time and ideas. It's as simple as Sakurai not sure of how to implement him as playable. He clearly had ideas for PP(which is more known than Waluigi, though not by much. He's from the games that were played more in the long run. PP appears in more games than Waluigi too, so that's important to note). For the record, I do like Waluigi more. But I can see in this case why they'd choose a more iconic character for a Bonus DLC. Besides that, Waluigi being an AT is probably what he'll stay as, and Sakurai feels AT's are adequate representation of characters. He's updated many to be even better than before, more engaging, being able to count as KO markers, etc. So him not upgrading Waluigi means... he already respects the character and wants to give those with no actual role or barely a "Sticker" a chance too. There's tons of characters that aren't in Ultimate, or an AT, etc. that are plausible. 3rd party or otherwise. Even if it's all 3rd party, they're all going to be big guns to make the game bigger than ever. Not that it changes how huge of a Nintendo Crossover + Guests it still is(despite it not being the proper narrative, it's still an accurate description).
Besides agreeing with SPEN18 SPEN18 on the fact that, bar K. Rool and possibly Ridley, we’d have gotten the exact same roster without the ballot, I have a few other points.

There’s a huge problem with holding a ballot and announcing a characters as its winner when she would’ve been in regardless. While not entirely untrue, it’s at least dishonest. (That is, if Bayonetta was even close to winning the ballot)

Piranha Plant being more iconic than Waluigi is like saying that a table is more iconic than Darth Vader because more people are bound to recognize the concept of tables. Regardless, I’m pretty sure less people recognize Piranha Plant than Waluigi anyways.

The idea that some characters are unfeasible is one I resent. I don’t see it as impossible, but Sakurai really needs to step up his game if he can’t think up a moveset for a character like Dixie Kong or Waluigi. The guy’s great but as time went on he’s gotten worse and worse at coming up with movesets, it appears. If he truly can’t conceive a moveset for, say, Toad, then he’s either not trying or he should retire. The fact that it took Ridley one of the largest fanbases to get Sakurai to consider maybe shrinking him and see what happens is embarrassing.

Likewise, if characters like Isaac and Geno, despite loud fanbases, didn’t get in because they’re from dormant games, then that just speaks to a very myopic and close-minded vision for a game. I know Sakurai wants to make the ultimate game crossover and I’m all for it, but if that vision comes at the expense of Nintendo representation and what fans want, then I can’t say it’s the right decision. There seems to be a widening gap between what Sakurai wants Smash to be and what the fans want it to be, and if it isn’t closed the series might be in for a rocky future.

It is possible to get something you didn't know you wanted, as is the case with Simon, Duck Hunt, and just about any obscure retro character. If nothing else, it shows that Sakurai knows the impact each character brings. The fact that out of a cast of 76 characters only a few are more or less universally disliked (Roy, Young Link, Dark Pit*, Lucina* Bayonetta*, Pichu*) is astounding. Also keep in mind that we don't know everything about the ballot as the sample size is undoubtedly much larger than what we've been able to pull together.

*No one seems to hate these characters anymore.
I’m all for characters I didn’t know I wanted, but I also think characters I did know I want are cool. And I much prefer those to characters I did know I didn’t want.

I also find it surprising that you didn’t mention Corrin, Incineroar or Piranha Plant on your universally disliked list, I would’ve started there.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Besides agreeing with SPEN18 SPEN18 on the fact that, bar K. Rool and possibly Ridley, we’d have gotten the exact same roster without the ballot, I have a few other points.
No we wouldn't have. Castlevania characters were chosen because of the ballot. Dark Samus and Chrom have been implied, so they may not have been either. Ridley might not be because of the ballot.

The idea that some characters are unfeasible is one I resent. I don’t see it as impossible, but Sakurai really needs to step up his game if he can’t think up a moveset for a character like Dixie Kong or Waluigi. The guy’s great but as time went on he’s gotten worse and worse at coming up with movesets, it appears. If he truly can’t conceive a moveset for, say, Toad, then he’s either not trying or he should retire. The fact that it took Ridley one of the largest fanbases to get Sakurai to consider maybe shrinking him and see what happens is embarrassing.
Again, we don't know why Waluigi is not in. Daisy got in first strictly cause she was an easy clone. Otherwise, she wouldn't even be in. She didn't have anything over Waluigi beyond "quick addition", something he lacks. He wasn't going to magically get in. Notice how he isn't in a single mainline game? There's a pretty reasonable chance some of it can be Nintendo not wanting him in big roles. They're still in a lot more control than people think. Sakurai can only do as much as he's allowed to do.

Also, the problem with Dixie is he hasn't had a new fun idea for her. She was going to be a tag team with Diddy in Brawl, but the mechanics didn't work. He couldn't make the team function right. Diddy worked overall, but he also was workable as alone because he was a bigger character than Dixie. This means that he hasn't thought up something new that works for Dixie. Yet. It's very possible he doesn't want to abandon his idea to have her as a tag team character. Sakurai doesn't tend to abandon ideas easily. There's a reason why almost no character has had very extreme moveset overhauls. Sheik and Zelda, despite separated, play as they normally did, just with tweaks. Link is the same way. Same with pretty much everybody else. Ganondorf is still clearly based upon Falcon, but with more changes. Luigi borrows from Mario to this day. Etc. He's stubborn, so he's not having an issue coming up with her moveset it seems. It seems more he doesn't want to abandon what he believes is best for her. Very different situation.

Toad has a role that actually befits what he does most of the time. He absolutely could be playable, but he gave him a very active role in Peach(and Daisy's movesets). Him being playable would be nice, but this is still a huge upgrade that a simple shield that was easily replaceable. Now he's acting something unique and it works fine. It's strange on Daisy, yeah, but considering she's using a Toad that's more or less a quick player stand-in in the NSMB games, it kind of fits. Since those are just secondary and less important characters in comparison, just like Daisy. I'm surprised she doesn't use the Yellow Toad instead, really. You also have to think of what makes Toad stand out from everybody else. What unique ability can he do that nobody else can? Reality is, he doesn't do a lot of unique stuff in the Mario series that nobody else does. Waluigi even does more, with his air swimming, so even he sounds more unique in reality. And Captain Toad is obviously a different character, and works very very differently in both designs and abilities. Either it's a matter of his "no jumping" being too important and cannot be removed(Sakurai does make Sonic not unable to truly swim, as he drowns with his animations immediately and takes damage, so he definitely does care about things that are integral to characters. Not to say he can't ignore them, of course), or he had no idea how to balance him and make him fun and unique. Taking a look at the current 11 characters, he had few to work with as is, and even removing the echoes, he had little time to make a ton of unique fun additions.

Basically? Being iconic isn't going to make you stick out alone. That works for making 3rd party options great. But it doesn't build you a moveset. He's having trouble with some movesets because those characters don't have extremely unique abilities that are consistently shown. I've seen the Toad movesets. They're cool. But they're highly fan-made and have nothing to do with his legitimate abilities.

Likewise, if characters like Isaac and Geno, despite loud fanbases, didn’t get in because they’re from dormant games, then that just speaks to a very myopic and close-minded vision for a game. I know Sakurai wants to make the ultimate game crossover and I’m all for it, but if that vision comes at the expense of Nintendo representation and what fans want, then I can’t say it’s the right decision. There seems to be a widening gap between what Sakurai wants Smash to be and what the fans want it to be, and if it isn’t closed the series might be in for a rocky future.
Geno is not a Nintendo representative in that way. He's a 3rd party Square character from a 3rd party game that happens to be a Mario game. Really, people need to remember that if Geno isn't getting in, it means Square wasn't able to come to an agreement with anyone. It's more on Square here. Not Sakurai. Sakurai has made it clear he's tried to get him playable. The fact he couldn't means negotiations fell through. It could potentially be Nintendo, but why are people even blaming Sakurai when he's outright said he wants him playable? He's also spoken nothing on playability for some characters, including Toad. It's possible he didn't really consider him. And I can't blame him either. Toad being an icon doesn't make him a feasible character. Him having abilities that make him fun to play as does. Where's these unique abilities that other characters cannot do? Captain Toad, yes, but that's a different guy(even if it was the same person to begin with, they don't share similar abilities regardless and would have to be different characters to work). Toad could have a Captain costume, but it doesn't change that they're about as similar as Samus and Zero Suit Samus. They share some traits, but have very different abilities, weapons, etc.
 

Flyboy

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How many times do I have to mention that bringing back the veterans was what the ballot was used for?

Every fan poll had ****ing Wolf and the Ice Climbers on it at the time for some reason and that's why the big focus was on bringing back every single character. Then you have Chrom, Bayo, Ridley, K. Rool, "Castlevania" (and don't you dare imply people weren't voting for Simon because he was my biggest Smash 4 DLC want along with Travis Touchdown and Bayonetta), "Final Fantasy" (Represented by Cloud), and Dark Samus. That's, what, thirteen characters brought in because of the ballot plus some fun extras like Ryu, Ken, Incineroar, and Plant. C'mon son.

Plus, when running any kind of poll generally speaking you're gonna get enough votes within the first few days to start leaning a certain way with your plan of action, hence why the first characters worked on were returning veterans and Bayo because those were popular picks at the time.

This narrative exhausts me.
 
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SPEN18

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I think the veterans would have all come back regardless of the ballot, though. While everyone vet probably had some votes, many of them didn't get that many, such as Pokémon Trainer, Young Link, and Pichu. And really, all vets coming back was the product of a very unique situation in which the new console came out right on the heels of Smash 4 and happened to not be very technologically ahead of the Wii U in many respects; this allowed for them to more easily bring back old content. Sakurai himself said that all the vets coming back would not have happened if they started from scratch. They could have easily just brought back Wolf, ICs, and maybe Snake and then called it a day. Overall, they only "used" the ballot when it benefitted them and mentioned its role whenever it benefitted them (like with Bayonetta).
 

GoodGrief741

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No we wouldn't have. Castlevania characters were chosen because of the ballot. Dark Samus and Chrom have been implied, so they may not have been either. Ridley might not be because of the ballot.


Again, we don't know why Waluigi is not in. Daisy got in first strictly cause she was an easy clone. Otherwise, she wouldn't even be in. She didn't have anything over Waluigi beyond "quick addition", something he lacks. He wasn't going to magically get in. Notice how he isn't in a single mainline game? There's a pretty reasonable chance some of it can be Nintendo not wanting him in big roles. They're still in a lot more control than people think. Sakurai can only do as much as he's allowed to do.

Also, the problem with Dixie is he hasn't had a new fun idea for her. She was going to be a tag team with Diddy in Brawl, but the mechanics didn't work. He couldn't make the team function right. Diddy worked overall, but he also was workable as alone because he was a bigger character than Dixie. This means that he hasn't thought up something new that works for Dixie. Yet. It's very possible he doesn't want to abandon his idea to have her as a tag team character. Sakurai doesn't tend to abandon ideas easily. There's a reason why almost no character has had very extreme moveset overhauls. Sheik and Zelda, despite separated, play as they normally did, just with tweaks. Link is the same way. Same with pretty much everybody else. Ganondorf is still clearly based upon Falcon, but with more changes. Luigi borrows from Mario to this day. Etc. He's stubborn, so he's not having an issue coming up with her moveset it seems. It seems more he doesn't want to abandon what he believes is best for her. Very different situation.

Toad has a role that actually befits what he does most of the time. He absolutely could be playable, but he gave him a very active role in Peach(and Daisy's movesets). Him being playable would be nice, but this is still a huge upgrade that a simple shield that was easily replaceable. Now he's acting something unique and it works fine. It's strange on Daisy, yeah, but considering she's using a Toad that's more or less a quick player stand-in in the NSMB games, it kind of fits. Since those are just secondary and less important characters in comparison, just like Daisy. I'm surprised she doesn't use the Yellow Toad instead, really. You also have to think of what makes Toad stand out from everybody else. What unique ability can he do that nobody else can? Reality is, he doesn't do a lot of unique stuff in the Mario series that nobody else does. Waluigi even does more, with his air swimming, so even he sounds more unique in reality. And Captain Toad is obviously a different character, and works very very differently in both designs and abilities. Either it's a matter of his "no jumping" being too important and cannot be removed(Sakurai does make Sonic not unable to truly swim, as he drowns with his animations immediately and takes damage, so he definitely does care about things that are integral to characters. Not to say he can't ignore them, of course), or he had no idea how to balance him and make him fun and unique. Taking a look at the current 11 characters, he had few to work with as is, and even removing the echoes, he had little time to make a ton of unique fun additions.

Basically? Being iconic isn't going to make you stick out alone. That works for making 3rd party options great. But it doesn't build you a moveset. He's having trouble with some movesets because those characters don't have extremely unique abilities that are consistently shown. I've seen the Toad movesets. They're cool. But they're highly fan-made and have nothing to do with his legitimate abilities.


Geno is not a Nintendo representative in that way. He's a 3rd party Square character from a 3rd party game that happens to be a Mario game. Really, people need to remember that if Geno isn't getting in, it means Square wasn't able to come to an agreement with anyone. It's more on Square here. Not Sakurai. Sakurai has made it clear he's tried to get him playable. The fact he couldn't means negotiations fell through. It could potentially be Nintendo, but why are people even blaming Sakurai when he's outright said he wants him playable? He's also spoken nothing on playability for some characters, including Toad. It's possible he didn't really consider him. And I can't blame him either. Toad being an icon doesn't make him a feasible character. Him having abilities that make him fun to play as does. Where's these unique abilities that other characters cannot do? Captain Toad, yes, but that's a different guy(even if it was the same person to begin with, they don't share similar abilities regardless and would have to be different characters to work). Toad could have a Captain costume, but it doesn't change that they're about as similar as Samus and Zero Suit Samus. They share some traits, but have very different abilities, weapons, etc.
Castlevania didn’t get in because of the ballot. It might have had some support (that as a Simon fan I never saw, but whatevs), but it got in because Sakurai loves Castlevania.

And again, if Sakurai can’t come up with movesets for some characters then he’s not good at his job. Dixie and Toad are just examples, but it’s not ‘he can’t come up with a moveset despite them being iconic’, it’s ‘he can’t come up with a moveset despite decades of playable appearances and history’. If he hasn’t considered Toad as playable because he’s a minor character, that’s a failure. If he’s still hung up on the dumb Brawl idea of Dixie as a tag-team, that’s a failure.

Being close minded and unable to see something beyond your original conception of it is not doing a good job. I love Sakurai, but he’s not impervious to ****ting the bed.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Castlevania didn’t get in because of the ballot. It might have had some support (that as a Simon fan I never saw, but whatevs), but it got in because Sakurai loves Castlevania.
Dude, get over it. He outright said he chose Castlevania because of the ballot. Yes, yes it did. If it weren't for that, no, it wouldn't have gotten in. He doesn't add 3rd parties for the sake of it alone. Castlevania is nowhere in the same realm as Sonic and Pac-Man, which were the only two who were iconic enough to outweigh any other major option. MegaMan comes close, though. Sonic also got partially in by fan demand, and suggested by Yuji Naka, but you didn't need to sell how huge of a gaming icon he is due to fan support.

https://twitter.com/AllSourceGaming/status/1074583859440676864 There is absolutely nothing to suggest with the data we have, that he would've chosen Castlevania content otherwise. It was a fan request from the ballot. The only thing he chosen on his own was which characters, not the addition of Casltevania content alone.

And again, if Sakurai can’t come up with movesets for some characters then he’s not good at his job. Dixie and Toad are just examples, but it’s not ‘he can’t come up with a moveset despite them being iconic’, it’s ‘he can’t come up with a moveset despite decades of playable appearances and history’. If he hasn’t considered Toad as playable because he’s a minor character, that’s a failure. If he’s still hung up on the dumb Brawl idea of Dixie as a tag-team, that’s a failure.
That's not a failure in any way. You don't half-ass character ideas. That's just a lame way to throw a character in without actually caring about them. They aren't added for the sake of it alone. Some can be easy additions, but they also never had actual proper ideas for them to make 'em stand out, which is why they are Clones and Echoes. Some actually have real ideas that work well. This is why Dixie is not in yet. Because Dixie isn't the full idea. Besides that, he doesn't change up movesets to any severe degree. If she gets an Echo role, she isn't going to be made different at any point under his design(and other Directors might not bother either, since Echoes are super easy and help with development time). That's not what most fans want. They want a unique and fun character. She's not infamous for just being a part of DKC, but her gimmick from the start is being part of a Tag Team. Diddy isn't really the same thing alone, as he's been heavily shown as separated in many games, and the closest thing he was generally tied to was Donkey Kong. He also was vastly more popular and known, so he was easy to split off. If you even take a look at his moveset, you could easily replace the Monkey Flip with a Switch Command move. Not unlike Pokemon Trainer(though to be fair, we have no idea what their tagteam gameplay was like). But see down below why it's important to make that work instead of giving up on ideas just to pad the roster alone.

You aren't even providing a reason for Toad to be in moveset-wise. Exactly what can you give him that nobody else can have? And I mean nobody else. Sports? Waluigi does it better. Peach and Daisy do that too. Karts? Again, more Mario characters do that. So that means he needs to come up with something that doesn't work for others to actually make him feel interesting. Movesets don't get slapped on outside of clones/echoes anyway. It's because the character still matters, not to say they can't represent more than themselves too(Ness represents all of EarthBound more than just his own abilities, to show off how unique the game is). Mii Fighters are a similar but distinct case. Their true gimmick is that they adapt to any game they're in and work under that game's controls and abilities. Them being an avatar is a bit of a secondary but notable feature. These gimmicks(or mechanics) are what makes non-clone characters interesting and why they get added as is. Being iconic does not build a worthwhile moveset at all. I'm going to be honest here; have you ever built a full moveset, that isn't just throwing moves on? Have you looked into what the character is like, what mechanic they can use to make them stand out? Because if not, then you have no actual understanding about how Smash movesets properly work. In other words, your reasonings don't work because you don't have the actual experience to understand the issue well. Go work on movesets with mechanics and you'll fully see the real picture.

The reason why I fully understand what Sakurai means is I'm taken time to fully make movesets that focuses on mechanics over just filling out the slots. I get it. I've worked on developing games before. I understand it a lot. Things aren't that easy or simple as you're making 'em. Take a step back and look at the full picture instead of acting like he's a failure.

BTW, veterans were also chosen because of the ballot(you honestly think he knew tons of people wanted everybody back without them saying so? Come on, let's be realistic, the ballot made a major impact). So yeah, most of the game is definitely ballot-based. There are obvious characters who weren't(Incineroar and Piranha Plant for sure. Jury's out on Isabelle and Ken. Ridley is a mix of both. King K. Rool, Inklings, all the the other Echoes, Simon(as outright said by him, he only added Castlevania content because of the ballot). I think I covered 'em all now).

Being close minded and unable to see something beyond your original conception of it is not doing a good job. I love Sakurai, but he’s not impervious to ****ting the bed.
That's not being close-minded. That's actually caring about the idea he put forth. He worked hard to try and make it even work in the first place. It sadly didn't, but it just means he didn't give up. You don't just drop good ideas for the sake of it.

Of course, if you'd prefer a ton of characters cut so he'd have enough time to make Dixie playable as a tag team, sure. But that was the other realistic option. It's safe to say he pleased more fans instead of worrying about one or two characters that didn't work out or had no real ideas for. Instead of ****ting on Sakurai, you might do better giving proper ideas how to make Toad playable(I don't mean the Captain version. That one has his own abilities that aren't used by others), since it would make your argument better. You're basically calling him an idiot at times yet provide no actual legitimate reasons why these characters have any moveset to give. So it might help if you provide reasons other than acting like Sakurai is an idiot for not catering to your hard needs, when he's doing a good job of pleasing fans worldwide. Get out of your bubble and remember you're not the only one that matters. Trust me, there's a ton of characters I wish were playable, plausible or not. I just accepted that things aren't that simple and it's not me who he's catering to you.
 

Door Key Pig

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Sakurai implied Chrom and Dark Samus were there too. But it wasn't Simon that placed well on the ballot. It was Castlevania in general(he didn't specify content or character). He knew that the Belmonts were more known than Alucard as well as would sell better overall. Both of them are popular depending the region. That's why he chose them, because of their ballot presence.

Also, if leaks are to be believed, Nintendo didn't really see Isaac as important. I doubt that, to be honest. Him being in a currently inactive franchise just probably made him low priority and that was that. Which fits the current Sakurai narrative/what he's said so far.
Ooh, what Isaac slamming leaks are there???
 

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Ooh, what Isaac slamming leaks are there???
It was an old one among the Issac thread. Where it noted Isaac was not remotely considered for playable, and that Nintendo was surprised Isaac was even that popularly requested.

There's no credibility to it, though.
 

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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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This is either the silent majority, or Sakurai not needing the ballot to know how popular Isabelle is. I have a feeling Pichu is also a silent majority thing, comparing the like/dislike ratio on these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZD89yfBCyE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYe8HpzYebg
Nah, Pichu is an extremely popular Pokemon. He's Gen II's mascot. That's not even questionable at this point.

Isabelle might be a silent majority. Though to be honest, there's no questioning she's a lot more mixed than people think. To be honest, if it weren't for the fact she was a semi-clone and brought new items in, she wouldn't have been worth adding. It was important to show off all the aspects of AC, which Villager failed to do. She was just the only character popular enough to justify this. She's arguably a shill pick, and that's not really wrong either, but it wasn't a bad idea to pick the latest mascot. She would've been awful as an Echo though(not that she could be one, but you could've just added any regular Villager from the series alone instead if that's all you wanted to do). Thankfully she brings actual unique stuff, and her correct personality too.
 
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